![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by B2chica on August 23, 2007, at 11:40:35
i think one of my inner kids
wants to kill me.
i've been having S thoughts. i'm kinda down...but it's the intrusive negative thoughts that are really getting to me.
it's not even that i feel bad enough to want to end my life...but it's almost like i have someone in my head saying...'you must do it', you need to die', 'you've GOT to end it!'
i don't feel it warrants a hospital visit as i feel i have control enough yet to NOT act on these thoughts...but they hurt.they started off REALLY strong this morning and here at work it's a little better cuz i can distract, but ANYtime there is a lull in work wham...there they are.
last week...or wait this week...whenever, at therapy my teen came out for the first time. i'm guessing these feelings are kind of a left over, or overflow from that???
i don't know.but my call out is for help...advice. i'm not sure what i need to do.
i mean normally thinking of my little girl helps but even this morning it was like she's further and further away in my mind. that these thoughts are taking up most of my mind and discarding all my normal 'helplers'.
i don't really want to call my T cuz i don't feel like its a 911 kind of thing.but i am getting more and more scared.
can i have some advice please
b2c.
Posted by 10derheart on August 23, 2007, at 12:29:57
In reply to i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER**, posted by B2chica on August 23, 2007, at 11:40:35
B2, I don't think it has to be a 911 to call your T. I'll bet your T. would WANT you to call about this...I really do. Please think about it....
I'm sorry this is happening to you. I was thinking....can the adult part of you speak firmly to the teen....or reason with her in your head at all...even it it feels fake at first, not effective, whatever? Tell her, "no, that's NOT going to happen. That's NOT an option...I'll listen to your pain but we draw the line at anything about 'ending it all."
D*amm*t, I'm not explaining this the way I envision it in my head. Its like....not to say to her that she CAN'T think and speak about suicidal feelings, because you 'both' KNOW how deep some hurts go, and those are only natural and they are NOT bad to have. BUT - that the idea of taking charge and stating you *must* do anything is where her turn to listen starts and adult B2 takes over with love and firmness and says, "No - stop, I/we will find a different relief - together." Maybe ask her, "Don't you need to find a way to stop being scared and aching, instead of needing to die? I will do that together with you, but I won't do the other thing." Does any of that make sense?
Now, B2 this may to all total cr*p. Be careful, too, I mean - this may be too intense to take too far without your T. present, I know. I don't know where you are inside with talking to the teen or anything, and only YOU know if this is possible - or the WORST idea you ever heard. I'm just saying sometimes inner conversations like that have worked for me, with LOTS of repetition. Like a mantra - but longer, you know? It's something to fill up the scary, anxious space right after the S. thoughts come - like a plan that's in place - even if it doesn't feel like it's working, i.e., making those thoughts/feelings disappear, but at least a routine to do each time.
Please, please disregard all of this if it's useless, or worse, possibly harmful. I'm just shooting from the hip here...
((B2)) You take care and stay safe. This WILL pass...teens' moods usually change rapidly! (<weak attempt at humor) You're going to be okay....okay?
Posted by B2chica on August 23, 2007, at 13:07:34
In reply to Re: i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER** » B2chica, posted by 10derheart on August 23, 2007, at 12:29:57
Thank You 10derheart for responding.
what's hard is the feeling can come and go. and i just feel stupid calling her if i'm 'fine' at that moment...i mean what do i say...i do and don't feel suicidal, but i wont act on it, i think it was cuz of last session but don't know...i don't need to come in but...there it is...
i mean i don't even know what i'd need from her?
i feel like a moron calling her.and i was a little awkward about it but i tried to 'talk' to teen cuz i'm guessing that's what/who it is. but didn't do anything. but maybe she needs to hear from someone else??
i tried saying that it's ok for her to feel that but to save it for session.
-but i did like what you said about me working with her...(and i love and need humor...funny but also TRUE! ;^)
in fact right after i wrote i went to a 'joke' website hoping that would help...i just don't know if i can call her...but there's this part of me that is afraid that if i don't, it will get worse...??
