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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 27 to 51 of 60. Go back in thread:
Posted by slugdoo on August 7, 2007, at 17:29:24
In reply to Re: I thought it was just a bad dream, posted by 10derheart on August 7, 2007, at 16:54:04
Oh, Tender, I am sorry I got to you and others here, I was just trying to unload, I didn't realized how others would be affected by it, I don't want to hurt anyone. Should I have used a trigger? I didn't even think of that at the time I was so in shock.
I am sure his next appointment of seeing his heart doc. was effecting him with me, it happened before. Remember that? How that one time he was outright rude to me? He did appolize for that. He was worried because last time they took a tube down his nose and shocked his heart, and he was anxious that it could happen again.
So I wonder if that was the case this time. But I told him after we discussed this, DO NOT SCHEDULE ME before those kind of exams. He even told me that he thought he was okay, and didn't realize it was effecting his clients, and that he now know that it did. So why the hell did he do it again after I told him not to? I would rather have him cancel than be a total *ss during my appointment. I don't know if any of this is the case, but I just can't take that from him. It hurts to the core.
I have also been thinking that our relationship is getting to the point where it has blurred the lines of professional and friendship with stricter boundries. It did feel good, but I also see how it can really hurt me too. I love him very dearly and am grateful for all the good stuff he hashelped me doe, but now that relationship is hurting me, and I need to stop it. It is so hard because I freakin adore him so much. I hope my new T will work with me on this. I am going to tell him what happened, but I won't tell him who my (old T, that sounds weird ) is because they probably know each other. Plus this new T works in the same office as one of my professiors this semesters and last year.
This will be different kind of environment, my T had a secretary that he shared with lawyers on the same floor, this new T, is in an restored old house with lots of T's and a office staff. So it will take time getting used to. But you know what, my gut feeling is I did the right thing, even if it is killing me inside, but a small part of me is feeling relief today.
So I am sure he didn't tend to hurt me on purpose, he isn't that way, but he did, and too many times too, our relationship just got to friendly. I knew too much about him. I think I want to tell this new T, don't tell me anything unless I ask about yourself. Don't act like my friend either, and if you are attracted to me, refer me to someone else, okay. ;-)
Posted by OzLand on August 7, 2007, at 22:56:44
In reply to More, posted by slugdoo on August 6, 2007, at 16:49:12
WOOO, slugdoo. First, you said your therapist said he does like you. Second, he did not say he doesn't care about you outside the sessions. He said he doesn't go around thinking about you all the time or the other people he sees. I realize it seems he must not care; I was where you are once upon a time. I also know that just because I did not go around thinking about patients after hours, it did not mean I didn't care. If a therapist went around thinking about patients 24-7, that therapist would soon be ineffective and unable to help. I know that must sound weird, but it is true.
Don't give up on your therapist yet. It sounds like it was too much for him to hit you with all at once--rather blunt. Sorry about that.
Oz
Posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 4:20:21
In reply to Re: More » slugdoo, posted by OzLand on August 7, 2007, at 22:56:44
> WOOO, slugdoo. First, you said your therapist said he does like you. Second, he did not say he doesn't care about you outside the sessions.
He said he didn't
care about me period.
He said he doesn't go around thinking about you all the time or the other people he sees.
Well I know this and don't expect him to, I think you are totally misunderstanding my posts. I really don't think you know me or the situation very well so I will take it with a grain of salt as to what you said. Like I said I don't need hear anyone defending him right now. What he said was cruel and uncalled for and his behavior was unprofessional.Would you tell your "patients" that if they die you won't go to their funeral? (whether or not you do, but would you tell them that)
Would you tell them that you don't care about them whether in session or out of session? (whether or not you do, would you tell them that to their face especially after 2 1/2 years)
Would you make light of someone crying after you scared them and made you cry because they were scared of you? And how could anyone joke about someone crying for the 1st and 2nd times in the last 2 weeks of therapy of over 2 1/2 years span, where in their past history of childhood abuse would be tortured worse if they did cry and was taught NOT to cry for protection.
I don't feel there is any reason or justification of what he did. I am here for support of feeling hurt right now by what he said and did. I don't hink my T needs support right now, he isn't he one posting.
