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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wittgenstein on August 15, 2007, at 19:56:58
Sorry, this is going to be a bit of a ramble...
Last Friday I saw my T again after 3 1/2 weeks. It was my first long break from therapy since starting a few months ago and it was harder than I thought it would be.
The weird thing is now I am seeing him again, I'm missing him even more - a feeling of neediness towards him - perhaps it's just the feeling that I want things to be how they were just before the vacation, which of course they're not straight away.
Anyway, last Friday he was asking for me to be more open to him - he said explicitly that I should stop trying to be the 'perfect patient' and just be myself. Perhaps I took this too much to heart as over the weekend I wrote him a piece about how I felt about him - how much I'd missed him, and how at times it had given me comfort to imagine embracing/hugging him as a daughter might her father.
Anyway, I had my last appointment with him on Tuesday and it was really awkward (for me at least). I would never have said these things to his face. I felt he trivialised and downplayed my feelings - he described my transference as a 'side effect' of the therapy and described himself as having joined the line of male authority figures to whom I had had fatherly transferences (which I felt wasn't fair at all - and humiliating to boot - there certainly isn't a 'line' of them - made me feel like he thinks I'm emotionally loose).
Then he gave me a talk about how we could hug and it would be nice but that it wouldn't help me and it would just be re-living an early desire. A few minutes later he asked me if I was 'disappointed'. I can see why he wanted to make this clear but at no point had I asked him for a hug - actually the reality of it would probably have made me very uncomfortable - I had simply shared a fantasy I had had rather than making a request of any kind.
I left the session feeling hurt and confused. He told me it was very good that I had shared how I felt but I got the feeling it wasn't good at all - almost as if he wanted to punish me for having those feelings or that I should have kept them to myself. I don't feel he understands me at all. Why encourage me to be open and then label my feelings as 'side effects'. Why couldn't he have just understood that my desire to be hugged was one of a need for closeness - instead of taking it as an opportunity to alienate and humiliate me?
What hurts the most is the more I care about him, the more he can hurt me.
He knew I was irritated/frustrated in the last session - I said as much - and he said something like 'how can we make the time go then?'. Sometimes it feels like he's more willing to chat about travel and art than he is about feelings.
I see him again on Friday but in the mean time it's that horrible 'killing time' feeling.
Witti
Posted by JoniS on August 16, 2007, at 0:31:20
In reply to I opened up but he pushed me away :(, posted by wittgenstein on August 15, 2007, at 19:56:58
Witti
Sounds like a very difficult session. I see exactly why you're frustrated. He definitely had some trouble handling your feelings for him. When you were open - as he encouraged you to be - I don't think you "took it too much to heart" You did just what he encouraged you to. I see why you feel hurt, but I don't think he meant to trivialise your feelings, I think he just didn't know the best way to respond. Sounds like he is just a little inexperienced in that area. There was probably some countertransference going on. His comment regarding the 'line' could even have been his attempt to say you are normal, this has happened before - because it can be a normal response in therapy.
I see why you would leave there feeling hurt and confused, I would be struggling with those feelings too in that situation. But - I don't believe he was trying to punish you for the feelings that you shared with him. He should be able to handle this much more positively and unconditionally than he did. To me it sounds like inexperience with the comment about 'side effects' and also since you said he seems to sometimes prefer discussing travel & art instead of feelings.
Maybe if you felt OK about it it would be good to take in your post, for him to read or for you to remember what you need to talk about with him. Hopefully he can handle it better than the last time. If he gets defensive or in any way not tender and understanding, then he really has a major deficency in his ability to provide therapy & counseling.
You did not do anything bad, or wrong, or anything to feel ashamed of. What you shared deserves respect and a caring, validating, genuine response. You didn't get that, he made some mistakes. Hopefully he can redeem himself next time.
Be good to yourself. You deserve applause for the strength & courage to share with him, and also here.
Take care
Joni
Posted by wittgenstein on August 16, 2007, at 5:25:12
In reply to Re: I opened up but he pushed me away :(, posted by JoniS on August 16, 2007, at 0:31:20
Thanks Joni,
I'm feeling better than I did yesterday although it still hurts. It's horrible how a bad session can ruin the days that follow it until things are put right again.
I wish I could put it down to lack of experience but my T should be very experienced - he's a retired professor and has been doing his job for years. There is a big age difference - I'm 22 - and I wonder whether most of his patients are older than me (actually I have no idea) but perhaps that is a factor.
