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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 17, 2012, at 21:23:00
In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 17, 2012, at 19:27:22
Emmanuel, Just out of curiosity, I have to ask, if you believe in a higher power, why not God?
Cyndi
Posted by zazenducke on May 18, 2012, at 7:46:52
In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 17, 2012, at 19:27:22
You do know "Emmanuel" means "God is with us" ?
Posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 18, 2012, at 8:05:21
In reply to Re: There is always hope » emmanuel98, posted by zazenducke on May 18, 2012, at 7:46:52
No, I didn't know but I like it. Cyndi
Posted by zazenducke on May 18, 2012, at 8:19:19
In reply to Re: There is always hope » zazenducke, posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 18, 2012, at 8:05:21
I like it too :) One of my favorite Christmas carols is O Come O Come Emmanuel.
Posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 18, 2012, at 8:58:14
In reply to Re: There is always hope » Cyndi Michelle, posted by zazenducke on May 18, 2012, at 8:19:19
lol
Posted by emmanuel98 on May 18, 2012, at 19:47:33
In reply to Re: There is always hope » zazenducke, posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 18, 2012, at 8:58:14
I associate god with being slapped to get on my knees and pray, to being forced to listen to fire and brimstone sermons from as young an age as I can remember, with right wing fundamentalist busy-bodies. God to me means organized religion and I hate organized religion, though I will sometimes attend a unitarian service.
Posted by Phillipa on May 18, 2012, at 21:04:49
In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 18, 2012, at 19:47:33
I'm with you on that I call myself spirtitual. Phillipa
Posted by sleepygirl2 on May 18, 2012, at 23:41:42
In reply to Re: There is always hope » emmanuel98, posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2012, at 20:17:18
There's a song version of that prayer. We used to sing it in school... It's one of the few prayers I can appreciate.
Posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 19, 2012, at 7:50:21
In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 18, 2012, at 19:47:33
I see. An interesting point of view.
Posted by Dinah on May 20, 2012, at 14:37:53
In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 18, 2012, at 19:47:33
I read a book about the ten commandments that makes the case that "Thou shall not take the Lord's name in vain" isn't all about cursing. That it refers to people who do evil in God's name. Which makes sense to me....
You're describing the acts of man, and I daresay that God wouldn't be too happy with those who caused such an association in your mind. I know I'm angry about it.
My experiences with religion were largely positive. Growing up Mormon did wonderful things for my sense of self worth and self respect. I grew up with a bone deep understanding that God loves me, as he loves all his children. That what I did mattered to God.
The difference between my experiences of religion and yours didn't derive from God. The difference was man. People act out their own personalities and issues as much in church as they do anywhere else.
Posted by Cyndi Michelle on May 20, 2012, at 19:27:47
In reply to Re: There is always hope » emmanuel98, posted by Dinah on May 20, 2012, at 14:37:53
Dinah, very well said. I agree, Cyndi
Posted by emmanuel98 on May 21, 2012, at 21:00:33
In reply to Re: There is always hope » emmanuel98, posted by Dinah on May 20, 2012, at 14:37:53
Yes, but you're assuming the term god has some meaning for me, that I have some belief in a loving entity who looks out for me. I don't. I never have. I believe in the good will of other people. I believe we can add to that good will or detract from it based on our own actions. I find that the only organized religion that speaks to me at all is Buddhism and Buddhism has no real belief in a god. I once asked a Buddhist friend of mine (we were talking about AA's emphasis on finding a higher power), What if I could make Gene (a crazy, difficult guy we knew) my higher power? He said then you'd be a saint. You'd be Mother Theresa.
I like that song, what if god was one of us, just a slob like one of us, just a stranger on a bus, trying to make his way home. To me that means, not that god is some kind of supreme being disguised as a stranger on a bus, but that the slob on the bus is as godlike as me and has the right to as much grace and light and dignity as I have.
> I read a book about the ten commandments that makes the case that "Thou shall not take the Lord's name in vain" isn't all about cursing. That it refers to people who do evil in God's name. Which makes sense to me....
>
> You're describing the acts of man, and I daresay that God wouldn't be too happy with those who caused such an association in your mind. I know I'm angry about it.
>
> My experiences with religion were largely positive. Growing up Mormon did wonderful things for my sense of self worth and self respect. I grew up with a bone deep understanding that God loves me, as he loves all his children. That what I did mattered to God.
>
> The difference between my experiences of religion and yours didn't derive from God. The difference was man. People act out their own personalities and issues as much in church as they do anywhere else.
Posted by Dinah on May 22, 2012, at 9:16:10
In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 21, 2012, at 21:00:33
That's fine with me. People have different beliefs. But what you said seemed to go beyond indifference.
