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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by frida on May 5, 2007, at 11:37:16
In reply to He threw me out of his office!, posted by pfinstegg on May 5, 2007, at 0:57:51
I'm speechless...
I had read posts by you and thought you had a wonderful relationship with your T and were doing hard work together...
How painful that he did this! :-(No explanations, no nothing? just like that from one day to another after working together for years?
It's so incredibly painful. :-(
I am so so sorry this happened to you.It takes so much courage and strength to ask for help again..I'm glad that you could find a new T and you feel heard.
Please take care,
Sending you support,
FRida
Posted by gardenergirl on May 5, 2007, at 12:18:06
In reply to Re: He threw me out of his office! » pfinstegg, posted by frida on May 5, 2007, at 11:37:16
I'm with everyone else on this, something must have been going on with him that he didn't handle. How incredibly shocking and painful. It must have felt like an absolute nightmare! What courage it took to move forward and start anew with another analyst after such a confusing betrayal. You have a strong spirit. Thank you for sharing it with us.
gg
Posted by pfinstegg on May 5, 2007, at 16:03:40
In reply to Re: He threw me out of his office!, posted by annierose on May 5, 2007, at 7:19:02
Thanks so much, annierose, zazenducke, muffled, Dinah, crushed, Peot, frida, gardnergirl- for all your support and understanding. It means the world to me.
I did get a letter afterwards (with bill), but it blamed me for what he called a "psychotic, deeply entrenched negative father-transference to him, which made further work impossible". This had never come up in therapy, and, even though there may have been some truth in it, I know it wasn't extreme. It was a minor part of the tranference; the longings for secure attachment were a lot more prominent. My husband and I both suspect what annierose suggested- that he may have begun to fall in love with me, or had some powerful, possibly negative counter-transference feelings, and dealt with them by becoming very negative and abusive. It's hard to believe such an experienced, highly thought of analyst would behave like that, and be unable to moderate his feelings by reflection or consultation. Another letter came about two months later, with no mention of what had occurred- just an invitation to return, and a statement that he was deeply committed to our therapy. I didn't respond to that.
Well...I forgot to mention "TRIGGER", but I should have, as so many people have varying issues about their own trust and attachment. I think what happened to me must be very rare and unusual, so I hope it won't worry anyone else.
Thank you again, everyone.
Posted by Daisym on May 5, 2007, at 16:03:55
In reply to He threw me out of his office!, posted by pfinstegg on May 5, 2007, at 0:57:51
My heart breaks for you...and for him.
Something is terribly, terribly wrong in his life. It sounds like a psychotic break, or drug reaction. No way is this loving, steady therapist you've seen for years.
This must feel like a death. The kind of wrenching unexpected blow that shocks one's soul. I am stunned and so sorry, pfinstegg. I agree with GG, how brave of you to reach out again. Did you try to contact your old therapist ever and ask what happened? Or maybe this comes in time...who knows. I think I also agree with AnnieRose - sounds like his feelings overcame him in a powerful counter-transferential way.
Thank you for letting us know what has happened. I wish I could help. Please take good care of yourself.
Gentle Hugs,
Daisy
Posted by pfinstegg on May 5, 2007, at 16:22:05
In reply to Re: He threw me out of his office! » pfinstegg, posted by Daisym on May 5, 2007, at 16:03:55
Thanks so much for your warm and supportive words, Daisy. It did cross my mind that he was behaving in at least a near-psychotic fashion- so different from the calm, empathic, even loving therapist i had known for four years. I'm afraid a reconciliation of some sort is probably not possible, as he seems to be blaming me for the whole thing. The hardest thing has been letting go of the powerful attachment I have had for him, but this is gradually calming down week by week.
The new therapist has been tremendously helpful in pointing out that I have been retraumatized, and, when that happens you do tend to blame yourself for whatever has happened. Since I have been seeing him, I find that I am not doing that nearly as much- in fact, almost not at all.
Posted by annierose on May 5, 2007, at 20:28:24
In reply to what may have happened.., posted by pfinstegg on May 5, 2007, at 16:03:40
I have been thinking about you and your situation all day at work. It is so scary and I know many of us worry that this could actually happen.