I realize it seems he must not care; I was where you are once upon a time. I also know that just because I did not go around thinking about patients after hours, it did not mean I didn't care. If a therapist went around thinking about patients 24-7, that therapist would soon be ineffective and unable to help. I know that must sound weird, but it is true.
>
> Don't give up on your therapist yet. It sounds like it was too much for him to hit you with all at once--rather blunt. Sorry about that.
>
> Oz
Posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 5:02:39
In reply to Re: More » OzLand, posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 4:20:21
I didn't mean to be snippy with you, I am just not in the best of places right now, and shouldn't have said what I said to you.
Posted by Nathan_Arizona on August 8, 2007, at 7:59:15
In reply to Re: HOLY CRAP!!!!, posted by sunnydays on August 7, 2007, at 14:31:02
While I may disagree with your position in this particular case, I think you bring up a good overall point:
When DO we cut our therapist some slack vs when DO we seek help elsewhere?
It's a tough call no doubt.
Especially because there are usually a lot of reasons to stay (time with T, knowledge of history, having to start over w/someone else, financial reasons etc...).
Now add to that, there may be some significant "transference" issues, issues of trust, and resistance issues on our part and sometimes it is really hard to see clearly the right thing to do.
In my therapy, there are times when my T has screwed up royally, we worked through it and we were able to continue our work. Sometimes the decisions he made to push my progress set me back a good bit.
However, one thing he never has done was to bring his own personal issues into my therapy space. In my mind, that would have been absolutely toxic to my recovery and grounds for termination.
I think we have to be able to trust that our therapist will remain as neutral as they possibly can be. We need their decisions about our therapy to be based on their professional competence and experience rather than their personal issues.
For instance, in my fourth year of therapy, my T's mother died. I had no idea until another client told me weeks later about having read the obituary.
Now I have some god awful mother issues and despite what he must have been going though, he didn't even bring it up or into my time.
I think we have a right to expect this level of professionalism, but I am interested in other's thoughts on the matter.
Natie
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2007, at 8:58:01
In reply to When to stay, and when to move on » sunnydays, posted by Nathan_Arizona on August 8, 2007, at 7:59:15
I think needs vary a lot between clients, so it would be hard to judge. My therapist got into the habit of briefly disclosing because I was too good at picking up his mood, and blaming myself. Boundaries got shifted more during the post Katrina period where he really wasn't doing very well, but I really didn't want to stop seeing him. They're closer now to what they used to be, but I'm not sure they can ever really go all the way back. The important boundaries he keeps though. And if he didn't, I would.
I'm not sure at this point in my therapy that there is anything my therapist could do that would make me stop seeing him. Except perhaps to not be himself for a long period of time. I came close to it before he moved back, because every time I went, he wasn't really there. He didn't feel like himself, and stopping seeing him would have just been formalizing what had already happened. I think at this point, except for that, stopping seeing him would have to come on my end, because I didn't think I needed it any longer. Anything else I'd stay and fight through.
I'm not saying it's right. Or best. Not even for me and certainly not for anyone else. But it's kind of who I am.
Posted by sunnydays on August 8, 2007, at 9:12:45
In reply to When to stay, and when to move on » sunnydays, posted by Nathan_Arizona on August 8, 2007, at 7:59:15
I agree that T's should not bring their issues into the room. I do think that sometimes that can be difficult, however. I am reminded of when my T was seriously injured and called me when he was feeling sick from the pain meds. I felt so horrible that he would think he needed to call me when he felt like that (he had to hang up after about a minute because he felt like he was going to throw up). But at the same time, it really showed that he cared about me and understood that I would be really scared he was dead or something.
My T discloses quite a bit to me, but that is because I wouldn't trust him if I didn't know quite a bit about him. I think there probably have been times where his personal issues have affected him. And there have certainly been times I was ready to quit because he said something that I interpreted as meaning that I was too difficult or that he hated me. When he explained it later, it became clear that he really hadn't meant it like that, even though that's how it sounded. One time he made a sarcastic comment at a really bad moment, but he basically spent the session apologizing (I thought he was going to cry). He was explaining that sometimes when he does that I smile and that he was just trying to make me feel a little better by bringing in some humor, but obviously it backfired totally. He did so well that session with the apologizing, that I felt more trusting of him than I ever had before after that. That's why I'm such an advocate of giving a T at least one chance to make things better. I was ready to not go back after that comment, but by giving him that chance it totally changed my therapy for the better.
sunnydays
Posted by frida on August 8, 2007, at 12:28:24
In reply to When to stay, and when to move on » sunnydays, posted by Nathan_Arizona on August 8, 2007, at 7:59:15
hi..
