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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by RealMe on October 25, 2007, at 22:31:32
Tomorrow at therapy I have made the committment to myself to talk to my therapist about my feelings for him and how things get so contaminated and my fears and anxieties. I am really scared to death, and I know I will want to get angry with him afterwards, and so I wish we had more time. I don't have to go to work tomorrow; I am taking the day off as one of my nieces is getting married this weekend. So, I can go home after therapy and hide if necessary; I just hope I don't feel like continuing the drive north to the north woods never to be seen again. I promise I won't do that tomorrow.
As I think about talking about my feelings for him tomorrow, I start feeling like I want to cry, and I am starting to feel really alone again. Maybe this is not such a good idea. I don't know.
RealMe
Posted by twinleaf on October 25, 2007, at 23:09:02
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on, posted by RealMe on October 25, 2007, at 22:31:32
I think it's a wonderful idea. Think of where you were just a few weeks ago- getting angry and then feeling you were not a good fit- and that maybe you should even leave him. Now you are understanding that the angry feelings are mostly a reaction to ones that are loving and intimate- they are going to keep you safe from getting close- and then getting really hurt. I can't imagine anything more useful than being at a point where you can share all this with him.
P.S. I'm talking as though it's easy! It's terribly hard. But I'm going
to try to do it, too, at least a bit more, in my Friday appointment.
Posted by seldomseen on October 26, 2007, at 7:42:41
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on, posted by RealMe on October 25, 2007, at 22:31:32
I know this will be tough. You are very brave to even consider doing talking about this.
At least for me, it was a benchmark day in my recovery (usually I just ran from the way I felt).
You have a right to expect that your T will be kind, honest and there to help you process this feeling. I don't think that you will be alone at all.
I'll be thinking of you today. Let us know how it goes.
Seldom.
Posted by rskontos on October 26, 2007, at 9:26:11
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on, posted by seldomseen on October 26, 2007, at 7:42:41
Realme, You are brave and making great progress. For me it was a milestone just to tell my T the misunderstandings I had made. It is never easy to tell them what we think no matter the topic because the nature of what we tell them is intimate. You are just going much deeper. But it is an important step to get healing. I am proud you are going for it. It is an important measure of trust too. You are opening up to someone else too. You said it too in the subject you are taking a risk head on. That is major progress!!! What courage I am proud of you. You are so way ahead of me. So go for and no matter the outcome be proud of yourself!! rk
Posted by DAisym on October 26, 2007, at 20:42:32
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on, posted by rskontos on October 26, 2007, at 9:26:11
I hope it went well today. Knowing what you've said about your therapist, I'm sure he handled your feelings with respect and care.
These discussions are really important, I think we learn a lot about ourselves from them. And I think it is important to recognize that this isn't just a one time, blurt-it-out-and-you're-done kind of thing. Telling him how you feel, and asking how he feels, is an evolving discussion.
Recently I was talking with my therapist about my feelings and he mentioned a time when I thought I was in love with him. I asked him if he had expectations that this had changed - was I supposed to stop loving him at some point? He said no, that wasn't what he meant nor wanted. He was trying to point out how hard it was for me to tell him that and yet I did and we talked all about it. So the new shift in my feelings should be open to discussion with some trust in our history of talking things over together.
Even with the trust - it is still excruciatingly hard. But it deepens things. I hope you find that too.
Posted by RealMe on October 27, 2007, at 0:30:11
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on, posted by DAisym on October 26, 2007, at 20:42:32
Thank you everyone for your responses. I think it went well today. I started out by talking about my performance evaluation that was okay, but not as good as last year. Unfortunately, It was because I missed 54 days of work last year for vacation and sick time. 6 weeks of it was when I did ECT. I was expecting my idiot boss to do this and was just thankful that it was good enough to get the highest percentage pay increase I could get anyway. Besides it is just his opinion, and he has always been a jerk that I try to be nice to
Then we talked about how I was afraid because my feelings from therapy are starting to intrude into my work, at least I am more aware of my feelings now like--saw a guy for something like a DUI who had ECT (only 4) in January 2006, and he is still having the exact same short-term memory problems as I have plus the word-finding difficulties. I also saw a women this week who has one of the most horrific histories and life I have come across---horrible physical abuse, sexual abuse, mental abuse, and it has contined plus she became addicted to heroin and cocaine. I think I mentioned these two people already. And then there is the last sex offender I saw--he is a guy in his 40's and his victim is 11, and so I felt myself feeling like I don't like this guy one bit. I did not let my feelings get in the way for any of these people, but I sure was aware of their impact on me. My T said my feelings about these people where always there but buried, and this is why I have been so depressed. I am simplifying what he said, but this was the essense of it, and he said it will get better for me as I can intergrate my past experiences with who I am now. So, I just need to be careful not to slant things one way or another.