Posted by muffled on August 23, 2007, at 13:10:53
In reply to i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER**, posted by B2chica on August 23, 2007, at 11:40:35
> i think one of my inner kids
> wants to kill me.*well, thats entirely possible, my son says to my dotter, I'm gonna kill you, and he half means it, but not really...
But what I am trying to say, and I do NOT know that this is the case, but its something i have struggled with, is the fact that my internal kids ARE kids, and behave and experience life as a kid. Its very weird to me, but over and over and over again, its proven to be the case, and has helped HUGELY in me understanding them and how/why they react to things the way they do. This is my experience. I can't say for you. But it could be some hysteria on the part of a kid...> i've been having S thoughts. i'm kinda down...but it's the intrusive negative thoughts that are really getting to me.
**Sigh, they can be awfully consuming at times...esp when I tired or stressed.
When I took seroquel it helped with all the emotional lability and kinda calmed things, but gave me wicked munchies, so I don't take it unless i'm desprate, and then usus only for a few days to get me over a bad patch.
I guess what I try and do, is figger out WHO it is thats upset and why (no easy task...) and sometimes it can help.
Bizzarrely enuf (to me anyways) I do have a part that just loves to pitch in and try and help w/internal turmoil, and she sometimes does. I have NO idea how this works, or what she does, because I have no sense of it, it goes on beyond my ability to know.> it's not even that i feel bad enough to want to end my life...but it's almost like i have someone in my head saying...'you must do it', you need to die', 'you've GOT to end it!'
**Hmmm. Does sound like someones a little freaked. Sigh, I call my one of those TOWWTD (the one who wants to die), and she can be quite noisy, but so far I have been able(or WE have been able, to keep under wraps. For me, its more hysteria for her, and my only fear is that she would impulsively hurt us somehow one time.
> i don't feel it warrants a hospital visit as i feel i have control enough yet to NOT act on these thoughts...but they hurt.
**yeah, it tiring to deal with. Like I say, there may be a med you can take to calm this down when it happens, and with being in T, it may well happen sometimes...
>
> they started off REALLY strong this morning and here at work it's a little better cuz i can distract, but ANYtime there is a lull in work wham...there they are.**yup. Guess you can try to tell her that its OK. Doesn't work for me, but who knows. If you have someone inside who is helpful potentially, you could try and enlist their help. I guess tranquilizers 'might ' help, I dunno. For me the seroquel calms things down. I'm sorry i'm not much help here, mine is just so hysterical I just can't reach her, but it does help me to know that shes a freaked out kid, and that I DO seem to be able to override her hysteria. But it sucks, yup, it surely can be consuming, but I bet she will calm down eventually. Sometimes a calm phone message from my T helps...then we can listen to it over and over as neccessary. Actually speaking to my T makes me nervous, but the messages are nice.
>
> last week...or wait this week...whenever, at therapy my teen came out for the first time. i'm guessing these feelings are kind of a left over, or overflow from that???
> i don't know.**yup, somebodys freaked. It has been very confusing to me all this stuff, and the various reactions to things. My best asset has been journaling to try and sort things out. I find I can even communicate w/others somewhat thru writing.
>
> but my call out is for help...advice. i'm not sure what i need to do.**I'm sorry, I have no clear cut answers, but it does get easier. Just try to accept the others, hear them and accept them. Treat them and respond to them according to their age and you will have much better success. My ikid, we initially fought like cats and dogs, we totally didn't understand one another, but now she is my helper and a great kid, go figger.
> i mean normally thinking of my little girl helps but even this morning it was like she's further and further away in my mind. that these thoughts are taking up most of my mind and discarding all my normal 'helplers'.
**S'ok B2, my irl kids get the back burner too sometimes, thats why we trying to sort stuff out, so that this don't happen so much. Don't mean I love them any less, though mebbe it feels like it, but it just means I got work to do in dealing with 'stuff'.
> i don't really want to call my T cuz i don't feel like its a 911 kind of thing.
**And it may well not be. I can't know. Its gonna be your call, but if it does seem to be getting out of control and/or esp if you feel your getting very dissociated, then its best to call T to get her to help you get a handle on whats happeneing and see if you need to take further action, and/or consider some meds.Just when you call, you need to make it very clear that you are in alot of distress, sometimes thats very hard to do when dissociated. Maybe you can write a script ahead, and/or have a code word thats easy to remember that will alert your T that you are in trouble. Its a good backup thot.
