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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on September 24, 2010, at 12:37:01
We go down to once a week next week. Only I cancelled the remaining session too.
I hate him. I hate him. I hate him.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on September 24, 2010, at 14:42:33
In reply to I hate him, posted by Dinah on September 24, 2010, at 12:37:01
Why do you hate him, Diana? I know the feeling.....
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by twinleaf on September 24, 2010, at 15:30:50
In reply to Re: I hate him » Dinah, posted by sassyfrancesca on September 24, 2010, at 14:42:33
When I develop unbearable negative feelings towards my analyst, it's almost always the same thing: transference rage towards my mother which somehow gets triggered off by some threat of abandonment in the therapy relationship. It's the hardest thing I have to deal with, but when I succeed in understanding it and tolerating it, the relationship and the therapy invariably strengthen as we work things through. Do you think something like that might be going on?
Posted by 10derHeart on September 24, 2010, at 19:33:11
In reply to I hate him, posted by Dinah on September 24, 2010, at 12:37:01
:-(
(((Dinah)))
What's up?
Posted by Dinah on September 24, 2010, at 19:34:34
In reply to Re: I hate him » Dinah, posted by sassyfrancesca on September 24, 2010, at 14:42:33
I guess it's a stupid reason.
He's ok with my going down to once a week if I think I'm ready.
Posted by Dinah on September 24, 2010, at 19:36:59
In reply to Re: I hate him Dinah, posted by twinleaf on September 24, 2010, at 15:30:50
I don't know if it's from my mother, who was more into smothering than abandoning. But definitely the whole situation made me feel abandoned, even though it was my idea.
He's usually smart enough not to in any way indicate that he thinks my cutting down or terminating is a good idea. I guess he wasn't at his most cautious today.
I do have to wonder if I'm ready, when my response was so extreme.
Posted by Dinah on September 24, 2010, at 19:46:55
In reply to Re: I hate him » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on September 24, 2010, at 19:33:11
I wouldn't really say he nudged me out of the nest when I expressed interest. He didn't even put on too happy a face. But he did seem to respond with alacrity. Enough alacrity to trigger my abandonment anxiety and rage, apparently.
I responded none too well, and as usual when that happens, he seemed at a loss and his attempts to help just made things worse.
He did answer one of my angry calls today, and said he'd like to talk about my reaction to feeling hurt. He thinks I have a pattern of generalizing experiences, and then look for reasons to feel hurt by him.
Sigh. I'd given him some printouts a long time ago about treatment for emetophobia. He never had read them. He promised the time before last to read them by last session, but didn't. And he *swore* to me last session, with all earnest puppy dog eyes, that he'd read them by this session, but of course he didn't. He then tried to swear to me again that this time he really would read them by next time, but I wouldn't let him. He kind of jokes about it every time he tells me he's forgotten again. He told me he just hadn't had time to read it. Then he told me about something in today's paper...
Posted by annierose on September 24, 2010, at 21:20:31
In reply to Re: I hate him » 10derHeart, posted by Dinah on September 24, 2010, at 19:46:55
There's nothing like feeling disappointed in someone you value. I do think you sortof set him up in a lose-lose situation - - - not intentionally of course. You floated an idea and he barely responded the first time and then he decided to re-introduce the idea and ... I might have the events wrong ... and then you felt like he was pushing you out.
I know that hurts. It runs away from our center and takes over.
I do think talking to him about the overwhelming feelings will help. And shame on him for promising to read something time and time again, and not following through.
((( dinah )))
Posted by Dinah on September 24, 2010, at 22:17:09
In reply to Re: I hate him, posted by annierose on September 24, 2010, at 21:20:31
You're right. I did put him in an impossible situation. I really thought I was ready. I really thought it wouldn't hurt.
I surprised myself.
Now I'm totally confused.
Maybe if he hadn't neglected to read the printout over and over, I wouldn't have felt so abandoned. Maybe I would have. Maybe it's just something I have to live through, because there is no good way for him to react. Or maybe when I really am ready, I won't react this way.
Posted by vwoolf on September 25, 2010, at 9:39:46
In reply to Re: I hate him » 10derHeart, posted by Dinah on September 24, 2010, at 19:46:55
Dinah, it sounds like a really hard and confusing time for you.
Dropping the number of sessions or, even worse (heaven forbid) terminating, can bring up old feelings of abandonment and cause us to regress.
However I think it's important for you to keep thinking and not acting out.
