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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by 10derHeart on April 23, 2009, at 14:19:02
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy » Dinah, posted by MollieQ on April 23, 2009, at 10:48:55
Posted by raisinb on April 23, 2009, at 17:20:54
In reply to I missed out on the Dinah fan club.., posted by workinprogress on April 23, 2009, at 11:30:47
I second all the wonderful things people have said about you :) I hope you're feeling better and I hope seeing how much everyone values you has helped :)
(((Dinah)))
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2009, at 16:25:04
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy » Dinah, posted by SLS on April 23, 2009, at 9:30:44
> Hi Dinah.
>
> You are uniquely wonderful, regardless of how you try to understand yourself. You are accepted by me in your entirety, especially for the positive core of your being that I am pretty sure I can see.
>
> I put together a long reply yesterday acting as an armchair psychotherapist. I decided not to post it because I wasn't comfortable with what I had written. I offered too many scenarios.
>
> For instance, perhaps you no longer have a white whale to conquer. Worse than that, perhaps you need not have spent so many years chasing it when the answer now seems so simple. Lost years?
>
> I don't know.
>
> I have other possible explanations, but I imagine that you have explored them already.
>
>
> - Scott
>Thanks, Scott. That means a lot to me.
I'd actually welcome your thoughts. From what you've said over time, I think your therapist might approach things a bit differently than mine. However thoroughly therapized I may be, it's mostly in the same direction.
White whale? Did you have anything in particular in mind?
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2009, at 16:38:52
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy » Dinah, posted by MollieQ on April 23, 2009, at 10:48:55
Thank you. :)
I have an embarrassment of riches on Babble. I consider myself so fortunate to know so many wonderful people here. It's probably a bit self pitying of me to worry myself about what impression I make on many people.
My therapist and I talked a lot about this today. I ended up with a post-therapy migraine for the first time in a very long time. To his credit, when I pointed out that he had acknowledged his fault but not expressed regret for causing me pain, he did apologize more personally. But not for long. He's an immensely resilient guy in part because he doesn't dwell on these things much. But you're right. Empathy isn't really his strength.
Neither is dwelling on unpleasantness. He was very frustrated with my "negativity" towards myself today, until I pointed out that self image and body image is such a horrendously difficult thing to talk about. And I was showing him a great deal of trust to talk about it with him.
He thinks that the reason I don't get along with mental health professionals is that most of them see me as in need of "fixing". And I resist being fixed. He says that perhaps he did too at one time. But that he doesn't any more.
I suspect, from my post therapy migraine if nothing else, that this is an area that has not yet been adequately addressed in therapy. I hope my therapist is up to addressing it.
Everyone likes my therapist, and he is generally accounted as attractive. (It's difficult for me to assess that really, towards a therapist/mommy. But my husband and mother assure me he is attractive.) So he's going to have to dredge up some imagination and empathy.
I really do think you're right about my therapist and perhaps about the others too. But it's hard, when there seems to be a lot of negative reaction towards me, not to conclude that whatever is going on with others, some of it must have to do with me.
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2009, at 16:46:19
In reply to I missed out on the Dinah fan club.., posted by workinprogress on April 23, 2009, at 11:30:47
Well, now I'm going to blush along with my smile. :)
Thank you. I really do appreciate it.
I wish I could find a way to be "Dinah" in real life. I wonder if it's the asynchronous nature of the internet that gives me time to reflect before I speak. Or if I just am nervous around people and freeze up.
I didn't have time to post this morning before therapy, but I did look up Susan Boyle on the internet. It definitely caused a reaction in me. I think my favorite quote from the comments was:
"We are shallow to expect nothing special from an ordinary middle-aged
woman...but then she sings and she has the most beautiful voice and all of a
sudden she's SOMEONE special and we're ashamed because we pre-judged
her as a NOBODY. BUT that still makes us shallow - worse than shallow -
because WHAT IF SHE COULDN'T SING...?"I guess that's how I feel. Like I open my mouth, and have a pleasant enough voice, but nothing special, and everyone thinks the cover represents the book, and I'm not worth much at all. My therapist tells me that I am special when I open my mouth, and I suppose I am humbled by the fact that many of you echo that thought.
My therapist brought her up today too, so I'm glad I had a chance to watch the video.
Thank you.