I then talked about my feelings for him, my T, and this started with me first mentioning about how he laughed when I was saying last time that when I was younger I didn't get into drugs, I just went crazy. I was laughing too, and I wondered why he laughed at that. He said I have this innocence and impishness about me that is very charming. I asked my husband about this later, and he said this is one of the things that attracted him to me. Anyway, I am not remembering exactly what it was, I think just thinking about telling him how I feel, that I started to feel angry toward him, and I told him I was starting to feel angry, and I think because I want to push him away again. He was shaking his head yes, and so I told him that I have a lot of upset over how if I saw a guy who was attractive, and he asked me out on a date or not, I would have sex with him or get to know him so I could have sex with him, and then sometimes that is all it was. I said I don't think I have ever had a relationship with a man that didn't become sexual (other than therapists, of course). So then I told him I sometimes feel very sexually attracted to him, and it really upsets me because I don't see how I can ever feel close and trusting or like he said, that we would have an intimate relationship (on an emotional level). I said I just couldn't see it because everytime I start to feel close to him, I start thinking I want to have sex with him. I said that with my therapist at Menninger's, I wanted him to be my father, and so though it is not exactly the same, I thought it was similar, and he agreed. Well, there was a brief silence, and then, I can't remember his exact words, and I wish I could, but he said something to the effect that maybe I could now I could find out what it is like to have a relationship with a man that is different, that I could feel close without it meaning there has to be sex as part of that relationship. That's not what he said, but it was to say sort of that I am correct that our relationship won't ever be sexual, and from talking about this, I can come to see that not all men just want to jump in my pants, that I can share intimate things with him, and I will be safe.
Then, I told him I had found in my mother's things that I am still going through little by little, my kindergarten and first grade report cards. We did not get grades, but the teacher would write a summary of each quarter. So, he said "Oh wow," and said he really wanted to hear what was said. Part of the not so trusting me was thinkin, "Yah I bet you would like to know what they said." But I went ahead, and read about the kindergarten one when I had a lot of spunk that got squashed, and can be seen from what was there plus what happened with me being spanked by my kindergarten teacher. He felt I was in the right, and that felt really good. Long stroy. Anyway, I told him I was sobbing when I read especially the third quarter of first grade. The first two quarters the teacher talks about how timid and shy I am and that I am so shy I don't even want to read outloud in front of the class, and yet she knows I read well. So, she has the idea that I should read outloud at home. Little did she know that not only did I read outloud at home, I had it all memoriezed and would recite it from memory. Anyway, the third quarter, the teacher talked about how I was doing better and how recently I had saved a seat next to me for her in the reading circle. She said I had always shunned people and groups, and so I found this so sad. I don't remember being so shy then, but I got better in first grade and was fine in second grade, but between second and third is when the abuse started, and I was back to being someone who had crawled back into her shell. Whatever. So it was a good session, and he ended by saying that we need to keep taling about these things, etc. So, that is it, and I wish my day could have ended with feeling better, but it did not.
My husband and I got into a huge fight, and he was raging at me. He gets angry when it seems he tells me something, and a week later I don't remember. I told him I am sorry but I can't help it, that I am sorry I ever got the ECT. Once we were both calmed down, he said he did not like to be reminded that I got ECT because he was so opposed to it, and he feels horrible that I have been damaged by it. He thinks he should have been extreme or something and said he would divorce me if I got ECT. I said I think I would have done it anyway as I was so depressed. So, we talked things out. I asked him to please not get upset with me if I forget or if I have to ask him again how to do something, and he said he will try.
