![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 30. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sar on February 14, 2002, at 15:30:04
i'd thought that i'd take a break for awhile, but once again i must ask some advice...(and i apologise for not being able, for the time being, to contribute much to other people's threads)
so, i got this new retail job, very pleasant and in an upscale neighborhood, and a middle-aged man (more than twice my age) and i got to talking. he asked if i babysit--"we pay our babysitters very well"--and i said that i hadn't for awhile but sure, why not.
so he calls later to set up the babysitting plans, then tells me that he needs a receptionist for the company he owns with his wife. would i like to be their new receptionist? i warn them that i've never done this type of work before, he says it doesn't matter, and before i know it, he's working on my finances with me (i'm jumping at jobs all over the place because i am, for all practical purposes, broke). "well," he says, "my wife and i need a new massage therapist. can you do that?" by this time my heart is pumping--oh no, i'm dealing with a skeeve, i think--"well, don't you want a *professional*?" i ask. "i'm no masseuse."
"it doesn't matter," he says. "this CMT stuff is a bunch of crap. anyone can be a good masseuse. besides, all those CMT's look like earth mothers, and you're all sweet and cute."
hmmm, more skeeviness, eh?
i talk to my older female friend (also twice my age) about the situation; she says, "it sounds like he thinks you just fell off the turnip truck, you've got to make sure he knows you're not down for anything weird..." and i agreed. i'm opportunistic. i'm poor. right now i'm trying to figure out if it's worth dancing around this poor rich bastard for the money he's paying me (fairly good) and the things he wants to give me (!!!)--a bicycle, a TV, a gift certificate to a very swank salon.
just by writing this i know it sounds as if i just fell off the turnip truck, i'm just wondering if--i don't know...why does this happen? it was actually the guy's wife who interviewed me, and they discussed how i'd get to work without a car. this is how much interest they were taking in me--discussing mileage, financing a car loan, bus skeds, everything.
"Well honey, can she borrow your bike?" Mr. Black Leather Jacket and dark shades asks his frazzled, much younger wife.
"Look, J___, the bike is a piece of crap." she looks pissed.
"And she's going to be babysitting the kids, too," Black Leather tells her later.
she doesn't look happy, but she's kind to me, and hires me on the spot.
Mr. Black Sports Car drives me home and gives me his cell # "in case you feel like reaching out and touching someone." all of these innuendoes that i just laugh off or ignore, when my heart just wants to say "Look fuckface, if you wanna hire me, FINE, i'll work for the good money you want to pay me, i'll even take your gifts! but i've got no price! so quit being all skeevy and shit and drop it with the ha-ha innuendoes that smell of Wilson leather!"
instead i say "bye, thank you," and go into my apartment, and he roars off in the shiny car like the bad-ass he is.
this man is nearly 60.
is it *possible* to navigate a situation like this to my advantage? *are* there any free lunches, or is the salon certificate so that he can see my bony waxed legs or whatever the hell else rituals they do there?
any opinions greatly appreciated. i mean, the guy seems kind of sleazy, but he's also held out a hand--which i need badly--as far as professions/promises to help me get a bunch of stuff i need. i'm not gonna have sex with Mr. Old-Stud, *nothing close,* but do guys like this exist? ones that wanna just give away money for the hell of it?
Posted by IsoM on February 14, 2002, at 16:56:00
In reply to i can't stay away!, posted by sar on February 14, 2002, at 15:30:04
Sar, I'm not real street savvy as I avoid things like that like the plague, but I'm also real upfront. Blunt even.
It would be my nature to say outright to him, "sure, there's lots in it for me, but just what do you think you're going to get out of it'
cause if it's more than what the contract says, I'll phone the cops in a drop!"Maybe that's why so many men back down from me right away. The ones that don't back down, don't come on to me. I either scare men or they think I'm like a sweet sister or mother instead.
My god! that guy sounds so smarmy & so does his wife. What are they interested in? Threesomes?