Your t seems to be doing exactly what he should be doing - standing back and letting you work out for yourself when the right moment is. He will let you stay on two sessions a week if that is what you want, or he will let you drop to one if you feel that is better for you. He's taking his needs and desires out of the equation and turning the focus back onto you.
What is it that you want?
By reacting to what you perceive to be his intentions, and cancelling your session, you are avoiding thinking about yourself.
Having just come through this process myself, I know how I kept trying to fling blame at my therapist for her shortcomings instead of keeping my gaze carefully and firmly on myself.
I think it's important to move very slowly and thoughtfully through these changes. If you have reached the point of wanting to drop to once a week, there must be reasons for it that deserve to be kept in mind. You should hang on to all the gains of your years in therapy, of the ability to think and mentalise and not just react, which you have demonstrated again and again on this board. This is probably the hardest time, but it is when you will discover whether the whole process has been worth the trouble or not.
I hope I am not offending you or annoying you by being so blunt. I have just come through this and see you repeating the mistakes I wish I hadn't made. But perhaps we have to make them for ourselves to learn from them?
As for the reading, why did you bring that back up again now, at this precise moment? It sounds like he has been resisting this for some time, perhaps because he thinks you are trying to label and diagnose yourself and he knows you don't need the labels. I haven't met you but I have been reading your posts for many years now, and I sense that you are stronger than you are giving yourself credit for right now.
Posted by Dinah on September 25, 2010, at 15:43:28
In reply to Re: I hate him » Dinah, posted by vwoolf on September 25, 2010, at 9:39:46
Well... the reading and the termination are connected. It's not that I want to drop down to once a week, or at least not all of me wants to. But frankly we're spending time chatting, and that is boring to both of us. Though he won't outright admit that with his words.
We had come up with a couple of different ideas on things we could focus on in therapy. He does believe I have emetophobia severe enough to interfere with my functioning. He's suggested that I go to an EMDR therapist to work on it. I didn't find much value in EMDR, for me anyway, so it's not something I'm really interested in. I think I'd make far more progress with someone I already have a relationship with. He's got the complete wrong idea of what emetophobia treatment is, so I asked him if he'd be willing to review the printout I sent him. There's also a clinician and former emetophobe who is willing to consult with therapists for free, if he still has questions. Though the printout seems pretty comprehensive to me.
In addition, I was going to bring in my DBT videos by Marsha Linehan to see if that was something it would be worthwhile to do.
I did my part. I really feel like if he doesn't do his part, it's because he doesn't really care.
And I suppose he doesn't really. He may not be stupid enough to say that my dropping down to once a week is a good thing, or that it's a positive sign of growth. But certainly he probably thinks that. What therapist wouldn't? And he has no investment besides the monetary in seeing me. It's not like I'm really his therapee daughter.
On my side, there's more ambivalence than I thought I guess. Rational me sees the logical next step as cutting down. Emotional me is definitely bored in session, and I thought was ready to cut down on sessions. But apparently there is a whole lot of abandonment issues even in something I'm asking to do myself. I suppose I wanted him to help me work to find therapy material. Or say that he didn't think I'm ready. Or say he didn't want to see me less often. I don't know...
Plus, when I get upset and he stays imperturbable, I tend to escalate. I hate that I can't reach him.
I know I could handle things more maturely. When I'm operating in my emotional self, I'm not all that mature.
I probably don't often post in that state of mind. In fact, my acting out is almost solely confined to therapy.
Posted by annierose on September 25, 2010, at 22:06:32
In reply to Re: I hate him » vwoolf, posted by Dinah on September 25, 2010, at 15:43:28
Often, my ramped-up feelings run away from me and take over every aspect of my being ... and it's hard to get to an acceptable livable level of calm. Where are you at tonight as far as anxiety?
My t has really helped me find the calm in the storm. I'm not quite sure how or when it happened, I just know when I'm upset, the overwhelmed anxious feelings don't last as long.
Have you called him? Does he know how you are feeling?
Posted by emilyp on September 25, 2010, at 23:12:38
In reply to Re: I hate him » vwoolf, posted by Dinah on September 25, 2010, at 15:43:28
I understand your concerns about dropping down to once a week. You are the only one who can decide whether this is the right time
But you may want to think again about whether you will really benefit from having him treat you for the emetophobia or focusing on therapy similar to DBT. I say that because, like everyone, therapists have their zone of comfort. There are issues and methods that they feel comfortable with and other ones that they do not. Just like everyone else, therapists have their strengths and weaknesses - almost no one does everything well.
