![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 27. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 20:47:07
It started out with me just being extreme. For the first time, ever, in all 4 years, I didn't go to therapy on Monday and I didn't call. On purpose. I didn't forget, or get caught in traffic. I just didn't go. I sat locked in my office, watching the minutes tick away, knowing I wasn't where I was supposed to be. Boy did I feel in trouble. There was extreme fear. Because I wasn't even sure why I wasn't there. I just couldn't make myself go.
He called - twice -- "this isn't like you, I'm worried." The genuine worry in his voice made me cry. I finally called in (he answered - he never does that! So, I, being the mature person I am, hung up. But I called again later) and left a basic message that I was safe, just too full of anxiety to come see him. After a little more phone tag, we finally connected and had a phone session. I cried my eyes out and told him how awful the weekend had been and how suicidal I was. I told him that the thought of coming in and telling him how bad I feel (again) made me want to throw up. He said, "on me?" Which made me laugh.
So we've been working on this all week. What was I trying to communicate in my silence? The obvious answers are that I need him to really feel how confused I was and how abandoned I felt by my mother and my dad. I asked him, "what did it feel like when I didn't come?" He said he was worried and it felt crummy to not know what was happening but to just feel that something was wrong. I wondered if he felt angry with me. He wondered if I wanted him to.
Yes - I think I wanted him to be mad. Partly because I know how to deal with an angry person and his consistent caring and acceptance scares me and gets uncomfortable. His take is that if he is mad, I can pull away. And in this suicidal state, pulling away is more or less permission to not keep my promise to him about calling first. And he also thinks if he gets mad at me, I can get mad back. And he thinks I'm really mad at him for all the feelings we've opened up about my dad - now and then. There is so much loss in looking at all of this.
Yesterday I asked him why he wanted me to stay alive. I told him it was a serious question, because I know he hates seeing me suffer. He waited a long minute, long enough that I said, "I'll retract the question." He said there were lots of things he could say but that I had to find the reason inside myself, his reasons weren't going to be strong enough. I left upset, knowing he was right. (He did call and check on me last night because I was so upset.)
And then today - really extreme honesty. He jumped in right away saying that he'd thought about my question a lot and he wanted me to know that for him, it simply came down to, "I'd really miss you." He told me how important I am to him, etc. It wasn't about CYA, or his professional reputation, or any of that. It was about missing me, as a person. I said I felt like all I ever do is spread around pain and sadness. He said I just can't see the other stuff right now. I told him that I'd been thinking a lot about acting out on Monday and there were things he should know, because he might not feel the same way about me after I tell him.
I figured out, through some writing homework, that I want him mad at me, because I think he has a right to be for the way I feel and because I "used him" in a sexual dream. I couldn't read to him the whole written piece, but I did force myself to tell him what I was thinking. Because it gets all mixed up with how much power I think I have to turn people into monsters. People I care about hurt me sexually. I care about him. I thought about him sexually. What's next? And I am so ashamed of these dreams and these thoughts. So he should be mad at me for having them - I mean, who do I think I am?
He said, "I'm not mad at you. Why would I be? What is so insulting about being someone's sexual fantasy? It is flattering and it makes perfect sense to me - I'm safe, we have an intense, close relationship and this is an area that is particularly frightening for you. So I think of this as a good thing, even though I know it is embarrassing and hard for you and all that." He was really gentle and sweet and he said I do not have the power to make him hurt me ever - even if I could make him mad, which he isn't. And we talked about the intensity of my feelings for him and how they shift and change and then shift again. I ended up crying (again) and asked if it was still OK that I love him. Just like that - I said it, "Is it really OK that I love you?" He said yes, totally, he is honored. And he said he was touched that I could feel so deeply for him and trust him enough to tell him about it.
At the end of the session, we talked both about feeling suicidal and all this other stuff. I told him I was afraid that my need for lots of contact right now, because I'm feeling so unsafe, was actually, unconsciously, being driven by my need for his attention. He said he doubts it, given the material we are in the middle of, but even if it was, it didn't make it any less real and scary. And he said in the past when we've given these feelings the attention they need, they ease off.