I don't what to think about his 2nd letter inviting you to return, stating that he is deeply committed your therapy. How confusing! Again, I applaud your strength for not responding. On some level you must want some sort of explanation, but I agree, it doesn't feel forthcoming. I can't get my brain wrapped around it. My heart feels such warmth for you and what you have been through.
I smiled that he still sent the bill. "Get out of my office --- but don't forget to pay me on the way out." Mixed messages.
Your new analyst sounds like a keeper. I know there is some sort of expression that refers to what I am grappling to say --- out of the fire, emerges new growth and opportunities.
Of course I am curious, how is your new t's office? Are you lying down? Does he have a completey different rhythm to his sessions?
Posted by zenhussy on May 5, 2007, at 21:36:55
In reply to what may have happened.., posted by pfinstegg on May 5, 2007, at 16:03:40
retraumatization can really spin the sense of any forward progress. glad you're w/ a new analyst who can help keep perspective on what occured w/ previous analyst. you are not to blame
YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME!
horrifying that you experienced what you did.
very proud that you kept on the healing path and found new resources.
Posted by pfinstegg on May 6, 2007, at 7:32:32
In reply to horrified for you = ( glad new T is supportive... » pfinstegg, posted by zenhussy on May 5, 2007, at 21:36:55
The new T started by saying that he was there to listen to anything i wanted to tell him. I could tell by his eyes that he really meant it. He didn't say "everything", as the old one had. We talked some about couch versus sitting up, and were in agreement that sitting up would definitely be best "for now" (his words). He said , "having been through something as traumatic as you just have, I think it's important that you receive as much non-verbal information, as well as verbal, from me as possible- and the couch cuts down on that. Using the couch can be good when you are more stable."
You know, the old T really did act sort of crazy, all of a sudden, having been so great before. I don't think he could say anything to me now which could repair it. And, it's been nearly six months since it happened, so I have gone through a lot of grieving and letting go. I miss him a lot, but I wouldn't want to go back.
I think the new T is going to be good- he's quieter and less emotional than the old one, but I'm just a cauldron of emotions myself, so that's probably good, too. You do feel that you are in contact with him- and he with you. That's helped a lot, in just a few sessions.
But these offices!- the last T's office was dreadful- everything black plush- but the new one's is the same! They must all confer with each other about where to buy their furniture. There is a difference- I feel that I could tell the new one my opinion of his office, and he wouldn't become defensive; the old one would have.
We also decided, "for now" that I'll go twice a week, rather than more often, so that I have a chance to calm down and, hopefully, live a more adult life in the days in between. I think he's right about that- going daily is tremendously taxing, as it brings your defenses down, and all your early pain seems to intensify. If your T can handle it, it's probably the best way to really change, but it doesn't always seem to work out that way.
Well, the adult self is off to ride in a dressage horse show. Thank you all, everybody, for your wonderful understanding and support. I'll let you know how things work out with the new T. Even though he looks like he's just been working in his garden, and I feel like throwing everything in his office out the window, I do like him- especially the very honest, attentive expression on his face.
Posted by annierose on May 6, 2007, at 8:16:33
In reply to The new T, posted by pfinstegg on May 6, 2007, at 7:32:32
I think both t's offices speak to the greater truth - their wives didn't help them pick out the furniture!
I like the fact he dresses so casually. Women have so much more leadway into casual acceptable dress. My t dresses casually, but professionally. Most men, especially my husband, feel more comfortable without a suit + tie. My husband is a law partner with an old-time established firm with dress codes for everyone on the payroll. He doesn't care - wears whatever and mocks the system.
I understand the needed restraint for twice weekly sessions. On the other hand, are you aching for a need to purge all that transpired? Do you imagine that your new t knows your former t, and if he has suffered an emotional break?
When I started the work with my t, I also sat up for about 4 - 5 months before she suggested lying on the couch. Then it took another month or so for me to have the courage to give it a try (I remembered telling her it felt like a train was rushing through my body).
Recently, when we had a rupture in our work, she suggested that I go back to sitting up to help me contain my emotions. That was scary too. It felt like a punishment, so I continue to lie down.
Complicated isn't it?
I admire your courage. I always looked up to you and your therapeutic relationship. Your husband has been a rock. You are blessed. I wish you all the best in this new adventure. Thank you for sharing.
