![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DAisym on August 9, 2007, at 2:21:40
If you'd asked me years ago, I would have sworn I didn't have an "unconscious." I still struggle with the idea of being motivated by something not conscious, it feels sort of out of control, which I hate being. But no matter how I feel about it, it is hard to deny when the dots get connected.
Building trust has been a huge part of my work in therapy -- allowing myself to feel good about the connection I have with my therapist is very difficult to maintain. I've written here about it a hundred times - being needy freaks me out and then I pull away. But he is always very patient and we work it through until I feel connected again and slowly more trust is built. Most of the time I know why I'm pulling back, and I know what I'm anxious or angry about. But not this time. This time it was the unconscious transference monster reaching out from a very young place to shake everything up. I'm sure you can imagine how scary it is to realize that.
It started last week. I had to call my therapist because I was running late and he'd changed his outgoing message to say "you've reached the office of Dr...." I almost wrecked the car -- "Dr."? I knew he'd been working on his PhD but obviously it was now a done deal. So I opened the session with that - "I noticed you changed your answering machine..." and he said yes. "It" had happened a "few weeks ago." I congratulated him on three years of hard work and we talked about his dissertation and it seemed fine. I knew I was sitting on those feelings of "this was a big deal happening to you and I didn't know it, since I'm just a client" but I managed to sort of swallow all of that and we had an OK session. But group that night went badly (we have a new person) particularly around an EMDR discussion.
I brought my feelings about group into my next session and we talked about EMDR. I said clearly I didn't want to do it and my therapist went down this long tangent about how he's read it is very effective and maybe it might help me and how it would be better if he could do it but he wasn't certified to do it but he could refer me, etc. I guess he must have realized how I was taking it because he also said, "it wouldn't change the work we are doing here, I'd still work with you, it would just be an adjunct and it might help with the nightmares, etc." Of course I said I knew that. And of course, I was really upset and felt sent away. I barely talked to him the next session but at the end I finally, in tears, told him how upset I was knowing full well he didn't say "go away." So I was struggling with feelings that didn't match the reality. Over the weekend I truly tried to box away all my therapy feelings. My therapist was away over the weekend, so I knew he was unavailable, not that I needed him. I just stayed really, really busy. All of my kids were home for three days together and they were really cranky with each other. The fighting really upset me, more than it should have.
On Monday I woke up with horrible anxiety. It got worse and worse all day. I knew it was related to therapy and that whole, "did he come back?" question that happens for me when he goes out of town. I spent most of the session talking about my kids and how upsetting it was for me to hear them fight with each other. My therapist kind of blew it off as a boy thing and a sibling thing. We talked about some other stuff, including my pre-session anxiety but he seemed so far away to me. After I left, I just got torpedoed with all this anxiety - the nuclear explosion of impending doom. It was so intense that it converted to rage in about 15 minutes - mostly at not understanding what was happening and at therapy for not being what I needed it to be.
I made myself tell my therapist how I felt after the session the next day. This is new for me because I don't usually say anything until I have it all figured out. He wants me to try and think things through with him, during sessions and not be on my own with all it. So I really tried to figure out the anxiety and anger and where it was coming from. And then it all got twisted up and I ended up saying I needed to cut back on therapy and that I was worried I wasn't getting through it all fast enough for him and that the need and connection for him was painful, not helpful. I wasn't very nice...:( He said he was sad to hear that I was hurting like this and sad that our connection was painful for me. I left upset. I went to group still upset last night and the weirdest thing happened. The new person wasn't there, so it was a much more relaxed group. I said something along the lines of "it wasn't just what happened to me, it was the confusion of having a loving and good dad, and then the abuse started." Someone asked, "what changed - what was different when it started?" I answered, "my dad finished his PhD and went to work so we were put in daycare." And then I burst into tears and shut down completely.
Today we looked at it all together. A very young part of me is terrified (hence the impending sense of doom) that since my therapist got his PhD everything will change and he will leave me. This is not based in any reality and I am just shocked at how the dots connect. I told him I feel a little foolish, like this is a stretch to explain my feelings the past week. He said it makes perfect sense to him, especially given my reaction last night. I think it will take time for me to fully understand what has been triggered. We also looked at how I was overreacting to my boys fighting. When I was young, all I had were my brothers. I was hugely, painfully shy and they protected me from new people. And we all shared the secret of our dad's anger. I want my kids to be friends because in my mind, they need to have each other's back. And we did talk about the part of me that feels a little left out and hurt thatI didn't even know he'd graduated. Today he told me that he thought about telling me but it was just after my dad came and I wasn't doing very well. He said it just didn't seem like the time for sharing positive personal news. I can understand that.