I just wish he'd handled things differently. Oh well, I see him again tomorrow - I'll try to bring up what I feel about it then.
Thanks again for your help :)
Witti
Posted by sunnydays on August 16, 2007, at 10:04:59
In reply to I opened up but he pushed me away :(, posted by wittgenstein on August 15, 2007, at 19:56:58
I can't say it much better than Joni. My T told me he was honored when I shared my feelings with him. And he really emphasized how they were totally normal and how wonderful it was that I felt able to share them with him. I hope your T can fix it when you next see him. Taking in your post would be a great way to start the conversation if you think you'll have trouble.
sunnydays
Posted by Honore on August 16, 2007, at 14:27:22
In reply to I opened up but he pushed me away :(, posted by wittgenstein on August 15, 2007, at 19:56:58
That sounds really painful, Wittgenstein. Kind of like he was saying that it was some sort of predictable, meaningless effluvia- that he perhaps a bit paternalistically (and kindly), but somehow condescendingly understood.
He must have a rather old fashioned view of transference and all that stuff. More contemporary views take patients feeling much more seriously-- about that sort of thing. They don't label it a kind of mechanical and purely imaginary reaction to the Analyst-- but rather as a personal reaction to them and to the situation, as well as to the historical meanings of such situations-- and they take their own countertranference feelings into account as part of a real as well as internal echo of the past. That is, you can react to and see them as like your parents, or other historical figures, but that will only be the context of the real feelings you have for them, as a real person-- so just as in life the reality of the present is intermingled in one's mind with the overhanging ways and beliefs of the past.
I find that approach so much more humane and complete. And I'm sorry that your T, who I think was probably made somewhat uncomfortable by your feelings-- and did try to minimize them and fit them into a square hole to make himself feel less vulnerable-- That wasn't very helpful or deep of him-- but I guess sometimes you have to try to have empathy for the fears and limitations of Ts. Makes me wonder if he has his office in his home in order to protect himself from the intense emotions that are generated in the room-- ie he and the patient can't ever forget that he's married with family, so to speak. (But maybe that's my personal take on it, and I'm wrong--since I don't know him at all-- I don't mean to impose my interpretation if it doesn't fit.)
I do hope he can loosen up and hear your feelings in a more real and respectful way. Maybe he was just taken aback and didn't handle it well. But I can see how much it would disappoint and hurt you--- not because you he wouldn't hug you, but because he didn't understand where the feelings came from and what they meant. It's great that you're having warm and loving feelings toward him-- but I hope he knows how to handle them so that they become a source of growth and learning for you-- not embarrassment and then distancing.
Honore
Posted by Wittgenstein on August 16, 2007, at 15:40:18
In reply to Re: I opened up but he pushed me away :( » wittgenstein, posted by Honore on August 16, 2007, at 14:27:22
I thought I was feeling better today - your responses have really helped me, and I appreciate your support. The thing is, I keep having these horrible waves of pain and more or less anything can trigger them (sadly I guess these are familiar for a lot of Babblers). I know it's probably over-the-top but it was such a big deal for me to be open to him in the first place.
I think this has been the most upsetting thing to come up so far. He did make a really stupid comment early on in T when I tried to explain how I was afraid to cry and mentioned the lack of any tissues in his office - I mentioned how my grandfather had hit my brother and I as toddlers if we cried and my T responded half-jokingly "so, you think I'm going to hit you?". At the time, I seriously contemplated quitting. Usually he's not like this but when he does muck up, it really hurts.
What would you do in a similar situation i.e. a bad session and you feel awful afterwards and the pain just won't ease off - this time I've just sat it out but should I have phoned him or written to him? I don't really know what warrants contact and what doesn't - we've never discussed it. A couple of times I've asked to see him sooner for fairly big reasons (overwhelming suicidal thoughts) and he's scheduled me in first thing the next day both times.
I know a lot of people do phone their T's. I'm not a big phone person but maybe just talking to him would have saved me some of this pain. I'm reluctant to mail him seeings as it was my last mail to him that brought all this up in the first place. I don't want to pester him or pressure him - I'm afraid that will push him away even further and all I really want is to feel close and connected. I'm counting on a good session tomorrow.
Honore, I think you're right - he seems to be a traditional Freudian although he's not orthodox in his approach - a considerable amount of 'himself' is there in the room. Perhaps this somewhat old-school approach explains his response although some time ago when I first admitted I had missed him, he did deal with this sensitively. I think your suggestion about him having his practice at home is interesting. I hope I don't make him feel threatened in some way. I don't have 'those' kind of feelings toward him and the thought that he might have such feelings toward me disturbs me a bit - I don't have a very high self-esteem so it's hard for me to imagine that being possible.