Posted by judy1 on February 14, 2002, at 17:53:55
In reply to i can't stay away!, posted by sar on February 14, 2002, at 15:30:04
When I was in my 20's and single and attractive, I always seemed to attract men like the one you described. I, too, would wait for the other shoe to drop- but except for one they (maybe 4 in all) simply enjoyed my very hypomanic company. I accepted gifts because I worked hard (also a receptionist at 1 point!), but usually a bartender. I think they felt good helping someone who obviously needed it, and I never went to bed with any. So I guess my advice is to enjoy it, don't feel guilty, and if you're uncomfortable at any point- just quit. From judy, who is still fat from having a baby but can remember the good old days (these are better)
Posted by Mr. Scott on February 14, 2002, at 20:39:33
In reply to i can't stay away!, posted by sar on February 14, 2002, at 15:30:04
I would split like a fat man's pants unless you're ready to get busy with grandad!
The way you describe it sounds a bit more than some guy being helpful. But then again some would call me cynical and jaded. Masseuse?
Scott
Posted by Reneeb on February 14, 2002, at 20:49:57
In reply to Man's Opinion » sar, posted by Mr. Scott on February 14, 2002, at 20:39:33
>
> Scott, You have such a way with words- LOL
Renee
Posted by ST on February 15, 2002, at 6:34:00
In reply to Re: Man's Opinion » Mr. Scott, posted by Reneeb on February 14, 2002, at 20:49:57
Sar,
Please be careful. You're going to be in this guy's home...you've been in his car? I just think no matter how much he helps you, it's not worth the price of you always having to be on your toes, on your guard, waiting for the other shoe to drop. I, too, have been laughably, pathetically broke before and have been tempted by gifts and promises. IsoM is right! Be blunt and ask: "What's in it for you?" Because everyone does something to receive in return. Maybe he IS getting the satisfaction of helping someone in return.
If you want to take these jobs, I would insist on an informal contract of sorts. Ask him, point blank, why he's being so nice. Make it clear that you have no intention of offering him anything beyond a working relationship. If you make this clear in the beginning, he can never pull the "well-why-else-do-you-think-I've-been-doing-all-this-for-you-and-why-won't-you-have-sex-with-me" act.
Sorry if I sound bitter. I've seen some naive friends get sucked in to bad situations. I'm an actress, my friends are actresses...and you get weird older men thinking you'll be delighted at their help while they expect a bl*w j*b in return.
Be careful and keep us posted!!
Sarah
Posted by trouble on February 15, 2002, at 11:45:17
In reply to i can't stay away!, posted by sar on February 14, 2002, at 15:30:04
Hey Sar,
From the first thread of yours I saw I got the impression that you are very knowing. I have a lot of confidence in your streetwise gut instincts.
These big bad wolf types crack me up. Yes, this couple sounds whack but chances are they don't know who they're toying with, and my advice is to let them in on your knowing. Don't be innocent. Talk to them like you talk to us and see if they're still interested in playing Santa Claus to your little red riding hood.
They sound sleazy to me, but that doesn't make them dangerous. But please be careful and keep us posted.trouble
> so, i got this new retail job, very pleasant and in an upscale neighborhood, and a middle-aged man (more than twice my age) and i got to talking. he asked if i babysit--"we pay our babysitters very well"--and i said that i hadn't for awhile but sure, why not.
>
> so he calls later to set up the babysitting plans, then tells me that he needs a receptionist for the company he owns with his wife. would i like to be their new receptionist? i warn them that i've never done this type of work before, he says it doesn't matter, and before i know it, he's working on my finances with me (i'm jumping at jobs all over the place because i am, for all practical purposes, broke). "well," he says, "my wife and i need a new massage therapist. can you do that?" by this time my heart is pumping--oh no, i'm dealing with a skeeve, i think--"well, don't you want a *professional*?" i ask. "i'm no masseuse."
>
> "it doesn't matter," he says. "this CMT stuff is a bunch of crap. anyone can be a good masseuse. besides, all those CMT's look like earth mothers, and you're all sweet and cute."
>
> hmmm, more skeeviness, eh?