So - I'm sorry I haven't been around much, I've been kind of a mess. And I'm sorry this got to be so long. (not that this is new for me.) Anyone else have one of those "ah ha!" kinds of moments - and how do you make conscious those unconscious pockets of crud?
Posted by JoniS on August 9, 2007, at 7:11:28
In reply to Connecting the unconscious dots - long, posted by DAisym on August 9, 2007, at 2:21:40
Thanks for sharing your heart. Your story was amazing. As I read it so many feelings came up for me, so I can't even imagine how it was for you. Very intense. It is so incredible how our minds and emotions work. I admire how you write, clearly describing how the dots connect, what are the pieces and how they come together, and with such tenderness, depth and sensitivity.
Thanks so much for sharing that. I have to run to work, but I just wanted to say how much your post moved me. Also I wondered where you were lately. You were missed. :)
Posted by B2chica on August 9, 2007, at 8:21:48
In reply to Connecting the unconscious dots - long, posted by DAisym on August 9, 2007, at 2:21:40
(((((((Daisy))))))))
i am Very touched by your strength and insight. it truly IS amazing how these dots connect in our lives.
...and it seems you have a very sensitive T (a Definate GOOD thing!) that he thought about where you were before sharing his own personal good news.
i'm glad that that new person wasn't there and you felt 'relaxed' enough to let out "what changed". it's amazing how the difference of one person in a group can make.
i can't tell you how much i appreciate you telling us this...i guess when i read it, it really made me look at my own 'dots' ...i just had to say you amaze me everyday daisy. you are working SO hard. you should be proud of yourself...i know i am.
the one thing that i feel is tough sometimes is how hard...truly hard we work at our lives and therapy...and No one else but those here (or others in our situations) Truly know how HARD we are working at making a 'normal' life for ourselves. No one else knows to be TRULY proud of how much effort we are making and how difficult it is...
well i just wanted you (and others here at babble) to know that 'I' recognize this. and i am proud of all of us for working so hard!and thank you for sharing Daisym....
hugs!
b2c.
Posted by Squiggles on August 9, 2007, at 11:23:17
In reply to Connecting the unconscious dots - long, posted by DAisym on August 9, 2007, at 2:21:40
> So - I'm sorry I haven't been around much, I've been kind of a mess. And I'm sorry this got to be so long. (not that this is new for me.) Anyone else have one of those "ah ha!" kinds of moments - and how do you make conscious those unconscious pockets of crud?
>
>I think you're lucky to have a therapist you can relate to. I am stubbornly against psychotherapy. I think i am aware of my consiousness but i make cognitive mistakes due to emotional drives, like fear. But after a turn-around of a crisis in my relationship, i am warming up to the idea that *cognitive therapy* may have been good for me if not both of us. I think that much of my lack of trust comes from a lack of communication or clear messages that alleviate fears or doubts because of bad communication.
In the absence of believable messages, i think the person is left with making a choice on the basis of his or her will alone-- heck, it's almost like a leap of faith. I do prefer truthfullness as a foundation of faith, though.:-)
Squiggles
Posted by Fallsfall on August 9, 2007, at 17:18:56
In reply to Connecting the unconscious dots - long, posted by DAisym on August 9, 2007, at 2:21:40
how do you make conscious those unconscious pockets of crud?
Good for you, Daisy. You are becoming more aware of the things that influence your life.
