![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Pfinstegg on February 23, 2006, at 19:34:31
For about the first two years of analysis, the sessions were either about what I was thinking or feeling at the moment (which sometimes took 20 minutes to say), or about all the things going on between my analyst and me- an absolute minefield of anxiety!. We know so much of this so well by now, and the dread and anxiety surrounding much of it all has diminished. So my analyst began asking more about each ego-state's knowledge of the other ego-states. I didn't realize that they weren't very aware of one another- and didn't want to know, either. There's just one present at a given moment. But he persisted, and we have gradually developed "family meetings". All the parts get to say what they think, feel and know, and then he inquires what the other parts think about it. Before a session ends, he asks each one to say what it would like to have happen- just to imagine it with him, and to make sure all the parts know what each one wishes. I am supposed to respect each one- no matter what. Then he might say, "OK, they are here- now we can all sit back as if we were watching a movie, and see what happens to everyone. It is always so good- and so comforting; of course, he becomes the central member of the family, and so all the parts have wonderful interactons with him in the scenarios.
We never did anything like this until reently; I guess we had to bring the parts up from under all my fear and repression. And I know it sounds kind of silly. But it isn't; it's extremely helpful! I'm starting to do it automatically, on my own, when I become anxious or depressed. It works every time if I'm willing to put in the time and listen to the painful things the parts have to say.
Posted by Dinah on February 23, 2006, at 20:04:57
In reply to moving more deeply into ego state therapy..., posted by Pfinstegg on February 23, 2006, at 19:34:31
It sounds like a natural progression, Pfinstegg. I'm really glad that your therapist is comfortable with what is helpful for you.
It doesn't sound at all silly to me.
Posted by Pfinstegg on February 23, 2006, at 20:09:58
In reply to moving more deeply into ego state therapy..., posted by Pfinstegg on February 23, 2006, at 19:34:31
I guess I wasn't too clear about one thing- we spent those first two years, not so much discovering previously unconscious memories of trauma, as lifting the denial and repression, so that I could FEEL fully just how awful it all was. Once we got that far, we could get the parts talking to one another. But we are still doing everything at once- getting in touch with the feelings, dealing with tremendously intense transference issues, and encouraging the parts to work together. I feel so lucky to have stumbled onto a therapist who knows how to do all these things..
Posted by Pfinstegg on February 23, 2006, at 20:17:33
In reply to Re: moving more deeply into ego state therapy... » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on February 23, 2006, at 20:04:57
Thank you, Dinah. Your understanding and support mean a lot to me. I'm so glad it doesn't appear silly!
Posted by Daisym on February 23, 2006, at 20:52:46
In reply to moving more deeply into ego state therapy..., posted by Pfinstegg on February 23, 2006, at 19:34:31
Doesn't sound silly at all to me either. I'm trying to imagine a family meeting and I think it might be too hostile still for me. There is an internal debate raging about which age "had it worse" -- and how each age wants to express things. And there is so much fear right now...that cold kind that fills you up and creeps down your neck along the hairline. Today my therapist asked if I could feel little daisy and would she like to talk directly to him. I said yes but I didn't know how to get out of the way and let her. It was too scary. So slowly he drew her out, and I sort of watched and interfered sometimes. So I'm incredibly impressed that you can get your "team" to cooperate. Not agree necessarily, but to be able to hear and accept each other is amazing. I can just picture your therapist talking to each one in turn.
Do you identify the age now, or can he pretty much tell? I've noticed that if a younger part of me sort of escapes and starts ranting or something, my therapist picks up on it and switches to a very open, protective stance.
I'm glad you are making so much progress. It is very painful and hard and I, too, am glad you found someone who works so well with you. I've been meaning to ask this for awhile, do you think there are different types of transference going on for different age states?
