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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on August 22, 2007, at 18:14:38
Well, aside from wading through the sections on fear of one's toddler bits and pieces being damaged (ugh Freud...) it has helped me think a lot about self destructive things.
The ultimate self destructive act, of course being suicide. Usually the best-laid plans are consciously or subconsciously affected by some primordial need to be rescued, and the accompanying coercion of the authority figure to provide care.
I figured out one of the sources for my self-destructive tendencies. Happened when my T was away, also happened when I switched T's recently. Boy do I feel like a dumbass. I was expressing self-injurious and suicidal thoughts as to accelerate my bond with T. Expecting him (or pdoc?) to come and rescue me, or at least take care of me in some abstract medical sense (medical being the only context in which I've experienced compassion from the maternal figure-- like when I was sick).
Am I a bad person for being coercive? Is self-destruction inherently a manipulation of another person in order to demand more nurturing attention?
****
The other thing I read was about how anxiety out of control leads to all kinds of maladaptive behaviors. A dysregulation of the ability to deal with anxiety often leads to a guilty fear where we constantly expect punishment from without. Since people don't actually punish us as much as we believe we deserve, we pre-empt them and apply our own version of "suitable" punishment.Another possibility is the expression of rage following anxious dysregulation. I'm personally not so familiar with this, aside from expressing rage against my parents. Rage at their failure to take care of me as a wee one. Rage at their inability to protect me. Ironically, rage at the passive parent and withdrawal from the violent parent. Sure makes calling home an ordeal...
Rage scares me. Especially when people seem out of control and are lashing out. Another thing that happens is defiant behavior, even in the absence of something/someone worth defying. Consistently contrary behavior arises from disordered attachment to a parental figure in which we want more from them, but we are simultaneously furious with them. We extend our fury to other stimuli, and before we know it we are defiant and oppositional to nearly any relationship, especially relationships with authority figures, bosses and the like.
And then there's the coercive manipulation. This one was framed more as a psychopath-type thing. The abdication of personal responsibility for moral actions leads to a person forming alliances (hopefully with powerful allies) and then manipulating them through threats to carry out nefarious deeds. All of this happening without much direct aggression being exchanged between the aggressor and the victim. The victim feels attacked from all sides, and the allies don't often realize the source of the attacks. Meanwhile the person with the agression feels little responsibility for his or her own actions since he or she was not directly connected to the victimization.
*****
This is what I did with my afternoon. Of course by the end of it I was convinced that I have schizophrenia, borderline and a whole bevy of other conditions. Mostly it was to get my mind off of the fact that my cat had been missing since 7am yesterday am. We scoured the neighborhood. no kitty. when we came home from shopping he was there. ((((kitty))))-Ll
Posted by Maria01 on August 22, 2007, at 18:26:40
In reply to **triggers** book on psychodynamic psychology, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on August 22, 2007, at 18:14:38
I don't think you're a "bad person" for being coercive, but if you are expressing suicidal ideation with the sole desire to be rescued, that can be manipulative.
If you are expressing suicidal ideation because you are in so much pain that you feel it's the only way out, then that's a different story. If you're doing it just to entice someone to rescue you and take care of you, it might be time to look at other ways of getting those needs met, IMOI don't think self-destruction is inherently manipulative in the broad sense. People can act out for the sole purpose of manipulating those around them, but then there are others who are self-destructive for more existentially-based reasons,l or it's also seen as a component of some personality disorders.
I have been suicidal before, and the last thing on my mind was rescue. I just wanted the pain to stop. Fortunately, I had enough presence of mind to come right out and say that. Made everything so much easier.
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on August 22, 2007, at 18:57:33
In reply to Re: **triggers** book on psychodynamic psychology » LlurpsieNoodle, posted by Maria01 on August 22, 2007, at 18:26:40
> I have been suicidal before, and the last thing on my mind was rescue. I just wanted the pain to stop. Fortunately, I had enough presence of mind to come right out and say that. Made everything so much easier.
I don't want to compare your situation to mine, of course everyone's experiences are unique. At the time of suicidal ideation, perhaps the pain is overwhelming and I did want relief from it. But what kind of pain is it? Was it the pain of wanting to be helped and not getting that kind of help, or not soon enough. Perhaps 'rescue' is too strong a concept.