Posted by Scentedgarden on May 6, 2007, at 8:27:42
In reply to Re: He threw me out of his office! » pfinstegg, posted by Daisym on May 5, 2007, at 16:03:55
Posted by Racer on May 6, 2007, at 14:11:29
In reply to The new T, posted by pfinstegg on May 6, 2007, at 7:32:32
Hey, Pfinstegg. It's good to see you here, but I'm absolutely sick about what happened to you. I won't say anything that hasn't been said already, though, so just imagine me repeating everything that's been said, 'K?
>
> Well, the adult self is off to ride in a dressage horse show.OK, so tell me more. FEI? What level? Who's judging? Anyone I might know? (I used to scribe, and can certainly name my very favoritest judge to scribe for! I'd bet she only judges on this side of the country, though.) I wish you the squarest halts, and the most balanced haunches.
Tell your results?
Posted by pfinstegg on May 6, 2007, at 18:10:36
In reply to Re: The new T » pfinstegg, posted by Racer on May 6, 2007, at 14:11:29
I think our judges are so obscure, and also East Coast, that no-one would know about them! We are by no means FEI- but have moved up to second level. We got a 60% and a 64% at Second level, first and second., which got us a second and fifth place.
I have a wonderful Hanoverian, with Weltmeyer and Werther as grandsires- he is just beautiful, dappled bay-black, with a really lovely temperment and an eagerness to do his best. I THINK we can do better as the season progresses. Even moving up one level is so challenging and complicated. He has a huge extended trot, which I can't sit to for more than a few strides, and when you post, they take off a lot of points!
Thanks so much for inquiring- I know you know a lot about horses- are you riding now? And thank you, also, for the support. It helps so much in making the transition to the new T.
Posted by pfinstegg on May 6, 2007, at 18:40:23
In reply to Re: The new T » pfinstegg, posted by annierose on May 6, 2007, at 8:16:33
Thanks for your lovely message. I do hope any rupture you have had with your T. will be brief. I think the reason the Ts sometimes want you to sit up, or you feel the need to yourself, is because you can have more "implicit relational knowing"- i.e., the non verbal kind, involving gaze, voice tones, knowledge of the other person's body language. Yesterday, my husband and i went to hear Daniel Stern, and he talked about the importance of that for an entire day- interspersed with case presentations, etc. He really emphasized a model of therapy which stressed the unknowable- just letting the right things grow in the right hemisphere- and de-emphasizing the importance of interpretations and left hemisphere conscious knowing. Very interesting, and it felt right, somehow.
Right now, my new T and I are working on the trauma of the old T. We both feel it's not the right time for the couch, or daily sessions. He says, "perhaps later"
I'm not sure, but I think he knows the old T very well. They are about the same age, and have both been training and supervising analysts. Now my new T is president of the whole thing. They are at least life-long colleagues, and may even be close friends. But my new T is very encouraging in allowing me to tell everything that I am feeling about my last experience, so I feel I can count on his discretion and professionalism. I'm only at the very beginning with him, and so am very cautious. When I say that it is harder for me to be as honest and open this time around, he says it's entirely natural, and just encourages me to talk about "how I don't want to talk".
Thank you, Annie. Do you want to say more about the rupture?
Posted by Racer on May 6, 2007, at 22:07:06
In reply to Re: The new T, posted by pfinstegg on May 6, 2007, at 18:10:36
> We got a 60% and a 64% at Second level, first and second., which got us a second and fifth place.
>Good job! And I know what you mean about sitting those big trots. Of course, it's a little different for us hunters... ;-)
Congratulations, Pfin. And congratulations on your good boy, too. I have a thing about big trots, so he sounds even better to me.
I'm not riding right now, but wish I were. It might help with some of my other problems...
Posted by pegasus on May 6, 2007, at 22:32:08
In reply to He threw me out of his office!, posted by pfinstegg on May 5, 2007, at 0:57:51
OMG! The worst possible therapy nightmare. It's almost unbelievable, but of course, I do believe you. You always seemed to have such a good T . . . it's so shocking.
I am so sorry that you had to go through this. And I'm glad that you were able to come up with the courage to see a new T, and that he seems to be good, and is helping.