I've read Doo's situation and I would be so devastated if my T said that to me. It's such a hurtful thing to say...and it seems to me that he was kind of...protecting himself, but not speaking truth...
It's hard :-( I'm sorry Doo that this happened. I would be devastated.
As to when to say or when to move on...
I have to agree with Dinah, but that's just who I am too. I try to fight till the end.
My T has disclosed quite a bit to me too, and it has helped strengthen the bond between us and it helped me see her more human and trust her more. She has modelled to me how to share (It's really hard for me to talk from my heart) and has shared very personal things that I value a lot. (about her childhood, past). I feel she cares and she's proven that to me. I know she thinks of me sometimes outside sessions and sometimes tells me about a movie, book, little child that has reminded her of me or something we've talked about...
But we've had really hard moments too and have had to work through them...
I think the only thing that would make me stop going would be if she says and means it that she doesn't care about me or that I'm bad or something like that....
We've had some rough times...Once she gave me an ultimatum that if I didn't talk she couldn't help me and I'd have to stop seeing her. It was bad for me to feel threatened and I felt really scared. I know now that when she says these things she just tries to make me react and come out of my isolation, even if it doesn't work.
She has encouraged me to express my anger towards her or to disagree and fight back.There have been times when her personal issues have influenced our sessions, but she has always been open and I prefer that.
For example, once I was in the elevator going to see her, and she was obviously nervous and was going to leave me a note and had to cancel our session just like that. I felt lost...but later she explained that her mother was sick and she had been called because of an emergency. (her mother died some months after that moment)
And other times she has been "absent" or not totally herself and I've noticed and she has briefly told me when something happened.She has also made mistakes and has said painful things to me which made me feel really, really bad..moments in which I wished I hadn't had a session because it just made it all wrong. But somehow we've worked through those difficulties, and re-built trust. Sometimes I've felt that it was impossible but we've managed.
I've seen my T for 7 years...and I feel grateful for the times she has disclosed something about herself...It has helped and made me trust her more.
So, I guess I'd try to fight for the relationship, but the only thing that would hold me back is if I felt she didn't care. I'd give her a chance to explain and apologize if she did something that hurt me and felt cruel. I would at least hear what she has to say.
I'm not saying this is the right thing to do...just what I feel.
Having said all this, hearing my T say that she wouldn't come to my funeral if I died, would be totally devastating. I'd expect her to have an explanation and apologize and explain why she said such a hurtful, cruel thing and destroy the trust that took so long to build.
I am sorry this happened.
Frida
Posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 16:39:29
In reply to Re: When to stay, and when to move on » Nathan_Arizona, posted by frida on August 8, 2007, at 12:28:24
I think my choice to move on wasn't an overnight decison, it was something on my mind a lot this year. I feel the chemistery between my T and me is special, but it wasn't taking care of my therapy needs good enough. Not that he is a bad T, I think he is only human, and I think he liked me a whole lot more than he will admit even to himself. I believe he lost his objectivity somewhat, thinking I was really "recovered" because of higher functionality.
But I knew for a long time something wasn't right, I even tried to believe him and try to be all right, well it did't work. My present is triggering my past. I am not suffering from PTSD any longer, but I believe I still trigger and act irrational especially involving my anger when I feel threatened. (perceived and real sometimes)
. And this new T agrees that we should dive in when I am ready to the deeper stuff. The EMDR will be a big part of it.
I was even thinking that when I terminated with my old T at the end of the year as we planned, I was going to try to find a new T. In a way, getting angry at him and feeling really hurt by him almost made it easier for me to move on. Plus since that last session, I have calmed down, and I still feel hurt and less angry at him, but I see what he has given to me. It is kinda bittersweet really.
But in reality, I think he should have stopped the therapy relationship, but maybe it would have caused more harm that way I think, but things became muddy over the last year with the boundries and I feel therapy wasn't being as productive as it should have been.