So I'm sitting here thinking about this whole week and I find I'm actually trembling. Do you think this was too much honesty? Would your therapist freak out about all this? I'm terrified that on Monday he will have had time to reflect and decide I'm way too much now. And yet I believe him, when he says he isn't mad or upset with me. Sorry this got so long...I wish I had cookies and milk to share for reading it.
Thanks,
Daisy
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 3, 2007, at 20:56:25
In reply to Extreme Honesty -- really long, posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 20:47:07
My heart aches for you, Daisy, and for all of us who carry the scars of our younger selves with us always.
I don't think my T would freak out and I don't think yours will either. I know my T has had several opportunities to freak out over the years and I'm guessing yours has, too, and they have both just stood beside us and supported us. So I'll be surprised if he doesn't continue to do that.
Both of you handled all this honesty beautifully. I'm proud of you for having the guts to do it and I feel privileged to know you, even if it's just on this board.
And I'd miss you, too, Daisy.
Posted by canadagirl on May 3, 2007, at 21:25:18
In reply to Re: Extreme Honesty -- really long » Daisym, posted by TherapyGirl on May 3, 2007, at 20:56:25
Wow Daisy, my Cybersitter kid-guard program blanked out your post. First time that happened. I hope you are OK. Please take care of yourself.
Posted by Poet on May 3, 2007, at 22:00:18
In reply to Extreme Honesty -- really long, posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 20:47:07
Hi Daisy,
My T and I have talked very recently about how it would effect her if I committed suicide. I don't tell her I'm suicidal to get a reaction from her, it's just such a part of me that I consider it just another thing that needs to be said. She did say it would upset her more if I didn't call her to talk about it, just did it so to speak.
I can't say I've ever had any sex dreams about my T, so I can't offer much advice on that. Though I did buy a shirt and when I say it I said *this is a T shirt.* I plan to wear it to the next session and tell her that it reminded me of her when I bought it.
Anyway, Daisy, I know where you're coming from and how much pain you're in. I wish you weren't so down, and I wish I had a way to make the world better for you. Pass the skim milk and low fat cookies.
Poet
Posted by gazo on May 3, 2007, at 22:32:46
In reply to Extreme Honesty -- really long, posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 20:47:07
wow daisy... how very brave of you. Your post is so moving. Honest. The depth of your pain, fear and timid belief.. how very brave and sweet. i don't think it was too much honesty at all.. i think it's a break through.. one i envy. i would also think your T feels this is very rewarding for him.. because he is having a real effect on your life and progress is visible. My pdoc always said he liked clients like me because he felt he could do something to help.
what you are going though now is powerful and you should be very proud of yourself.
much love and peace
Posted by annierose on May 3, 2007, at 22:41:22
In reply to Extreme Honesty -- really long, posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 20:47:07
You know the answers intellectually, your heart doesn't trust them yet. I think of my T calling me "leery" of her truth.
No, your t isn't freaking out about your session. He is more worried about you and how you are coping, what you are feeling, are you safe. This is what your t is thinking about this weekend. Can Daisy hold on to me and trust me?
Will he miss you? YES!
Will I miss you? Yes!
Will your kids miss you? EVERY SINGLE MOMENT!!You asked him a hard question. He needed time to process it and give you a honest answer. He isn't one to spout off cliche comments. He is thoughtful and kind, just like you.
Even though I don't have the sexual fantasies a part of my therapy, I do suffer those intense feelings. My t comforts me with the same thought, "I'm honored to be a part of your life." It is hard to believe that, isn't it? Why is it easier for us to believe that we just are a date and time, an appointment to fill up their schedule? But there is another conflicting part of our brain that knows the truth, scared to accept it.
The next three days will be hard. I hope you check in with him. You have come such a long way. And it is so darn hard!
I am proud of you. You continue to shine the light in dark places with your soul searching.
Love, Annie
Posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 22:57:19
In reply to Re: Extreme Honesty -- really long » Daisym, posted by TherapyGirl on May 3, 2007, at 20:56:25
You are very sweet. Thank you for the reassurance. It is such an intense, special relationship but it has so many places to worry!
I'm glad you have a therapist who stands besides you. I wish everyone did.
