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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by RealMe on September 2, 2007, at 3:01:37
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » RealMe, posted by DAisym on September 2, 2007, at 1:02:43
Hi
I am not doing therapy with people right now, just evaluations. I don't want to try to do therapy while I am so up and down and feel so wretched sometimes.
I already went through a lot of therapy and worked on most of my mother issues years ago; I knew that by not working on csa stuff, someday it would come back and bite me. It has. After therapy for around 11 years, I went back to school for my doctorate and then did a postdoctoral fellowship where my old therapist was.
So, my old therapist died the end of 2004, and this is when all the unresolved stuff came back. I had not seen him in over 10 years and was doing fairly well. When I heard he had died, I was devastated. I saw him altoghether inpatient and then outpatient for a total of 11 years, I think it was. He was pschoanalytically oriented. So after I decided to see someone, that person is the one who kept pushing the ECT. He said he was "psychodynamic." Hah; that was a joke right there. A generic what???
So, now the analyst I see says he thinks I should lie on the couch too. No way; at least not know. He has a two chairs that are at right angles with the couch at either end, and I would sit in the chair way across from him. I sat on the couch last time at the end furthest from him but still closer than the chair and pictured what it would be like if I sad at the other end. We would be playing footsy with each other, we would be that close; no way! There is where my head would be if I would lie down. UGH. He would be so close to my head he could practically whisper in my ear. That just spokes me out. One day maybe I will lie down, but not now. I put a pillow like a barricade on the side of me that is closest to him. This all sounds so silly, but it isn't is it??
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by ClearSkies on September 2, 2007, at 10:07:20
In reply to Perfectly Matched, posted by DAisym on September 1, 2007, at 13:20:00
>
> And I'd like to also point out to Joni, and Sunny and Antigua and others -- a great deal of why therapy is working has to do with you all, and your courage to talk about the relationship and all the other hard things. So your therapist is probably really glad to have you as a client - you make them look good!
>
>My therapist said that amongst therapists it's well known that clients are chosen so as to make the T's look successful - so if we hit it off, or are able to bring up the difficult subjects and get through to the tough bits, we help to make them look good.
A mutual admiration society.cs
Posted by annierose on September 2, 2007, at 11:54:12
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » DAisym, posted by RealMe on September 2, 2007, at 3:01:37
Real Me and Daisy -
The couch thing is scary. I announced at the end of one session (as I was exiting the door) I would lay down next time. I didn't want to have another discussion regarding the couch. She had encouraged me previously and there was no way in h*ll I was going to lay down.
I chose that appointment date because it was an early evening appointment. SO ... I've never admitted this to anyone, I had a glass of wine before I went. Didn't help much.
The entire time I layed there, I heard a train crashing through my head. It was loud. The swirling, rushing sound was unbelievable ... especially because the room was silent. She asked me if I had a headache. Silly t. I explained the static in my brain and how vulnerable I felt. She stayed with me, calming me, trying just to be with me in the moment, not asking anything of me but to tell her all the feelings that were coming up for me right then and there.
Although it was difficult, I told her I promised myself that I would lie down for 3 weeks, 9 sessions. After that, I would decide.
There are times it is utterly relaxing lying on her couch. Other times, I want to jump up and sit. The few times I have sat up since then, (3 years?) I find equally difficult.
I hope when you feel comfortable enough, you would give it a go a few times. You really can't decide after the first session since it is like any new experience, the first time is the hardest.
I do find that I self-edit less. My eyes are closed and thoughts float up without all the censoring. It's harder and easier because I can't see her reaction, I must trust it. Sometimes I'll ask, "Are you rolling your eyes?" And she always reassures me she's not. I am very attuned to her voice, the inflections, the tone, the choices of words she uses.
It's different.
Posted by RealMe on September 2, 2007, at 22:42:47
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long + Dasiy » RealMe, posted by annierose on September 2, 2007, at 11:54:12
Thanks so much for your post. I hope I can lie on the couch sooner rather than later. Right now it was a big step for me to even sit closer to him, and he acknowledged this. The very idea of being that close to him without being able to see him really scares me. When I was in my teens and after all sorts of csa which continued, my older brother became schizophrenic and violent, and I would go to bed at night not sure I wouldn't be killed in my sleep. He almost killed me on more than one occasion and my mother too. No father in the home. So, to have my head so close to him is very threatening. I know in my head he won't kill me, but I have to get used to sitting closer first.