I feel like it is a fresh new start, it is like I can get a different perspective and hopefully grow even more. My T said my old T did a good job getting me started, but he was going to fine tune me and get me to where I need to be for my personal, educational (phd. work IS stressful) , and my future employment.It was kinda funny today, my new T has in his office displays of his family and he started to show them, then remembered what I said, and then looked at me, and I covered my eyes and and said "I am NOT looking". lol He laughed, who knows what he is thinking, but oh, well, I got my point across. LOL
I think I can work with this guy and I believe I made the right desison. I have learned a lot from this process.
I am a concerned that my T might be angry and hurt , he really did enjoy working with me, and he took pride in what he said"damn good job " he has done with me. But I think I wore him out. LOL And not working with me will hopefully help with his heart condition. ;-) But I still might sneak a look at those lovely legs once in a while. ;-) But I am going to move on like Llupsie said, HF style! :-)
Posted by JoniS on August 8, 2007, at 19:02:18
In reply to Re: When to stay, and when to move on, posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 16:39:29
This is just a quick observation-
It seems to me like a few posters are minimizing the session Doo had with her T; chalking it up to ...just a bad hour... or something like that. I dont see it so simple as a bad session or just a "boundary crossed too far..." T's are held to an extremely high standard And they should be. What if we were talking about a surgeon? What Doo's T did was like a heart surgeon sewing the valves shut (excuse my lacking in medical terminology) That's more than a "bad day" that is catastrophic. What Doo's T did could have been "catastrophic" to her mental health & progress toward healing. IMO
I allow my T to be human and he shares some of his personal stuff so I see he's human. But to be intentionally mean & insensitive due to his own issues is inexcusable. I love my T too, but I wouldn't stand for that.
I think Doo did a very good and appropriate thing.
Posted by sunnydays on August 8, 2007, at 19:26:38
In reply to ...when to move on...Observation, posted by JoniS on August 8, 2007, at 19:02:18
I am not trying to minimize this at all. I have been absolutely devastated by comments my T has made and I absolutely believe they are held to a high standard and should be. But I also don't see how this proves he was being "intentionally mean and insensitive". Without allowing him to give his point of view, or even have a chance at apologizing or trying to right what he did wrong, I don't see how his intentions can really be determined at all. What he did is inexcusable. But... if he doesn't have a chance to apologize and make it right, how can we say it would be catastrophic. I went out on a limb and shared a time when my T made me think of quitting - and the apology he gave made our relationship stronger. I would see quitting as fine if he never apologized. I just wonder about not giving him the opportunity.
I seem to have offended some people, since I'm pretty sure I'm one of the posters that it was implied that I am minimizing this. I am NOT. I just feel that without giving the T an opportunity to apologize, nothing at all will ever be resolved of this hurt. It can't be known either way whether the hurt was intentional or not. And it seems like it would be easier to move on if it was known one way or the other. But I could be wrong.
I just don't see why sd's T shouldn't get one second chance. Not a third or fourth chance, just a second one. IMO, except in a very very few circumstances, everyone in this world should get a second chance. It's a controversial stance, and a lot of people don't agree with me. But I very strongly believe that everyone should get a second chance. One chance to make things right.
But it seems that my views may not be appreciated here, so I'll try to hold off posting as much as I can. I haven't been doing so well emotionally myself, and Babble seems to just be upsetting me more. I don't want to change people's minds, but I don't like it when my views are not correctly understood.
I'm sorry everyone. I'll go back to my cave and hide for a while. Maybe I'll be back when my T gets back, I'll have to think about it. I'm trying to learn to take care of myself, and maybe Babble can't be a part of that.
sunnydays
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2007, at 19:44:18
In reply to ...when to move on...Observation, posted by JoniS on August 8, 2007, at 19:02:18
I'm not minimizing anything. I tend to urge caution when people are angry and hurt because often actions taken in those circumstances lead to consequences that people aren't necessarily prepared for. Especially when they come as a surprise in a relationship that was otherwise apparently going well. It's not a stance that I base on principle, precisely, but more on pragmatic considerations of the effects of loss.
But as it happens, I think SD has put a lot of thought into this, and she was really articulate in detailing them in another thread.