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2009, at 16:47:42
In reply to Re: I missed out on the Dinah fan club.. » workinprogress, posted by raisinb on April 23, 2009, at 17:20:54
Thank you. It does. :)
Posted by SLS on April 24, 2009, at 17:06:57
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy » SLS, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2009, at 16:25:04
Hi Dinah.
> White whale? Did you have anything in particular in mind?
Yes. I thought that perhaps your notion of finally "earning" being liked by your therapist was some sort of fulfilled desire of yours, and that having obtained it, you find that it was quite anticlimactic and not of profound significance. If it doesn't apply here, I guess the metaphor can be of use in other aspects of your life where you have chased something that never needed chasing. In general, I think it can be melancholy to realize how much time and effort was put into something that really didn't deserve being such an obsession. Lost years.
It is not important to me that any of my ideas be right. It is important to me that you find solace in understanding, no matter where such understanding comes from.
You are so loved here.
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2009, at 17:37:55
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy » Dinah, posted by SLS on April 24, 2009, at 17:06:57
> Yes. I thought that perhaps your notion of finally "earning" being liked by your therapist was some sort of fulfilled desire of yours, and that having obtained it, you find that it was quite anticlimactic and not of profound significance. If it doesn't apply here, I guess the metaphor can be of use in other aspects of your life where you have chased something that never needed chasing. In general, I think it can be melancholy to realize how much time and effort was put into something that really didn't deserve being such an obsession. Lost years.
Chuckle. I feel like you really have grasped that aspect of my character. I have worked, in my own convoluted and strictly scrupulous way, to earn love from my therapist. I've always valued love earned more than love freely given. My therapist says I'm very bad at accepting grace. I daresay that goes back to my relationship with my parents. I always laugh that I was well compensated with love.But having gotten it, I think I value it very much. Love from someone I care a lot about, and who really has very little in common with me in any way, could never be considered by me to be anything but profoundly significant. I do occasionally worry that that particular achievement can drain energy from therapy.
In other aspects of my life... Perhaps. I've always been a person with very realistic, and not terribly challenging, goals. I'm quite lazy, I'm afraid. Perhaps my problem is that having achieved this goal, I'm at loose ends for another one. I suppose home improvement is not the same sort of goal.
I could aim to have my husband approve of me. But *that* is an impossible dream, and I'm not given to pursuing impossible dreams. At least not outside the safe haven of therapy.
Posted by antigua3 on April 24, 2009, at 19:28:42
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy » Dinah, posted by SLS on April 24, 2009, at 17:06:57
>>I guess the metaphor can be of use in other aspects of your life where you have chased something that never needed chasing. In general, I think it can be melancholy to realize how much time and effort was put into something that really didn't deserve being such an obsession. Lost years.
>
Interesting idea, but I couldn't ever let myself believe that they were "lost" years because that would be too devastating. I prefer to think of discovering things like this that they were earned insights that for whatever reasons had to be obtained.It's like my pdoc asking me the other day if I had any regrets at how my life had worked out, knowing that my warped beliefs colored every area of my life. Yes, of course, I have regrets, some very shameful ones, but I decided a long time ago that I couldn't go down that path because I am who I am, illness/whatever and all, and I have to believe that some good came out of the effort.
Sorry for jumping in Dinah.
Thanks for the thought Scott.
antigua
Posted by SLS on April 24, 2009, at 20:36:55
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy » SLS, posted by antigua3 on April 24, 2009, at 19:28:42
> > Lost years.
> Interesting idea, but I couldn't ever let myself believe that they were "lost" years because that would be too devastating. I prefer to think of discovering things like this that they were earned insights that for whatever reasons had to be obtained.
>
> It's like my pdoc asking me the other day if I had any regrets at how my life had worked out, knowing that my warped beliefs colored every area of my life. Yes, of course, I have regrets, some very shameful ones, but I decided a long time ago that I couldn't go down that path because I am who I am, illness/whatever and all, and I have to believe that some good came out of the effort.
>
> Sorry for jumping in Dinah.
> Thanks for the thought Scott.
> antigua
For me, the lost decades have been difficult for me to accept. They still haunt me sometimes. However, I have gone through a grieving process such that I now accept the loss. I imagine there will be more grieving that I will be confronted with every now and then. However, I am ready to move on. What a gift it is to have received such a genuine improvement in my condition. I thank God every day for it. When I look at the grand scheme of things, I am grateful for an opportunity to find happiness that is not granted to everyone. Yes, I did work for it, but I consider myself blessed to have had the resources to do so.Thanks for reminding me to create a gratitude list.