From what you have written, it sounds like you have asked him to consider expanding your therapy to other issues. That obviously makes sense considering your existing relationship. But it also sounds like he is not comfortable with the issue of emetophobia and perhaps may not know much about DBT (not every therapist studies or practices DBT). It is of course disappointing considering how much of an investment you have in your relationship.
On the other hand, I am not sure you would benefit from working with him if he is not comfortable with certain issues. He is not dealing with the situation well - he should be upfront and honest with you in terms of his limitations. But longer term, you may be better off not wasting your time and efforts working with someone who is not fully invested in these issues.
I think very highly of my doctor (who is also my therapist), but I know there are things that he is capable of doing and other things - whether due to his training, general abilities or his comfort level, that are not his strengths. (I strongly suspect he could not deal with emetophobia, as he may have a minor case of it himself.) I actually feel better when he is honest with me and suggests that I might want to consider working with someone else as it relates to certain issues.
Posted by wittgensteinz on September 26, 2010, at 4:56:41
In reply to I hate him, posted by Dinah on September 24, 2010, at 12:37:01
I'm sorry you are hurting.
Do you think his repeated promises (and failure to keep to his promises) regarding the work on emetophobia is in any way linked to your feelings of boredom and the idea of cutting back to once a week?
It seems that there are two distinct issues to process with him, and maybe the handling of the emetophobia (and his resistance to personally engaging you in treatment for this) needs to be worked through first before any question of cutting back? By promising and not keeping to these promises, he is prolonging the possibility of resolving this issue - it's a big problem for you and something that you want to work on but he, for whatever reason, is resistant. If together you can find out 'why' this is then maybe a solution is possible - either him directly helping you with it or you both coming to an understanding of why he cannot and what might be an alternative.
As for cutting back on sessions. I'm sure it has been something on and off your mind for a very long time in one way or the other - for example in reaction to how you are feeling about the therapy and perhaps to practical circumstances. But to what extent did you prepare for the last session with your therapist? It's such a huge thing to do (I think) - that surely there should be quite a process involved in first working through all the feelings that are likely to arise. From your posts, I get the impression that you went to the session, suggested reducing the sessions to once a week and he agreed - almost like you had to do it quick to force yourself into it?
I reduced the frequency of my sessions earlier this year. It wasn't something I really wanted to do but for practical reasons there was a conflict (not enough time in the week, essentially - I was finding myself becoming stressed sometimes because I'd have a session when really there wasn't enough time). The frequency now is 'good enough' (although I still miss the higher frequency) - but cutting back was a very difficult, conflict-ridden, process. It took a good half year before it was instigated and much going back and forth - and it took a further 3 or 4 months before I'd adjusted to the new frequency.
I suppose what I mean to say is that it's a very delicate process and likely to evoke strong emotions in you. I would take your time and process it before actually cutting back - this might be painful but probably very helpful in the long run.
You don't have to do it - and you're the one wanting to do it. If you hadn't brought it up, your therapist wouldn't have - he's responding to you (albeit his response triggered a lot of hurt). He's been there for you all these years and not pushed you out the door. I very, very much doubt he is indifferent toward you or sees you as a talking wallet. I'm not writing this because I think you have been unreasonable - whether something is reasonable or not is not so relevant - I guess I just want to react to your comments in an earlier post about your feeling that he doesn't care about you. I'd feel hurt/angry too if my therapist had promised to do something for me (repeatedly) and failed to do so - I think you need to tell him how that makes you feel. Can you re-schedule your 2 sessions for next week? Having no session next week will probably only intensify these feelings.
I hope you see him this coming week and talk this all through with him. I also hope he stops making empty promises or else gets down to reading the articles instead of his newspaper! - Or perhaps ask him to read it in session (or highlight the parts that are most important for him to read?).
Witti
Posted by Dinah on September 26, 2010, at 10:05:11
In reply to Re: I hate him, posted by emilyp on September 25, 2010, at 23:12:38
I know. But it would appear that I'm not ready to accept what that would mean. That he can't bring me any further.
Darned if I understand why, other than that maybe I find stability in the parental/child relationship we have. It's the relationship I have always felt comfortable in. Since Daddy died, he may be the only way I can be in that relationship.