I only go twice per week due to a number of factors. He would like me to come three times per week, but his schedule is full, and I just don't know if I want that much intensity right now anyway. So we settled on twice per week for a year. Then see what we might do. Thanks, though. I really appreciate your post.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by Dinah on September 5, 2007, at 9:47:15
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » Dinah, posted by DAisym on September 1, 2007, at 13:13:34
I'm thinking there are still large gaps in therapy training. Would you believe that I once asked a message board of *therapists* about sexualized transference, and not one of them knew the ethics rules on it? I had to refer them to the APA video. :(
It seems like some things they expect the therapists to pick up along the way. But when you do that, there's no guarantee they'll pick up the right message.
My therapist finds Babble fascinating. I'm sure he wouldn't look here on his own even if I hadn't forbidden it, but he loves hearing about it. I think we have a lot to share.
Posted by Dinah on September 5, 2007, at 9:48:07
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » DAisym, posted by Dinah on September 5, 2007, at 9:47:15
Perhaps we ought to form a group to give seminars. ;)
Posted by raisinb on September 5, 2007, at 12:14:46
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long + Dasiy » RealMe, posted by annierose on September 2, 2007, at 11:54:12
I just wanted to say to annierose--don't worry about the wine. I went through a period (after I'd admitted to my T that I was attracted to her), of having at least one, sometimes two, drinks before therapy (and they were usually a lot stronger than wine).
She never said anything about me being half-crocked! I don't know if she noticed or not.
Posted by annierose on September 5, 2007, at 17:06:39
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long + Dasiy, posted by raisinb on September 5, 2007, at 12:14:46
I did admit to my therapist at the time I had a drink --- just not to anyone else. Sadly, it didn't take the edge off at all.
Posted by DAisym on September 5, 2007, at 22:22:30
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » DAisym, posted by Dinah on September 5, 2007, at 9:47:15
My therapist has started to use Babble against me! When I wail about things, particularly how long I'm taking to work through all of this stuff, he'll say, "isn't there anyone on the Board that is in long term therapy? Do you think they are taking too long?" I tell him that's not fair! And he grins.
I think the seminar idea is a great one. In my fellowship training I'm always the one saying, "um...excuse me...but don't you think that mom might need x, or y or z" -- based on the theraputic relationship. I get a lot of "oh yeah, I never thought about it like that." *sigh* I did finally "out" myself at the end of last year's class to one of my teachers about being in long term, intensive therapy. He said he was jealous. :0
Posted by DAisym on September 5, 2007, at 22:39:28
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - » raisinb, posted by annierose on September 5, 2007, at 17:06:39
I hate this. I have this amazing sense of connection and I don't feel so alone with the abuse and then *poof* -- it gives way to thoughts of "you shouldn't feel so good about this" or "you are weak to need your therapist like this" -- and then wham - I'm angry at him for teasing me with the idea that I'm not alone. Because really I am.
He says I'm not. He was floored at my interpretations of some of the things he said, -- like when he asked me on Thursday if I was going to be safe over the weekend. I threw it back at him on Monday, "I guess if I don't take my own life than I'm fine. I'm safe. Doesn't matter that I'm not really OK, as long as I'm alive to show up at my next session." Ouch, ouch, ouch. I was so mean. And then of course I fell apart sobbing. And shut down and couldn't talk. (One cute moment - I told him "I'm going away - shutting down." And he kind of sounded like a little kid - "WHY?! Don't do that. Come back!" I tried but didn't do very well. That was Tuesday. Today was better.)
After many other things he finally said, "I think when we get close, you get scared. It all gets mixed up for you, feeling close feels good, which then feels dangerous. You can't sort it all out, so you just run from it. I think I'd be mad at me too for the confusion. But I won't hurt you, I promised I wouldn't intentionally hurt you."
After two days of talking about this it is better. Not completely OK, but better. He said THIS is my therapy. Learning to be close, to trust myself and to feel safe. I thought I'd get the spiral speech again but instead I got the "chips" speech. A while ago I was so worried about when he would get sick of me -- I said it felt like using up all my chips to call him or whatever. He said I could have 999,999 chips. Today he asked me how many I thought I had left - I thought I'd used at least 150,000. He said no worries, he'd let me know when I got down to a mere 10,000. "What happens then?" I asked. "We start over" he says.