- Scott
Posted by MollieQ on April 25, 2009, at 2:24:43
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy » MollieQ, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2009, at 16:38:52
> He thinks that the reason I don't get along with mental health professionals is that most of them see me as in need of "fixing". And I resist being fixed. He says that perhaps he did too at one time. But that he doesn't any more.
Do you know what he means by this? Do you agree?
> I really do think you're right about my therapist and perhaps about the others too. But it's hard, when there seems to be a lot of negative reaction towards me, not to conclude that whatever is going on with others, some of it must have to do with me.
I'm sure some of it belongs to you (and some to them). But maybe not in the way you think. I understand what you are saying. My point is that it is unlikely to be some intrinsic quality about you, as your comments are implying, like some character fault, your oddness, appearance etc. To me it seems much more likely to be some behavior that you have exhibited toward many MH professionals. That behavior may be perfectly realistic and justified, by the way.
MH professionals have their own reactions, very human and probably fairly similar, to someone who is obviously not too keen on them. In their heart of hearts, they may feel rejected themselves and personalize in the same way as you (what is it in me that Dinah doesn't like?), especially if they've had other clients react to them in similar ways. They may also feel insecure professionally, doubt their own skills or ability to attract clients and draw them in. This is especially likely for referrals, when they have to tell the person who referred you to them that they were unable to attract and/or keep you. If they are at all narcissistic, they may feel you just don't "get" their many wonderful qualities and be dismissive of you in return. These are all just human reactions that they could have in response to your not wanting to work with them.
There could be loads of perfectly legitimate reasons why you don't like most MH professionals. They really may not offer you the relationship or type of assistance you want. That's just careful shopping on your part, IMO. There are a lot of well-meaning MH professionals out there who prompt a similar negative response in me, perhaps most I've seen as well. When a relationship is going well it tends to make both parties feel great, validated and attractive (in the broadest sense); a bad match or unsuccessful bonding tends to make both (especially the rejected party) feel bad about themselves in some way. That's the nature of human interactions. Some will project these feelings upon the client or blame the client for not liking them.
This is what I meant by it's a joint construction, not something that they (who operate on some "higher" level than you) see within you and judge as undesirable. In "their professional opinion" of course. If your T's observation has any accuracy, then perhaps it is because you were seeking something othered than what they offered, a different type of approach or empathy. Maybe "fixing" is just not what you had in mind and that's what they feel they do best, what they want to offer, whether or ot it's what you wanted or needed. Or maybe you are just picky. No problem there. Forgive me for saying this but I really don't like that your T's explanation made you feel socially defective or judged or wrong in some way. To me this was empathic failure on his part. It sounded to me like there was some projection there too, perhaps if the early days evoked defensive feelings. But nonetheless, he should be focusd on helping you work through these unrealistic and undoubtedly painful feelings that there's something unacceptable about you, rather than seeming to support and confirm the self-judging voice within you. He may just not get that, as you suggest, in which case he needs to work on himself in this area, and not just with you.
Admittedly, everything I'm saying (except my own experience) is all based on 2nd-hand info. But I have noticed that things you talk about in your threads tend to echo these themes.
I hope this makes sense and that you don't feel bad about any of it. My intention is just the opposite. I like to feel that I'm not projecting so much as relating and identifying :-)
Mollie
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2009, at 17:52:37
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy » Dinah, posted by MollieQ on April 25, 2009, at 2:24:43
> > He thinks that the reason I don't get along with mental health professionals is that most of them see me as in need of "fixing". And I resist being fixed. He says that perhaps he did too at one time. But that he doesn't any more.
>
> Do you know what he means by this? Do you agree?He says I present myself as being younger than I am chronologically, particularly when I'm in emotional me mode, rather than rational me mode. Since T2 told me flat out to grow up (in our first session) and T3 said it far more tactfully in our umpteenth session, I have to assume there's some validity to what he says.
> I'm sure some of it belongs to you (and some to them). But maybe not in the way you think. I understand what you are saying. My point is that it is unlikely to be some intrinsic quality about you, as your comments are implying, like some character fault, your oddness, appearance etc. To me it seems much more likely to be some behavior that you have exhibited toward many MH professionals. That behavior may be perfectly realistic and justified, by the way.I suppose for different professionals, it may have been different reasons. For example, biofeedback guy was a very aggressive, in your face, jerk who said some pretty presumptuous things about my therapist and our relationship on our *first* meeting. He also got mad at me because my blood pressure and body temp jumped when he entered the room.