I should add that the book is from 1963 and I got it from the freebie bin of the used bookstore. It did seem rather apropos, once I skipped the chapters on genetics... lol
-Ll
Posted by DAisym on August 22, 2007, at 20:56:01
In reply to Re: **triggers** book on psychodynamic psychology » Maria01, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on August 22, 2007, at 18:57:33
I've asked this question often - is expressing suicidal ideation inherently manipulative? Is it a cry for help? It is a cry against so much pain? I think talking about these ideas in therapy help me see a number of things. I DO want my therapist to react in some way - by caring enough about me to say, "please don't." But I DON'T want him to rescue me from myself by locking me up, etc. He tells me that if I'm feeling these things, something needs his attention. It might be the pain, it might be other needs, but this is an extreme call. Pathological, conscious manipulation is more when you don't actually feel suicidal but claim to, in order to get something.
I don't know about you, but when I read all that stuff, I get upset with myself for not knowing my own motives. I think I should "know" my unconscious - and not be "so out of control."
I'm glad you are feeling better and your kitty came home.
Posted by meeple on August 23, 2007, at 6:37:31
In reply to Re: **triggers** book on psychodynamic psychology » LlurpsieNoodle, posted by DAisym on August 22, 2007, at 20:56:01
I think one needs to pick ones psychoanalytic theory very carefully indeed. I used to read compulsively and in many ways I still do. Have this drive to understand the answer to this question that has plagued me all my life: 'what is wrong with me?' There is a lot out there. A lot of material. A lot of words. A lot of words that make me feel bad about myself: Manipulative, coercive, attention seeking, demanding etc etc etc. But if it is the truth then I want to know even if it hurts. Sometimes I worry that my reading (and hurting) is a form of repetition compulsion but then sometimes I worry that if I don't take it properly on board that would be a form of denial. Damned if I do and damned if I don't and so what is to be done?
To pick ones psychoanalytic theory very carefully.
To realise that my question is based on a false assumption.
I discovered "Self Psychology" last year. Read a couple of books by Kohut (the founder) and now I'm okay with considering myself narcissistic. I have a narcissist condition and thats okay. Its a developmental thing. Understandable, really, given my life experiences.
Kohut thinks that humans have basic needs (including mirroring and idealising and twinning) and they persist throughout the lifespan. Freud thought that needing others for emotional connectivity was pathological somehow and cognitive behaviour therapists in a rationalist tradition seem to take individualism and self-sufficiency as the ideal, too. Kohut seems to get the basic insight that human beings are social creatures, however, and thus he is a lot less judgemental of those who need more than the world has offered them sofar. Reading hurts at times, yeah, but it is also kind of liberating because I realise I'm not a freak it is just an unfortunate set of life circumstances has (understandably) resulted in my feeling like one.
Suicide... What is it about?
For me... Suicide is about wanting the bad feelings to stop. I get to the point where I'd do about anything to make the feeling stop. I'd even kill myself to make the feeling stop. What feeling? Different people find that different terms resonate for them. Isolation. Abandonment. Fragmentation. Shame. Breaking up. Annihilation. Loss of identity. Loss of self. It is that feeling that prompts psychotic breaks. The distorted figured dripping black with malevolent tinges. The scream masks. Fear. No, not fear TERROR. Anything to stop the feeling ANYTHING.
Attention seeking? If a little attention is going to stop the feeling then DAMN WELL GIVE IT TO ME RIGHT NOW. Have you seen people in hospital when they f*ck up their morphene dose and they are in intense agony? The sweetest most gentle people screaming their faces off for a little attention. Understandable given the pain. Why can't analysts be charitable????? Freud gave himself a very hard time indeed...
Posted by raisinb on August 23, 2007, at 9:22:37
In reply to Re: **triggers** book on psychodynamic psychology » LlurpsieNoodle, posted by DAisym on August 22, 2007, at 20:56:01
One of the things I really like about Marsha Linehan's book on DBT is that she takes on that idea and shows that it's circular reasoning. Just because others (including Ts) might *feel* manipulated, that doesn't mean the person *intended* to manipulate them. Self-destructive thoughts or acts might have all kinds of motives, but usually the first one is to deal with overwhelming painful feelings.
I like her explanation much better than the conventional psychodynamic view.
This is the end of the thread.
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