>
> i talk to my older female friend (also twice my age) about the situation; she says, "it sounds like he thinks you just fell off the turnip truck, you've got to make sure he knows you're not down for anything weird..." and i agreed. i'm opportunistic. i'm poor. right now i'm trying to figure out if it's worth dancing around this poor rich bastard for the money he's paying me (fairly good) and the things he wants to give me (!!!)--a bicycle, a TV, a gift certificate to a very swank salon.
>
> just by writing this i know it sounds as if i just fell off the turnip truck, i'm just wondering if--i don't know...why does this happen? it was actually the guy's wife who interviewed me, and they discussed how i'd get to work without a car. this is how much interest they were taking in me--discussing mileage, financing a car loan, bus skeds, everything.
>
> "Well honey, can she borrow your bike?" Mr. Black Leather Jacket and dark shades asks his frazzled, much younger wife.
>
> "Look, J___, the bike is a piece of crap." she looks pissed.
>
> "And she's going to be babysitting the kids, too," Black Leather tells her later.
>
> she doesn't look happy, but she's kind to me, and hires me on the spot.
>
> Mr. Black Sports Car drives me home and gives me his cell # "in case you feel like reaching out and touching someone." all of these innuendoes that i just laugh off or ignore, when my heart just wants to say "Look fuckface, if you wanna hire me, FINE, i'll work for the good money you want to pay me, i'll even take your gifts! but i've got no price! so quit being all skeevy and shit and drop it with the ha-ha innuendoes that smell of Wilson leather!"
>
> instead i say "bye, thank you," and go into my apartment, and he roars off in the shiny car like the bad-ass he is.
>
> this man is nearly 60.
>
> is it *possible* to navigate a situation like this to my advantage? *are* there any free lunches, or is the salon certificate so that he can see my bony waxed legs or whatever the hell else rituals they do there?
>
> any opinions greatly appreciated. i mean, the guy seems kind of sleazy, but he's also held out a hand--which i need badly--as far as professions/promises to help me get a bunch of stuff i need. i'm not gonna have sex with Mr. Old-Stud, *nothing close,* but do guys like this exist? ones that wanna just give away money for the hell of it?
Posted by sar on February 15, 2002, at 17:09:26
In reply to i can't stay away!, posted by sar on February 14, 2002, at 15:30:04
thanks for all of the responses...both the cautionary ones, and Judy's encouraging posts that sometimes this can turn out positively. i'll be on my toes...
ps to Judy--congrats on the baby! i'm so proud of you! kiss little Gabrielle for me...
Posted by Lini on February 16, 2002, at 8:43:41
In reply to Re: i can't stay away!, posted by sar on February 15, 2002, at 17:09:26
one last thing - whatever you decide to do,carry mace!
Posted by noa on February 18, 2002, at 15:02:12
In reply to Re: i can't stay away! » sar, posted by judy1 on February 14, 2002, at 17:53:55
Does sound like they're grooming you for a threesome.
Be very careful. These people sound skeevy allright. I'm afraid that if you play along but try to avoid whatever it is they want from you, you might just encounter their rage.
Also, Sar, to be blunt, the shallow giving thing--seems kind of reminiscent of your parents.
Warning bells are going off for me on your behalf--that at the very least it is not an emotioanly healthy situation for you!!
You should be trying to surround yourself with people who DON'T play games.
Posted by Gracie2 on February 24, 2002, at 1:25:59
In reply to i can't stay away!, posted by sar on February 14, 2002, at 15:30:04
NO NO NO.
The alarm bells must be shrieking in your pysche.