I also would be devastated if my therapist said what SD's therapist said. But everyone comes with a different background, different limits, and different ideas about what is and isn't acceptable. And I think that's ok.
Posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 19:49:51
In reply to Re: ...when to move on...Observation » JoniS, posted by sunnydays on August 8, 2007, at 19:26:38
Hi Sunnydays,
I do appreciate your comments and I like what you said and I do agree with a lot of it. The thing is that maybe you don't know, is that this has happened more than once. Plus there are other boundry crossing I am will not post on the boards. So to be fair, it wasn't just this one thing. He can still appolize to me if he wishes, I have left the line of communtication open with him . In my message today I told him how much he has helped me and a lot more, and I would like to clear the air with him because we see each other at the gym. So the ball is in his court.
I think it really doesn't matter what his intentions were, whether it was a mistake of his countertransference or whether he meant to hurt me ( i feel it is the 1st reason probably), but he still hurt me. And I have to decide how much I can take of this. But overall the theraputic help from him has declined this year. Who knows really why, but somewhere he stopped being my T, and more like a friend. That did feel good, I enjoyed the attention, but when those boundries can back and he did it really cruel, It killed my heart. I know he is doing it in part to convince himself of what he feels, I think he is denial. But I am able to look at the good in the situation, I guess I learned that from him, and I have learned to forgive him for what he did intentionally or not. I don't know if this helps shed more light on my situation. I have been on the boards for over 2 years now, so some of babblers know the struggles I have had. Please stay around, I like to hear what you have to say. ((((Sunnydays))))
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2007, at 19:54:35
In reply to Re: ...when to move on...Observation » JoniS, posted by sunnydays on August 8, 2007, at 19:26:38
Please don't go in a cave and hide.
Your position comes from your experiences, and your view of relationships, and is likely very influenced by your positive experiences with your therapist.
And that's ok. It really is.
My experiences come from my background of maintaining positive, rewarding relationships with people who were difficult, to say the least. My parents, maybe especially my father, could say really hurtful things sometimes. But in the end I maintained a close relationship with them, and especially with him. If my experiences had been different, if I had kept trying and not been rewarded by ending up with a really beneficial relationship with him, I'd likely think that it wasn't worth persevering in the face of hurtful statements. Really really hurtful statements.
And then I think it also depends on the view of the therapeutic relationship. The more people expect a professional relationship with their therapist, the more they probably won't tolerate unprofessional behavior. The more people see therapy as a long term relationship like any other (at least in some ways), the more they are likely to tolerate occasional bad behavior.
There is no right or wrong, I don't think. There are only different viewpoints. Yours is as valid as anyone else's, although in the end we all have to respect the viewpoint of the person most intimately involved and hope that everything works out well. Which is probably just as well, since the persons most involved are the ones who know all the ins and outs of that relationship.
If that makes any sense.
Please don't leave.
Posted by OzLand on August 8, 2007, at 20:04:13
In reply to sorry Oz, posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 5:02:39
You don't have to apologize; you are right; I would never say those things out loud to someone I was seeing. I would try to understand what it was that made the person feels so vulnerable and uncared for. So, you are right. I can't imagaine ever saying that to someone. I apologize. I am not in such a good place myself. Good think I am not doing therapy with anyone right now.
OzLand
Posted by TherapyGirl on August 8, 2007, at 20:06:27
In reply to Re: ...when to move on...Observation » JoniS, posted by sunnydays on August 8, 2007, at 19:26:38
I agree with you SunnyDays, although I support whatever decision SlugDoo makes.
But I definitely agree with you about giving T's a chance to make it right. And I'm speaking from months of not feeling like I had my T's full attention. On the other hand, one of the important lessons she has taught me (and God knows, it's taken a long time) is HOW to apologize, HOW to make it right when you've hurt someone and HOW to fight to relationship (I'm borrowing Dinah's term here). These were important lessons for me because NO ONE in my family EVER modeled this behavior for me.
So I know where you're coming from and I think it's a side all of us should consider whenever we are thinking of terminating (and it seems like we're all there at one point or another). I hope for SlugDoo that at some point she can have a conversation with her T about what happened. And I didn't find your posts offensive -- I think all of the posts on this thread have been well thought out and I've enjoyed the variety of viewpoints. One of the things that makes this place great is that we learn from each other.