Please keep us posted. Did you really have no warning at all? And no further explanation? It does seem as though he must have become terribly unstable for some reason.
peg
Posted by annierose on May 6, 2007, at 22:33:56
In reply to Re: annierose, posted by pfinstegg on May 6, 2007, at 18:40:23
It happened in late February and we have since worked past it. My e-mails to Daisy and talking to my daughter's psychologist for a therapist point-of-view (as she is also a professor where my t went to school) helped me move forward.
With time the intensity of my feelings have subsided and it seems silly now thinking about how angry I became. I had just returned from a vacation and my t canceled 2 appointments and couldn't reschedule a request I made prior to leaving (i.e. 3 appointments went away). It wasn't a great way to start the appointment, so I sulked a bit and became quiet. I said something like, "I feel like you are pushing me away." And her reply felt cold to me, "It's not about you."
The ensuing appointments were tense as she attacked (in my opinion) my disposition as hostile and angry. I was being quiet and reflective wondering, "I missed you, didn't you miss me? And now I'm going to miss 3 appointment within the next 2 weeks ..." She didn't hear that. She kept saying, "I need you to be able to step back and see what is happening isn't about me, it's about your past." We went in circles for a couple of sessions. After I went to speak to my daughter's therapist, a calm came over me. I'm not sure it was what she said, but how she listened and acknowledged that therapist are people too - they have bad days, bad moments, or say things that come out differently than intended. Most of all, she encouraged me to continue the dialogue without necessarily bringing the topic up at the next session, to give it a rest (which was the same advice Daisy had given to me as well).
The next time I saw her there had been a beautiful snowfall. I told her all about my son (who is 8) and his delight in the giant snowflakes. I smiled as he rushed outside in his pj's soaking up the wonder of it all. It disarmed my t in such a way that we were able to talk about our rupture in a more constructive manner.
Funny, thinking about some of the things she said and I said - bring back more details that I had forgotten. She mentioned that maybe it's time for us to give the analysis a rest, maybe I should seek an outside consultation. At one session I thought she was telling me she couldn't work with me, but later I realized I misunderstood what she had said. WOW - it was a complete mess.
The bright spot that came from that --- she wanted me to trust her with all of my thoughts, especially the ones I think but do not say. She encouraged me to free associate, to really do it. Of course she had asked this in the past; now I thought I needed to prove to myself and her that I was capable of this seemingly easy and awkward task. And I'm trying, I really am.
Are you sorry you asked?
Posted by pfinstegg on May 7, 2007, at 7:36:01
In reply to Re: annierose » pfinstegg, posted by annierose on May 6, 2007, at 22:33:56
Not at all! It's a wonderful example of "rupture and repair", if I understand you. And now you are moving more deeply into free association. Even though my own experience ended so badly, there were nearly four years which were very deep and meaningful- both because of the daring to free associate, and because of the interactions between us. I know I got a lot out of those good years.
Posted by pfinstegg on May 7, 2007, at 7:51:36
In reply to Re: He threw me out of his office!, posted by pegasus on May 6, 2007, at 22:32:08
There must have been something going on , but I didn't have any sense of it. I thought I was doing well- going much more deeply into me; earlier in the analysis, I had gotten really angry at him from time to time, but that wasn't happening when the rupture occurred. I do think he kind of broke down, temporarily. My new T said that in a good analysis, the T is supposed to feel the unconscious feelings of the patient- that's important- but NOT, of course, act on them. Acting on them makes the T just like the old parents; reflecting on them, and acting in a new, empathic way provides us with the new experience we are all in need of.
As I get over the shock of what happened, I must admit that I miss the empathic, caring and humorous parts of the old T. But I did have them for four years. There's no going back, now.
Posted by pfinstegg on May 7, 2007, at 7:57:29
In reply to I'm impressed! » pfinstegg, posted by Racer on May 6, 2007, at 22:07:06
Thanks, Racer! The riding was just a life-saver during these past months. Even when I was at my worst, my horse provided a couple of hours of love and comfort every time I could make myself drive to the barn.