You are getting better at realizing that you are upset. That's the first step. The second step is to admit that you are upset. You are getting good at that, too! Then you need to talk when you are upset, you are doing that, too! But what do you talk about? You talk about whatever seems important to you. I find that if I go into a session with the idea that I WANT to figure out why I'm upset that it helps. Then when I'm in the session, I need to try to just talk about whatever I'm thinking about. If I suddenly think about my unmade bed, or going swimming as a kid, or an old boss, or what I need to buy at the grocery store, I tell him that. For those sessions, a good portion of them is just me saying whatever random thing I am thinking about. Over the course of the session, sometimes the same subject will come up over and over (maybe I'll talk about how my daughter didn't clean up, and how my boss hasn't finished the plan he needed in January, and how my mother can't figure out how to turn her computer off - as well as 10 other seemingly unconnected things). But if you look at those three things, I feel like I have to pick up the slack for my daughter, boss and mother - and maybe that is what is bothering me - that I want to pick up the slack for myself instead of them. If I didn't spend 30 minutes talking randomly, those three subjects wouldn't have all come up. And I can tell that we found the right topic when he (or I) say "Sounds like you need to pick up the slack for a lot of people", and I feel sick.
At least that's how I make the unconscious things conscious. The truth is in your mind, you just need to be receptive to seeing it.
Posted by Squiggles on August 9, 2007, at 17:30:43
In reply to Re: Connecting the unconscious dots - long » DAisym, posted by Fallsfall on August 9, 2007, at 17:18:56
But what if you know exactly what is wrong
in your life, but you can't do anything about it?
How can a therapist help you then? Only a priest
perhaps (if you are religious) or a lawyer if things can be reversed.
"Love Is Pleasing(Traditional Irish)
I wish, I wish, I wish in vain
I wish I was a youth again
But a youth again I can never be
Till apples grow on an ivy treeI left me father, I left me mother
I left all my sisters and brothers too
I left all my friends and my own religion
I left them all for to follow youAnd love is pleasin' and love is teasin'
And love is a pleasure when first it's new
But as it grows older sure the love grows colder
And it fades away like the morning dewAnd the sweetest apple is the soonest rotten
And the hottest love is the soonest cold
And what can't be cured love must be endured love
But my own true love I will ne'er more beholdFor love and porter makes a young man older
And love and whiskey makes him old and grey
And what can't be cured love must be endured love
And now I am bound for AmericayOh, love is pleasin' and love is teasin'
And love is a pleasure when first it's new
But as it grows older sure the love grows colder
And it fades away like the morning dew."
Squiggles
Posted by sunnydays on August 9, 2007, at 18:16:11
In reply to Connecting the unconscious dots - long, posted by DAisym on August 9, 2007, at 2:21:40
> If you'd asked me years ago, I would have sworn I didn't have an "unconscious." I still struggle with the idea of being motivated by something not conscious, it feels sort of out of control, which I hate being. But no matter how I feel about it, it is hard to deny when the dots get connected.
*** Absolutely. I was skeptical until I really got into therapy and saw that there are so many things I do and ways I react that I cannot explain by any conscious motivation. And I hate it sometimes how good my T is at pointing out those connections.
> It started last week. I had to call my therapist because I was running late and he'd changed his outgoing message to say "you've reached the office of Dr...." I almost wrecked the car -- "Dr."? I knew he'd been working on his PhD but obviously it was now a done deal. So I opened the session with that - "I noticed you changed your answering machine..." and he said yes. "It" had happened a "few weeks ago." I congratulated him on three years of hard work and we talked about his dissertation and it seemed fine. I knew I was sitting on those feelings of "this was a big deal happening to you and I didn't know it, since I'm just a client" but I managed to sort of swallow all of that and we had an OK session. But group that night went badly (we have a new person) particularly around an EMDR discussion.
**** I would have been upset too if my T had done something big like that and didn't tell me. I totally understand.
>
> I brought my feelings about group into my next session and we talked about EMDR. I said clearly I didn't want to do it and my therapist went down this long tangent about how he's read it is very effective and maybe it might help me and how it would be better if he could do it but he wasn't certified to do it but he could refer me, etc. I guess he must have realized how I was taking it because he also said, "it wouldn't change the work we are doing here, I'd still work with you, it would just be an adjunct and it might help with the nightmares, etc." Of course I said I knew that. And of course, I was really upset and felt sent away.**** I soooo understand that feeling. I get it all the time. My T makes a suggestion and I cannot seem to shake the feeling that he's really sick of me and doesn't want to see me anymore.
I barely talked to him the next session but at the end I finally, in tears, told him how upset I was knowing full well he didn't say "go away." So I was struggling with feelings that didn't match the reality.