I also believe SlugDoo when she says that she feels like she's gone as far as she could go with her T. I think that's likely true and so I wish her nothing but the best in her new therapy. I suspect (and forgive me, SlugDoo, if I'm wrong about this) that she has known for some time that she needed to make a change and her anger at her T made it easier for her to say goodbye to him. I know that's how it works for me.
Posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 20:09:43
In reply to Re: ...when to move on...Observation » sunnydays, posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 19:49:51
I think what I am happy about that I was hurt and very angry at my T , and even if I am not working with him anymore, I still told him how appreciated I am with his help. I tried to end the relationship the best I could. The old me would of just stayed angry and become resentful and tell him to f*ck off jerk. The new me feels empowered to have done something I think was the best for me and that feels so good right now .
Yeah, I am sure my T is upset, even if he won't admit it, but I know I got to him probably too much sometimes. But I hope he can see this is the best thing in the situation now, with time. I know he will be fine, it probably has happened before to him. It would be nice if he called me, I told him I would like him to, but I won't be devestated if he doesn't but I do think it will help clear the air. I think It took a lot of guts to do the right thing, in a situation that is hurtful for me either way.
Posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 20:14:26
In reply to Re: ...when to move on...Observation, posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 20:09:43
I played in front of people today at a church a duet with my trumpet teacher and it went well considering my stage fright and it was the first time since my last solo in Nov. So a good ending to a long day for me.
Posted by sunnydays on August 8, 2007, at 20:38:10
In reply to I also want to add, posted by slugdoo on August 8, 2007, at 20:14:26
Ok, now I'm embarrassed. I'm sorry to everyone. I'll probably stick around. I'd just been having a bad day and I can't deal with much criticism on a good day, and on a bad day I tend to read criticism into places it's not even there. I should have realized that and not reacted so strongly. It definitely does sound like you've put a lot of thought into your decision, sd (having the same initials confuses the heck out of me :) ), and it's probably going to end up being a good decision.
I just feel so very deflated today. I'll make my own thread about that I guess. Sorry again.
sunnydays
Posted by JoniS on August 8, 2007, at 21:43:51
In reply to Re: I also want to add, posted by sunnydays on August 8, 2007, at 20:38:10
Really sorry. I didn't mean to upset you Sunny, or anyone. Maybe sometimes I'm too blunt or too black & white. But I really just meant to express my thoughts, not to criticize anyone, honest. I value everyone's input here.
Sorry again :(Joni
Posted by OzLand on August 8, 2007, at 22:25:25
In reply to Sorry to upset anyone, posted by JoniS on August 8, 2007, at 21:43:51
Me too; I am sorry, and I think I better just shut up and go away for awhile. I don't want to keep crying.
OzLand
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2007, at 23:19:51
In reply to Sorry to upset anyone, posted by JoniS on August 8, 2007, at 21:43:51
I think it's ok to have differing points of view. It's what makes the world interesting, and it provokes thought and self reflection.
No worries, at least not on my part, ok?
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2007, at 23:24:22
In reply to Re: Sorry to upset anyone » JoniS, posted by OzLand on August 8, 2007, at 22:25:25
I'm sorry you're crying. :(
I think your viewpoint is interesting. You come from a perspective that not many of us come by in our experiences, and I think the board would be poorer if you were to go away.
As I said to Sunnydays, I think we all come by our viewpoints honestly, so to speak. There's no need to feel bad about that.
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2007, at 23:38:13
In reply to Re: Sorry to upset anyone » OzLand, posted by Dinah on August 8, 2007, at 23:24:22
I'm thinking that it's kind of an issue that can push all sorts of buttons. Which is no one's fault. It can push buttons about loss, and fear that our therapists really don't care, and any number of other things. Feelings may run a bit high, but I don't think anyone means any but the very best in intentions.
It was one of those Babble issues that I brought up in my session with my therapist, because there are themes that pertain to my therapy as well.
Posted by JoniS on August 9, 2007, at 7:02:57
In reply to Re: Sorry to upset anyone » JoniS, posted by OzLand on August 8, 2007, at 22:25:25
Oz
Please don't go away. Your presence here is important and your contributions are a gift, as are everyones. Sorry you are sad, please don't be hard on yourself and don't go away.
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