Posted by susan47 on May 10, 2007, at 0:52:39
In reply to Re: annierose, posted by pfinstegg on May 6, 2007, at 18:40:23
What a terrible experience this once-beloved T put you through. I feel so sad you had to go through this, and so happy for you that you now have a new, great therapist. Sounds like the last one had a mental or emotional breakdown, or maybe he was self-medicating and had a psychotic break of his very own? I feel so sorry for him, you know, in addition to feeling glad for you, I feel sad for him if he doesn't get professional help. I think, I really hope for everyone's sake, that your new T steps up to the plate and does the right thing, what he knows he should do to protect all this old T's clients present and future, maybe even past. Who knows how often this may have happened with him in the past???
Posted by pfinstegg on May 10, 2007, at 8:45:32
In reply to Re: annierose » pfinstegg, posted by susan47 on May 10, 2007, at 0:52:39
All the points you made are so important. I hadn't yet said a word that day, although I was feeling a lot of painful aloneness (my own past). He seemed to me to be acting in a near-psychotic manner. I think it's hard to get help/support when you are a senior analyst= much easier when you are young.
Of course, initially, I thought there was something awful about me that had caused it. But my husband and new analyst both have been stressing to me that that is not the case. Despite the panful ending, I constantly feel homesick for the nearly four years when he was so great.
Even though the new one is the head of the analytic institute here, I think it's a very gray area as to whether he could make suggestions to the old analyst about getting supervision or help. Everything that happened is so private- and it's really hearsay, which he could easily deny. He also could say that I am psychotic (he actually did say that to me), and can't be trusted. I do suspect that if it happened to me, it's happened to others, too- or is happening. Possibly other people go away and are never heard from again in the analytic community. I feel very sorry for him, too (when I'm not feeling sorry for myself), as he was really wonderful when he was functioning well.
The good thing is that I am doing OK with my new analyst. Thanks for your thoughts!
Posted by susan47 on May 11, 2007, at 1:39:18
In reply to Re: what happened, posted by pfinstegg on May 10, 2007, at 8:45:32
I know for a fact just from reading these boards, that people absolutely do get traumatized by their "therapy" and then disappear. But I don't think it's so much the therapist's fault, necessarily, as a huge flaw in the system itself. I suspect the challenges a therapist faces are absolutely immense and the entire system, I suspect, just isn't responsible enough in policing itself to prevent this type of thing happening .. if we weren't so bloody hung up, as a society, on the theory of love and the so-called damage it can do, if we didn't see love as a powerful method of controlling others from a few really bad examples, if we weren't so damn paranoid .. well, how do you get from here to there? What should the end result of every therapy relationship look like? Who's policing the results?
There simply aren't enough practical checks and balances for the protection of everyone .. and because human emotion can make people frail and volatile we're all afraid of it.
And our paranoia makes everyone sick, really really soul-sick. We should all be helping each other, not condemning ourselves for our healthy feelings.
Posted by pfinstegg on May 11, 2007, at 21:14:59
In reply to Re: what happened, posted by pfinstegg on May 10, 2007, at 8:45:32
I see why he is running everything! He has a very calm, empathic demeanor- calmer than the first one. He doesn't direct anything, but is really helping me process the grief I have been feeling about the collapse of the first therapy relationship. He is also very flexible; when I said that I would start to get worried when he was quiet that he, too, didn't want me in the office, he looked at me and said, really sincerely, " I haven't had any thought like that, but I am very glad you told me that you needed more responsiveness from me." Then he was more responsive! I cry buckets, and leave with swollen eyes and smeared/no makeup, but I'm so glad I found him. It is starting to really feel right and hopeful.
Posted by antigua on May 12, 2007, at 5:57:19
In reply to The new analyst is really good!, posted by pfinstegg on May 11, 2007, at 21:14:59
I am so glad you are starting to feel so good about your new analyst. I was so shocked by what happened to you and felt very, very badly for you. I wish I had pearls of wisdom to help you, but you seem to have found a strong way to deal with it.
best,
antigua
Posted by pfinstegg on May 12, 2007, at 9:23:36
In reply to Re: The new analyst is really good! » pfinstegg, posted by antigua on May 12, 2007, at 5:57:19
Thank you, Antigua. In a better world, one wouldn't have to go to one T to recover from what another T has done. But he allows me to do whatever I feel I need to do, and pointed out that I'm also working on earlier rejections simultaneously- without specifically identifying them. The old T, while an analyst also, was, in a subtle way, quite directive- this one isn't at all. I like that a lot.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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