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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by violette on August 3, 2010, at 21:38:07
This has been lingering in my mind all week.
Last session, T and I were discussing influential psychoanalysts such as Kernberg and Kohut. I never disclosed to him yet exactly how much I read about psychology during the past year-and told him I read all the stuff I did in part to protect me from my next T (him), but rarely do so anymore. He understands the context around that and is fine with it.
We had a nice discussion-he seemed to really like to have someone with whom he could exchange views of psychoanalytic clincial research and theories; the different schools of thought, etc.
We also talked alot about our interests in art. T has said sometimes he wants to get to know me better-aside from the actual working through.. But last week and the week before, he didn't say that. We just ended up chit chatting alot.
The week before seemed like that too. I said at the end of last week's session - "Dr. T, don't be letting me intellectualize *too* much...we have alot of work to do..." Well he said something in return to the effect I was being critical of him. I was devasted to think I was being critical to him, so I don't even remember exactly how he said it. Maybe it will come to mind soon...
I wasn't questioning his professionalism, but thought it's been a while since he asked me "how did it make you feel", etc., while focusing on my inner state and childhood traumas.
I wonder if it's because I recently had some PTSD reactions-I had told him prior to the last 2 sessions that I started to feel emotinal flooding, but pushed it aside to deal with later. Had some major panick attacks, minor hallucinations/paranoia and some other regression. So maybe he was trying to be 'light' for my benefit? Except I told him since I'd been avoiding my mother, I haven't had such pronounced symptomology.
After all this, I realized it's because I feel most connected with him when we discuss heavy emotions-and we had not done that in 2 weeks. Why would I feel more connected wtih emotional discussion but not as connected with excanging our perosnal interests and beliefs?
I'm afraid to go next session in some ways as I cannot keep things from him. After our 2 minute chit chat at beginning of session, I go right into what's on my mind. And I'm afraid I was critical to him. I love him so much and I can't bear to think I said something that shed a bad light on him. I was just thinking I needed to work harder at the time, thinking he'd be ok with my stating this.
Does that sound critical to say, "Dr.-now don't be letting me intellectualize *too* much...T has always let me take the lead (or allow me to feel as if I'm in charge) so it didn't seem any different than how I've related to him in the past. I really enjoyed our conversation about art and psychology; I guess it just concerned me and I'm having mixed feelings about the whole thing. I can't wait to get this off my mind next session, as this is confusing.
Posted by mystickangaroo on August 4, 2010, at 4:20:35
In reply to Was I being critical of T?, posted by violette on August 3, 2010, at 21:38:07
Violette I don't think you were being critical of your T. I think you might be a bit critical of yourself.
sorry but my thoughts are a bit rambly tonight. I hope I make sense. You understand alot of pyschology and the process of therapy. Reading your post I had the image of you sitting in both chairs. Hmm that could be me projecting me into your post.
I think your last few paragraphs about what works in therapy for you and talking about art and psychology shows the layers of the relationship you have with your T. The cognitive and the emotional. Sounds to me like you trusted him on both levels. And that has taken some time for you to do cos you hadn't told him how much you know... til now....
Trusting the relationship is Not Easy!!
Take care of yourself
Posted by violette on August 4, 2010, at 7:02:58
In reply to Re: Was I being critical of T?, posted by mystickangaroo on August 4, 2010, at 4:20:35
Mystic, trusting on the cognitive level was something I've never thought of before....I know relationships involve different aspects-but what does trusting on the cognitive level mean? It feels good to trust in someone who cares about you. And one of the things I love about him is his love for learning.
well I didn't tell him yet I read several psychodynamic manuals...He had started to tell me about something a researcher wrote about, and I said oh I read that..that's how the conversation started....and I think I was afraid he was starting to let me intelletualize everything, which is what I did with my prior therapists..the whole time..and don't want to go back there. But I guess I can enjoy different aspects of the relationship-it doesn't have to be either or.
I still can't remember what he said about being critical, but I'll ask him next session-you know how things emerge when you process sessions? I just have so much to work through each session-stuff pops in my head everyday and I really wish I could go more than once a week. I've been saving this stuff up my whole life...and need to get it out...and it takes so long, so long...thanks :)
Posted by mystickangaroo on August 4, 2010, at 8:24:33
In reply to Re: Was I being critical of T? » mystickangaroo, posted by violette on August 4, 2010, at 7:02:58
Hi Violette
I know there are times when it is like I am a third party watching me and my T. Keeping an eye on the process. Making sure we are both on track... Doing what we are supposed to be doing...
For me the challenge is to let my T look after the therapy bits. whatever they are. So I talk about whatever and she does whatever it is she does. Gee that looks a most inadequate description. it is like a fish swimming around looking for the ocean. we are in it. Because we are in it we can't see it til we have perspective.