A guy who moves in like this is, in my long and practical experience, a sleeze. I detect mid-life crisis, a painful and debilitating experience. Their usual ploy is to move in, start with the flowers and the cards and the clandastine lunches and secret meetings. To invite this into your life is a recipe for heart-ache. He wines and dines and send flowers and expensive gifts. Once you are hooked , he starts with the usual promises to leave his wife and family someday, whcih rarely happens. He keeps you twisting like a fish on a hook, throwing you tidbits of jewelry
and roses and candies to keep your interested, down-playing the relationship he has with his family and often bouying you with promises, again, to leave his wife...someday, as soon as the financial situation is straightened out, as soon as his kids are grown, as soon as he can afford to give you the life you live. In the meantime, you live a life of quiet desperation...waiting by the phone, waiting for the mailman in case there is a letter from him with all his false assurances, hating yourself at night for being an adultress. Your self-esteem plummets and you're plaqued by guilt and self-doubt. It's a nasty, self-defeating way to live.I dispise adultery.
-Gracie
Posted by trouble on February 24, 2002, at 10:30:29
In reply to Re: i can't stay away!, posted by Gracie2 on February 24, 2002, at 1:25:59
> NO NO NO.
> The alarm bells must be shrieking in your pysche.
> A guy who moves in like this is, in my long and practical experience, a sleeze. I detect mid-life crisis, a painful and debilitating experience. Their usual ploy is to move in, start with the flowers and the cards and the clandastine lunches and secret meetings. To invite this into your life is a recipe for heart-ache. He wines and dines and send flowers and expensive gifts. Once you are hooked , he starts with the usual promises to leave his wife and family someday, whcih rarely happens. He keeps you twisting like a fish on a hook, throwing you tidbits of jewelry
> and roses and candies to keep your interested, down-playing the relationship he has with his family and often bouying you with promises, again, to leave his wife...someday, as soon as the financial situation is straightened out, as soon as his kids are grown, as soon as he can afford to give you the life you live. In the meantime, you live a life of quiet desperation...waiting by the phone, waiting for the mailman in case there is a letter from him with all his false assurances, hating yourself at night for being an adultress. Your self-esteem plummets and you're plaqued by guilt and self-doubt. It's a nasty, self-defeating way to live.
>
> I dispise adultery.
> -GracieHi Gracie,
What makesya say that?
trouble
Posted by Gracie2 on February 24, 2002, at 17:32:18
In reply to Re: i can't stay away!, posted by trouble on February 24, 2002, at 10:30:29
You devil you. If I found out that my husband was sleeping around, I'd wait until he was asleep and super-glue his privates to his leg.
When I was a kid, my best friend had an affair with an older married man. She was 14 and he was 29. Since my girlfriend and I both worked for this man delivering papers, I was kind of caught up in the middle of it. I was always telling the wife some lie or other to cover up for the lovers, who were off somewhere in a cheap hotel or back of the delivery van. I liked the wife and it made me feel like dirt to constantly be telling her these whopping lies.
The wife found out anyway. She was kind of suspicious all along until she found my friend's bra under the car seat- and then of course she knew for sure.
In one never-to-be-forgotten moment, I dropped my friend off near her boyfriend's house, where he was supposed to pick her up. As soon as his car appeared, I looked in the rearview mirror and saw his wife running down the street towards us. Mr. Adultery locked his doors, so the wife threw herself onto the hood, shouting obscenities and demanding to be let in. While she was banging on the windshield, her husband turned on the windshield-washing spray and the wipers. When she climbed down from the roof of the car, crying and rubbing her eyes, her husband drove off with his 14-year-old girlfriend.
I stood there with my mouth hanging open like a fish. I had never seen such cruelty and disregard
for anothers' feelings. What a pig.
Enough said-
Gracie
Posted by Reneeb on February 24, 2002, at 18:28:35
In reply to Trouble, posted by Gracie2 on February 24, 2002, at 17:32:18
>
Gracie, Having already gone thru a divorce myself Nothing surprises me anymore. When someone wants out they can be very cruel. (I didn't want to say men because women can be just as cruel).
