![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 23 to 47 of 54. Go back in thread:
Posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 18:37:59
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » alexandra_k, posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 14:38:21
I wish I could find my post on "therapy is NOT an after school special." I get so frustrated when things are portrayed as "Tell - cry - forgive - all better." Yeah - we wish.
But I think telling is an important part of the process for some of us. It is partly reclaiming your right to say "no" and partly a shuffling of lenses that we look at our history with. For example, telling about the abuse for me has felt (and feels) like a huge betrayal of my dad and my family. After all - weren't there times when my dad was nice? I know he loved me -- he bought me stuff and made me feel special. I literally thought of my dad as two people - good dad and bad dad. Last week it dawned on me that the gifts and special treatment were partially ways to keep me quiet and to keep me tied to him. I was devasted and very, very angry at my therapist. "I hate therapy - I lose more and more of the good dad everytime we talk about something." And yet, whose truth is it? Mine - obviously. And he didn't reframe anything I said -- I did it myself. But I think my brain has had enough of the conflict and I'm beginning to think that I didn't deserve the abuse, and in order to fully believe that, I need to view my guilt with a different lense.
Does that make any sense? I'm not going back to being a victim, I'm actually using the truth to lay the blame on the correct doorstep.
But, wow, is it painful. I'm glad I have someone to help me and declare "enough for now." I'm glad you have someone to help you too.
Posted by annierose on September 17, 2006, at 19:25:57
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 18:37:59
That sounds like a painful but important step! Your work is so courageous (I know, I know, I keep saying that). A lot of us in therapy are facing some truths that are scary when the lights are shined on them. Unlike a haunted house that looks just dingy and dusty in daylight but scary at night.
>>>I lose more and more of the good dad everytime we talk about something." And yet, whose truth is it? Mine - obviously. And he didn't reframe anything I said -- I did it myself.<<<<
I know this feeling exactly, except the light is shining on my husband.
Posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 19:27:56
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 18:37:59
Hi Daisy,
I think I gave up my "good dad" a long time ago. My dad is no longer my dad. He is someone else. He has had some brain damage that has removed big chunks of his memory. His personality changes completely every now and then. Right now he's in the "grumpy old man" phase. He is contrary to everything. He's mean and cruel, and it's easy for us to see him as bad dad, because we can blame it on his brain damage. I wish he had died. I hope he dies soon. I wish my brother had died back then too. Now he has a lovely family, but I see him as the old guy- only wearing a very durable mask. My husband has seen the mask crack though. My husband is scared for brother's wife and kids. Does she know his monsters? Does she really think that they are under control? I've decided that I may have never loved my dad. I decided that a while ago, I just didn't know why. It hurts-- knowing that a parent has lost the innocent love that children bestow so naturally. That he doesn't even deserve to live, in my opinion, well. I think he's had his tenure on this earth. He's done a lot of good things, even for me. So have many other people, but I don't love my first grade teacher, who taught me to love reading. I don't love my quartet coach, who gave me and three dear friends two years of his teaching and caring. I'm not sure that my dad has really done that much more for me than the gift of anxiety. Maybe I *should* have run away to grandma and grandpas.-ll
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 18, 2006, at 23:06:21
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » Daisym, posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 19:27:56
I'm going to see T tomorrow. Husband thinks I can make it through this. So do I. I bought a book on trauma. I'm really really appalled. I have been so blind, for so long. My eyes are blinded from the bright light, all of a sudden. I cannot believe that all my esoteric knowledge of memory and such may have only served to help me make a barrier between "those people" and myself. The enlightened one. Ouch. This light is glaring. My ignorance and arrogance are appalling. I'm such a fraud.
-Li (also the chemical symbol for Lithium, interestingly...)
Posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2006, at 9:19:29
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 18:37:59
> I'm beginning to think that I didn't deserve the abuse, and in order to fully believe that, I need to view my guilt with a different lense.
> Does that make any sense? I'm not going back to being a victim, I'm actually using the truth to lay the blame on the correct doorstep.
Yeah. I understand.
A way of alleviating guilt. Guilt and shame and embarrasment and maybe rage... Horrible feelings like that.
Is it possible... I just want to put this out there for your consideration... But is it possible... That blame is besides the point?
Posted by daisym on September 20, 2006, at 19:40:01
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » Daisym, posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2006, at 9:19:29
That's a hard question because there is no real point here at all - I can't make him say he is sorry, or hold him accountable for screwing up so many things in my life.