I think you will be fine. I think its a part thats upset, and having emotions, and its distressing when these emots come seemingly out of the blue, cuz they are comming from a diff part.
Be safe B2, try not to let her bug you too much, try and be nice to all of you.
((B2)) hugs if you want them.
>
> but i am getting more and more scared.
> can i have some advice please
> b2c.**Like I said, having a plan w/T to contact her with a code word can be very comforting. Also T message to listen to. You already have awareness of parts and when you getting dissociated badly, so you got good tools.
You'll do OK B2.
Take care,
I'm glad your asking for help, thats a good thing to.
Muffled
Posted by B2chica on August 23, 2007, at 13:25:49
In reply to Re: i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER** » B2chica, posted by muffled on August 23, 2007, at 13:10:53
i hate to say it but part of me does wish i was back on my wellbutrin and zyprexa (even though i gained weight), it worked.
but still nursing and not sure i can take either...i guess i should ask pdoc at next appt.
maybe i'll try some benedryl for now...-that's a good idea of getting other kid(s) to help out.
the thing is..you're VERY right...someone is freaked out in there...but i have this weird feeling its not anyone i know. that it might not even be teen. i mean she is FULL of anger and likes to SI, but i don't know that she's suicidal??
it's nice to hear someone understand about IRL kids. i truly love her to bits and pieces and i don't want to take my life away from her...but it's like this 'thing' is blocking out and not letting me access these good things/thoughts.
the more i talk about it...i think the feeling is slowly creeping in again, i'm starting to get scared feeling again. maybe i better make a call to T. i guess at least let her know where i'm at and she can call back if she feels its needed...
i REALLY like the code word idea...i would like to talk to her about this next session.
and its SO much easier to ask for help here at babble than IRL...don't know why..please to thank you muffy
b2c
Posted by B2chica on August 23, 2007, at 14:00:58
In reply to i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER**, posted by B2chica on August 23, 2007, at 11:40:35
ok, so now i feel EXTRA stupid.
i made the call to T. left a message that barely sounded like English. i had this nice thing written down and started to panic and couldn't read any of it...so i don't even know what i ended up saying.
ANYWAY to make life EVEN better, after i called i started to dissociate....and although i was really fuzzy i think (sometimes i'm not sure if stuff is real or not) but i THINK i called her back-(not as me) and sternly told her to forget message and DON"T call me.
so since this is fresh in my mind i'm pretty sure i really did it even though it doesn't seem too real. but im pretty sure i did.
so what, do i call her YET AGAIN and tell her IF i did leave another message to ignore THAT one and yes call me. or do i just leave it alone and wait for her to call me (incase i didn't really call her that second time), or just so i don't seem like a freggin idiot!
God i HATE THIS...my life feels RUINED!!
i Don't even freaking know what's going on anymore!
and i'm feeling SO scared right now i took two benedryl to hopefully calm me down!
i'm at work and it's now affecting my ability to even get off this chair!
Posted by Poet on August 23, 2007, at 14:22:47
In reply to Re: i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER**, posted by B2chica on August 23, 2007, at 14:00:58
Hi B2Chica,
I've left similar messages on my T's voicemail and the worst message to date was left on Dr. Clueless' voicemail. It was at 2 a.m. when I hadn't slept in 36 hours. Both called me back.
Maybe if your T hasn't called before late this afternoon, leave that third message? I would hope that she would realize that you are not in a good state and that she should call no matter what, but if she doesn't call soon, I say call her again. I'll bet you're not the only client who has left conflicting messages.
I have a suicidal inner child, too, she's 18, long story short I had a plan and a date and she's stuck in that moment. I am so sorry your inner child is trying to kill you. I do think you need to tell your T, I hope she calls you soon.