Renee
Posted by sar on February 25, 2002, at 20:08:26
In reply to i can't stay away!, posted by sar on February 14, 2002, at 15:30:04
if your eyes and stomach are overly sensitive to soft-core sleaze, please shut this window and quietly scroll down to the next thread.
so i turned down the finance job (transportation too complicated, money not worth the grunt work) but Mr. Leather still wanted me to babysit--which i did, for his 2 children, who are really very lovely. i had a blast with them, and he kind of overpaid me. (based on the couple's cars and home decorations, they seem like the type who like to throw money around--especially him. of course.)
ah hah--then the call for "massage therapy." i gave the (rich) poor bastard a massage (he wore a towel) for an hour and was paid $100--a boon for me, really, because all i had to do was manipulate his fleshy body for awhile as i tried to remember massage techniques. the skeeviness came when he wanted to turn around and get a chest rub, which i wouldn't do.
several days later, Mr. Massage was ready for another rubdown, and we had a long conversation in which he explained to me that he has been "at half-mast" for awhile, hasn't had sex since his baby was born--basically he can't get it up, and apparently he can't mix viagra with the other meds he's on (coumidin, etc) (i'm no pharmacologist, so i know nothing of this stuff). my part in all of this, he explained, was to serve as an "aphrodisiac," and that he wanted to be teased.
so. i'm $200 short on rent and haven't paid a bill in months, so what to i do? walk into the cool bright house again, onto the velveteen duvet, and allow him to lie naked without the towel--and i did "tease" him...but basically--watch out, folks--was there to witness him masturbate.
and then i got $150 in thirty minutes, plus 2 glasses merlot to get through the whole thing.
i hate adultery too. i'd be feckin pissed if my boyfriend/husband were doing something like this! money is the carrot, though--depression has made it difficult for me to work, and Celexa keeps me in bed most days (seeing pdoc in 3 days to change meds).
i don't want to be engaged to this guy, would never wait by the phone for him--hell, for awhile he was calling me 3 times a day--i just see that thick carpet, the pool, the hills, everything cool and marble, the pictures of him with celebrities--and the way he can just peel twenties right off a roll and hand them over.
"if this is going to cause any psychological trauma to you, then you shouldn't do it," he said to me. "life's too short. if we can do what we agreed upon--a simple cash-and-carry, with no hard feelings, i think it'll work."
there is a library clock ticking right in my ear. i write this to all of you, all you wonderful people that i've never met but have been helping me for so long, because i can. PSB is a diary of sorts...i walk down the street looking at my feet, my hair in a conservative low ponytail, i look "innocent," they say--and i think, "I am a prostitute, I am a prostitute." and it doesn't register.
Posted by trouble on February 26, 2002, at 3:15:51
In reply to riding the turnip truck, posted by sar on February 25, 2002, at 20:08:26
Hey Sar,
If it's not registering then maybe it's not time to be calling yourself denigrating names. You need perspective, dear.
If you're already utilizing the following resources then you're in good supportive hands, if not, then it's important that you check them out.
COYOTE (Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics)
First Union of sex workers; Works for the rights of all sex workers, also provides assistance for those wishing to get out of the biz.2269 Chestnut St. #452
SF, CA 94123-2607
415-435-7950
http://www.bayswan.orgBOOKs:
Whores and Other Feminists by Jill Nagle
Haven't read it but it received rave reviews on Amazon, also had a cheap used copy.Live Sex Acts: Women Performing Erotic Labor
by Wendy Chapkis-
50 interviews w/ men and women in U.S. and Netherlands. scholarly, political, kind of redundant but worthwhile if bought used.Anything by Annie Sprinkle, if you only look for one resource I recmd this woman. Type name in keyword and it will take you to links.
Also, here's one you can get at the public library, it's short story fiction, not necessarily about sex work, but it pertains to the kind of life you're leading and I enjoyed it tremendously.
BAD BEHAVIOR by Mary Gaitskill, came out in the late '80s.
I performed a scene from it in a college Oral Interpretation of Literature class and a fellow student complained about the filth and pornographic mind-set I generally brought to school so I threw a chair at him. My professor, a Dr. Bob type character didn't flinch or skip a beat but said evenly that no, he believed trouble's choice of material had substantial literary merit. I felt so guilty he didn't yell at me I never acted out in class again, the end.But how's by you, Sar?