Hugs,
Daisy
Posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 22:58:07
In reply to Re: Extreme Honesty -- really long, posted by canadagirl on May 3, 2007, at 21:25:18
I'm not sure what that means - maybe because of some of the words in my post? Anyway, thanks for trying to read!
Posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 23:01:22
In reply to Re: Extreme Honesty -- really long » Daisym, posted by Poet on May 3, 2007, at 22:00:18
No low fat cookies around here...
I know you know. Thanks for the support. I'm glad you aren't feeling this way right now. I think your therapist leaves lots of space for you to talk to her about all of this, which is really good. I often wonder about making that phone call --- what do you say? "um...hello...this is it?" Sounds like the "I'm going into labor" phone call, doesn't it? *sigh* It is all so amazingly hard.
Posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 23:09:07
In reply to Re: Extreme Honesty -- really long, posted by annierose on May 3, 2007, at 22:41:22
Can you just call him for me and vouch for me? We will be checking in, as hard as that feels right now. He said it is as much for his peace of mind as it is for support for me. It is really hard to keep being honest and not lie and say it is all better.
It is amazing to me that all these intense feelings sit side-by-side. Love and hate, though for different people and different things.
We talked about being a mom and being suicidal. I wonder what kind of parent I am, when I feel like this. What kind of mother wants to abandon her child? He tells me that I'm a good mom in a hard place and that actually it is the child in me wanting to abandon the pain. I wish I could kill off just the pain. It just doesn't work like that.
Posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 23:10:04
In reply to Extreme Honesty -- really long, posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 20:47:07
Posted by muffled on May 4, 2007, at 0:05:38
In reply to Extreme Honesty -- really long, posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 20:47:07
daisy that was a great post.
I am lucky too. My T don't give up on me. I don't understand it. I don't trust it.
And as always, there's that doubt.
My T says I open up a little, it scares the crap outta me, then either I run, or I try to drive her away.
Round and round I go.
Maybe you needed some concrete assurance that he's there for you?
I myself just have such a hard time beleiving all this T stuff. Its so confusing.
As for using him is a sexual dream, I would imagine, if in your inside self, it made it safer for you somehow, well then thats maybe a good thing. Cuz he is there to help. Not sex IRL obvo, but dreams are OK. They can be useful.
Daisy, you got such good in you. I would miss you too.
My pain is not as bad as yours, but I understand mebbe a little, and I am sorry. You are doing good work with a good T. Keep it up, maybe there's some joy awaiting you somewhere down the road.
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by peddidle on May 4, 2007, at 0:32:28
In reply to Extreme Honesty -- really long, posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 20:47:07
Daisy, your post was really touching. I think you were very brave for divulging all those feelings. I wish I could tell you that it was exactly the right thing to do, but, unfortunately, I don't think I've experienced such an intense situation. All I can say is, I wish I had the courage you do to tell your T exactly what you are thinking, exactly when you are thinking it. I have no doubt that my T would be unconditionally accepting, and never freak out about whatever I said, and I know she truly wants to know what's on my mind, but I have such difficulty translating my thoughts into words.
Based on how you described these last several interactions with your T, I can't imagine he would freak out about your extreme honesty. It seems like he truly cares about you, as person, not just as a client. I know that my T cares about my me as a person, as well. I think that is the mark of a really good T-- when they are able to see their clients as real people, and, while not completely disregarding the necessity for some type of boundaries, to realize that some clients may need a little extra contact and help at times. My T often asks me to email her if I think of something that I want her to be aware of, but that I know I will have difficulty bringing up in session. She even asked me to call her one day so that she would know that I was OK. I think your T calling to check on you is just one thing that demonstrates his genuine concern for you.
I am sure the time your T has to reflect on what you told him will only enable him to figure out how he can best help you. I worry that my T will think I'm too much, and get sick of me, as well. But I also know, as I'm sure you do, that that isn't rational.
I hope you feel better soon, and that your next session goes well.
Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2007, at 9:29:10
In reply to Extreme Honesty -- really long, posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 20:47:07
I don't think there's any such thing as too extreme honesty when you have a well established relationship with a therapist. I don't think that there is anything you could say to your therapist that would be too much for your relationship to hold. I'm not actually enormously fond of my therapist's oft repeated statement "I didn't run screaming out of the room" although it's become an inside joke, and therefore valuable to me. But it does represent something. I've given him the ugliest, the neediest, the most Dinah's motherish of my thoughts, feelings & behaviors, and it didn't affect the underlying relationship. I think you have the same type of relationship.
Yet still I test and push, because it doesn't seem like this could be true.
As far as suicide is concerned. My therapist has said that he'll care if I'm gone. He's said it softly, he's said it angrily. But the one time that got to my gut was when he said nothing, but winced. That's the time I promised to let him try to help me first, for as long as he's my therapist.
Of course your therapist cares! He cares about you, Daisy. He's invested a lot into you, and you know what they say about where you invest, that's where your heart is. How could he not care? About you, Daisy, not client 463 and not his professional reputation.
Although I've never talked to my therapist about sexual dreams in which he had a part, because I don't think of him that way, we did discuss it in terms of posts. I'm sure it occurred to him that I may be, in a veiled way, talking about him and his answer probably kept that in mind, but he conveyed more or less the same thing your therapist did.
The other day, I told him that I got upset sometimes when he talks about his family in terms of his future, because to me *he* is my family. I reminded him of how I used to call him during the evacuation with any bits of information I thought he might find useful because I learned he wasn't listening to WWL radio, and told him that wasn't *entirely* to have a reason to talk to him. It's because I saw him as much of my family as anyone else. And I told him how ashamed I was of feeling that way, and how intrusive of me it felt, and how I never ever wanted to tell him. And he said that he was really touched to be thought of that way, and how could he possibly be upset?
I confess that there may have been some fallout, in that he seems reluctant to mention his family now, and I think he misunderstood the context of my being hurt when he talked about his family. It wasn't *all* the time. I'm not jealous of them or anything like that, and I don't get in a tizzy if he mentions them. This was a particular type of mention. Something about priorities or something that rather clearly excluded me... Which is right and fitting and I shouldn't have been upset. Drat. I'm doing it again.
It's very hard to do what we do as long term therapy clients, Daisy. Very hard. But part of what's hard is that extreme honesty that we really should give. Your therapist can take it. Heck, even my therapist can take it, and my therapist is not your therapist. :)
Posted by Fallsfall on May 4, 2007, at 12:26:49
In reply to Extreme Honesty -- really long, posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 20:47:07
>>So I'm sitting here thinking about this whole week and I find I'm actually trembling. Do you think this was too much honesty? Would your therapist freak out about all this? I'm terrified that on Monday he will have had time to reflect and decide I'm way too much now. And yet I believe him, when he says he isn't mad or upset with me.
Daisy,
Honesty is wonderful in therapy. But honesty has not been allowed in your relationships in the past (and even in the present), so it is hard for you to believe that it is OK. It IS OK with him (and with us) for you to be honest.
I am so proud of your understanding that he isn't mad or upset. This is great progress. A year ago you would have been sure that the was lying to you about that.
You are not too much for him. He likes working with you. Please try to believe this. And do check in with him this weekend so that you can hear him say it over and over.
Extreme honesty is a good thing. You are doing great.
Please don't be a stranger this weekend! I care.
Love,
Falls
Posted by canadagirl on May 4, 2007, at 18:30:54
In reply to Extreme Honesty -- really long, posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 20:47:07
I did read your post now on another computer. Mine blocks things so my kids are safe surfing. Daisy, from what I read here your Therapist loves you and cares about you. The world would truly be worse off if you weren't in it. The ripples like the rock thrown into a pond, go on for a long time.
It's hard to see sometimes, through the pain. But that's where the trust comes in. Take the leap of faith and trust what he is saying. It's a big step, but hang onto it. Because he means it.
Posted by Daisym on May 5, 2007, at 0:08:40
In reply to Re: Extreme Honesty -- really long » Daisym, posted by gazo on May 3, 2007, at 22:32:46
You are very sweet. It is funny because I said some where in all of this that what he thinks is "good" or "progress" I think of as drama. It is such hard work - it doesn't feel like progress at all.