((((B2Chica and Inner Kid)))))
Poet
Posted by JoniS on August 23, 2007, at 14:37:22
In reply to Re: i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER**, posted by B2chica on August 23, 2007, at 14:00:58
So sorry you are feeling this way. I can only offer concern and support. (I have no experience in this area) You were brave to post on Babble and you were brave to call your T. Even though it got a litle jumbled with the phone messages, call again. Please. I would not wait for her because that might cause your thoughts to wander into more negative thoughts. T's are used to getting calls, good T's usually have no problem getting calls, 911 or otherwise.
Take Care & Be Safe
(((((B2)))))
Posted by B2chica on August 23, 2007, at 14:58:01
In reply to Re: i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER** » B2chica, posted by Poet on August 23, 2007, at 14:22:47
thanks for letting me know Poet...sometimes i just feel like such a freak (alone) and people know and get disgusted with me/them or think well, that they just don't understand that these feelings (kids) are their own entities...
sorry can't talk well right now.
thank you SO much for the hugs Poet...
Posted by B2chica on August 23, 2007, at 15:05:35
In reply to Re: i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER** » B2chica, posted by JoniS on August 23, 2007, at 14:37:22
thnx Joni, i don't know if brave is the right word....but thnx.
and i like to hear from people with different experiences so don't ever worry that you haven't had exact experience in whatever i'm talking about.
i know i always think worse than really is re: calling her. i'm sure she doesn't mind but i just...i just feel like SUCH a burden...and dont' want her to...well, i just picture her getting her message and Sighing REALLY loud thinking [email protected]'s "her" again, what does she Need NOW??
but, i need to remember not to put thoughts into her that aren't her's.
Posted by muffled on August 23, 2007, at 16:06:28
In reply to Re: i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER**, posted by B2chica on August 23, 2007, at 14:00:58
Awww B2, hope you feeling a bit better.
Ya, phoning.....thats where the code word is good, cuz if you say it, T KNOWS to call, despite what you might say....
It sorta circumnavigates around those that would try and mess you up.
Anyhow, I don't always remember calls either. Quite common with me, cuz phoning is SUCH a big deal for me.
There's been times when T has brought up a call in session and I don't remember doing it...
Or times where I have asked what did I say in a call (it was so hard to ask, and I kinda did ask in a roundabout way), cuz I had a feeling it might not have been nice...
But its OK B2, like I say, its proly stress and it WILL ease up and get easier.
How long have you been breastfeeding, I'm sorry, but I can't remember. But I hear that 6 mo gives them all they really need as far as benefits of breastmilk, and if you going to be 'digging in' in therapy, you might want to talk about the possibility of weaning onto formula so as to be able to get some releif from meds as needed.
I guess you'll just have to weigh the pros and cons re:cost of formula, cost of meds, abilty for you to cope, etc. I spose you could TRY and not do much digging in T and keep it just more maintenance and support at this time, burt sometimes you just can't wait....
So I dunno B2, sounds like you got lots to discuss w/T.
I just want you to try and not get too overwhelmed with the emotions of your inside kids. Cuz their emotions, just like yours do ease off. They may come back, but then they ease up again. These inside kids are not magical, or super powered, they just regular kids, with powerful feeling kids emotions, but still, its emotions, and emotions will ease with time.
This all sounds so trite I know, cuz at the time it feels so powerful, but its truth, so try to hold onto it if you can.
Posted by arora on August 23, 2007, at 16:10:52
In reply to i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER**, posted by B2chica on August 23, 2007, at 11:40:35
B2chica-
I don't know what advice to give you- so afraid I might make it worse, but just wanted to let you know I'm supporting you, too. I understand- but it's not so easy to articulate.My inner kid gets so angry too- maybe it's just that they still respond to situations like children... I think of animals who will chew their own legs off to escape a trap. They respond instinctively- just want to get away from the pain. Lash out at whoever is around- and you are the closest to her. She doesn't mean it personally- doesn't really mean to hurt you.
Maybe, (and I'm saying this because I've worked with injured animals in the past on the farm where I grew up) is tell yourself that yeah, she's gonna lash out at you like a hurt dog or cat that you are trying to help- but you know you're ultimately helping her to heal and get better. When she screams she hates you and wants to kill you- tell her you know that- but you still love her... and you won't LET her hurt you. That makes her feel safe. to know she can say those hurtful things, but you still won't hate her.
