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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on August 21, 2007, at 12:45:46
But I think I know why.
I described CBT as very useful skills training, and since that's mostly what he does, I think I insulted him. He merely mildly said it was a different sort of therapy.
I think that maybe I did it on purpose. He was marveling at how many people on Babble cared enough about their therapist to not want to lose them. And compared that to his usual clientele who had no desire to see him very long, and many of his colleagues who would consider therapy of longer than eight months to be doing a disservice to their clients. He thought it was unusual that so many of us were gathered in one place where we could discuss it. I admitted that we might be a self selected group, and I said that I didn't think I had really started therapy until five years in, and that maybe his colleagues had never spent enough time to start therapy. And then added that he had taught me a lot of useful CBT skills in those first few months.
But I think perhaps my feelings were hurt. I'm trying to figure out if it's reasonable to feel hurt, or if there really wasn't any implied criticism in what he said.
I called and left a brief apology for what I said, and said I realized it wasn't fair. But I didn't say anything about why I said it.
Posted by muffled on August 21, 2007, at 14:00:15
In reply to I think I was rude today, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2007, at 12:45:46
> I described CBT as very useful skills training, and since that's mostly what he does, I think I insulted him. He merely mildly said it was a different sort of therapy.
**ummm, it IS useful skills training...
My T is pretty CBT trained (adlerian) and I used to think that stuff was dumb, but I have come to realize its very important.
But along WITH the CBT stuff, my T learned me how to trust her. She also was unconditionally accepting of me, even when I tried to push her away...
She was patient and never gave up on me, even when she didn't really know what to do w/me. She still stuck w/me cuz she knew there wasn't much alternatives.
So CBT training is good, but its also accompanied with alot of other 'stuff'.
Like we talk bout stuff in our lives too.
So yeah, it is a diff sort of therapy.
But Dinah, I'm not clear where the insult was?
It must have been in the tone of your voice?
> I think that maybe I did it on purpose. He was marveling at how many people on Babble cared enough about their therapist to not want to lose them. And compared that to his usual clientele who had no desire to see him very long, and many of his colleagues who would consider therapy of longer than eight months to be doing a disservice to their clients. He thought it was unusual that so many of us were gathered in one place where we could discuss it. I admitted that we might be a self selected group, and I said that I didn't think I had really started therapy until five years in, and that maybe his colleagues had never spent enough time to start therapy. And then added that he had taught me a lot of useful CBT skills in those first few months.**hmmm, your doc better not be dissing babble...grrr...;-)
And I can see where it might be hard to hear the thing bout where his colleagues don't approve of over 8 mo.
But by the same token, diff therapies, diff issues, diff T's, etc, all come into play....
Does your T ever read babble? He might find it interesting.> But I think perhaps my feelings were hurt. I'm trying to figure out if it's reasonable to feel hurt, or if there really wasn't any implied criticism in what he said.
**I doubt there was any implied critisism, I think he was just stating a fact, but you never really know until you ask...
But I can totally understand where you would feel hurt. I would be the same. I have a tendancy to extrapolate things my T has said, and she called me on it, and she was right. That was towards the end, when after 2+ years, she was FINALLY starting to 'get' me. Thru not fault of her own of course, I didn't speak!
> I called and left a brief apology for what I said, and said I realized it wasn't fair. But I didn't say anything about why I said it.**I am slightly lost here..what was it that you said that you apologized for? What wasn't fair about it?
And why did you say it?
Lord almighty, I am feel so dense these days.
Its proly clear, but could you further clarify? Or not.
Take care Dinah, glad to see you posting.
Muffled
Posted by Honore on August 21, 2007, at 14:46:50
In reply to I think I was rude today, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2007, at 12:45:46
How did he "marvel," I would wonder? Since his colleagues think our Ts are doing us a disservice, I wonder if he was implying that our Ts may be doing that; and that our not wanting to lose them is somehow a sign of some unhealthy sort of dependence?
Did he mean that? Or was he simply marvelling that there was another world of T out there-- one that he and his colleagues were not fully acquainted with.
Or as muffled says, was he dissing babble?