I am learning that it is the interaction rather than the content that makes therapy a good thing for me. Sometimes I wonder at the value of our conversations and then I think jeepers what is wrong with enjoying a conversation?? And hey I have things in common with somebody I admire. what does that say about me??????
Posted by violette on August 4, 2010, at 20:51:25
In reply to Re: Was I being critical of T? » violette, posted by mystickangaroo on August 4, 2010, at 8:24:33
> I am learning that it is the interaction rather than the content that makes therapy a good thing for me. Sometimes I wonder at the value of our conversations and then I think jeepers what is wrong with enjoying a conversation??
That was a nice reminder. I ended up sending my T a text message in appreciation of the conversation. After more reflection, I think the feelings were related to Ts in the past being my 'partner' in strengthening the wall around childhood emotions...so I guess it was a fear we'd go there too. Everything seems to trace back to a fear. But it likely was an irrational fear, as he's the only T who I've had who works on integrating my emotions rather than walling them off.
I agree with you about the relationship, but at the same time, I started to get sad thinking that no adult has ever treated me the way he does...it made me think of what I never had and what I'll possibly never have again in my lifetime.
Posted by sigismund on August 5, 2010, at 16:02:58
In reply to Was I being critical of T?, posted by violette on August 3, 2010, at 21:38:07
Somewhere else, violette, you mentioned the kind of emotional violence that analytic therapy often processes.
So, it wasn't a moment of complete concord when this happened
> Dr. T, don't be letting me intellectualize *too* much...we have alot of work to do...As you of course know, times with analytic therapists outside of the analytic process are few and far between. I suppose they are technically impermissible, but naturally occur. I have no idea if this is right or wrong, but that's the way it was for me. So your T may have felt therapeutic guilt that you reinforced.
Which I suppose you regret because those moments are the ones when you feel your contact is somehow more real.
It's a terrible analogy (though Laing used it so I might) of the comparison between prostitution and therapy. There is a process. You naturally try to stand outside the process to find some more real contact. But, in any case, you/me are trying to grasp or possess what cannot be possessed. Well, you might not be but I was.
Posted by sigismund on August 5, 2010, at 16:09:39
In reply to Re: Was I being critical of T?, posted by mystickangaroo on August 4, 2010, at 4:20:35
>Reading your post I had the image of you sitting in both chairs.
Ha! The most interesting subject!
A hundred years ago I took some acid and saw my shrink. I told him, he knew about it, no big deal.
Anyway we had a tremendous chat, so to speak, and we were talking about what MK refers to (I think) and I said 'I'm playing tennis from both ends of the court', or maybe (I can't remember) 'I'm playing tennis from the wrong end of the court'.
This hasn't got anything to do with projective identification, has it? I'm always to lazy to understand it.
Then of course there's envy and greed. No particular need for me to mention that. Just that envy might pull you out of yourself (or lock you in there) and greed (well you need some of that to construct a sense of self, it's natural.)
Posted by violette on August 5, 2010, at 20:28:15
In reply to Re: Was I being critical of T?, posted by sigismund on August 5, 2010, at 16:02:58
>So, it wasn't a moment of complete concord when this happened
> Dr. T, don't be letting me intellectualize *too* much...we have alot of work to do...> As you of course know, times with analytic therapists outside of the analytic process are few and far between. I suppose they are technically impermissible, but naturally occur. I have no idea if this is right or wrong, but that's the way it was for me.
He's not a conventional analyst, so our frame is a bit different and self-disclosure is involved. I consider him to be some sort of Rogerian analyst-though we never talked about the concept.
> So your T may have felt therapeutic guilt that you reinforced.
That's a good one! I did not think of this...Weird how I completely blocked out of my mind what he said about being critical. I can't wait to ask him this though-cause then I get to see him do his self-analysis thingy out loud. hehe That's how I learned to do it. And I get a childlike feeling when I 'get him to do stuff'. Maybe the manipulative part of me? A giggly-little-girl feeling when he does stuff from my provocations. Hmmm. wtf is that all about? You got me in exploratory mode now.
> Which I suppose you regret because those moments are the ones when you feel your contact is somehow more real.
No, I like to be emotionally connected better since I've held it inside for too long. So I'm actually the opposite. I'm not used to anyone focusing on me in this way-I was always the one to focus on them-so I grew to liking the attention from him, rather than shifting it away like I would have done before I trusted him.
But-maybe he feels I will get too attached since it's *always* after processing deep stuff that I end up telling him next session I'm missing him more or wanting physical affection from him?
> It's a terrible analogy (though Laing used it so I might) of the comparison between prostitution and therapy. There is a process. You naturally try to stand outside the process to find some more real contact. But, in any case, you/me are trying to grasp or possess what cannot be possessed. Well, you might not be but I was.