Posted by trouble on February 26, 2002, at 3:36:43
In reply to Re: riding the turnip truck, posted by trouble on February 26, 2002, at 3:15:51
Posted by sar on February 26, 2002, at 12:47:28
In reply to you and I live in the same city, Sar. Hmmmm... (nm), posted by trouble on February 26, 2002, at 3:36:43
Turnip Truck City, or A-town?
Posted by sar on February 26, 2002, at 14:33:03
In reply to Re: riding the turnip truck, posted by trouble on February 26, 2002, at 3:15:51
> BAD BEHAVIOR by Mary Gaitskill, came out in the late '80s.
> I performed a scene from it in a college Oral Interpretation of Literature class and a fellow student complained about the filth and pornographic mind-set I generally brought to school so I threw a chair at him. My professor, a Dr. Bob type character didn't flinch or skip a beat but said evenly that no, he believed trouble's choice of material had substantial literary merit. I felt so guilty he didn't yell at me I never acted out in class again, the end.
>
> But how's by you, Sar?i think that's badass! that made me laugh. i don't know about the chair-throwing stuff, but the prof sounds cool. the guy who protested against you sounds like a puritanical little snot.
anyway--thank you for the resources. i've heard of Annie Sprinkle, just never checked out her stuff, but i will. a couple of years back i saw an indie film called *Naked Girls Unite* or somesuch (name may be a little wrong); it was a documentary made by a stripper about forming a strippers' union over in San Fran. as a former stripper, i was psyched to see the movie, and the filmmaker was even there for a Q & A at the end...but ultimately, i was disappointed. the movie was entertaining, but i didn't like this sex workers' stuff...it left a bad taste in my mouth...i don't want to be part of the "industry," i suppose...i don't want to be a bona fide "sex worker," it's just that the money and opportunities are so wildly available that it makes my head spin. i like easy money--and what's that cliche? i'm living a champagne diet on a beer budget. used to a certain standard of living, i suppose.
it's the oldest profession, they say, and i think it should be legal--hell, these are our bodies--i just can't see justifying the okayness of it in my mind and heart. it seems like a cold job to be DONE. sit there and watch the guy jerk off. cash and carry. go.
it's hard to say what i feel about the wife...she probably has her suspicions, she's like his fourth wife or something, and he has that Old Womanizer look about him. she's probably resigned and sticks around to take care of the kids. these are only my guesses.
it's not like i wanna go sit at the barstool at the Mustang Ranch--i just couldn't turn down the money at a time where i can barely scrape the rent and dread checking the mail (bills bills bills).
it seems like one of those private things that i wish we could be honest about, but it just doesn't seem possible...how could i say to my boyfriend, "i can't go for lunch on tuesday, i've got to watch Mr. Richie Rich jerk his chain." ugh!
it seems one of those unspoken things...it would be interesting to get a male perspective here...i'm young and female...*i* can't really understand why men pay for this type of stuff, and if any of you have, i'd like to hear why.
trouble, what do you think of it? ethically, i mean.
Posted by Gracie2 on February 26, 2002, at 17:27:46
In reply to Re: riding the turnip truck, posted by sar on February 26, 2002, at 14:33:03
Sar-
Don't call yourself a prostitute. Although you accepted money to watch him masturbate, I assume you did not join in. The problem here is that this man is slowly breaking down your defenses in the time-honored fashion of a real pimp. Once you cross a certain boundary - like watching this sleeze jerk off - he will be certain to keep pushing you even farther; maybe a little kissing at first, followed by some groping, and the money incentive may be enough to make you override your morals completely in the end. You could end up having sex with him, then his friends, then his dog, or God knows what.I understand what it is like to be poor and desperate for money, I really do. Once I spent an entire week living on just a box of Bisquik, sleeping in my winter coat and cooking on a hotplate because the gas had been turned off.
But surely you want to survive with your self-esteem intact. You should tell this man, in no uncertain terms, that you wish to keep your relationship with him strictly professional. Be polite but firm. As a young woman, you deserve much better than a 60-year-old married man.