I didn't think his behavior was appropriate and told him so. I think I can guess the biggest reason he didn't like me. :)
> Forgive me for saying this but I really don't like that your T's explanation made you feel socially defective or judged or wrong in some way.
My therapist will freely admit that he sees me as socially challenged. Call it schizotypal, or Asperger's or whatever it may be, he sees my psychopathology as getting in the way of social relationships. He was thrilled when I found Babble, and for the most part has been totally supportive of my time here because he considers this a level of social interaction I can tolerate and/or handle. He's also been very very supportive to the point of pushiness in my getting involved in real life social groups where I can feel accepted. My therapist apparently does not think my goal of weird dog lady hermit is one he wants me to pursue. He's delighted I've found one, and he reminds me all the time that I am accepted there. I am accepted in that real life group of people. They're exceptionally tolerant people, and I think some of them are perhaps are not totally unfamiliar with the sort of feelings I have. I'm very lucky to have found them. But my experience with them is not at all typical.
It's not pleasant for anyone, least of all me, to admit that there are people who are not all that socially desirable. I'm an overweight platterfaced, lank haired person who never wears makeup and often dresses badly, or oddly. Society might not be pleased to recognize it, but ugly people are treated differently. As are fat people. They've done tons of studies on this, and all studies have borne out the idea that people judge attractive people more favorably even on traits totally unrelated to appearance.
Social awkwardness just makes things worse. I have no ability to judge social rhythm at all. Any more than I can dance or clap in time to music. One on one, it might not be obvious. But with more than one person around, I'm likely to either be silent because I can never find an opportunity to enter a conversation, or three beats behind on conversational topics, or sadly I interrupt. Not because I don't care what others are saying, but because I find it impossible to correctly judge the correct moment to speak.
My eye contact is poor. I try to improve it, but I have real trouble with it. I can never figure out how it's done. How is it possible to make eye contact? I can meet one eye or the other, but how on earth do you do both?
I even walk funny. I have a bouncy toe walk that I've had since I was a child. Many have tried to eradicate it, but many have failed.
Some of my social problems may be anxiety related. Some may be neurological in basis. And some are just that when it comes right down to it, I'm lucky to get out the house with two matching shoes on. Comfort always beats out any other consideration to me, and I'm not willing to spend lots of time on my appearance. Not that it would make a huge difference. :)
Next time you see that dumpy middle aged woman in inexpensive clothes, with unattractive features, and blondish brownish thin lank hair possibly in braids, you could be looking at me.
My therapist isn't wrong in his assessment. I'm not wrong in my assessment. It's who I am. The most delightful people see past the surface and try to meet me on a deeper level. I try very hard not to push those people away out of a fear of being a burden to them. It's not always easy for me.
I think... That's just the way things are. Like Susan Boyle before she started to sing. It's a shame, yes. But it's probably deeply ingrained into our DNA for some long ago survival skills reason.
My therapist isn't the first to say this, and won't be the last. I remember my father nodding agreement when my uncle noted that I might do well in school, but at least people *liked* my brother. Or he had friends. Something like that.
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2009, at 17:57:31
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2009, at 17:52:37
The funnier thing is that before he grew fond of me, my therapist had no trouble talking about this, but I found it a difficult topic.
I still find it a difficult topic, but now I trust him enough to broach it. And he looks like I'm torturing him now. Apparently it is harder for him to talk about it now he's fond of me.
Posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2009, at 22:20:00
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2009, at 17:57:31
Dinah personally never knowing you or seeing you I find you a wonderful person. What I don't understand is the eye contact and toe walking as seems to me I've read of that before. But you have a husband, a lovely little boy and such a good heart for those babies of yours hate to see you put yourself down. It's what's inside that counts that's what I always see in others. Looks mean nothing to me . It what comes out of their heart. And your's is huge. Love Phillipa ps some self esteem work is in order for you.
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2009, at 6:49:37
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2009, at 22:20:00
The neurologist said the toe walking was mechanical due to a short something or another in my foot. So it's not the neurological kind that comes with autism.