Start over?! No way. Thank goodness the session was over.
But seriously - I really do want advice on how to hang on to the good, connected feeling. How do you just allow it?
Posted by RealMe on September 5, 2007, at 22:50:22
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » DAisym, posted by Dinah on September 5, 2007, at 9:47:15
Are you speaking of the American Psychiatric Association or the American Psychological Association??
The American Psychological Association has strict guidelines (but not as strict as in the past) regarding this sort of thing.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by muffled on September 5, 2007, at 23:43:11
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - it was fleeting - trigger, posted by DAisym on September 5, 2007, at 22:39:28
I have been kinda avoiding this thread...
Its really is kinda cool though.
Anyhow, from previos post,>After many other things he finally said, "I think when we get close, you get scared. It all gets mixed up for you, feeling close feels good, which then feels dangerous. You can't sort it all out, so you just run from it. I think I'd be mad at me too for the confusion. But I won't hurt you, I promised I wouldn't intentionally hurt you."
*My T has said something almost identical to me. Its nice to see that your T is clear on *intentionally*.
>But seriously - I really do want advice on how to hang on to the good, connected feeling. How do you just allow it?
*Sigh...that I don't know....thats why I was avoiding this thread...I'm not 'there' yet. I am too afraid.
I admire you achieving what you have. Its amazing. A testimony to both of you guys perseverence.
I was thinking, you write so beautifully of your T experience...mebbe thats fodder for a book? I dunno.
So the line that caught me was "how do you just allow it", cuz I can't even allow it. I am not allowed.
Maybe if someone knows how to just allow it, it will give me a clue how to do it in the first place.
It does make me very angry with myself for being so ridiculous.
I got no excuses.
Thats why I say I am an idiot(and people say no your not...)
Anyhow, nuff bout me, I just wanted to thank you for a beautiful, hopeful thread.
Thx, take care,
Muffled
(hey tell your T muffled says HI!!!!)
:-)
Posted by antigua3 on September 6, 2007, at 7:28:45
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - it was fleeting - trigger, posted by DAisym on September 5, 2007, at 22:39:28
Yes, it can be fleeting, and you can't clutch it tight sometimes because it's made of air in a way. All I can say is to enjoy it when it happens, try not to feel threatened when it leaves and believe that it will come back. It's part of the ebb and flow. Sometimes you have to let it go, and it will come back stronger because of your relationship with your T.
Take care,
antigua
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2007, at 7:36:06
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » Dinah, posted by RealMe on September 5, 2007, at 22:50:22
http://www.apa.org/videos/4310767.html
The question was what a therapist should do if a client expressed sexual feelings for them. And since that's not particularly unusual in therapy settings, I thought it was odd that they didn't seem comfortable about knowing how to handle it.
The board I spoke of was not for any particular sort of therapist or degree. Just therapists in general.
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2007, at 7:37:49
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » Dinah, posted by DAisym on September 5, 2007, at 22:22:30
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2007, at 7:52:55
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - it was fleeting - trigger, posted by DAisym on September 5, 2007, at 22:39:28
> I hate this. I have this amazing sense of connection and I don't feel so alone with the abuse and then *poof* -- it gives way to thoughts of "you shouldn't feel so good about this" or "you are weak to need your therapist like this" -- and then wham - I'm angry at him for teasing me with the idea that I'm not alone. Because really I am.
You know, it's kind of funny (not hah hah funny) that in the end I managed to grasp both of these things at the same time, when before I struggled with holding on to the connection far more than I do now.
It wasn't until I really was forced to acknowledge that in the end I was alone that I was able to accept the caring he did offer, believe in that caring (for the most part), and be able to hang on to it.
So that this week I'm doing badly, and he asked if I'd like to come in an extra day, and I responded that I didn't have any money left in my checking account, and he told me to call him if I needed him. At one point that would have stung a bit. The reminder of the paid nature of our relationship. But this time that only flitted briefly through my mind before I accepted his offer to call. Although I haven't.
So there's this whole completely incompatible sense of knowing that yes, I'm alone in the most fundamental matter. I have no one to rely on but myself. But yes, I'm never alone. There are people who care about me, and who want the best for me, and who send a bit of that with me as I go along. Not just my therapist, but lots of people. I can rely on their caring, I can rely on their help and company through my journey. In some ways. And yet I am alone in other ways.