Visible? I guess tantrums will do that for you.
Posted by Daisym on May 5, 2007, at 0:13:36
In reply to Re: Extreme Honesty -- really long, posted by muffled on May 4, 2007, at 0:05:38
Thanks for saying you'd miss me muffy. It is nice to hear.
You are doing good work and you have a good therapist. I'm glad you are letting her help you.
Posted by Daisym on May 5, 2007, at 0:17:50
In reply to Re: Extreme Honesty -- really long, posted by peddidle on May 4, 2007, at 0:32:28
Sometimes I wish my therapist had email but I would probably never tell him anything anymore, I'd just write to him. It is nice that you, and I, have therapists who allow the extra contact we need.
I've had to really work at translating my thoughts into words. Now I just have to stop editing these words so much!
Posted by Daisym on May 5, 2007, at 16:54:59
In reply to Re: Extreme Honesty -- really long (trigger?) » Daisym, posted by Dinah on May 4, 2007, at 9:29:10
>>>>>don't think there's any such thing as too extreme honesty when you have a well established relationship with a therapist. I don't think that there is anything you could say to your therapist that would be too much for your relationship to hold. I'm not actually enormously fond of my therapist's oft repeated statement "I didn't run screaming out of the room" although it's become an inside joke, and therefore valuable to me. But it does represent something. I've given him the ugliest, the neediest, the most Dinah's motherish of my thoughts, feelings & behaviors, and it didn't affect the underlying relationship. I think you have the same type of relationship.
<<<<Mine says, "proof's in the pudding. I'm still here." He has been using that term "our relationship" again a lot. Is he trying to remind me that we have one, that it isn't my imagination?>>>>Yet still I test and push, because it doesn't seem like this could be true.
<<<<<Why is this? Do we read too much? Is it being involved with Babble where we compare therapy stories that make us have to see if they will do any of the same things? I sort of understand that every time I test him and he passes, we go to a deeper level. But I'm frustrated with myself for "playing games" - you know?>>>>>>As far as suicide is concerned. My therapist has said that he'll care if I'm gone. He's said it softly, he's said it angrily. But the one time that got to my gut was when he said nothing, but winced. That's the time I promised to let him try to help me first, for as long as he's my therapist.
<<<<<Our conversatinos about this have ranged from "it is a sin" to simply "I'll miss you." He has tried to interpret the urge as a message, as the desire to kill the pain and as self-anger. He also just says, "I know it is hard. It sucks." He handles it much more calmly now than he did three years ago. Which isn't to say he is any less available - he just seems less freaked out by me. Is this a good thing? He tells me I have to train him around certain things - I never wanted it to be this!>>>>Of course your therapist cares! He cares about you, Daisy. He's invested a lot into you, and you know what they say about where you invest, that's where your heart is. How could he not care? About you, Daisy, not client 463 and not his professional reputation.
<<<<<I think that is what he was trying to say on Thursday. While keeping it within the context of the theraputic relationship, he talked about seeing me 4x a week and what a hole that would leave. And how he has all these connections to other people in my life through me, like my boys. It was very touching, the things he remembers. Sometimes I forget how long we've worked together and how many hours.>>>>>>>>Although I've never talked to my therapist about sexual dreams in which he had a part, because I don't think of him that way, we did discuss it in terms of posts. I'm sure it occurred to him that I may be, in a veiled way, talking about him and his answer probably kept that in mind, but he conveyed more or less the same thing your therapist did.
<<<<<<<<Still red faced about this. I talked to him today and didn't bring it up. He asked if there were left over feelings from Thursday. When I said, "lots but I don't want to go into it" he said (again), "it is totally fine. I'm glad you find a way to tell me things, especially things that feel like 'bad' secrets. I don't want that between us." Make sense, given my history.>>>>>>>The other day, I told him that I got upset sometimes when he talks about his family in terms of his future, because to me *he* is my family. I reminded him of how I used to call him during the evacuation with any bits of information I thought he might find useful because I learned he wasn't listening to WWL radio, and told him that wasn't *entirely* to have a reason to talk to him. It's because I saw him as much of my family as anyone else. And I told him how ashamed I was of feeling that way, and how intrusive of me it felt, and how I never ever wanted to tell him. And he said that he was really touched to be thought of that way, and how could he possibly be upset?