Posted by Pfinstegg on February 23, 2006, at 22:53:12
In reply to Re: moving more deeply into ego state therapy... » Pfinstegg, posted by Daisym on February 23, 2006, at 20:52:46
Everything you are saying sounds exactly like what's going on with me! The parts do fight over who "had it worse", although , from the "meetings" , we are generally agreeing that it's the six-year-old. She is by far the most cynical and silent, and doesn't really know who my analyst is-she thinks he's her father, and says she would rather that he hated her- than rape her. So she has a long way to go, still. The others relate better to him- the infant, the three-year old, the teenager. He generally knows who's who, by voice and words, but often asks. He places a big emphasis now on the parts getting to know one another, whereas before, it was more about knowing him. The baby has a longing to be held, the three-year old wants to flirt, the teenager hopes he'll find her attractive, but the 6-year old is sadly, very hostile and detached. But, secretly, she appreciates his warmth and careful handling of her- she just doesn't say so- she's so angry. It's with her and him that there are incredibly stressful transference- and countertransference pressures. At times, my wonderful analyst, who always kept his cool, has felt mistreated and has retaliatede with little hurtful comments. We are getting this figured out now, however- thank goodness
Posted by Daisym on February 24, 2006, at 0:34:40
In reply to Re: moving more deeply into ego state therapy... » Daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on February 23, 2006, at 22:53:12
Thank you for sharing that. I know how hard it must have been to type "retailiated" and how hurtful it is to feel and hear those comments. I think we are so protective of our therapists that it is hard to admit that they have these countertransference issues. At least for me it is. And while I totally understand that mine is human, it is beyond crushing when he responds to the longings by pushing back, or gives into the pleading for rescue by being directive or confrontational. It has only happened a few times, and each time he has not only owned it but shared how upset he was to recognize it in himself. He told me that he worried at one point he had "blown my trust" and I would leave therapy, while simultaneously knowing our relationship was strong enough to withstand the storm. And he is honest about how I hurt him too.
But boy, the younger parts go nuts when this happens. The 4 year old is terrified and wants to cling to his leg. The nine year old part simply mad, saying "I knew it! I knew we were too much for him." The 12 year old was really upset to have hurt him, she tries so hard to be perfect. So I pull back, he reaches out and we talk and talk and talk about it.
I gave him a bookmark a few weeks ago that had the word Faith on it in Chinese characters. Because sometimes that is all we have. He has faith in the process and I have faith in him.
Posted by Tamar on February 24, 2006, at 7:12:43
In reply to moving more deeply into ego state therapy..., posted by Pfinstegg on February 23, 2006, at 19:34:31
Your analyst sounds wonderful. I like the idea of bringing your parts together. Mine know about each other but don't really communicate. I think you're right; consulting them all when you're feeling anxious or depressed sounds like a good idea.
Posted by Pfinstegg on February 25, 2006, at 10:55:19
In reply to Re: moving more deeply into ego state therapy... » Pfinstegg, posted by Daisym on February 24, 2006, at 0:34:40
You are so understanding, Daisy. The grown-up me seems to manage to keep some trust and hope going- most of the time- when these transference-countertransference things arise- what he calls "enactments", but you are right- the younger parts are panic-stricken and think the analysis is "over". Two years ago, I wouldn't have felt their pain and terror as strongly as I do now. But, at least, I know better who is feeling that way- and why.
From what I've read, and feel, this is the time in therapy when there are the most intense pressures on the therapist, and when he is most likely to have a strong counter-transference- not always positive, because of all the pain involved. Some are conscious- and some aren't. Different parts of us just want to invade him with our pain and suffering, not to retaliate, but just to make sure he KNOWS.
You T. is exceptionally good at tolerating this, and getting back to a state of connected, empathic listening. Mine is very aware of all this, and good at it too, but sometimes it takes him a little longer. That may not be all bad, as it makes me take a long, hard look at what is happening inside me. And then we do get back to a strong connection, and can sometimes include the parts better. It's the hardest thing i have ever tried to do- except, I have to remember, it was just as hard when it happened to the young parts, when they were so small, innocent and helpless. It reminds me that I have to have empathy for them, just as he does.
Yes, it was embarrassing to mispell "retailiate". I was the girl who always won spelling bees, and I try not to mispell here- that word was so loaded that I didn't even notice!
I love your giving your T. a bookmark with the Chinese characters for trust on it. I do think that, as all of our part are more able to trust, that healing lies there. You obviously thought so, too. And your T. has shown, over and over, that he thinks that way, too.