Does this make any sense? I'm probably waffling- I'm tryin to send you support as best I can.
(((hugs))) to you and her both.
arora
Posted by RealMe on August 23, 2007, at 20:32:29
In reply to i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER**, posted by B2chica on August 23, 2007, at 11:40:35
I am so sorry about what you are going through. I had a similar part years ago, same thing to kill myself. I will tell you about that at another time. My concern is if you are dissociating, then how are you staying safe. Would you know if you tried something?? I hope you do call your therapist back. I am concerned, and I care.
RealMe (Oz)
Posted by muffled on August 23, 2007, at 21:58:21
In reply to Re: i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER** » B2chica, posted by RealMe on August 23, 2007, at 20:32:29
Posted by Happyflower 1 :-) on August 23, 2007, at 23:50:08
In reply to Re: i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER** » Poet, posted by B2chica on August 23, 2007, at 14:58:01
Hey B2,
I haven't read all of your responses, it is a little much for me right now, but one thing I have heard you say is that maybe you need to call your T . I think you should, it doesn't have to be a total emergency, but I think it would help and maybe you could get in to see her quicker.
I would like to say something more , but my mind it zoned out on xanax at the momement, it is 1am and I can't get back to sleep, but yet I am so exhausted. I feel kinda like a zombie and I feel bad because I want to say something helpul like you always seem to be able to do with me, but I am blank right now. It isn't you, it is all me, but I do care about you and I hope you call your T. (((((B2))))))))) Take care of yourself, you have so much to live for, just hug that daughter of yours tight and hang on to that love she has for you.
Posted by B2chica on August 24, 2007, at 7:55:34
In reply to Re: i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER**, posted by muffled on August 23, 2007, at 16:06:28
Hey Muffy, its been over 6 mo for nursing...and i guess i just keep hanging in 1) cuz i am kinda enjoying that time with little one, but also hoping its being good with moods. but ya, ive been thinking more and more about back on meds soon...
>>>These inside kids are not magical, or super powered, they just regular kids, with powerful feeling kids emotions, but still, its emotions, and emotions will ease with time. This all sounds so trite I know, cuz at the time it feels so powerful, but its truth, so try to hold onto it if you can.
Wow Muffy! This was Right on. i need to write this down or something...
i'm thinking more and more 'what/whoever it was yesterday was Not Teen...it was something/one else. but That's EXACTLY how it felt. it felt supernatural, like he had all power over me and my actions. and he was very controlled. i'm gonna use this as a mantra when i feel his presence.
THANK YOU MUFFY.
Posted by B2chica on August 24, 2007, at 7:56:41
In reply to Re: i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER**, posted by arora on August 23, 2007, at 16:10:52
Thanks A.
rora, i can use all the support i can get right now...THANKS
b2c.
Posted by B2chica on August 24, 2007, at 7:58:27
In reply to Re: i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER** » B2chica, posted by RealMe on August 23, 2007, at 20:32:29
it seems lately that my dissociation isn't as bad as it used to be...i'm somewhat aware of things. and when i'm feeling unsafe i place myself (physically) somwhere where i would be. in my car (no keys in ignition) or here at work or around people.
thank you for caring RM
Posted by B2chica on August 24, 2007, at 7:59:55
In reply to Re: i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER**, posted by Happyflower 1 :-) on August 23, 2007, at 23:50:08
you don't need to say anything more HF...it's just really nice for you to respond...it reminds me that there are one or two people that care.
thank you.
and ahhhh xanax....oh i miss that.
Posted by B2chica on August 24, 2007, at 8:31:47
In reply to how goes it B2? (nm), posted by muffled on August 23, 2007, at 21:58:21
HI!
ok...update from yesterday.