I haven't gotten to that point yet. The primary frustration I've felt has been for physical affection, not necessarily the s word, but not excluding it either. But it hasn't been an issue lately.
As for the topic of projective identification in your other thread....I can only think about that in the morning and right after coffee. It hurts my head to think of it now. lol That's the hardest one to grasp.
Hey thanks for the idea about the guilt-I like that. He's mentioned something to this affect before during/after similar talking.... He'd be happy if I brought this up as he always says he likes to learn about himself. (probably would be happy too if I didn't automatically think it was just me-though I'll tell him that too)
See, now-thoughts came out about how I like to make him happy. Maybe that's why I don't get too frustrated-that seems to have been an unconscious wish, or so now it suddenly arose in my conscious...and I'm discovering it comes true at times...Siganalyst-thanks for leading me to the insight. :)
Geez maybe I have to start trying to make him angry. I really do like for him to be happy...and maybe too much. And if he does not realize this, it might not be good. I wonder if he's caught on to me yet?
Posted by violette on August 5, 2010, at 20:41:55
In reply to Re: Was I being critical of T?, posted by sigismund on August 5, 2010, at 16:02:58
Violette to Sigismund. Violette calling Sigismund-do you copy?
Help! This is a problem! He's not supposed to let me manipulate him-I try to make him happy and he's been letting me...maybe he *is* aware of this. Thinking back now, I think he was on to me-I remember times when he did not let me do this. Hmmm....now he's encouraging it maybe? Under the guise of being helpful? And now letting me send him text messages?
sos?
Posted by sigismund on August 6, 2010, at 2:11:44
In reply to Re: Was I being critical of T? » sigismund, posted by violette on August 5, 2010, at 20:41:55
Let's start at the beginning :)
>As for the topic of projective identification in your other thread....I can only think about that in the morning and right after coffee.
I have asked people here before and been answered, but any explanation will be one I forget.
If I knew the feelings it referred to in me, that would be different.
Ah, the good old days when your psychiatrist would give you an injection of amphetamine and have you understanding this by the end of the session.When you say 'Do you copy?', I assume you mean 'Do you copy?', so if I understand you correctly, the answer is yes.
It was more of a problem in my 20s. I'd find myself using other peoples' voices and mannerisms.
I understood this in the language of my T who spoke about digestion.
All children copy which is how they learn, but when an adult copies like that it is disturbing because it lacks the expected elements of digestion and synthesis.
I had endless problems about this, or issues related, and conversely it informs the most basic parts of me, my empathy, fear and humour.
I was taking acid with someone who looked at me and said, talking of his shrink (as you do)
'Egos are just fictional entities'
which certainly sounded profound at the time and a little scary.Then again, as I said to someone in a post here using various things I'd copied
"I am me as you are we as you are me and we are all together
On the other hand, hell is other people.
What's the weather like? Warm enough for a nice dip?"So I suppose like everything it cuts both ways.
Posted by violette on August 6, 2010, at 17:18:27
In reply to Re: Was I being critical of T?, posted by sigismund on August 6, 2010, at 2:11:44
Posted by obsidian on August 7, 2010, at 13:22:24
In reply to Was I being critical of T?, posted by violette on August 3, 2010, at 21:38:07
for what it's worth...
I don't think you were being critical of your T, but were expressing what you wanted and needed
-sid
Posted by obsidian on August 7, 2010, at 13:32:59
In reply to Re: Was I being critical of T?, posted by sigismund on August 6, 2010, at 2:11:44
sig,
you've gone and quoted the beatles...
good job :-)
Posted by violette on August 7, 2010, at 19:44:48
In reply to Re: Was I being critical of T? » violette, posted by obsidian on August 7, 2010, at 13:22:24
He didn't see it as critical and said it made him rethink our latest sessions and he understands why I would say something like that. I had thought of what Mystic said, and told him I can enjoy other aspects of our relationship as well. We ended up watching a music video on YouTube together afterwards.
I didn't even have to bring it up as he had already looked into it and brought it up before I had to. I have trouble with negative feelings towards someone who is helping me and who I admire, or anything that might even seem negative or critical even if it isn't. With him, they are far and few in between, but he encourages me to say things like that.
He is so much fun and so sweet and kind and I just love him so much. He told me of suprise plans for his wife for the weekend-it was like he is still dating her after all these years.
He is in his 60s but has done more in 1 month socially than I have done in over a year. Despite a friend calling to do something today, I was so sad all day thinking I'll probably never have anyone like him in my life. I basically sat around feeling sorry for myself all day despite being motivated when I got up to accomplish some things. I've been crying off and on all day. I know I'll snap out of it, maybe just need to grieve a bit for now.
This is the end of the thread.
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