It's weird. But somehow it feels better than it did before, before I held those incompatible ideas. I don't think I'm explaining it well. Something along the lines of having it dramatically thrust upon me that I can't rely on him in some ways freed me up to trust more in what I can rely on.
Ugh. Hard to explain.
Posted by antigua3 on September 6, 2007, at 9:16:01
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - it was fleeting - trigger » DAisym, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2007, at 7:52:55
"It's weird. But somehow it feels better than it did before, before I held those incompatible ideas. I don't think I'm explaining it well. Something along the lines of having it dramatically thrust upon me that I can't rely on him in some ways freed me up to trust more in what I can rely on."
I know exactly what you mean. I feel the same way about my pdoc. Sometimes I think that I'm still being hugely defensive because I don't always know where the line is on whether or not he cares, how much, etc., but at this point it's easier to push him away and make my boundaries stricter than his so that I feel protected. He can't give me what I want, but he helps me to understand how I can give it to myself.
antigua
Posted by RealMe on September 6, 2007, at 17:04:41
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » Dinah, posted by DAisym on September 5, 2007, at 22:22:30
When I did my postdoc training at Menninger's, they wanted everyone in analysis. So, most Menninger trained people have had analysis. It is how one becomes an analyst, and so I am not surprissed at the response you got.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by RealMe on September 6, 2007, at 17:08:53
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » RealMe, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2007, at 7:36:06
You are probably right; most would not know how to handle it as it is not discussed in school per se. I know we talked about how to handle it in my posdoc training, but then this was a psychoanalytic institution. Maybe others think if they keep it very brief, it won't happen. Fat chance.
RealMe
(OzLand)
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2007, at 12:10:18
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » Dinah, posted by RealMe on September 6, 2007, at 17:08:53
> You are probably right; most would not know how to handle it as it is not discussed in school per se. I know we talked about how to handle it in my posdoc training, but then this was a psychoanalytic institution. Maybe others think if they keep it very brief, it won't happen. Fat chance.
>
> RealMe
> (OzLand)The "I don't DO transference" school of thought. As if "transference" isn't a fairly normal part of many human interactions, even if you don't call it that.
I think it's that way with all professions really. College teaches the theory, and you're supposed to apply the theory to the hands on work. The difference is that where there's a work product there is a de facto very very long training period. Even as you move up the chain, your end product is out there to view, and you get lots of feedback and guidance. But in therapy, even with supervision and internship, most of the "product" is out of view. The internship and supervision is of shorter duration. And I'd think there would be a greater temptation to spin your activities to your supervisor, since the product really isn't in such plain view.
Add to that the many paths to becoming a therapist, each with its own training...
I've often jokingly said that therapists in training should be required to read Babble and In Session. But I'm not sure it's really funny. I think informed and interested consumers could add a lot to education.
Posted by RealMe on September 7, 2007, at 19:28:41
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » RealMe, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2007, at 12:10:18
Dinah
I had to audiotape sessions on internship, and so no getting around what happened in sessions. Plus I had more supervison than most people get on an internship and by Menninger trained people. At Menninger's for my postdoc, I had tons of supervision as well, and with therapy patients, we had to do process notes. This means you have to learn to reconstruct the session from memory. Starting out with:
Patient: xxxxx.
Therapist: xxxx
Patient: xxxx
etc.It is really hard to do, and as the research says, it is easiest to remember the beginning and end and less easy to remember the middle, but one does get better at it. Why would I or anyone who had the opportunityh to train where I did want to squander the training by trying to pull a fast one over a supervisor??? It would have been darn hard to do there too. I sure didn't try to do anything of the sort. I guess I am not so cynical about this, but I know it comes up in therapy and we talked about how to handle things of this sort in group supervision as well as in individual supervison. It is just too important a topic to ignore in my opinion.
RealMe (OzLand)
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2007, at 20:40:27
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » Dinah, posted by RealMe on September 7, 2007, at 19:28:41
I meant no offense. Perhaps I am a bit cynical. The therapy room just seems so insulated - much more so than most work settings. And certainly the people I come across at work don't seem eager to showcase their flaws. Neither do I for that matter. Even though flaws are pretty visible no matter what level of experience you have.