But I can try to help myself see that the future can be different, because the common denominator of me =bad might be a faulty premise. And if the equation is faulty, then the outcome (that life will always be hard for me) might be wrong. So I need to "blame" the right person, because so far I blame myself. I need a different word - not blame, not fault, what? HIS sin, not mine?
But you are right. Blame is irrelevent in some ways, as is forgiveness. I believe that a higher power than I is the only place that forgiveness can really be given.
My therapist and I talked today about worthiness. Underneath everything, I feel worthless, not worthy of someone's caring, time or attention. Especially not someone that I care about. He kept trying to get me to define worthiness or worthlessness -- to explain why I was worthless. I finally settled on the word defective instead of worthless.
He looked so sad - but it is the truth. And I just don't know how to change it. I just know how to cover it over and hide the defect.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2006, at 20:23:27
In reply to Blame » alexandra_k, posted by daisym on September 20, 2006, at 19:40:01
((((Daisy))))
It is a hard thing :-(
I mean a really very hard thing indeed.> That's a hard question because there is no real point here at all - I can't make him say he is sorry, or hold him accountable for screwing up so many things in my life.
And even if he did say sorry it wouldn't undo anything. Even if he was held accountable it wouldn't undo anything.
> I can try to help myself see that the future can be differentYou aren't to blame. I hope you come to really see that. Not just intellectually, I really hope that you really come to see that.
> So I need to "blame" the right person, because so far I blame myself.
Maybe... Nobody is to blame. Maybe blame is besides the point in the sense that nobody is to blame. Maybe it isn't about putting the blame where it is due so much as it is about lifting the blame all around.
> I need a different word - not blame, not fault, what? HIS sin, not mine?
So somebody needs to take the blame?
Why can't the notion of blame, sin, whatever... Just be lifted? I guess it is hard when our hurts result from the actions of another. The ancients used to rail at volcanos and the like for erupting and causing devistation. I think people are more like volcanos mostly... What he did... Hurt you very much indeed :-( But I don't really understand what the notion of blame is doing except for resulting in you having contradictory feelings about loving and hating your Father. Seems to me that you can love him while still maintaining that his behaviour was very destructive for you at times, however.> But you are right. Blame is irrelevent in some ways, as is forgiveness. I believe that a higher power than I is the only place that forgiveness can really be given.
Maybe... Forgiveness is besides the point too. What is forgiveness anyway? If blame is lifted (from everyone) then what need to forgive? What could forgiveness mean?
> My therapist and I talked today about worthiness. Underneath everything, I feel worthless, not worthy of someone's caring, time or attention.And that was a consequence of what happened. That it left you feeling like that :-(
But of course that doesn't mean that was what your Father *intended* to happen.
That doesn't mean he thought that was *likely* to happen.
Maybe... He loved you the best way he knew how. Which is sad for him that he couldn't express care in a way that was more likely to leave you feeling cared about. Which is horrible for you in that you are left feeling like you are defective and incapable of being cared about.
Or maybe... He was so caught up in his own needs that he didn't see yours. Which can be hard... I am self absorbed at times :-( I understand that one too :-(
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 20, 2006, at 21:18:15
In reply to Re: Blame, posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2006, at 20:23:27
I don't blame. Okay-- I blame Grandad, but he's long gone. Just because I don't blame my father though, doesn't mean that I cannot be angry with him for taking away some innocence of mine. I can still be angry without blame.
I guess the problem with blame is that it sets up some kind of cause-effect relationship that is very difficult to prove or even infer. It also sets up a dichotomy of the "guilty" and the "innocent" that is clearly delineated by a law. Sometimes there is not enough proof to demonstrate that a law was broken. Sometimes the laws we have aren't sufficient to explain the hurt we feel.
Anger & Hurt: these are more productive emotions than shame or guilt or blame. We do not have to sacrifice the good parts of our selves in order to feel angry or hurt. But in order to feel shame or to blame someone- we must necessarily admit that their action has changed us for the worse. I'm not sure that that admission is necessart or desirable.
Posted by Daisym on September 21, 2006, at 1:41:25
In reply to Re: Blame, posted by Lindenblüte on September 20, 2006, at 21:18:15
Anger & Hurt: these are more productive emotions than shame or guilt or blame. We do not have to sacrifice the good parts of our selves in order to feel angry or hurt. But in order to feel shame or to blame someone- we must necessarily admit that their action has changed us for the worse. I'm not sure that that admission is necessart or desirable.