RealMe
Posted by twinleaf on October 27, 2007, at 1:01:39
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on, posted by RealMe on October 27, 2007, at 0:30:11
From your summary of the session, I think it went REALLY well. You and he talked about some of the hardest things, and it seems like it wasn't too scary- and that you also got a lot of support and encouragement to continue along the path you've set out on. I'm so sorry about the lingering short-term memory and word-finding problems; I do hope they disappear gradually.
I went in with the same goal as you, but my hour was completely different! We spent a lot of time- about half- talking about what it was like to look at one another (as compared to my looking away). We just explored all the moment-by-moment aspects of it- did it seem too aggressive to look, or too intimate. Was I afraid that I might see in his face that he didn't like me, or, more frightening, would I see that he did? Did I know what he looked like when I wasn't looking at him? (not very clearly). I haven't seen too many, if any, people writing here about something like this, but I can say that for me it was extremely valuable. It seemed like I've been wanting to find out these basic things my whole life- and now I have a chance to at least explore the questions. He never actually answers anything- but he doesn't need to, really. There aren't any anwers that can be given in words.
We seem to do something along these lines for the first half of every session. Then there comes a moment when I feel really safe with him- that he's really with me. Then, I go right away to the abuse, and find I'm really able to talk about it and feel and know what it was like.
Posted by RealMe on October 27, 2007, at 1:30:43
In reply to How it went... » RealMe, posted by twinleaf on October 27, 2007, at 1:01:39
***I went in with the same goal as you, but my hour was completely different! We spent a lot of time- about half- talking about what it was like to look at one another (as compared to my looking away). We just explored all the moment-by-moment aspects of it- did it seem too aggressive to look, or too intimate. Was I afraid that I might see in his face that he didn't like me, or, more frightening, would I see that he did? Did I know what he looked like when I wasn't looking at him? (not very clearly). I haven't seen too many, if any, people writing here about something like this, but I can say that for me it was extremely valuable. It seemed like I've been wanting to find out these basic things my whole life- and now I have a chance to at least explore the questions. He never actually answers anything- but he doesn't need to, really. There aren't any anwers that can be given in words.***
>
What you write just really strikes me as I used to talk about that with my therapist from Menninger's, and I have thought about it with current therapist. I can still picture my old T from Menningers even though he is deceased and I had not seen him in probably 8 years.I am not sure why, if it is the ECT or not, but I have trouble remembering what my therapist looks like between sessions even. I have had some trouble at work too with seeing someone and knowing I know that person but for the life of me not remembering who they are. I suspect that is the ECT. Anyway, I had a picture of my old T from Menninger's (from a unit scrape book--I grabed it out when he left on vacation for a month). Otherwise I did not think I could keep him in mind and remember what he looked like--a different reason than now. Part of me wants to ask my therapist for a picture of him so I don't forget what he looks like especially if I decide to lie on the couch. I am just too embarrassed to ask him though. Maybe I should get my phone out during a session and pretend to look something up and take his picture. God how weird is that to even think. Oh crap, I will just say something to him about it all and see what he says.
Yes, for abuse survivors, it is very easy to read into someone's face, eyes what is not really there. I say things to my T like, "You look angry," and he says stuff like, "Tell me more about that," and then of course I make a face, and he laughs. I do try though to figure out why I am seeing that in his face or eyes when I know it really isn't there.
I think I would like your T too.
RealMe
Posted by I need a hug on October 27, 2007, at 5:05:28
In reply to How it went... » RealMe, posted by twinleaf on October 27, 2007, at 1:01:39
I thought I was totally out of my mind because I wanted a picture of my therapist!!! I lost contact with her for a while when she changed jobs and was looking for a picture to remember her by. Try checking the website for the hospital that your T is affiliated with. They sometimes have a find a physician site with a picture and short bio. I found my T in 2 different places. Happy hunting!
Posted by JoniS on October 27, 2007, at 6:32:16
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on, posted by RealMe on October 27, 2007, at 0:30:11
Good work RealMe. I'm proud of you. You talked about difficult stuff with T and with H. Those are both hard! I admire your perseverence. Press On!