If worse comes to worse and you do have sex with this person, please use protection. In fact, I would insist that he wears two condoms. Otherwise you may be risking pregnancy (and let's see how long this generous person would stick around if you became pregnant), along with a host of STDs -
AIDS, herpes, syphilis, genital warts, and creepy-crawlies like crabs or lice. Besides, there is always the danger of being discovered by an armed and furious wife. Hell hath no fury....Be careful. Be smart.
-Gracie
Posted by trouble on February 27, 2002, at 1:46:24
In reply to Re: riding the turnip truck, posted by sar on February 26, 2002, at 14:33:03
Gracious Sar! What do I think of it? I think it's screwed up, but no more screwed up than selling your soul to a corporation that pretends you're all family then obliterates your hopes and dreams on a whim. At least a sex worker knows s/he's being screwed. But are these the only two options in life?
Unlike a lot of my friends I don't have a solid pro or anti stance on sex work...but I am convinced that women who trade on their sexuality for subsistance were victimized during childhood, and I am against letting our victimizers map out our life strategies. I think that's weak, and at the same time unavoidable. the courageous thing is to challenge your habits and characterological pollution, even while knowing how hard and thankless and ultimately flawed your efforts will be. I just cannot the people who wrecked me win.
I have such hostitility toward men that I've never considered a life of providing pleasure to them for any amount of money. Plus I was raised Catholic, more or less, and I've got those sex hang-ups. I'm a good girl.
I do relate to the sex victim's adult need to have sexual power over men, I did that in my youth by being a world class prick tease, if I say so myself. The power thing, taking control of a situation over which we had no control during our sexual development seems huge to me, and IMO a big part of what drives women into this work. You do have the power, anyone who tells you the man has the power since he's giving you money is full of shit.
The one who satisfies always has the power. There'd be nothing to satisfy if not for the man's need, ergo , he's in the weaker position, by virtue of his dependency. They know this of course, which explains their raping, choking and killing of prostitutes, if not in actuality, well suffice to say I'm grateful that we are spared a direct line into their fantasy life when they're having sex. Husbands do it too, I'm not singling out tricks.My real concern though is what it does to the inner life of a sex worker to operate in this society. Talk about stigma. So you're poor, female, mentally ill and a whore too. That's a lot of cultural nastiness, it's too much to be warded off on a consistent day to day basis. I think that wearing down is the most insidious and longterm damaging of all.
It would be nice if prostitutes were considered courtesans, keepers of secrets, seductresses and teachers of the sexual delights. If we lived in a world like that I'd be a lot less concerned about the life. But when we have men trying to choke women w/ their cocks and screaming at them to drink it down bitch, no something's fundamentally wrong w/ that, rotten to the core.Anyway this may not have answered your question about ethics, but that's not the place I come from regarding this issue. Maybe someone else has something to offer on that aspect.
Any takers?
trouble
Posted by sar on March 2, 2002, at 15:25:01
In reply to Re: riding the turnip truck, posted by Gracie2 on February 26, 2002, at 17:27:46
>
> I understand what it is like to be poor and desperate for money, I really do. Once I spent an entire week living on just a box of Bisquik, sleeping in my winter coat and cooking on a hotplate because the gas had been turned off.
dear Gracie,thanks for understanding...i'm trying to avoid being that poor...i'm especially touched that you responded because you are married and so wholeheartedly against adultery...and here i am, the adultress!
i did do more. rent was due.
>
> If worse comes to worse and you do have sex with this person, please use protection. In fact, I would insist that he wears two condoms. Otherwise you may be risking pregnancy (and let's see how long this generous person would stick around if you became pregnant), along with a host of STDs -
> AIDS, herpes, syphilis, genital warts, and creepy-crawlies like crabs or lice. Besides, there is always the danger of being discovered by an armed and furious wife. Hell hath no fury....
a note on 2 condoms (not that i would EVER have sex with this man) (NO! WAY!)--using 2 produces more friction, making them more likely to break. always best to stick with one. but i'm against abortion (just for myself) and would never *chance* giving birth to a half-sleaze baby.my self-esteem is still intact, but it's been only 24 hours now...