I'll quit talking about this. I think it makes people here as uncomfortable as it makes my therapist. I have no wish to do that. :)
Posted by Phillipa on April 27, 2009, at 20:41:04
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on April 27, 2009, at 6:49:37
Dinah wasn't even thinking autism. Seriously. Are you okay today? Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2009, at 22:02:49
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on April 27, 2009, at 20:41:04
I'm fine.
I hope I didn't sound snappy. I don't feel that way.
It's just a hard topic for me.
Posted by Phillipa on April 27, 2009, at 22:36:20
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on April 27, 2009, at 22:02:49
No not at all topic dropped. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2009, at 8:32:55
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on April 27, 2009, at 22:36:20
It's just a bit frustrating, Phillipa. The sad truth are there are people who are easily liked by everyone they meet. People with good looks and effortless charm.
And there are people who swim upstream socially. Unattractive, lacking in social graces, social rhythm, etc. It's something our society doesn't like to recognize, and it's probably harder for people to discuss with those they care about.
But it's true.
Even my husband admits I'm socially challenged, and he loves me. Whenever I hold my own socially without sinking like a rock, he is sooo happy. He's one of those people who is easily liked.
Ah well. I know it's a hard topic for everyone.
My therapist says I have a beautiful smile that lights up my face. I don't. My mouth is way too small to have a beautiful face lighting smile. It's just something people say to the unattractive.
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2009, at 13:37:46
In reply to Re: Feeling melancholy, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2009, at 8:32:55
When my therapist is at his best he's so darn good. And he *really* knows how to take a hint. :) I love it when I'm able to identify what I need from him and he's able to pick up on his cue.
He swears that there's nothing *wrong* with me, and I believe that, since he also acknowledges that there are things about me that people find hard to connect to. He says I'm the only one I have any control over, and I'm the one he has in his office. We were kind of breaking those things down into the things I really can't change, the things I might be able to change, and the things I shouldn't even consider changing.
And he very warmly pointed out a few ways that my thinking is a bit distorted on the topic.
He really is great. He really is. It couldn't have been any more comfortable for him to say those things than it was for me to say them or hear them.
And at the end of the session, he gave me, at my request, a big hug and held it until I pulled away. I needed to feel like he really felt ok about me, and I think he understood that the tangible proof was important to me at that moment.
I've got a killer headache again. Maybe I could use a boring session or two before tackling this again.
Posted by Phillipa on April 28, 2009, at 20:39:59
In reply to Feeling better now, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2009, at 13:37:46
Dinah fantastic. To me you are beautiful heart and soul. And I don't know you just read your caring threads. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2009, at 21:04:12
In reply to Re: Feeling better now » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on April 28, 2009, at 20:39:59
Thanks, Phillipa. :)
Posted by Phillipa on April 28, 2009, at 22:06:04
In reply to Re: Feeling better now » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2009, at 21:04:12
Your're welcome and it's true. Love Phillipa
Posted by raisinb on April 28, 2009, at 22:27:02
In reply to Feeling better now, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2009, at 13:37:46
That sounds perfect. Makes me understand why you stay with him for such a long time.
I struggle too with the issue of self-acceptance vs. others' abilities to connect with me--the things that are inherent to me that give other people trouble or anxiety. That's one of the most valuable outcomes of therapy.
I am glad you are feeling better :)
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2009, at 11:55:37
In reply to Re: Feeling better now » Dinah, posted by raisinb on April 28, 2009, at 22:27:02
> That sounds perfect. Makes me understand why you stay with him for such a long time.
When he's great, he's golden. Good thing I can remember that the next session when he says something really stupid (like today). Still, he can be very very good at times. And no matter what, he's the only therapist/mommy I'm ever likely to have. :)
> I struggle too with the issue of self-acceptance vs. others' abilities to connect with me--the things that are inherent to me that give other people trouble or anxiety. That's one of the most valuable outcomes of therapy.
That's a tough one. I can see where my negative expectations do tend to cause me to push others away, even if they are trying to reach out to me. Because things have given people trouble in the past, I assume they'll give me trouble in the future.
My therapist and I talked a lot about self acceptance. I really do feel like I like myself quite well (my insides at least). I may even feel like I have qualities that others might enjoy, if they got to know me. Somehow I can hold that view simultaneously with the other.
>
> I am glad you are feeling better :)I am. It's feeling way more in perspective.
This is the end of the thread.
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