Joni
Posted by rskontos on October 27, 2007, at 10:47:37
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on » RealMe, posted by JoniS on October 27, 2007, at 6:32:16
You RealMe, something you keep saying about memory loss struck a cord in me. I know that most of yours is due to ECT you had but I am wondering something. I have a profound memory loss too and I did not have anything like you so my question is do you or anyone else think that extreme dissociation can mess with memory too. I find now that I can not keep loads of information in my memory banks short or longterm. Especially linear memory. I don't think I am switching alot so that isn't it. I am not having a lot of fugue I am still having some but I know when I have those. I can be told something and I remember being told the information I just can not remember it. My family doesn't believe me because usually I remember stuff like this really well. They think I am playing a trick on them but I am not. It is getting really bad. So I am wondering if the extreme dissociation is causing it. And if anyone has this issue.
Your therapy sounds like it went well. A difficult session but a good one. And your H and your while it is tough on both sounds like you are trying to keep the lines of communication open and it is working. You are making great progress. It really helps to hear how you are doing. Thanks so much for sharing.
rk
Posted by DAisym on October 27, 2007, at 16:15:21
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on, posted by rskontos on October 27, 2007, at 10:47:37
It may be that whatever is causing you to dissociate is interfering with your memory. Huge emotional turmoil tends to cloud things and it is hard to recall the facts of an event. The brain is recording your feelings and the chemicals are different when we are upset. Plus the right side of your brain is taking over and later, with recall, you are using the left side mostly. So yes, dissociation can interfere with memory - your initial retention is bad so your recall is bad - but more probably it is the trigger that starts it all.
I hate when this happens!
Posted by DAisym on October 27, 2007, at 16:20:31
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on, posted by RealMe on October 27, 2007, at 0:30:11
You were very brave to be so open. I really like his response - now you have an opportunity to have a relationship with a man in a different way.
Knowing things can never be sexual doesn't mean that you won't or shouldn't have those feelings still. Part of the chemistry between two people is still embedded in biological systems. As much as we might wish it, we can't control everything. :)
Do you think that your feelings, of wanting to have sex with him, are coming from a defensive place - "it is inevitable so I might as well get it over with" - or a power place, "having sex with someone gives me power and pull with them or over them." Or some other place? I've been trying to figure this out for myself lately.
You really are doing amazing work for having been with this therapist for such a short period of time. I'm in the middle of these discussions too but it has been over 4 years for me!
Posted by rskontos on October 27, 2007, at 17:13:51
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on » RealMe, posted by DAisym on October 27, 2007, at 16:20:31
DAisym and RealMe both of you in your open discussion of the sexual aspects have really made me think about my own issues on sex and have helped to make me think deeper about it. I admire you both for your frankness. The discussions about made me in my last therapy session start a discussion about my own and your statement Daisym about power place "having sex with someone gives me power and pull with them or over them as RealMe stated really struck a cord with me. That is what I did. I am now married and not so much now. But in my single years I did that or sometimes I did the defensive thing. My current T is my only therapist so I don' t have that part going on now. But you guys have helped me tap into more of why I did the things I did and my current opinion on sex. Which I need to work on to get healthy about. I always thought I changed when I became a mother but I think I just split in my thoughts but I always had issues regarding it and didn't recognize why or what exactly.
Do you think we sometimes feel for our T's because they feel safe and that opens up sexual feelings or is it always from the CSA issues or abuse issues?
Realme you are really doing amazing things and it has inspired me to be more open with my T. It has been a short time for me with my T and she commented on that last time. I don't think we are going to fast and if we were she would slow us down I am sure. But I wanted to say thanks to you and everyone else for the inspiration. rk
Posted by RealMe on October 28, 2007, at 9:28:12
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on, posted by rskontos on October 27, 2007, at 10:47:37
Yes; dissociation can cause lose of access to memory. Whether one is ever able to access the memory depends on the age of the person when they started to dissoicate. So, very young, probably won't access the memories on a verbal level, but maybe yes on a nonverbal level. Later in childhood, dissociated memories can be accessed eventually with therapy and is a very difficult time in therapy--some people but not all need the hospital for a brief time when this occurs.
