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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by JoniS on December 4, 2007, at 22:43:39
In reply to when my analyst begins talking..., posted by twinleaf on December 4, 2007, at 20:17:56
Posted by Wittgenstein on December 5, 2007, at 5:01:24
In reply to when my analyst begins talking..., posted by twinleaf on December 4, 2007, at 20:17:56
I enjoyed your post Twinleaf.
When I have these moments with my analyst they are special/precious to me too (and I always remember them and go over them again in my thoughts) - sometimes I feel I am avoiding 'the work' when one of us side-tracks - for example, if I glimpse something in his room and ask about it (or some other question that comes to mind that I want to ask about him) but they tend to bring us closer and prove serendipitously productive. Like with you, these moments tend to occur during the silences. It's funny, people always talk of awkward silences but silences can also be so comfortable.
The longer I see my analyst, the more I feel a desire to know more of him. In the beginning I was afraid it would be intrusive to ask, but one session he asked out of the blue if I knew the painter Lucian Freud (not sure how the topic came up but he already knew that I like art) and then he got a book from his desk with the artist's work and asked if I would like to borrow it. This was an important trust-building moment for me.
What kind of things does your analyst keep in his room? Mine has a lot of pictures and sculptures, besides the normal things. A couple of times I've asked about something and he's let me go over and pick it up to look closer - one time a wooden carving he'd brought back from Tanzania on a visit to his daughter. I guess if I would lie on the couch these types of interactions would less frequently arise, which would be a great shame.
Witti
Posted by seldomseen on December 5, 2007, at 6:42:04
In reply to when my analyst begins talking..., posted by twinleaf on December 4, 2007, at 20:17:56
Those moments are usually when most of the work in therapy is done.
I have said it before and I will say it again - it's usually the relationship with the therapist that is so healing.
For me, I learned to love because I loved my therapist first, I am to trust because I finally trusted him.
It may be a little off topic, but when I was really "in therapy" (i'm terminating now), I developed a total fascination with Freud. I read everything about him, carried pictures of him with me all the time. Looking back on it, it seems really strange, but it was really just a safe place to put all the transference toward my own therapist.
ANYWAY, my T went abroad for a vacation and visited the Freud museum. He brought me back several souvenirs from the museum. I couldn't believe it! He was thinking about me on vacation.
In short, I hear you - the little things mean a lot.
It sounds like you have a wonderful T.
Seldom.
Posted by annierose on December 5, 2007, at 6:42:14
In reply to when my analyst begins talking..., posted by twinleaf on December 4, 2007, at 20:17:56
What makes those moments stand out for me, is that they are little everyday exchanges between two people that know each other and are interested in learning more. Yes, they do reveal (often) a little something about our therapist that we may not have known prior. A human experience ... not just client/therapist.
By these pauses in my therapy, I told my therapist I construct a picture of who she is outside of the office ... her likes, dislikes, hobbies, interests.
Witti - I lie on the couch and these moments still occur for me. I still notice changes in the office upon my arrival and take note.
Posted by rskontos on December 5, 2007, at 8:52:50
In reply to Re: when my analyst begins talking..., posted by annierose on December 5, 2007, at 6:42:14
I think this is the most comforting moment for me to hear this thread and
Seldom, >>For me, I learned to love because I loved my therapist first, I am to trust because I finally trusted him>> this statement is the one that finally makes sense to me that it is ok to feel something for your therapist and to trust them........
I have been scared. I am not as far as you guys, and I am way messed up, my voices are too strong and I am not in control and must try to find a way to get control as my therapist says, I will at some point but I am in denial too so I have that to overcome and she says it is ok that some will still not trust her or the therapy itself. And we don't. But to see this statement it gives me comfort in trusting her some and maybe thinking about liking her alittle. You see I have avoided even seeing as a person cause I am afraid. She to me is an office right now. I couldnt afford to get attached or need another a person that might hurt me. I have had enough of that for one lifetime. Numbness is better than dealing with one more. But after what you wrote well I think maybe I might be able to love myself even which has always been my biggest issue I think.
And the rest of this thread, from Twinleaf's beautiful post of her awesome relationship with her t and the work she has put forth, to clarity of Witt (whom writes so well it makes me envious sometimes just kidding) and Annierose your making your T seem more like a person in your mind helps me to see that I need to make my T a person to me. Not an office. I have often cut her off when she tries to do that cause I don't want to see her that way. My bad. I hope she sees why I have done that. But I guess now I need to explain my actions next time...