<<<<<<I agree, Dinah. It *is* touching that you think of him that way. But have the same hesitation about revealing stuff like that because I don't want him to feel like he has to reiteriate the boundaries or the limitations or whatever. I *know* what those are! And it does feel intrusive and almost presumptuous sometimes. And yet, how else are we supposed to feel after being so intimate with someone for so long?>>>>>I confess that there may have been some fallout, in that he seems reluctant to mention his family now, and I think he misunderstood the context of my being hurt when he talked about his family. It wasn't *all* the time. I'm not jealous of them or anything like that, and I don't get in a tizzy if he mentions them. This was a particular type of mention. Something about priorities or something that rather clearly excluded me... Which is right and fitting and I shouldn't have been upset. Drat. I'm doing it again.
<<<<<If I've learned nothing else, at least I can recognize that any sentence that has a "should" in it needs to be examined. Why shouldn't you be upset about not being a priority to someone you care very much about? Of course that stings - even if your recognize the truth of it or the reality that necessitates it. I would argue that you *should* be upset about it, it is the appropriate emotional response. You didn't fling yourself on the floor screaming and you don't have any expectation that he will change this particular thing. But it hurts and that is OK. Just as it is OK that he is more careful not to hurt you right now, however unintentional the original hurt was. I think this is practice for when our kids have their own lives, as it "should" be...but sometimes it still sucks.>>>>>>>It's very hard to do what we do as long term therapy clients, Daisy. Very hard. But part of what's hard is that extreme honesty that we really should give. Your therapist can take it. Heck, even my therapist can take it, and my therapist is not your therapist. :)
<<<<<<Levels of honesty came up today in the conversation. He said what you said - "long term therapy results in a knowing that allows more complex interactions. But honesty is required as we unpack things, otherwise we just keep pulling tape off the box and we never look inside. And that is frustrating for both of us and not productive." He also said something about it being so much easier to hear the truth and work with it than to expend tons of energy just to get to the truth. I said I think this was one of the first times he called me "easy." He said, "I didn't say that..."Thank you for understanding and sharing.
Posted by Daisym on May 5, 2007, at 17:09:10
In reply to Re: Extreme Honesty -- really long » Daisym, posted by Fallsfall on May 4, 2007, at 12:26:49
Thanks for the support Falls.
It is hard to see progress, but I'm glad you see it. I'm trying hard not to stay curled up in a corner. At least the sun is out.
Hugs,
Daisy
Posted by Honore on May 5, 2007, at 17:44:21
In reply to Extreme Honesty -- really long, posted by Daisym on May 3, 2007, at 20:47:07
I find the issue of my T;s being mad at me is one thing we've worked out a lot-- partly, or most effecively-- when he did get mad at me.
He was extremely mad at me for a long time. I can't say I'd want to go through that again-- in fact, I don't want to-- and I think what I learned from it is that he gets mad not because he doesn't care, or not in the way my parents do-- from being "fed up" and indifferent, or cold and wanting me not to exist-- but from caring too much and feeling hurt and at his wits' end about how to help, and feeling like I'm rejecting his help, which hurts a lot.
I also learned, from going through it, some of how to work with his annoyance-- and how his annoyance and his anger or rage are different-- not all one monolithic emotion that escalates without my knowing what happened. And that I can affect them-- I can do things that show him that I"m listening, that I do know that he's trying to help, that I remember that he can help, even if not right at that moment-- that I want and am looking for, and trying to get in touch with some hope about myself, even if I can't at any particular moment.
I wonder if your T is afraid to get angry at you. He's so understanding and kind-- but maybe he isn't like my T, who does get angry. But sometimes when people care, they do-- not that I'm saying your T is that kind of person.
This may be more about me, than your T and his reactions to your not coming; it might be that I'm going through this still, and the aftermath of a year of extreme situations with my T. Anger is really terrifying, but it can be much less terrifying, if you learn how to keep going, and not buckle inwardly-- can know also that the other person doesn't want to be, and wont be driven away.--if you can let them in-- That they can be-- but that they don't want to be-- that you can go to far, but you can turn away from going too far-- not because you are too scared to make the person angry-- although it is scary-- but because you don't feel so scared of it-- you don't feel as if you have to push that far, in order to make it happen now, because it will happen someday and you feel that if it will happen, you can't stand the suspense.