Posted by Daisym on February 25, 2006, at 18:16:49
In reply to Re: moving more deeply into ego state therapy... » Daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on February 25, 2006, at 10:55:19
You give me too much credit...I guess it is a loaded word for me too. I didn't notice it was misspelled, I was just relating to how hard it is to admit our beloved therapists might have even a ghost of these types of feelings. I can't spell AT ALL, spell check is my best friend. :)
I'm having a hard time right now getting out of my own way and letting the younger parts talk directly. It is too scary but I'm not sure why. I want to run from the whole thing again. We talked about a support group recently and I might try it. That might ease up some of the pressure on him. I'm terrified though. *sigh*
Posted by Pfinstegg on February 25, 2006, at 23:33:38
In reply to Re: moving more deeply into ego state therapy... » Pfinstegg, posted by Daisym on February 25, 2006, at 18:16:49
As one of major mental health consumers here (psychoanalysis, art therapy, marriage counselling, EMDR- totally embarrassing how much!)- what about EMDR? It's quite specific and short-term, and designed for people who have had specific traumas which they can remember. I am doing it right now, and find it very helpful in uncouplinging the memories and the intense fear, shame, self-blame and depression. The thought of group therapy is a bad one for me, because I think I'd get more stressed and ashamed than ever if I had to disclose what happened to me to an entire group. I belong to a writing group run by a branch of the APsAA, which has teachers, therapists, etc, in it. We do autobiographical exercises, but when I dared to write, even in a most general way, about the csa, everyone looked appalled. Then someone said, "Why don't you stick with writing about nature, Pfinstegg?" I realize this wasn't exactly a therapy group, but, unless you are with others who really understand, it seems to be such a hard thing for people to hear about. We talk about it here, but that was the only time I did in real life (except with my husband, who knows everything)- and I don't think I ever will again.
Still, I really don't mean to be too negative, because if you were in a group just for that, it might really be helpful and supportive. The EMDR is really focussed on stress relief, and can be quite an amazing process. It does take some of the pressure off my analyst, as he works closely with the EMDR therapist, and they decide together, along with me, what traumas would be good to work on. Do you have anyone qualified in it near you? I do one or two sessions of it, then stop, and my analyst and I go along as usual until we feel that something else is coming up which would benefit from it. Only a small number of people have written about it here, but for the most part,their reports are very positive.
Posted by Daisym on February 26, 2006, at 0:23:03
In reply to Re: moving more deeply into ego state therapy... » Daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on February 25, 2006, at 23:33:38
My therapist found a group run by another therapist in his building that is for women and specifically for csa trauma. But the thought of admitting some of this out loud makes me want to throw up. Which is probably why I need the group. I know a big part of the healing is to lessen the power of secret keeping.
I'm afraid of EMDR for two reasons...both probably groundless and silly, so bear with me. I feel a little like James Kirk in the movie Star Trek V -- "I want my feelings. I NEED my feelings. They make me who I am..." Before therapy and Babble, I was never allowed to talk about this stuff or feel these feelings. When I think about EMDR, all the younger parts start having a huge tantrum about being shut down again, closed off and denied the ability to share the horror of it. It *is* scary and terrible to have these pictures in my head. But they were repressed for so long, I want to allow them for a little while. Is it self-punishment? Or is it self-pity? I'm not sure...and logically I realize that EMDR does not take away the memories.
The other thing I'm afraid of is not being able to access the pictures while doing EMDR and thus creating even more doubt for myself. What if the therapist doesn't believe me? Again, logically I know what happened, happened. But there is a huge existing fear that no one believes me, that I'm a bad girl for telling such stories and I'm gonna get caught. HIS proof will be "better" than mine because I'm just the little kid with a vivid imagination, after all. I said something like this to my therapist last week when he asked what the youngest part of me really wanted to ask...she wanted to know, to feel, that he believed her. He said very gently but firmly that no child can describe penetration, oral sex and sodomy the way she has, over and over again, if it wasn't true. He waited, because hearing him say those words out loud made the room spin wildly, and then he said, "I believe you. Do you hear me?" All I could do was nod. Would an EMDR specialist be able to contain that? It is very frightening to contemplate. Maybe I'm just not ready. But I'll bring it up next week and see what he thinks.
Silly fears right? But real, none the less... :(
Posted by Pfinstegg on February 26, 2006, at 1:22:31
In reply to Re: moving more deeply (trigger) » Pfinstegg, posted by Daisym on February 26, 2006, at 0:23:03
Oh no, not silly at all- they are just terrifying. Mine, too- impossibly terrifying. If your T. has a special group nearby for people suffering from csa, maybe it would be really comforting and helpful, and would lessen the terrible fears you are having. And I do know what you mean- it's terrible to have these fears and memories, but you don't want anyone to "take them away", after you have finally been able to express them. It would feel like part of you is being taken away.