Thanks guys for this insightful post/thread. Thanks so much for sharing. It has helped this messed up mind right now so much. I don't know if you read my post about my last therapy session but it was one of my worst so this thread helps alot. When your t sees the worst/well so far the worst, there maybe more bad to come who knows it is hard to get over it. Maybe that is why I didn't want to see her as too real.
You guys have helped me see how harmful that could be. You are so far in your therapy I see I have a long way to go.....
I am thrilled for you all....YOu see so wise and I am the like the little child with school still in front of me. Thanks so much
Take care each of you and good luck. Please post more. It sure helps.....
rk
Posted by Poet on December 5, 2007, at 9:05:48
In reply to when my analyst begins talking..., posted by twinleaf on December 4, 2007, at 20:17:56
Hi Twinleaf,
My first pdoc was an analyst, I just saw him for meds managment, but I always wondered what it would be like to lie on that couch. Thanks for letting us know you experience.
Poet
Posted by Wittgenstein on December 5, 2007, at 13:48:35
In reply to Re: when my analyst begins talking..., posted by annierose on December 5, 2007, at 6:42:14
Annierose, it's nice to hear that these moments still happen when lying on the couch. I guess I just assumed (wrongly) that it would be different somehow. I've only had two sessions lying down and didn't feel right. That was some months ago and probably too early. I like to have my analyst in view, even though I mostly only offer him a quick glance. I think it's a safety thing. Perhaps further down the line I might try the couch again.
I hope you don't mind me asking, but have you found lying down has helped you - did you always lie down or first sit for your sessions? Was the transition easy or strange at first?
Witti
Posted by Wittgenstein on December 5, 2007, at 14:14:17
In reply to Re: when my analyst begins talking..., posted by rskontos on December 5, 2007, at 8:52:50
Rskontos,
I have been reading the threads (including your posts) despite not posting for a while. I think it's hard to compare progress in therapy. We are all working through different things, some requiring more time than others.
I imagine processing your last session has required tremendous courage and strength on your part, and hopefully it will be a step in bringing you to a safer place in the long term. From my experience, therapy seems to go round in circles - hard hard times and then relief and some good times, with some nice warm moments scattered in between. The good times give such healing but it only works like that having gone through the bad/difficult stuff first.
A few sessions ago I shared with my T about the worst thing I'd ever done, the moment in my past that brings me the greatest shame and self-disgust (something that happened in the span of a few seconds when I was a teenager). After the session I was terrified what he might think, anxious, regretting - what next? But since then we worked on it and now I feel a level of acceptance greater than I could have felt had this been kept in the dark, as well as being more rational about it. I know this can't really be compared to your last session but I hope what your last session does do is bring something positive for you in the long-term.
Take care,
Witti
Posted by Wittgenstein on December 5, 2007, at 14:14:53
In reply to Re: when my analyst begins talking..., posted by Wittgenstein on December 5, 2007, at 14:14:17
Posted by rskontos on December 5, 2007, at 15:10:46
In reply to Re: when my analyst begins talking..., posted by Wittgenstein on December 5, 2007, at 14:14:17
Thanks for your post. You are so right. I am still not sure about it. I had another breakdown today at home so things are very volatile inside me. I need to get someone to be a boss like Muffled told me but hard right now. I know why it happened today not sure how to stop it though. My insides are too jumbled. I am reading a book recommended by Realme and wanted to read the book mentioned by TwinLeaf next.
I am awaiting the warm moments. I know this is just the bad and I want to get well. I am so worried sometimes I am too bad off to get there. I hope not that is just one of worst parts talking. Today I started having really dark thoughts. My biggest problem is I will just hide everything until it all goes dark. The book I am reading says that therapy needs to be intense if you are having trouble with your day to day life. I think I am going to mention this to my T. since I am ....
Thanks for your kind post. I so understand how you felt about telling your T something you felt was a low point in your life.. And that you shared that with me makes me feel like I am not alone in having T know or see a very bad side and still having to face them. I have a feeling that isn't the worst of it, sigh....... I do think in the long run it will bring something good or the rest of the worst out so I can get better like you are doing. Thanks so much for the encouragement.