****But then, to follow your line of thinking, aren't we sacrificing the truth? His action did change me for the worse. And yes, I'm mad as he!! about that. But I'm also deeply ashamed of these secrets - for my part in them and for him too. I'm holding all the emotions for both of us. (Talk about introjection!)So if no one is to blame, how do I organize my thoughts around it? My father sexually abused me - a whole range of abuse -- and he was violent at times and scary -- since I was 5 until I was 12. Then he left me and I didn't see or hear from him for years. If he isn't to "blame" what do I say -- he had his reasons? Or he couldn't help it? How do I describe his behavior?
Posted by muffled on September 21, 2006, at 5:07:35
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » Lindenblüte, posted by Daisym on September 21, 2006, at 1:41:25
blame, shame, disgrace, ignomony, anger, rage, confusion, despair.......
Mere words.
That cannot ever convey true meaning. Not really.
Cuz how can you ever possibly convey such meaning REALLY.
You can't.
Its not possible.
There is such a huge network of interconnecting feelings and sensations, and lack thereof, and thots and realitys and unrealitys and truths and untruths, sanity, and insanity, and I could go on and on and on and on.
But there ARE NO WORDS.
Words can never say.
There is no sense or logic.
There is no reasoning.
Mebbe thats where at some point we have to trust somebody.
Trust.
How can there be trust.
How could such a miracle occur.
But if we trust someone to tell us the basic truths as best they can.
Keep it simple if not understandable.
If we can just know.
That we are who we are.
Moulded by lifes events.
That we as children did the best we knew how in our fear and aloness, and confusion.
That we didn't try and hurt out of viciousness.
That we knew so little of what should and shouldn't be.
That we were/are JUST kids.
I walk in the school.
I look at the children.
They know so little.
They try so hard.
What do they want?
They want to be valued, accepted.
They wanto feel safe and at peace.
I look at the child with shadows...
Do I feel revulsion?
NO.
Compassion.
For she is but a child.
I don't know what I trying to say.
Trying for words.
Where there are none.
Sorry.
((((((((((((((((Daisy))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((Linden))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((Kids))))))))))))))))
Posted by muffled on September 21, 2006, at 5:12:45
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger, posted by muffled on September 21, 2006, at 5:07:35
((((((((((((((((Daisy))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((Linden))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((Kids))))))))))))))))Sometimes...
nevermind.
Sometimes there just are no words.
I sit beside you.
Silent.
Loving.
Cuz you got value.
You just do.
Muffled.
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 21, 2006, at 8:09:16
In reply to Sorry,ignore above except...., posted by muffled on September 21, 2006, at 5:12:45
Muffled. I did not ignore the above. It was from your heart, and it was meaningful to me (and you too?). It's okay if it seems disorganized. That's the nature of the feelings/memories. Thanks for your words. Even when there are none. At least there's not a vacuum.
And for your hugs.
that was so beautiful. you made me cry a little.
I'm sitting next to you too. okay? (((Mufflie))) and (((Daisy))) and ((((Alex)))) and... ((((PBabblers))))... and all the others that know, or maybe don't know yet. Or know and have forgotten. Or they know but don't think it's wrong (yet?).
We can just sit on a park bench together, and pretend to be strangers, or not? We'll just be our witnesses.
hugs to kids. past and present.
and to worth, 'cause we just ARE.
We made it this far.
-L
Posted by antigua on September 21, 2006, at 8:49:54
In reply to Blame » alexandra_k, posted by daisym on September 20, 2006, at 19:40:01
I understand that sense of worthlessness. For me, it underlied everything. Let me see if I can explain. I constructed an elaborate set of beliefs about myself based on the abuse--that I was pretty, special, etc.--that helped me survive. Facing the abuse now, and attempting to face what kind of father he was, I felt that everything I believed about myself started to crumble. Because I wasn't special or pretty if he rejected me when he left me. There was nothing to hold me up; I felt the bottom had dropped out. If I wasn't those things that I identified with my father, what was I? Everything I believed about myself was wrong, and I was totally worthless. For me the word was also "hopeless". There was no hope left.
But what I've discovered (and it happened through hypnosis, although it was always there, I just didn't know) was that I don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water. I WAS pretty; furthermore, I was strong, competent etc., all those strengths that I had to develop to cope with the abuse.I guess what I am trying to say is when I hit bottom and felt so hopeless and helpless, I felt there was no core self to me. But I've discovered that there is. By identifying with the weak child I had thought I had nothing without him and his love. But I do. I see that now. I was definitely wrong about somethings (and I felt that if I was wrong about him being the loving father than I MUST be wrong about everything--again, I had no self).