On the other hand, having my sessions tape recorded is so far from what I'd accept that it didn't even come to mind. My therapist once had a tape recorder sitting in his room, clearly not running and with no tape in it, and I still asked him to unplug it. Trust is not easy for me. Trusting a tape recorder would be impossible. I even checked for the longest time that he took minimal notes.
Me? Paranoid?
:)
I have heard about videotaped sessions, so I do know they happen.
Posted by RealMe on September 7, 2007, at 21:09:11
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » RealMe, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2007, at 20:40:27
> I meant no offense. Perhaps I am a bit cynical. The therapy room just seems so insulated - much more so than most work settings. And certainly the people I come across at work don't seem eager to showcase their flaws. Neither do I for that matter. Even though flaws are pretty visible no matter what level of experience you have.
**You are absolutely correct, and more and more people are getting through training programs than should. When I got my ECT at the University of Chicago Hospitals, I saw the discharge summary the resident did on me. I was horrified, and I was told he would be dealt with and thanked for bringing to their attention his clear inepptitute. He couldn't even get my age right. I was talking to my T about this today and how this resident would never have made it through Menninger's, and he said that where I trained he would not have even gotten into the program. So, training is really different. I was blessed to get into such an outstanding training program, but I am not naive to the fact that more and more people are being churned through psychiatry, psychology, and social work programs. Things have losened up, and I don't know why. Used to be master's level psychology people could not get licensed, and now they can. I started out working with a master's degree but under the supervision of a Ph.D.
I realize it is me personally that cannot fathom pretending something is happening in therapy with a patient when actually something else is going on. It is truely sad that there are so many therapists ill equiped to do therapy. I often think that some of those folks do a worse job than I would do now even while I work on my sh*t, and yet I think I should take care of certain stuff before moving back into doing therapy again. Doing forensic evaluations is one way to keep myself in the field Typically I see people only once, and sometimes two or three times, and then that is it.
No offense taken. I just wanted to make a point that it is not my experience from training, etc. and is not how it is with all therapists.**
>
> On the other hand, having my sessions tape recorded is so far from what I'd accept that it didn't even come to mind. My therapist once had a tape recorder sitting in his room, clearly not running and with no tape in it, and I still asked him to unplug it. Trust is not easy for me. Trusting a tape recorder would be impossible. I even checked for the longest time that he took minimal notes.
>
> Me? Paranoid?
>I remember one time at Menninger's, my therapist audiotaped an "interview" with me for a conference in Japan. I have the transcript, and it is enlightening. I was also videotaped doing some psych testing with a psychologist at Menningers, and I recall he was "sweating" more than me. Guess he was thinking about all the people who would see him and how he did. LOL. He was later director of psychology when I did my postdoc there, and he was/is a really nice and smart guy. Yep, none of us is perfect.
> :)
>
> I have heard about videotaped sessions, so I do know they happen.Yes, in graduate school, I had to videotape a couple of sessions, and as is true with audiotapes, you and the client soon forget about the taping. I would not really want it now, though, and I was only willing to do it at Menninger's as I felt it would help with training psychiatrists in another country.
RealMe
Posted by sunnydays on September 7, 2007, at 21:44:54
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long, posted by RealMe on September 7, 2007, at 21:09:11
I just had one little comment - I haven't been watching Babble super closely, so I'm a little out of what this thread is about. But I just wanted to say that I don't think a degree necessarily can tell you how qualified someone is. My previous therapist was a Ph.D. psychologist, regarded as an expert in trauma, which was my issue, had several teaching positions at area hospitals and gave lots of lectures. Yet we spent most of my sessions talking about nothing at all important, or about him or his daughter, and sometimes he talked so much I couldn't get a word in edgewise.
My current T, who is wonderful, has a master's in social work. He is an amazing T. He doesn't work under supervision and he actually does some training of the trainee Ph.D. students that work at the counseling center where I go.
So a degree's not everything where qualifications go. A lot I think has to do with personality of the T and also the client and how they click.
sunnydays
Posted by RealMe on September 7, 2007, at 22:06:54
In reply to Re: Magic Moment - very long » RealMe, posted by sunnydays on September 7, 2007, at 21:44:54
I don't disagree; Menninger's had some of the best psychiatrists, psychologists, and social workers in the country.
RealMe
This is the end of the thread.
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