Sorry if I'm not making sense. This is such a big thing for me-- people's getting angry and fed up, the way people do have limits and it is possible to go too far-- but you aren't fated to, you aren't having always to be so scared of what will happen someday when you aren't looking, or aren't prepared--that that anger is inevitable, and irreversible.
Maybe it's because of Pfinstegg's post-- and the way it reminds me of some explosive times with Ts-- and how that can be horribly devastating-- but that even t hough I feel I've come close with my T now to having everything break apart, and it's been awful, I've gotten somewhere important, by going over the line (not intentionally), and finding that I could finally make contact despite that, and find my way, and his way, back.
Sorry again to be jumbled.
Honore
Posted by Daisym on May 5, 2007, at 18:27:45
In reply to Re: Extreme Honesty -- really long » Daisym, posted by Honore on May 5, 2007, at 17:44:21
Not too jumbled - I think I followed you.
There is the history part: My dad would get so angry and beat the snot out of us - and as kids, we didn't always know why. My husband would get really angry - like red in the face, screaming at me angry - and although he didn't hit, the potential was there. And in both these situations, they knew stuff about me and would shout it at me in the most humiliating way. I learned to shut it down to prevent public humiliation. So anger is super scary for me in so many ways.
My therapist has been angry at me but rarely. He gets frustrated and shows that. He has been angry FOR me. That is scary too. And in fact, he lost it once, crossed a line (verbally) that really, really scared me. I actually ended up needing to work through part of it with another trusted therapist, who then promptly sent me back to my own therapist because it was such an opportunity for me to stand up against anger. (aren't we lucky when that happens?)
So I don't think my therapist is afraid to get angry with me, it just isn't who he is as a person. He is generally a calm, kind of unflappable guy. But I'm sure he is careful. He has hurt my feelings before and that is such an awful feeling.
And the other thing your post makes me think of is that I have so much experience dealing with angry people - I don't think I'd learn much from an angry therapist. It would reinforce the idea that I bring out the worst in people and I need to manage their emotions and hide from my own. Only as there has been nothing to push against have I had to confront my own anger. I can't give it to the already angry person to hold for me. Boy, has this been hard!
Thank you for such a thoughtful reply. I hope it didn't upset you to think about.
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2007, at 22:30:04
In reply to Re: Extreme Honesty -- really long (trigger?) » Dinah, posted by Daisym on May 5, 2007, at 16:54:59
> And it does feel intrusive and almost presumptuous sometimes.
Yes it does. :( And I have a terror of that.
> If I've learned nothing else, at least I can recognize that any sentence that has a "should" in it needs to be examined. Why shouldn't you be upset about not being a priority to someone you care very much about? Of course that stings - even if your recognize the truth of it or the reality that necessitates it. I would argue that you *should* be upset about it, it is the appropriate emotional response. You didn't fling yourself on the floor screaming and you don't have any expectation that he will change this particular thing. But it hurts and that is OK. Just as it is OK that he is more careful not to hurt you right now, however unintentional the original hurt was. I think this is practice for when our kids have their own lives, as it "should" be...but sometimes it still sucks.
I really like that way of thinking about it, Daisy. Accepting the feelings as being ok. Or, in terms of what my therapist and I spent some time talking about, it's ok to want something, even if it's not something you can have.
Posted by zenhussy on May 6, 2007, at 0:51:42
In reply to Re: Extreme Honesty -- really long » Honore, posted by Daisym on May 5, 2007, at 18:27:45
phenomenal insight Daisy...some ppl never quite get around to addressing their anger. been a long time coming. lots of work yet.
"It would reinforce the idea that I bring out the worst in people and I need to manage their emotions and hide from my own. Only as there has been nothing to push against have I had to confront my own anger. I can't give it to the already angry person to hold for me. Boy, has this been hard!"
your dedication to your healing is admirable. keep faith.
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