But I see now that some of my core beliefs were defintely wrong, and I understand that I developed them to cope, but the basic essence of me is there, and it's pretty darned good is what I've decided. Many of the skills/strengths I developed to cope were good. It doesn't have to be a black and white question anymore for me. I see that now. Before, I only saw that if I was wrong about him, I was wrong about everything, which meant that I was hopeless.
I know I'm babbling, but wanted to talk.
best,
antigua
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 21, 2006, at 8:56:57
In reply to Re: Blame » daisym, posted by antigua on September 21, 2006, at 8:49:54
I'm scared.
I know what my coping mechanisms are/were. They feel like my entire personality.
I told my T- I'm so happy I don't have to be an actress anymore. BUT. If I'm not going to be an actress, who am I?
T said that the way I interact with him is almost always on an intellectual level. That's because that's what's SAFE for me. (Emotions and such: that stuff isn't safe.)
If I'm going to go deeper than just intellectual exploration of my psychology-- Well? What if I find out there's nothing "inside" me?
(troubled)
-Li
Posted by sunnydays on September 21, 2006, at 9:22:20
In reply to Re: Blame » antigua, posted by Lindenblüte on September 21, 2006, at 8:56:57
That worried me sooo much when I started therapy. My T just about fell out of his chair one day when I said, "You know, the problem is I don't really know who I AM anymore. I'm good at school, and things like that, but I don't know who I AM." Before that I would dance away from any emotions (and I still do a lot of the time), but when I admitted that I just felt empty, that's when I started realizing that wasn't so true after all. There are plenty of things inside you, Linden, you just haven't been paying attention to them. Once you do, you'll probably be really surprised like I was. Good luck. It is soooo hard to start feeling emotions when you haven't allowed them before.
sunnydays
Posted by Jost on September 21, 2006, at 11:26:25
In reply to Blame » alexandra_k, posted by daisym on September 20, 2006, at 19:40:01
Blaming someone is a stage-- an important stage, I think, even if it has its limits, its own type of damage.
I spent a lot of time caught up in destructive and intense relationships with both my parents. They were the only people who were real to me. And they and I were fundamentally such different people, with such different emotional needs, awarenesses, and temperaments-- we were always deeply in conflict.
I wanted a kind of warmth and recognition of --and support for-- my aspirations and my ways of looking at, understanding, working through things-- that they couldn't give me.
and they needed a daughter who was more like they were. I don't know who that was, but not me.
So yes, I spent years being angry and hurt and blaming myself, and blaming them-- and wishing and hoping that the next time would be different-- if I did something different, if I explained something better, if I were better. It never was.
I don't think you can help blaming yourself and blaming people who hurt you so much-- whether they "meant" to-- or, even if they meant to, if they really couldn't help it. They did it, and they didn't listen, they didn't try to change.
But then, eventually, I found that blaming them didn't matter any more. I don't know why. Partly I saw that they couldn't help it. Partly, I saw that there were better things somewhere else-- which was against their philosophy, too-- and that I could find people who did understand, and did care in a way that felt much better, that mattered.
So I think it's finding something better that allows you to let go-- let go of all these tangled emotions that muffled talked about-- it's not that you forgive (although you can do that, too)-- it's that you slowly let go, and it moves away from you, into the past, where it's more veiled, distant, less and less important, less and less what's real.
What's real is the better things, feelings, ways of being that you discover.
At least that's what I've found.
Jost
Posted by alexandra_k on September 21, 2006, at 18:07:22
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » Lindenblüte, posted by Daisym on September 21, 2006, at 1:41:25
> So if no one is to blame, how do I organize my thoughts around it? My father sexually abused me - a whole range of abuse -- and he was violent at times and scary -- since I was 5 until I was 12. Then he left me and I didn't see or hear from him for years.
> If he isn't to "blame" what do I say -- he had his reasons? Or he couldn't help it? How do I describe his behavior?
You just did describe his behaviour. Descriptions... Don't have judgements in them. They can be neutral and objective.
You can plug in how you felt in response to the various things he did too. Therapy can help you see that your feelings are a pretty normal / natural response to those kinds of behaviours.
Is there an answer to the question 'why did he do those things'? I'm not sure that there is really. I know that often in my own case I 'make up' (confabulate) stories around my intentions. Sometimes I have no idea. Sometimes I think the 'why's' are a call for you to justify yourself and come up with a rationale. If you were to explain the way things 'really' are (which is about impossible in hindsight anyway) well... Have you read "The Stranger"?