First, i am feeling much better today (think thats partly due to REALLY good night sleep last night!)
but,as to yesterday.
i was beginning to think T wasn't going to call. it was about 5:30 and i figured she wouldn't by then. but she did. i told her even though i felt better by then that i was really glad (relieved) that she called. she said she figured right away that it must have been 'teen', and she said "teens don't always get their way". That 'teen' or anyone else wouldn't have deterred her from calling. i couldn't talk a whole lot cuz my nosey hubby kept coming in, but i tied to briefly tell her what was going on. and we were trying to figure out if this 'inner being/voice' was someone else or maybe more of a psychosis thing going on. she did mention maybe time to think about going back on meds but i told her i'd like to hold off if possible but that i am considering it.
but in the mean time she told me if it comes again that i should get to a place that i can talk outloud to it. i mentioned that it's different than the others and it seems to 'talk over' me and i cant even get the words out and then she mentioned writing it down. I said how i've always been able to write on babble so that writing would be much better. She said to make sure that what i write is in BIG letters and with RED marker...something BOLD.
anyway...i feel really good about her calling and i feel a little safer. and before she hung up she made sure i had her 'emergency' number incase i needed to get ahold of her on the weekend.
That, even if i never use it, really makes me feel safe.
THANK you ALL so very very much for helping me through one of my (many) crisis'.
i just don't knwo what i'd do without this place.Thank You.
b2c.
Posted by LadyBug on August 24, 2007, at 12:08:28
In reply to Re: how goes it B2?, posted by B2chica on August 24, 2007, at 8:31:47
I'm glad today is looking better, I'm sorry I didn't get time to read your post when it started. I've had a lot going on in my life these past few weeks.
I know how it feels to be where you are. It's painful and scary. I always try to find a little thing to hold on to. Sometimes it's my T and sometimes I have to remember how much I'd hurt my girls and I could never do that to them, they are my life.
I hope things are better for you today and you feel some peace.
LadyBug
Posted by muffled on August 25, 2007, at 23:04:18
In reply to Re: i think one of my inner kids..**TRIGGER** » muffled, posted by B2chica on August 24, 2007, at 7:55:34
> >>>These inside kids are not magical, or super powered, they just regular kids, with powerful feeling kids emotions, but still, its emotions, and emotions will ease with time. This all sounds so trite I know, cuz at the time it feels so powerful, but its truth, so try to hold onto it if you can.
>
> Wow Muffy! This was Right on. i need to write this down or something...
> i'm thinking more and more 'what/whoever it was yesterday was Not Teen...it was something/one else. but That's EXACTLY how it felt. it felt supernatural, like he had all power over me and my actions. and he was very controlled. i'm gonna use this as a mantra when i feel his presence.
> THANK YOU MUFFY.**Just as an added note of interest.
I have a part that used to really scare me, but gradually over time this part has become much less frightening.
I call it EP. Emotionless Protector. It has no seeming emotions, and seems so inexorable, it seemed it must be all powerful, and perhaps even evil...it could be capable of ANYthing, cuz nothing affected it. It seemed to have no connection to me, so I had no control.
What I have now realized, it thats its just another part of my protection system, it IS part of me. Its NOT evil, and while it DOES have some power, its not supernaturally powered. And the best way I have to deal with bad stuff w/EP, often is time, the intensity of EP tends to usu eventually pass. So while I think its proly EP who punishes me, I also think EP is there to protect us too.
Just some thots, to maybe get some thots happening for you to discuss w/T.
Take care B2.
Muffled
Posted by RealMe on August 26, 2007, at 0:23:25
In reply to Re: how goes it B2?, posted by B2chica on August 24, 2007, at 8:31:47
glad you are doing better, and glad your theapist called too.
RealMe
(Oz)
Posted by B2chica on August 27, 2007, at 8:18:09
In reply to Re: i think one of my inner kids. » B2chica, posted by muffled on August 25, 2007, at 23:04:18
this is really important for me to hear muffled.
because this one seems SO different than the rest. the others, well when they are present they encompass me. they're here, i'm just in the back ground. my T says i 'look' like them (posture and such) and i sound like them.
with this one, if i try to 'interpret' what he says i don't feel i sound like him, and i feel like i'm pretending...it just feels so different than the others. and it does seem almost evil, like he is this super being and has so much power.
i really like that you called him emotionless protector. this guy seems almost that way...no real passion but bellowing commanding. maybe some anger/control in voice.
it's making me a little more at ease that your EP seemed so different for you too but eventually integrated also.
i will mention this to T tomorrow.
Thanks M.
b2c.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.