"I associate god with being slapped to get on my knees and pray, to being forced to listen to fire and brimstone sermons from as young an age as I can remember, with right wing fundamentalist busy-bodies. God to me means organized religion and I hate organized religion, though I will sometimes attend a unitarian service. "
I love God. It wouldn't have felt right to say nothing, you know? When God was being associated with the bad works of man? Wouldn't you say something should someone say something like that about analysis or therapy or something you felt strongly about as a positive influence in your life?
Posted by Willful on May 22, 2012, at 10:27:50
In reply to Re: There is always hope » emmanuel98, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2012, at 9:16:10
I think it's great if people find deep comfort in facing life from the idea of god.
But that idea has no meaning in my life. I was brought up without religious training or experiences, and while I have a deep emotional response to the beauty or feeling evoked in temples or synagogues and by certain rituals, I also have that feeling when I hear certain music, or see a beautiful painting or great movie.
For me, spirituality is an emotion, a heightened state of mind, but it doesn't flow from anything beyond this world, any being that's all-powerful, all-knowing, who loves or doesn't love me or knows or doesn't know me. I don't believe life was created by anything but physical forces, or that our sense of right and wrong or of justice depends on their being some sort of judge or commander outside of the human realm.
I have beliefs that I hold strongly about what's right and wrong-- or just-- just as much as anyone who is religious. I deeply object to those who argue that we need religion to have morality-- nor do I think "god" cares how we dress, how often we bow down, or give thanks to him, that there are god-given rules about abortion, respect for others, the role of women etc. Life and experiences, good and bad, are what we have to be thankful for-- the goodness and kindness of others, and beauty around us, the satisfactions of loving someone and being loved-- all these things really are created by us and by those around us-- together in ways that we can't fathom--
So when it comes to recovery models that require me to believe in a higher power, I see that higher power in some part of myself that I don't have contact with consciously, or have control over, that is my will to live, in a constructive, life-affirming way. And I see it also in loving or empathic connections between us and others-- all others, no matter who or where they are. So I try to put my faith in those things, which are unspoken and often unknowable. I try to move in myself toward them.
But of course, those who deeply believe in the goodness of god have every right to evoke and hold onto that as a source of strength, and, to state their belief in that. Where I take exception is when they're judgmental or try to control the live of others who don't share their beliefs.
Willful
Posted by emmanuel98 on May 22, 2012, at 18:49:14
In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by Willful on May 22, 2012, at 10:27:50
This makes so much sense to me. Thank you.
> I think it's great if people find deep comfort in facing life from the idea of god.
>
> But that idea has no meaning in my life. I was brought up without religious training or experiences, and while I have a deep emotional response to the beauty or feeling evoked in temples or synagogues and by certain rituals, I also have that feeling when I hear certain music, or see a beautiful painting or great movie.
>
> For me, spirituality is an emotion, a heightened state of mind, but it doesn't flow from anything beyond this world, any being that's all-powerful, all-knowing, who loves or doesn't love me or knows or doesn't know me. I don't believe life was created by anything but physical forces, or that our sense of right and wrong or of justice depends on their being some sort of judge or commander outside of the human realm.
>
> I have beliefs that I hold strongly about what's right and wrong-- or just-- just as much as anyone who is religious. I deeply object to those who argue that we need religion to have morality-- nor do I think "god" cares how we dress, how often we bow down, or give thanks to him, that there are god-given rules about abortion, respect for others, the role of women etc. Life and experiences, good and bad, are what we have to be thankful for-- the goodness and kindness of others, and beauty around us, the satisfactions of loving someone and being loved-- all these things really are created by us and by those around us-- together in ways that we can't fathom--
>
> So when it comes to recovery models that require me to believe in a higher power, I see that higher power in some part of myself that I don't have contact with consciously, or have control over, that is my will to live, in a constructive, life-affirming way. And I see it also in loving or empathic connections between us and others-- all others, no matter who or where they are. So I try to put my faith in those things, which are unspoken and often unknowable. I try to move in myself toward them.
>
> But of course, those who deeply believe in the goodness of god have every right to evoke and hold onto that as a source of strength, and, to state their belief in that. Where I take exception is when they're judgmental or try to control the live of others who don't share their beliefs.
>
> Willful
Posted by emmanuel98 on May 22, 2012, at 18:51:05
In reply to Re: There is always hope » emmanuel98, posted by Dinah on May 22, 2012, at 9:16:10
I guess it's hard for me to believe that people believe in god. I know they do, I just don't know why they do. It's a concept that has only negative connotations for me.
> That's fine with me. People have different beliefs. But what you said seemed to go beyond indifference.
>
> "I associate god with being slapped to get on my knees and pray, to being forced to listen to fire and brimstone sermons from as young an age as I can remember, with right wing fundamentalist busy-bodies. God to me means organized religion and I hate organized religion, though I will sometimes attend a unitarian service. "
>
> I love God. It wouldn't have felt right to say nothing, you know? When God was being associated with the bad works of man? Wouldn't you say something should someone say something like that about analysis or therapy or something you felt strongly about as a positive influence in your life?