You take care too,
rskontos
Posted by annierose on December 5, 2007, at 22:05:47
In reply to Re: when my analyst begins talking... » annierose, posted by Wittgenstein on December 5, 2007, at 13:48:35
Yes I have found it helpful but it wasn't an easy transition. I resisted it so my t put the conversation to rest. After six months or so, I brought it up and told her I would try it for 3 weeks. I knew I would hate it the first few times and I was right. The first time it felt like a train was running through my head --- loudly. I felt "seen" and "vulnerable". My t was very patient and didn't push me to stay lying down. She encouraged me to sit up or lie down --- but I was determined to see it through my three week trial period.
Now ... 4 years later ... I find lying down very comforting. In fact, when I chose to sit up, I find it harder. Go figure.
It's hard to know if I censor less - but that's the theory. I think it's true. But it could also be true I censor less because I have been in this relationship longer too.
I think it's worth a try. You can always go back and forth - at least I know I can in my therapy.
Posted by twinleaf on December 6, 2007, at 0:14:28
In reply to when my analyst begins talking..., posted by twinleaf on December 4, 2007, at 20:17:56
I just wanted to note that, although I go to an analyst, I'm not lying on the couch. He seems to think it might be a good thing for me to do, later, but I think I really do need to be able to look at him, at least for now.
RSK, I don't think we, or I, are in any way "further ahead" than you are. I know that I am not giving anything like a full or rounded picture of all the things I am struggling with, nor do I give a full picture of what my therapy is like. It is sometimes funny and wonderful- and I might post about that. Other times, it is terrifying, discouraging, confusing, painful. I almost never post about those times.
I think you were talking mostly about daring, or not daring, to allow your therapist to become important to you, and expressing how painful it would be to trust her and then be hurt or rejected. In therapy, even a tiny misattunement or misunderstanding can feel like a rejection. A lot of what I do (with coaching from him), is to give voice to my feelings of hurt, rejection, anger- no matter how tiny and unimportant they seem. He invariably tells me that he is glad I told him, and good interchanges usually follow.. It is such a good way to build trust, bit by bit, and it's something everyone can do- even people who are at the beginning in terms of trust and attachment. I do think it's so important to try to do that. I've read that, in treating trauma, trust-building and getting as close as you can to a secure attachment should happen before you try to deal with the traumas themselves.
Because I tend to record the good moments here, people probably don't think of what might be happening the moment before, or the moment after. Often, I'll retreat into a fearful frame of mind, and we will start all over to work towards comfort and safety. It's just what we do, all the time!
We aren't talking so much about the traumas right now; it's more about the relationship. I hope you won't be discouraged, but will give yourself full credit for what you've already done, and will look forward to the time when your therapy sessions become steadily less painful and more rewarding. That will happen.
Posted by twinleaf on December 6, 2007, at 0:34:50
In reply to Re: when my analyst begins talking... » twinleaf, posted by Wittgenstein on December 5, 2007, at 5:01:24
Your analyst sounds so nice, and very cultured! Mine doesn't have sculptures or objects from other countries, the way yours does, but he does have photographs of mountain scenes which he took himself mounted on the walls. And he has hundreds of books. When I look at them, I see, in addition to psychoanalytic pnes, books on poetry, history, Russian literature.
Giving you the book on Lucien Freud was such a nice moment.
Posted by rskontos on December 6, 2007, at 9:11:06
In reply to Re: when my analyst begins talking..., posted by twinleaf on December 6, 2007, at 0:14:28
Twinleaf, thanks so much for that. You are right. And I really appreciate you taking the time for sharing that about your therapy. I tend to share the good and the bad. Right now there is more bad. I dont see the good although she is pointing it out to me, I am too fragmented to see it. I had ordered the book you put in your one thread to read and I am reading the Coping with Trauma book that Realme recommended. It is good and I know the other one will be helpful too.
Again thanks for the support and encouragement. rsk
Posted by seldomseen on December 6, 2007, at 9:19:34
In reply to Re: when my analyst begins talking..., posted by rskontos on December 5, 2007, at 8:52:50
I'm so glad you were able to find comfort in my words. This january I will have been in therapy for 8 years and it has certainly been a tortuous road to healing.
Learning to love and learning to trust have been the center of my therapy. It's so odd, but being numb and alone is one kind of pain, but opening up to others is certainly another different kind of pain.
My therapist has certainly hurt me (not intentionally, but he did), he has also scared me to death and appeared to violate my trust.