As for the home-environment, it does sometimes feel a bit in-your-face having a session with his wife wandering around in the back garden. Just before the vacation his wife had just got back from the shops as I was arriving and we had a bit of a chat - she seems very nice (in a genuine way) and didn't appear to be threatened by me.
Thanks again for your replies - will see how it goes tomorrow.
Witti
Posted by RealMe on August 16, 2007, at 22:05:59
In reply to Re: I opened up but he pushed me away :(, posted by Wittgenstein on August 16, 2007, at 15:40:18
This sort of reminds me of my therapist who is an analyst too. Early on, like around the the second or third session he said something about how before we were done, we would have an intimate relationship. I knew he did not mean sexually and that it would mean for me and what I reveal and not what he reveals about himself; Rather it would be how he responds to me and is of help to me so that I can learn to trust again. csa has a way of causing easy hurt and difficult trust later in life. Also makes you susceptible unfortunately to trusting the wrong people.
Anyway, My T also mentioned something about me maybe having sexual feeling for him, and this freaked me too as I was afraid I would, and then what!! How could I tell him. Well it happened, and I never said anything until before our session on Tuesday, but I emailed it to him with a bunch of other stuff. On Tuesday I acted like I could not remember everything I wrote. So, I will address it tomorrow morning. I have promised myself I will. I hope he doesn't make some flippant remark as seems to have happened to you. My therapist has joked about my "faces" and has said he loved the faces I make. But then he said they reveal something about the inner me, and I did not think it was so funny anymore. He was right of course, but then when he sort of joked about a face I made last week, I told him later that it really hurts when he laughs as it feels like he is making fun of me even though I know that is not his intent. Of course he got real serious and wanted me to say more about that, and I did, and of course it all relates back to either my mother or my csa or other stuff back when. My mother used to be emotionally absent and would act like I never told her about something that bothered me when I would bring it up again. "XXXX, why didn't you tell me?" Crazy making sh*t.
So, hang in there and try to be honest with your T about how it made you feel when he made his what seemed to you as a fippant and hurtful remark. He is not perfect, and neither is my T. I know I was not always perfect either when I did therapy with people, and I always appreciated it when someone would tell me how what I said hurt their feelings or whatever as T's learn about patients this way and what are sensitivities which of course harken back to an earlier time. Hope this helps; if not, toss it and ignore.
RealMe (forerly OzLand)
Posted by Wittgenstein on August 17, 2007, at 20:32:19
In reply to Re: Reminds me of my therapist **trigger** » Wittgenstein, posted by RealMe on August 16, 2007, at 22:05:59
Thank you RealMe. Your posts here are so valuable and appreciated.
I'm grateful I'm having this kind of therapy (i.e. PA) but it can be so painful at times. I think he made a poor judgment but it's got a lot to do with me - my sensitivities and what triggers me - I think my T and I have both learned a lot from this, although I wish it didn't have to hurt so much.
You've been extremely brave to be open about your feelings toward your T. I know it's not easy at all and it leaves you very vulnerable. I really hope he responds in the right way for you - tender, sensitive and makes you feel comfortable and accepted.
If you want to share, I'd be really interested to hear how it goes (how it went). It's good to meet others who are having a similar kind of T - analytic - the responses on this board have been so helpful.
Anyway, feel free to Babblemail.
Witti
Posted by RealMe on August 18, 2007, at 21:46:24
In reply to Re: Reminds me of my therapist **trigger**, posted by Wittgenstein on August 17, 2007, at 20:32:19
Well I did not get into my stuff yesterday, and I started to beat myself over the head for it. It was okay. I usually sit in a chair way across the room. It felt safer that way; I understand what that is all about, and of course that did not escape notice when I asked yesterday if people ever sit at the far end of the couch, and he said yes. I then asked if people sit at the other end of the couch way up close to where he sits, and he said yes. He then said, "And people even lie down on the couch" to which I rolled my eyes. He suggested this early on, and I just have not felt safe enough to do that and have him so close sitting behind me. UGH. I think moving closer sitting up first is what I can tolerate now, and then maybe later; who knows. Long day today; drove over 400 miles and so need to go to bed. There are a number of us seeing analysts. I am glad I am.
RealMe
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