Of course we're self-selected. We look for people who will understand what we're talking about, and have some sense of our experience, because of their own. In our ordinary lives, we can't discuss T with acquaintances and friends. Most wouldn't understand, or at best, have any basis of reference.
But our finding one another doesn't mean we're indulging in private (or group) obsessions of some suspicious sort. It means that we can learn from one another and also relieve one another form the oppressive sense that each of us is alone.
Honore
Posted by Dinah on August 21, 2007, at 17:24:19
In reply to Re: I think I was rude today » Dinah, posted by muffled on August 21, 2007, at 14:00:15
I didn't think of it as rude at the time, but looking back, I can see how he probably saw it as dismissive of what he does most of the time. I'm sure he took no lasting harm.
And I am sure I am doing some extrapolating. He probably meant it as a casual comment, certainly not dissing Babble - for the most part he seems to like Babble and encourage my participation here. And I've long been aware that he does mostly short term CBT work. Any barb in his words was unintended I'm sure.
I'm not sure what I read into it, really. I didn't notice taking offense. Really it's hard to take offense when I'm there. His voice is always so inoffensive. It's not till later that I say "Hey! What did be mean by *that*?"
Posted by Dinah on August 21, 2007, at 17:27:04
In reply to Re: I think I was rude today, posted by Honore on August 21, 2007, at 14:46:50
I'm sure it's honest marveling, not intended to be rude. It's just that he and likely his therapist friends were trained mainly in short term CBT. So it likely is a whole different world of therapy.
I feel kind of bad for him. Maybe he has to hide me for fear of censure.
But wait. That makes me feel bad about myself again...
Posted by DAisym on August 21, 2007, at 18:58:24
In reply to Re: I think I was rude today » Honore, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2007, at 17:27:04
Maybe he is envious? My therapist often says he is sad that so many people give therapy such a short time to work, but then again, it is expensive and painful. If someone asked you if you'd like to pay to have your insides turned out on a frequent basis, what would you say? Pathology at its finest. :)
I doubt very much he meant to insult you. I do wonder why it felt like a criticism and whose voice it is you are hearing? You've long been OK with supportive forever therapy. And how did you end up talking about CBT anyway? I'm still feeling fragile from being subjected to some of that last week myself.
Posted by muffled on August 21, 2007, at 19:23:18
In reply to Re: I think I was rude today » muffled, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2007, at 17:24:19
>I'm not sure what I read into it, really. I didn't notice taking offense. Really it's hard to take offense when I'm there. His voice is always so inoffensive. It's not till later that I say "Hey! What did be mean by *that*?"
**LOL Welcome to my world Dinah :-)
But I am glad it wasn't a huge big prob for you.
M
Posted by Maria01 on August 21, 2007, at 19:27:49
In reply to I think I was rude today, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2007, at 12:45:46
If you feel hurt, you were hurt. No point in questioning whether or not it's reasonable. What matters is whether or not his words/actions affected you and how YOU feel about them, and how you choose to address it. If he or anyone else feels that your hurt feeling are unreasonable, it's their problem. =)
Posted by RealMe on August 21, 2007, at 23:54:10
In reply to I think I was rude today, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2007, at 12:45:46
Posted by Dinah on August 22, 2007, at 5:38:03
In reply to Re: I think I was rude today, posted by DAisym on August 21, 2007, at 18:58:24
I think I mentioned CBT in connection with saying I didn't think I really started therapy until Year 5, which was when I finally stopped testing him and started trusting him. I'm not sure how we got there, but I think it was something along the lines of my being open to change but at my own very slow pace, which was ok with him.
And maybe something about thanking him for telling me that even if I got *all* better (he asked with a laugh what is *all* better anyway) I wouldn't have to stop seeing him. That reassurance is what helps me move along without being afraid that changing means losing him. Because if I thought that, I'd likely be unwilling to change at all.
My OCD is acting up a bit, ok more than a bit, and no doubt that had something to do with my worrying that I had insulted him. (I'm rarely up before six unless my OCD is nagging me.)
Posted by Dinah on August 22, 2007, at 5:38:54
In reply to Re: I think I was rude today » Dinah, posted by muffled on August 21, 2007, at 19:23:18
Not big, but nagging me. Likely the OCD.