**** Good for you for telling him. That can be so hard when you know what the reality is but can't make yourself believe it. I think it's something my T struggles with with me. He's not that experienced with transference stuff (although he's so good with it, it's hard to believe I'm the first client that's ever been willing to talk this deeply and openly about our relationship). But I think he really wants me to be able to believe him and trust him, but neither of us is sure how to make it 'stick'. I can feel it for a little bit, and then it's gone. So I know what you're talking about.
>
> I made myself tell my therapist how I felt after the session the next day. This is new for me because I don't usually say anything until I have it all figured out.**** Good for you. It's such a huge risk to say things without thinking them out. I am getting better at it, but when I started therapy I barely talked because I was dissociating so much and I wanted to make sure that everything I said was said perfectly.
And then it all got twisted up and I ended up saying I needed to cut back on therapy and that I was worried I wasn't getting through it all fast enough for him and that the need and connection for him was painful, not helpful. I wasn't very nice...:( He said he was sad to hear that I was hurting like this and sad that our connection was painful for me.
**** I've said that sort of thing. That it hurts to love him so much and not be able to be with him all the time. He always looks so sad when I say that, but he understands. Your T understands too. It's ok not to be nice all the time.
Today we looked at it all together. A very young part of me is terrified (hence the impending sense of doom) that since my therapist got his PhD everything will change and he will leave me. This is not based in any reality and I am just shocked at how the dots connect.
**** It makes total sense to me. I mean, if I think my therapist might be leaving because he had a pad of paper on his side table that isn't usually there (true story, happened last session I saw him, but I didn't tell him) then what you are saying makes total, total sense.
> So - I'm sorry I haven't been around much, I've been kind of a mess. And I'm sorry this got to be so long. (not that this is new for me.) Anyone else have one of those "ah ha!" kinds of moments - and how do you make conscious those unconscious pockets of crud?
**** It's ok to be around even if you're a mess, just so you know. :) Maybe we can help you. I know your posts help me so so much. I was thinking of you the other day wondering how you were. I wish I could answer how to make the unconscious conscious. I'm pretty sure you can't until something like this happens. And it's so so hard.
((((Daisy)))) You are so brave and doing such good work.
sunnydays
Posted by OzLand on August 9, 2007, at 19:52:43
In reply to Connecting the unconscious dots - long, posted by DAisym on August 9, 2007, at 2:21:40
This is all so fantastic, DAisym. I know it has been painful, but I can tell how hard you have worked on trust and the issues, etc. This is just great making the link with your therapist and father. I am saying three cheers!!
Do I ever know what you are going through. Am feeling the anxiety I have been having for seveal days now. Like you I want to figure things out myself before going to therapy. Wednesday I blurted something out I thought I would never be able to say outloud, and then I said I don't understand. He said it is understandable and we will get there. I know it has to do with the damn csa.
Sometimes I want to rush too, but this is the worst thing we could do to ourselves as then the work is not really done as it should be. I am glad you have a therapist who knows this. I am so sorry about the nightmares, though. I have not been remembering any dreams. I think it is a blessing for now.
And feeling needy; do I EVER know what you mean. This is one thing I know my therapist worries about, that I have not had people there in my life who can be emotionally supportive. I don't want to need him as what if he says go away; I am tired of you. This is not based in reality, I know, but my mother was like that; if I needed her she distanced; if she needed me, she smothered me. AGGH!! Poor mom, though, she died a horrible death, and so I feel guilty saying anything negative about her. We had a better relationship in the last 20 years of her life.
I just have to say again, you made my day with your hard work and insights. Most definitely you deserve the medal of honor for the day, week, and maybe for weeks to come. YEs??
OzLand
Posted by Fallsfall on August 9, 2007, at 20:56:58
In reply to Re: Connecting the unconscious dots - long » Fallsfall, posted by Squiggles on August 9, 2007, at 17:30:43
A therapist can help you accept the reality.
Posted by Squiggles on August 9, 2007, at 21:05:38
In reply to Re: Connecting the unconscious dots - long » Squiggles, posted by Fallsfall on August 9, 2007, at 20:56:58
> A therapist can help you accept the reality.