He keeps giving me mixed signals on the emetophobia. I even asked him if he were emetophobic himself, and he said no. He seems comfortable enough speaking of it, too comfortable for my comfort sometimes. He had the idea that desensitization would involve actual vomiting in his office, but it doesn't. He was actually very anxious and excited about doing it at one point. But he admits that that desire might have had some white knight aspects to it. He's not really clear on why he's reluctant. Sometimes he doesn't seem reluctant at all. He's right in that he does procrastinate on everything, not just this. I hate to say it, but although he works long hours, I think in some ways he's a bit intellectually lazy in therapy. Or at least that's how he comes across. It might be just part of his phlegmatic personality, the personality that I find so helpful at other times.
The DBT he actually does want to do. We've long talked about it, and he's intrigued with the concepts. But when I brought the video in, I got the distinct impression that he was getting more out of it than I was. He wasn't expanding on the concepts in any way, or suggesting ways they might apply to me personally, or talking with me about ways I could use the skills. I'm happy to share with him and I'm sure he would find the knowledge beneficial, but it didn't seem fair that I should share with him at his hourly rate...
Still, I guess it would give us something to do, and I'll likely bring in the videos just to fill the time. I'm tired of chit chat, and I'm even more tired of him fighting sleep as we talk.
Posted by Dinah on September 26, 2010, at 10:39:29
In reply to Re: I hate him » Dinah, posted by wittgensteinz on September 26, 2010, at 4:56:41
> Do you think his repeated promises (and failure to keep to his promises) regarding the work on emetophobia is in any way linked to your feelings of boredom and the idea of cutting back to once a week?
I think a large part of it is that there are no huge stressors in my life right now, and I'm fairly stable. If any huge stressors crop up, I'd probably find twice a week therapy more useful. We've explored just about every part of my past there is, and I don't think there's anything I could say that he wouldn't respond "I know".
He doesn't push in therapy. He says he won't push, that's not who he is. So he doesn't really push on areas where I've been reluctant to change. That generally works well for me. He gently suggests, we talk about it, I think about it, and I come to see things differently (and don't even always recognize that they weren't my ideas to begin with). But at times like this, I think a bit of pushing on those areas where I remain firmly entrenched might be helpful. I'm certainly not saying my mental health is all it should be, or that there's nothing I need to work on. For example, I really really overuse avoidance. Although... I'm pretty sure he does too, so doesn't feel like it's something that needs that much work. He also has a tendency to say he doesn't know how to help me with this or that problem that is remaining.
> It seems that there are two distinct issues to process with him, and maybe the handling of the emetophobia (and his resistance to personally engaging you in treatment for this) needs to be worked through first before any question of cutting back? By promising and not keeping to these promises, he is prolonging the possibility of resolving this issue - it's a big problem for you and something that you want to work on but he, for whatever reason, is resistant. If together you can find out 'why' this is then maybe a solution is possible - either him directly helping you with it or you both coming to an understanding of why he cannot and what might be an alternative.
I think that's true. I have the two ideas enmeshed in my mind. That somehow reading the handouts was a test, and that by not reading them, he failed. He'd likely read them in session, but that wouldn't lead to him passing the test. I know. It's silly. This is a test that he's bound to fail, given who he is. It probably doesn't mean he doesn't care at all. I know he cares, in the context of what clients are to him. Certainly it means the caring is lopsided. He insists that it's lopsided, not one sided. But it's also partly a function of who he is. He once had me scheduled for a phone session, when he was in a different town. He broke a tooth, made a dental appointment, scratched me off his calendar, and neglected to inform me.
> As for cutting back on sessions. I'm sure it has been something on and off your mind for a very long time in one way or the other - for example in reaction to how you are feeling about the therapy and perhaps to practical circumstances. But to what extent did you prepare for the last session with your therapist? It's such a huge thing to do (I think) - that surely there should be quite a process involved in first working through all the feelings that are likely to arise. From your posts, I get the impression that you went to the session, suggested reducing the sessions to once a week and he agreed - almost like you had to do it quick to force yourself into it?
I thought about it a long time before I brought it up. I had some fear that if I brought it up, something awful would happen. Fear that was reinforced when shortly after concluding I didn't need him as much, Katrina hit and forced a separation. My magical thinking would be much easier to cure if it didn't keep getting reinforced.