I can not tell you the times I exploded at my therapist, threatened to quit, accused him of every bad thing possible.
But a little voice kept telling me not to bolt, to stay the course and to talk talk talk talk about how everything made me feel.
So much of my therapy was about learning to tolerate the let downs, the disappointments and the hurt while still valuing and nurturing the loving relationship.
I think learning to do this is the key to recovery (and I'm not there yet)and opening the door to all the wonderful things that other people can bring to your life.
I am continually amazed at the number of times on these boards that I have seen people that have been hurt beyond all recognition by their childhood, spouses etc... But miraculously we still maintain the desire to love.
It's a struggle to leave our defenses behind, but we still work and work and try and try.
The road in front of you is long, but it is worth the trip.
Keep talking to your therapist and keep reaching out to those parts of you that you don't like and seek to love those as well.
We'll be here.
I treat babble as therapy for therapy.
Love to you
Seldom.
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2007, at 10:31:53
In reply to Re: when my analyst begins talking..., posted by twinleaf on December 6, 2007, at 0:14:28
Yes, but I think you need to give yourself credit. You're able to make good use of the silences, to open yourself to them.
Silences always seem like expectations to me. Or signs that I'm not using therapy. I frantically rush to fill them, or fold my arms and stubbornly refuse to fill them.
I do remember once when I was very upset that my therapist started talking to me about those items in his office that I was staring at. Very gently. Apparently everything in his office is there for a reason. He was explaining the symbolism and inviting me to hold them.
I didn't respond all that well. I refused to hold them. Yet still, after all this time, I remember that brief incident in a way I might not remember exchanges of far greater depth.
Posted by rskontos on December 6, 2007, at 11:20:14
In reply to I would like to reiterate what Twinleaf said » rskontos, posted by seldomseen on December 6, 2007, at 9:19:34
Seldon, thanks so much. I really needed that cause today I cant stop the hurting and crying. I just stupidly google to see how pills I could take just to make me sense for a long time. I have cried everyday cause it so much trying to help my son through his teenage stuff, my daughter is away at school and I am suppose to do the things she cant and my husband is gone for weeks at a time and being mom and dad sucks now when I can't be me even. My emotions are too unsettled by all of this and I can't even be a good mom. I have so many things I need to do to make decisions and I just can't. I am like a helpless baby right now.I tried calling my H to get his input but he is busy. I need to be busy but I can't even make a decision about what to do first. So instead I sit and cry all day. Or fight with myself. Or feel defeated. Right now my head seem blank. I am not a real person. Everything that involves going out around people well uggggg. I resent the things my college age daughter left behind for me to take care of. If I was better well that would be ok but I am not. And none of them know the struggle I am dealing with becuase it is easier to pretend I am ok then for them to take part in this. I am sorry I need to go now. Thanks guys for listening. rk
Posted by seldomseen on December 6, 2007, at 12:45:59
In reply to Re: I would like to reiterate what Twinleaf said, posted by rskontos on December 6, 2007, at 11:20:14
Hey sweetie, I've been there. The crying and the indecision can really take over.
What I did was to just pick one thing, don't think about it, and just do it. Then you can cry more after that.
It really doesn't matter if its emptying the dishwasher or fluffing the pillows on the couch or going to get the mail.
Just pick one thing and do it.
It's a long road out, but you can make it.
Seldom.
Posted by twinleaf on December 6, 2007, at 14:15:38
In reply to Re: when my analyst begins talking... » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2007, at 10:31:53
Dinah, would you ever think of getting up now and exploring the objects- maybe finding one to hold? If he has chosen them for a purpose, it sounds as if the purpose may be a sort of brief play therapy- seeing what comes up when you hold or stroke something. Or, he may have chosen them because they are personally meaningful. In that case, he may have been offering a window for you to find out more about HIS feelings- the way my T has been doing. Just thinking- I guess it's never too late.
Posted by muffled on December 6, 2007, at 15:02:43
In reply to I would like to reiterate what Twinleaf said » rskontos, posted by seldomseen on December 6, 2007, at 9:19:34
> I'm so glad you were able to find comfort in my words. This january I will have been in therapy for 8 years and it has certainly been a tortuous road to healing.
>
> Learning to love and learning to trust have been the center of my therapy. It's so odd, but being numb and alone is one kind of pain, but opening up to others is certainly another different kind of pain.