Posted by Dinah on August 22, 2007, at 5:44:40
In reply to Re: I think I was rude today, posted by Maria01 on August 21, 2007, at 19:27:49
I think I grasped the main problem when I said that maybe he had to hide me from his colleagues because he's been seeing me so long. It wasn't so much his comments about Babble, or that he doesn't have many long term clients. I think it was his comments about the other therapists he knew. He doesn't tell me (and wisely so) each time he seeks supervision or consultation about me, but I remember he did during the transition to long term supportive therapy. I guess I'm worried that I caused him troubles or embarrassment with his colleagues, which would somehow (I haven't worked this part out yet) mean something bad about me.
Babble is so useful sometimes in helping me work things out and clarify them for myself. :)
Posted by Dinah on August 22, 2007, at 5:48:08
In reply to Re: I think I was rude today (nm), posted by RealMe on August 21, 2007, at 23:54:10
That "no message" is another pernicious button. :)
Posted by Honore on August 22, 2007, at 10:16:54
In reply to Re: I think I was rude today » Maria01, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2007, at 5:44:40
It could be, on the contrary, that he's proud of himself for having become ready to do long-term work, rather than embarrassed and self-conscious. Or maybe he's self-conscious in a pleasurable way-- he's cross the line into a more serious type of work-- and he's wondering what other people think.
I do think he's proud of the work he's doing with you-- even if he doesn't admit it.
I'm sorry the OCD is cropping up some-- but on the other hand, you're responding to something that could very well be there-- except maybe giving it a hurtful or negative spin. But I've been thinking this for a long time-- that it is a mark to him of a capacity for growth and development-- and gives him a chance to use parts of himself that he hasn't used before.
Honore
Posted by Dinah on August 22, 2007, at 11:02:25
In reply to Re: I think I was rude today » Dinah, posted by Honore on August 22, 2007, at 10:16:54
You know, I think that is true.
Maybe he is happy to be able to stretch and grow in that sort of work. Even if he doesn't mention me to his colleagues, maybe he thinks it's more that they don't have the sort of experience to understand than that he thinks he should be ashamed of his work with me. In fact, that does fit with the sort of thing he usually says.
Yes, I think I'll adjust the view that way.
Thanks. :)
Posted by RealMe on August 22, 2007, at 23:19:43
In reply to Re: I think I was rude today » RealMe, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2007, at 5:48:08
Oh crap; that is not what I meant to do. Sorry. I had a message I thought I sent and cannot remember it now except the part where I disagree that a person in therapy over 8 months means the therapist is doing the patient a disservice. Of course I am in more psychoanalytically oriented psychotherapy which often lasts for years, and in my experience tends to address change at a more comprehensive level than CBT which addresses the thinking with the belief that feelings and behavior will follow. Problem I have with CBT, and I was intially trained as a strict behaviorist (UGH), is that the therapeutic relationship is not considered very important if at all by many CBT folks. With the more psychoananlytically informed approaches, the therapeutic relationship is a "curative" factor.
So I would not do well with CBT partly because of my later training but also because of my belief that knowning myself inside and out and my relationship to others is going to make a world of difference for me in terms of my life and my relationships. For others, CBT is great, and they swear by it. So, it really is important to find the right match in terms of a therapist and the type of therapy. Sigh. There was more. Sorry don't remember.
RealMe (Oz)
Posted by Dinah on August 22, 2007, at 23:48:56
In reply to Re: I think I was rude today » Dinah, posted by RealMe on August 22, 2007, at 23:19:43
I tend to agree. I mean, CBT is great in a lot of ways, and for a lot of people it might be just the ticket.
But I tend to be mulish when confronted with it straight up.
I'll admit that the first five years of my therapy were spent testing my therapist and seeing if he was emotionally safe. Emotional safety is not something I ever even thought possible until him. In those five years, I probably appeared worse rather than better.
I think we came a long way in the next five years though. I'm not quite sure where we are on the journey now. :) But I do know we took out the big envelope of issues Tuesday. I hadn't seen them in over two years. And most of them really aren't issues anymore. Or they may still be true, but they no longer seem all that big or issue-ish.
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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