Memory loss due to brain damage is different. It is not likely to ever return. I have long term memories that are coming back (from ECT) and so they were never gone. I just couldn't access them, but with hints and other people saying things about past events, I can start to remember.
The memory problems I have now have to do with reading or hearing about something new, processing it, and storing it into memory. The new memories are just not getting processes and stored. I am going to look into how I might facilitate that happening if it is possible. I am not sure it is possible beyond what I do now which is to try my best to journal every day, even about mundane things. If I don't do this with therapy for sure, then it is gone from session to session even though we meet twice per week. I also look at my appointments for the day to see who I saw. Conversations are the worst,though, as my husband gets angry with me when I say I forgot something he told me the day before or maybe even earlier that day. No matter how many times I repeat something over and over in my head, it is gone if I don't write it down right away.
RealMe
Posted by RealMe on October 28, 2007, at 9:33:59
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on » RealMe, posted by DAisym on October 27, 2007, at 16:20:31
Daisy
You got me to thinking; why do I have sexual feeling for my T; they come and go; Why when I was dating was I so willing to have sex with a guy right away. I guess then I thought I owed it to them for being nice and taking me to dinner or a movie, etc. Maybe this is why I think it about my therapist too. It is a way to pay him for being nice to me. I think this was the reason back in childhood. This man wants to have sex with me, and he buys me little presents, and so as much as it is painful, I will do it. Same with my older brother. Actually he was the first. He would let me look at his stamp collection or look through his telescope, etc if I would let him have his way with me.
I never thought about the power part. I will have to give that more thought. As for something inevitable, I guess that fits more with the way of giving sex to a guy because he wants it and he's been nice to me, and so it is inevitable, sort of.
RealMe
Posted by RealMe on October 28, 2007, at 9:39:43
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on, posted by rskontos on October 27, 2007, at 17:13:51
I picked a male therapist because I knew I had huge issues with men, no father, etc etc. My T at Menninger's was the good father figure, and I can never thank him enough for helping me to feel good about men on a level that includes warmth and caring. My current T is more my age, and so the sexual stuff is coming up. My last T was around my age too, but the sexual stuff, I never felt for him. I am not sure why, maybe becasue he was more business like. This T is warm and caring, and so now instead of the father stuff, the sexual stuff is coming up. This is what I am thinking. Does the CSA have anything to do with it? For me it is a variety of factors, like growing up without a father or father figure present; the sexual abuse, and also a mother who was unfortunately very paranoid and who would do crazy mentally abusive stuff.
RealMe
Posted by happyflower on October 28, 2007, at 19:36:04
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on » rskontos, posted by RealMe on October 28, 2007, at 9:39:43
WOW Real me! You have been doing such hard and awesome work in therapy. What a session, and look how brave you are. I am really proud of the progress you are making and the awareness of the meaning of sex to you and how it developed is very amazing reflection of yourself. I think you found the right T for you to work this stuff out. Take care!
Posted by RealMe on October 28, 2007, at 23:41:36
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on, posted by happyflower on October 28, 2007, at 19:36:04
Thanks happyflower, and I am sending warm thoughts your way.
RealMe
Posted by antigua3 on October 30, 2007, at 8:45:27
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on » rskontos, posted by RealMe on October 28, 2007, at 9:39:43
I think the csa, in combo with the other items you mentioned, has a LOT to do with it. Just the fact that you can ask is huge. Keep unraveling it--you are doing such a great job in opening up.
antigua
Posted by RealMe on October 30, 2007, at 23:54:16
In reply to Re: therapy tomorrow; will take the risk head-on » RealMe, posted by antigua3 on October 30, 2007, at 8:45:27
Thanks antigua. Just when I thought things were moving forward, I got zinged again. My T made a comment about how my husband giving me the silent treatment for several days is like my mother used to do when she was angry with me as a child. She would not speak to me for days. She would put my meals on the table but not talk to me as I had been "BAD." So, T makes this comment about it being a tragic mismatch, I think referring to me and my husband which really shocked me, though I have thought it myself. I am not sure this is what he meant, though, and so I will have to ask him on Friday. Today was spent talking about the idiot husband.
RealMe (want to go back to being OzLand or Oz for short). Being in Kansas in the 80's and 90's saved my life.
This is the end of the thread.
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