>
> My therapist has certainly hurt me (not intentionally, but he did), he has also scared me to death and appeared to violate my trust.
>
> I can not tell you the times I exploded at my therapist, threatened to quit, accused him of every bad thing possible.
>
> But a little voice kept telling me not to bolt, to stay the course and to talk talk talk talk about how everything made me feel.
>
> So much of my therapy was about learning to tolerate the let downs, the disappointments and the hurt while still valuing and nurturing the loving relationship.
>
> I think learning to do this is the key to recovery (and I'm not there yet)and opening the door to all the wonderful things that other people can bring to your life.
>
> I am continually amazed at the number of times on these boards that I have seen people that have been hurt beyond all recognition by their childhood, spouses etc... But miraculously we still maintain the desire to love.
>
> It's a struggle to leave our defenses behind, but we still work and work and try and try.
>
> The road in front of you is long, but it is worth the trip.
>
> Keep talking to your therapist and keep reaching out to those parts of you that you don't like and seek to love those as well.
>
> We'll be here.
>
> I treat babble as therapy for therapy.
>
> Love to you
>
> Seldom.
>
>Thanks for that
M
Posted by muffled on December 6, 2007, at 15:23:21
In reply to when my analyst begins talking..., posted by twinleaf on December 4, 2007, at 20:17:56
Posted by twinleaf on December 6, 2007, at 16:21:36
In reply to You T sounds sweet and good :-) Thx for post :-) (nm) » twinleaf, posted by muffled on December 6, 2007, at 15:23:21
Thanks, muffled. I know I'm very lucky. He's very modest, really, and very honest and genuine. I was stunned when he said, "your analyst is your fate". I think it's true. but it's scary to think about, especially if, like me, you have had a bad analyst previously.
As far as terminations, he has an interesting view: he feels that it's fine to keep on coming as long as you feel it's helpful. That sounds like it's going to be forever! (like Dinah's)
Posted by rskontos on December 6, 2007, at 17:07:37
In reply to Re: I would like to reiterate what Twinleaf said » rskontos, posted by seldomseen on December 6, 2007, at 12:45:59
You guys are great. Everyone, here thanks. I finally got past the crying and went to see my babies, my horses. My baby, the two year and my older two. Animal therapy and it worked. They gave me a calm. It was cold but the barn is semi-heated so not too bad and tomorrow I think I will ride if I can and the stupid phone man comes in time. I picked one thing, my babies and they did help. So thanks.
A big thanks to Babblers for being here now. It has been a rough few days and hopefully I will get a break so I can refill my tearducts. I didn't think I could produce that many tears.
Man my neck is tense from it too. thanks and take care everyone....rk
Posted by Wittgenstein on December 6, 2007, at 17:13:45
In reply to Re: Thanks Seldom, I went to see my babies(horses), posted by rskontos on December 6, 2007, at 17:07:37
Rskontos, I'm so happy today has been a little better for you - animals are such healers. (I'm getting my first dog next Wednesday and am ever so excited.)
I hope you have a chance to ride tomorrow to help release some of that tension.
Witti
Posted by Wittgenstein on December 6, 2007, at 17:39:58
In reply to Re: Thanks Seldom, I went to see my babies(horses), posted by rskontos on December 6, 2007, at 17:07:37
I want to add a couple of things.
Firstly, I also tend to post only when I'm managing things, which probably gives a skewed perspective of where I am in therapy. When I'm down, my self-esteem issues make me too paranoid to continue things as normal. (And given my frequency of posting it seems I'm down more than I'm managing.) When I'm down everywhere I turn I believe that people are laughing at me and aching with the hatred and disgust they must feel toward me (not that I feel anyone is unjustified to feel that way) - normally I can keep these thoughts at bay and rationalise.
So I feel a bit of a cheat/deceiver - I don't mean it to be that way but I just can't be around when I'm in a bad place. In a way, I envy and admire those who can be open and ask for help when they're having a rough time of it as well as being around when things are on an even keel.
Secondly, Twinleaf, you said about your analyst's thoughts on termination. It took me until just a few weeks ago to bring up the question of 'how long will this last/how will it end?' - but got a similar answer - that it's my initiative when that happens, that it will happen only if I'm ready and when coming to see him is no longer useful for me - it brought a feeling of such safety to hear that. I'm glad you have the same freedom.
Witti
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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