Oh, thank you Fallsfall. That's probably
why i avoid them. :-)Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on August 9, 2007, at 22:24:43
In reply to Re: Connecting the unconscious dots - long » Fallsfall, posted by Squiggles on August 9, 2007, at 21:05:38
Sqiggles I thought things were better? Love Phillipa
Posted by Squiggles on August 10, 2007, at 4:20:03
In reply to Re: Connecting the unconscious dots - long » Squiggles, posted by Phillipa on August 9, 2007, at 22:24:43
> Sqiggles I thought things were better? Love Phillipa
Yes, better. I think there are still some
medical adjustment problems-- that post was
just whimsical. My parents are getting old and
that is a stressful situation too.Don't worry about me. I tend to learn from my mistakes.
tx
Squiggles
Posted by slugdoo on August 10, 2007, at 10:23:19
In reply to Connecting the unconscious dots - long, posted by DAisym on August 9, 2007, at 2:21:40
I have been thinking about your post now and not knowing what to say other than that connection to the dots was so very powerful. I am in awe of that. That explains how it went directly to your heart when you heard about your T. It wasn't because he didn't tell you either, it was so much more than that.
I hope your T will consider getting the training for EMDR because he is so awesome now , but that would make him a "Super hero T" .
Posted by gardenergirl on August 10, 2007, at 16:05:53
In reply to Connecting the unconscious dots - long, posted by DAisym on August 9, 2007, at 2:21:40
> I knew I was sitting on those feelings of "this was a big deal happening to you and I didn't know it, since I'm just a client" but I managed to sort of swallow all of that and we had an OK session.
I would have that same feeling, especially about something that was a "visible" change. Like if my T had surgery and didn't tell me that's why he was off, and then showed up with an obvious sign of it.
> I made myself tell my therapist how I felt after the session the next day. This is new for me because I don't usually say anything until I have it all figured out. He wants me to try and think things through with him, during sessions and not be on my own with all it.
I'm sure that was really scary. Good for you for giving it a shot.
> Today we looked at it all together. A very young part of me is terrified (hence the impending sense of doom) that since my therapist got his PhD everything will change and he will leave me. This is not based in any reality and I am just shocked at how the dots connect. I told him I feel a little foolish, like this is a stretch to explain my feelings the past week. He said it makes perfect sense to him, especially given my reaction last night.I agree, it makes perfect sense. It's hard, though, when there's something really powerful and also "irrational" to the adult mind. When you can look at it and say, "But that would never happen," or "this is different," it feels like you "should" feel okay about it. But there's that other way of looking at it, the child mind, that matters too. These days, I spend a lot of time prefacing whatever feeling I'm having with, "but I know that ..., etc." explaining the rational, as if I need to show him that I "know better." Ugh, did I just write that? I guess to show him that I ALSO know the adult context.
> So - I'm sorry I haven't been around much, I've been kind of a mess. And I'm sorry this got to be so long. (not that this is new for me.) Anyone else have one of those "ah ha!" kinds of moments - and how do you make conscious those unconscious pockets of crud?I've had aha moments, and they come with such a strong feeling of "rightness", even if it does feel like a stretch. Sometimes it takes repetition for me to really "get" the connection. But with that therapy spiral, they always come back for another chance. :)
I think that in time, we get better at looking at something to gently probe to see if there are some dots to connect. Why am I reacting this way? It doesn't make sense, or it seems too intense. Then we start thinking and looking at it, and we get to where we can start connecting the dots easier. I guess we just get more familiar with the crud--a first name basis, so to speak, so we get better at working with it? There are always going to be things that stay hidden, though. I don't think it's possible to know everything in our unconscious. But that's just me. No scientific or theoretical evidence to back that up. :)
Daisy, over time you've connected more and more dots. It shows in your posts here. I hope that you are finding that therapeutic.
Maybe we can color pictures of our dots. Haven't done a good dot-to-dot picture in ages. ;)
Take care,
gg
>
>
Posted by antigua3 on August 13, 2007, at 9:19:19
In reply to Connecting the unconscious dots - long, posted by DAisym on August 9, 2007, at 2:21:40
Sorry I'm so late to this. Too many things going on and trouble posting.
Daisy, be proud of figuring that out! It's an incredible link that will help you with your T. He may have the PhD, but he's not your father, but it's natural that you would think everything would change once you learned about this. And it certainly affects the trust issue, but you're talking about it and that can only help.
I'm sorry it hurts so badly, though, but the pain will lessen eventually. Maybe not now, or not easily, but hopefully it will.
best,
antigua
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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