You have nice memories too - don't you?
How do people see natural disaster?
Of course it is understandable to feel mad.
Lifting blame is a choice. It is a volountary action. I learned about it in DBT.
I guess I'm seeing it like this:
Thesis: Its my fault, I'm to blame.
Antithesis: Its his fault, he's to blame.And back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and how to get off?
Transcendence: Blame is besides the point. Lift the blame.
That doesn't mean you aren't allowed to / can't feel angry. When you feel angry don't blame yourself for feeling angry. It is a consequence of what happened. It is an understandable consequence of what happened.
But you can feel angry without blame...
Like if a volcano erupts causing mass destruction...
You can be understandably sad and mad and hurt and vulnerable and scared...
And it doesn't have to be anybodies fault.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 21, 2006, at 18:08:50
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger, posted by alexandra_k on September 21, 2006, at 18:07:22
Posted by Daisym on September 22, 2006, at 0:59:07
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger, posted by alexandra_k on September 21, 2006, at 18:07:22
The basic fault in the "no blame" line of reasoning is that abuse is equal to a natural disaster. Almost as if, it was inevitable or unstoppable...God's will. By removing blame, it feels (just from where I sit)like "he couldn't help it" -- or something like that. I'm struggling to find the words to explain what I mean -- this isn't something that just "happened." He DID this -- and my reactions, normal or not, don't change that he DID this. He wasn't mentally incapacitated, he wasn't forced by anyone or anything...and it wasn't an accident. So perhaps...perhaps...another world, like accountable? But doesn't convey the negativity I want to convey about his choices.
There is no way to nuetralize these acts. They were horrible and terrifying. They should be remembered as such so that our collective outrage prevents this kind of abuse from continuing.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 22, 2006, at 2:13:48
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » alexandra_k, posted by Daisym on September 22, 2006, at 0:59:07
You can't change what happened in the past.
Choosing not to blame a volcano doesn't mean that you think it was okay that lots of people died or that you think it is a good thing that lots of people died.
Similarly,
Choosing to lift blame doesn't mean that you condone his behaviour or that you think his behaviour was a good thing.
Choosing not to blame a volcano doesn't mean that you wouldn't intervene to prevent future eruptions if it was within your power to do so.
Similarly,
Choosing not to blame doesn't mean that you wouldn't intervene to prevent those kinds of behaviours being done to others if it was in your power to do so.> There is no way to nuetralize these acts. They were horrible and terrifying. They should be remembered as such so that our collective outrage prevents this kind of abuse from continuing.
Hacking says that whether we consider certain behaviours to be 'abuse' or not is a function of political agenda. To categorise certain acts as acts of 'abuse' has become societies way of expressing collective outrage.
Is collective outrage required in order for intervention to be likely?
Are people collectively outraged about volcanoes exploding?
Is that why people try and figure out volcanoes and the like so as to interveane?
I don't think so...But that being said the likely effects of the kind of behaviour your Father showed towards you... Are very likely indeed to have you feeling hurt and confused and scared and outraged and terrified and all kinds of very intense horrible feelings like that. It is understandable that you would feel those things. Sometimes... I think we do need to feel those feelings... But I don't think blame helps those feelings I think blame is more likely to intensify them. The feelings are horrible enough without being intensified...
Does your outrage help you or harm you?
The notion of lifting the blame is that it can be the way out of this cycle:
Thesis: Its my fault, I'm to blame.
Antithesis: Its his fault, he's to blame.With the thesis you feel horrible about yourself. With the antithesis you feel horrible about your Father. But you love your father too... Hence you find yourself swinging back to the thesis... And round and round it goes...
I just offered it for your contemplation as a possible way out of the cycle...
Posted by sunnydays on September 22, 2006, at 7:36:35
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » Daisym, posted by alexandra_k on September 22, 2006, at 2:13:48
But people aren't collectively outraged about volcanos exploding because there would be nothing we could do to stop them if we wanted to. I think that it is very true that blame is necessary. Now, it may only be necessary as a stage, and later we learn to lift it, but the two choices for me right now are to blame my brother or to internalize the negative feelings so that I feel bad about myself. I need to go through a period of blaming my brother in order to get the negative feelings out and feel what it is like to not hate myself. I don't think there is another way to get those negative feelings out of myself, at least my therapist doesn't seem to think so. But I don't know if later I will stop blaming or not.
sunnydays
Posted by alexandra_k on September 22, 2006, at 8:13:58
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » alexandra_k, posted by sunnydays on September 22, 2006, at 7:36:35
> But people aren't collectively outraged about volcanos exploding because there would be nothing we could do to stop them if we wanted to.