We've been talking about it for three or four sessions, but I'm not sure he took me seriously until the last two. Maybe the last one. He's not really very good with talking about the feelings underlying the move. He tends to back way far off and become extremely neutral so as not to influence me. He's so concerned about that that he doesn't even think about the things that would likely come naturally to an analyst. He rarely does long term therapy, and never therapy as long as I've had. I just don't think he thinks in those terms. And there might be some feelings of rejection on his side too, that causes him to be more stiff and neutral than usual. After all, he's human too and likely doesn't like to hear that a patient is bored senseless. Especially a patient who has adored him consistently for years.
> I reduced the frequency of my sessions earlier this year. It wasn't something I really wanted to do but for practical reasons there was a conflict (not enough time in the week, essentially - I was finding myself becoming stressed sometimes because I'd have a session when really there wasn't enough time). The frequency now is 'good enough' (although I still miss the higher frequency) - but cutting back was a very difficult, conflict-ridden, process. It took a good half year before it was instigated and much going back and forth - and it took a further 3 or 4 months before I'd adjusted to the new frequency.
That is very interesting. You did eventually adjust? I tend to think that if I could get past the original pain, I'd get used to it. But on the other side of the coin, I also think it's the beginning of the end. I don't hold on to him well between sessions. I think he'd become less and less important in my life, until I forgot who he was to me emotionally. So to some extent, I see cutting back as a prelude to termination. And not that long a prelude.
> I suppose what I mean to say is that it's a very delicate process and likely to evoke strong emotions in you. I would take your time and process it before actually cutting back - this might be painful but probably very helpful in the long run.
I might bring your post in and read it to him. Because he isn't analytic in training, and he doesn't deal with long term therapy very often, I don't think he's skilled or knowledgeable in these matters. It's always been an issue with us. Long term therapy for him is a year, or two years. We're fellow travelers when it comes to long term work. If he can be brought to understand that it is something to work on, not just a "Well, ok. I'll see you in a week then." it might go better between us.
> You don't have to do it - and you're the one wanting to do it. If you hadn't brought it up, your therapist wouldn't have - he's responding to you (albeit his response triggered a lot of hurt). He's been there for you all these years and not pushed you out the door. I very, very much doubt he is indifferent toward you or sees you as a talking wallet. I'm not writing this because I think you have been unreasonable - whether something is reasonable or not is not so relevant - I guess I just want to react to your comments in an earlier post about your feeling that he doesn't care about you. I'd feel hurt/angry too if my therapist had promised to do something for me (repeatedly) and failed to do so - I think you need to tell him how that makes you feel. Can you re-schedule your 2 sessions for next week? Having no session next week will probably only intensify these feelings.
He answered one of my many angry calls to him Friday, and suggested that I talk to him Tuesday. So as of now, we're scheduled for twice a week. In one of those strange twists of fate, I may not be able to see him Tuesday because of a deadline at work that just isn't going well. Why do computers always seem to act worst when you need them most?
> I hope you see him this coming week and talk this all through with him. I also hope he stops making empty promises or else gets down to reading the articles instead of his newspaper! - Or perhaps ask him to read it in session (or highlight the parts that are most important for him to read?).
Thank you. :)
I think part of why this is so problematic for me, and I act out so badly, is that I'm pretty split on what I want to do. My rational self sees this as something so obvious as to be barely worthy of thought. My emotional self is bored in session, and recognizes that I'm doing better, and thinks I probably ought to cut down. But apparently there's also a lot of feelings inside about rejection and loss and being alone. I'm not all that verbal when I'm in that state, and tend to lash out and act out instead of struggling to find words to inchoate feelings. The cooler and more rational he gets, the angrier and more frustrated I get.
You gave me a lot to think about. Thanks.
Posted by Dinah on September 27, 2010, at 21:58:52
In reply to I hate him, posted by Dinah on September 24, 2010, at 12:37:01
I'm so embarrassed.
Not that this isn't something he already knows about me. It's just that he had forgotten for a while.
Posted by muffled on October 5, 2010, at 21:53:55
In reply to Not looking forward to tomorrow, posted by Dinah on September 27, 2010, at 21:58:52
Cutting back has huge implications, so its hard.
I don't know that its a great mystery. Its just hard when you been w/a T that long to cut back.
But I think it'd be a GREAT idea myself.
Then you can go shopping w/the money you save.
Or find a fresh new T.
Or a DBT course.
Its just hard to cut back when you are used to it.
REALLY hard.
But then you get used to being less often and its ok.
Best wishes
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