Posted by sleepygirl2 on May 22, 2012, at 19:04:15
In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by Willful on May 22, 2012, at 10:27:50
Hello, sleepygirl here, non-believer, raised religious,
Spiritual beliefs are a funny thing. I can appreciate a lot of ideas held by different religious groups, sometimes not in a very concrete way, but in a metaphorical sort of way.
Those song lyrics feel kind of lonely and reassuring at the same time.
Posted by Phillipa on May 22, 2012, at 20:46:57
In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by Willful on May 22, 2012, at 10:27:50
Same here but one night well really two this strange thing happened my youngest was in the hospital some gland infection surgery to drain and was so spoiled with food couldn't get one thing in her to eat. Long story short. Two nights in a row "Jesus" appeared in my bedroom. Transmitted message "Be Strong" like a Vision. First night ignored. Second night the next morning went to hospital said to self if she wants to live she will if not nothing I can do and believe it or night she then started eating and was discharged a few days later. Explain this to me. Been trying to understand for 36 years. Phillipa ps no religion either in life
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2012, at 9:24:50
In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 22, 2012, at 18:51:05
I suppose that's the difference between facts and Truths. Both *seem* self evident to the viewer, but only one is truly objective.
But I daresay we both feel the same anger at those who misuse the name (or concept) of God to be unkind - particularly to children.
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2012, at 9:32:38
In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by Willful on May 22, 2012, at 10:27:50
> Where I take exception is when they're judgmental or try to control the live of others who don't share their beliefs.
>
> WillfulAgreed. Of course, people of faith don't hold a monopoly on being judgmental or controlling the lives of others. There are atheists out there too, judging and belittling those who don't share their beliefs. Perhaps it is a modern day manifestation of tribalism. Or maybe it's just a confusion of facts and Truths.
I'm not talking about anyone here. But reading the comments sections of news agencies has me glad I'm getting old. I can't decide if that's a good or bad thing. I'm sure there are psychological advantages to reconciling oneself to inevitable death.
Posted by Phillipa on May 23, 2012, at 19:35:08
In reply to Re: There is always hope » Willful, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2012, at 9:32:38
Share one seriously I'm at a loss? Phillipa
Posted by sigismund on May 24, 2012, at 14:17:21
In reply to Re: There is always hope » Willful, posted by Dinah on May 23, 2012, at 9:32:38
>I'm sure there are psychological advantages to reconciling oneself to inevitable death.
I think life becomes more vivid if you can. I just mean the senses.
Posted by SLS on May 28, 2012, at 19:20:40
In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 22, 2012, at 18:51:05
> I guess it's hard for me to believe that people believe in god.
What is your description of the god that you feel other people believe in that you do not?
It really doesn't matter to me if you believe in God or not. You are a good person. However, I am curious which god you don't believe in. Perhaps there is a conceptualization of a god that you would find rewarding to discover.
That the Universe exists at all is a miracle to me. It is the actualization of existence out of nothingness that I find the most compelling reason to acknowledge a higher power. For me, this becomes more of a spiritual connection with God than a religion paying ritualized homage to Him. Because of my beliefs, I feel more connected to everything around me. I feel one with the Universe, even if I don't understand anything about its workings. Somehow, this spiritual connection brings me solace for my pain, and a positive energy to move forward rather than capitulate.
I am convinced that my spiritual connection with God has helped prevent me from committing suicide.
- Scott
Posted by emmanuel98 on May 29, 2012, at 19:30:08
In reply to Re: There is always hope » emmanuel98, posted by SLS on May 28, 2012, at 19:20:40
It's the whole idea of a him or her that turns me off. I don't believe such an entity exists. My sponsor once said that god is love and spirituality meant giving love and allowing oneself to receive love to/from others. That's as far as I can believe in. My DBT therapist talks about self-compassion and the loving-kindness mantra from Buddhism. (May I be happy, may I live in peace, may I be at ease). I'm still trying to get this. But I believe that a belief in oneself and others is the key to survival for me, not a belief in god, an idea which simply has no resonance for me.
That's the key. I doesn't resonate. I know others believe in this. I know it is meaningful and helpful to them. I know they believe in a god very different from the one I learned in childhood (typical pre-Vatican 2 Catholicism, fire and brimstone, like in James Joyce's Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man). But I have no real curiousity about this. It just is meaningless to me.
Posted by sigismund on June 3, 2012, at 21:59:34
In reply to Re: There is always hope, posted by emmanuel98 on May 29, 2012, at 19:30:08
I very much enjoyed the dialogues about religion and life in "The Crossing" and I felt more informed through this dualistic monotheistic exchange that was not simply idiotic.
Not much hope there, I have to say. Just about none.
This is the end of the thread.
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