Ya. Volcanoes are a hard one. But I figure there are people studying volcanoes trying to learn how to better predict their behaviour so they can give advanced warnings to prevent people being hurt by them and stuff. I'm just saying that I'm not sure that collective outrage is necessary for people to work to interveane. And so I'm wondering... What collective outrage is really doing...
(Trying to raise public consciousness Hacking says.)
> the two choices for me right now are to blame my brother or to internalize the negative feelings so that I feel bad about myself.
Why are they your only choices? Why can't you just say that your brother did x and a result of that is that you feel... Whatever negative feelings you feel. I don't understand why failure to blame your brother necessitates you blaming yourself? I don't understand what work blame is supposed to do...
> I need to go through a period of blaming my brother in order to get the negative feelings out and feel what it is like to not hate myself.
Why can't you work on accepting your negative feelings as understandable responses to what happened? I don't see why or how blaming your brother helps...
> I don't think there is another way to get those negative feelings out of myself
Why can't you work on accepting them as feelings that you are having. We don't choose our feelings... They just are.
> at least my therapist doesn't seem to think so.
Hmm...
> But I don't know if later I will stop blaming or not.
It is your choice.
Posted by daisym on September 22, 2006, at 13:11:03
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » sunnydays, posted by alexandra_k on September 22, 2006, at 8:13:58
Maybe the difference comes down to the fact that a Volcano can not form a concept of right nor wrong - and has no conscious choice about erupting or not. HUMANS do. They make choices and this choice involved domination of someone else.
As far as social consciousness, I guess we could argue whether there are universal rights or wrongs. I know that sex with young girls is the accepted norm in some cultures. But since it isn't the norm in my culture, it carries with it shame and a whole bunch of other negative crap, both external and internal. And I'd like to think that we could universally agree that one person hurting another person for personal gratification not linked to survival, would be classified as "wrong."
btw - this debate is making me think a lot. I hope I'm not coming off as hostile or angry.
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 22, 2006, at 14:21:12
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » alexandra_k, posted by daisym on September 22, 2006, at 13:11:03
> btw - this debate is making me think a lot. I hope I'm not coming off as hostile or angry.
personally, I haven't read the last 6-7 posts except to skim for references to me personally. I'm not ready to read them. too raw.
I very much doubt that any participant in this thread is anywhere close to being uncivil or hostile or angry (at the other posters) but you could always get a civility buddy, if you're worried.
(((Daisym)))
-Li
Posted by alexandra_k on September 22, 2006, at 18:04:53
In reply to Re: Blame - Trigger » alexandra_k, posted by daisym on September 22, 2006, at 13:11:03
> Maybe the difference comes down to the fact that a Volcano can not form a concept of right nor wrong - and has no conscious choice about erupting or not. HUMANS do. They make choices and this choice involved domination of someone else.
I guess it comes back to my world view of determinism... If I had your fathers body and his genes... I'd have been along for his ride thinking his thoughts and feeling his feeling and doing the things he did. I don't choose my thoughts or feelings they just occur to me. I know for a fact I've done many things I regret (for the effect they had on others) I've forgotten many other things I've done 'cause I can't face up to the effects they had on others.
Part of you loves him...
And part of you hurts so much in response to some of the things he did.
And it isn't that there was anything wrong with you because those kind of behaviours would result in most people responding the way you are.I wonder what happened to him when he was a kid.
Was he sexually abused? Physically? You know that people who abuse others were typically abused themselves, don't you?I guess that if you believe in God and you believe that people have immaterial souls that reside in their body some how and you believe in libertarian free will (where a free choice has to be miraculously one that is caused by me and one that is uncaused hence free both at the same time...) then that complicates matters.
> As far as social consciousness, I guess we could argue whether there are universal rights or wrongs. I know that sex with young girls is the accepted norm in some cultures. But since it isn't the norm in my culture, it carries with it shame and a whole bunch of other negative crap, both external and internal. And I'd like to think that we could universally agree that one person hurting another person for personal gratification not linked to survival, would be classified as "wrong."What he did hurt you.
Very much. Very much indeed.
What more needs to be said?
I don't understand...
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