i actually find this arrangement much less demeaning than being a stripper, along with being more economical.
he'll soon tire of me when he realises sex is out of the equation, but for now i'm just tryna fight financial fires...
love,
sar
Posted by sar on March 2, 2002, at 15:38:50
In reply to Re: riding the turnip truck, posted by trouble on February 27, 2002, at 1:46:24
trouble,
your post was amazing. i'm feeling too inferior to answer it right now, it was so insightful and well-written. may i ask how old you are?
this guy is sleazy but nice...i do not understand the male psyche, though...i wish we did have a direct line into their fantasy lives, 'cos i'm sure as hell curious.
as i wrote to Gracie, i find this private exchange of favors much less demeaning than jobs officially in "the industry"...i look at pornography when i happen across it (magazines at male friends' houses) and am baffled everytime by how vapid the women look, not because they really are that way, but because that's just another thing in the line-up: okay, girls, tits, ass, spread those legs and grin like a dummy!
i spoke with an older female friend about this--she is a very respectable and wonderful nurse who has somewhat adopted me in the spiritual sense (she nursed me back to health after i took an overdose; she cried openly)...she's in her fifties and said, laughing, that if she had her youth back she'd take these fools for all they're worth. i guess she agreed with you--that we have the power.
he is also the one that satisfies though--with stacks of twenties...i'm not yet sure if i've figured out the dynamic...
please post any more illuminating thoughts!
love,
sar
Posted by ambrosialdelight on March 3, 2002, at 12:58:20
In reply to Re: riding the turnip truck...trouble, posted by sar on March 2, 2002, at 15:38:50
Two things sar-
1) I don't think you are a prostitute, otherwise that definition would include almost all our "give and take" interactions in one way or another, some of us just ask for more whatever form the payment takes, and we pay for it too in many ways. It probably just feels odd that money is being exchanged directly. My opinion (and I am no expert so anyone can disagree) is that becomes prostitution when you are physically repulsed but do it anyway. I mean really physically repulsed, not just thinking "This is wrong". So far I don't see a reason to be repulsed- but I guess that's a personal matter.
2) In the spirit of "if you have to eat a toad, choose a juicy one", I'll say that you need to get more money, maybe you should ask for the equivalent of one or two month's rent each time. and then raise your "fee" randomly at whim by random amounts - especially amounts that don't make sense like $39.94 or a penny. Take payment in advance, not after the act. Actually maybe you should take payment before you even go over. How about investing in a credit card billing system (you may need this for what I suggest later in this posting). And think about the many ways you could use credit card recipts! He thinks he can control you with money (a lot of wealthy guys I've dated and dumped tried this in a subtle way). Why not take the carrot from him and spank him with it. This may also cool down his ardor and he may employ the "free" services of his wife. He could never pay you enough for your services, but if you're in a position where you have to do it, why not make it really worth your while? Take the upper hand, own your decisions and feel no guilt, you are a rational being. Maybe you could teach others to help their loved ones this way instead of doing it yourself, you still get paid and everyone comes out happy (remember credit card billing?), plus you'd be making a huge positive contribution to society as well. I am not joking, many women (and probably gay men) would be eager to learn such stuff. I know I'd pay for a lesson, just to improve my skills, and I don't even have someone to use them on, can you imagine how many people need to spice up their marriages, your Mr. Massage being one of them? Oh I wish I were you, I would have so much fun with Mr. Massage, I'd play with his mind like Play-do, he would be twisted around three ways south of Sunday before I was done.
Oh one more thing- go to the library and check out some psychology books, some books on power games and learn to play chess.
Posted by ambrosialdelight on March 3, 2002, at 21:03:11
In reply to Re: riding the turnip truck, posted by trouble on February 27, 2002, at 1:46:24
Amazing trouble, would like to hear more on the part about "not singling out tricks", so many things are resonating, and on my part it doesn't have to do with sexual abuse in childhood, at least I think it doesn't, in adulthood? I don't know.
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