My experience is that the EMDR therapist proceeds very carefully- and in co-operation with one's principle therapist. We had four sessions during which she just found things out. She does each EMDR session very carefully, checking how much fear I am having, stopping if I wish, or just pausing or stopping herself if she feels I am terrified. The sessions are really all about containment of all of you- not about taking anything away. What I have found is that my memories of what happened are, if anything, deeper and more real, but they are less filled with fear and shame. It has helped me to talk about them more deeply with my analyst- and to begin to mourn about them. What has improved is that I don't get so panicky in my analyst's office- I used to do so to the point of derealization, at times. But, I felt that I wanted to do the EMDR (which he had suggested earlier when I wasn't ready)- after three years of analysis I felt ready. My analyst knew another analyst who was trained in it. She is so careful and smart, and only does little bits at a time. She intersperses it with other techniques, which I've mentioned- like having "family meetings" of all the parts so that we will both know how they are reacting to everything, calming, grounding techniques like looking at five things in the room, touching five things, listening and smelling things- can't get to five in a psychiatrist's office for those! She does this whenever she thinks my anxiety is too high. If she feels any part is feeling hopeless, she has special techniques for helping them feel more empowered and valuable- focussing on just that part, and asking what its wishes are. This is what she does- and she really knows how to do it so that you feel contained and safe. Nothing dramatic occurs, for me- just little improvements. But your route may be equally valuable- the group really might be worth a try; you could just use it in whatever way seems right to you.
What I appreciate so much is that my fear and panic is getting slowly under better control. To me, that means that my HPA axis is less in overdrive, so that my depression is less difficult to manage. "We" are still all here, with all our feelings and memories- just a bit more comfortable than before. Truthfully, some of the analytic work, because of it's uncovering nature, made me quite a bit more anxious and terrified for quite a while.
I think things would have calmed down even if I hadn't done the EMDR, but it has helped things along. It undoubtedly influenced me that my analyst knew and trusted a colleague who did it.My analyst is a bit unusual- for an analyst- as he likes to work in a treatment team. I think he feels that both he, and I, gain support and better understanding this way- and that we both have a better chance to grow. I'm including him, because he has said that he feels he grows in some way with each of his patients, and that that is one of the tremendous rewards of being a psychoanalyst. Obviously, it's just as true for psychotherapists who work deeply and intensively with their clients.
Posted by antigua on February 26, 2006, at 21:07:36
In reply to Re: moving more deeply (trigger) » Daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on February 26, 2006, at 1:22:31
I found that the EMDR let me feel what I felt like as a young girl. I have trouble connecting with my emotions, and EMDR reminded me how I must have felt. I won't say it was horrible, but it just made the adult me understand, "Oh that's what the fear felt like."
I don't know how far into the trauma I actually got, but putting me in touch with the feelings was really liberating.
I tried once to share some writing about the csa, but it's too much for regular people to bear, at least IMO. I don't do it anymore, although it is some of my most powerful and honest writing.
I've thought about joing a csa group, and my T is looking into it, but I don't know if it would help me more or would I always be looking out for others.
best to all,
antigua
Posted by Daisym on February 26, 2006, at 23:29:39
In reply to Re: moving more deeply (trigger), posted by antigua on February 26, 2006, at 21:07:36
I guess I don't have any trouble feeling the horror of it, or getting right back to it in a very real way. I do tend to dissociate when it gets overwhelming though, so I know when I've had enough.
Let me know what you think of the group, if you go. And I'll do the same, if I go. I think I'd rather do art therapy in a group, it would keep my hands busy. And I too, worry about care taking the whole group. It would be my style to do that. And to come to the conclusion that I really have nothing to be upset about - "their" stories will seem so much worse than mine. But still, I said I'd try it. So we'll see.
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 1, 2006, at 10:40:56
In reply to Re: moving more deeply (trigger) » antigua, posted by Daisym on February 26, 2006, at 23:29:39
I feel something of a voyeur, to read this thread, but it is fascinating. I marvel at the skill and competency of the therapists you're both working with. It is not by chance that you have the therapeutic safety zones within which you are doing this work. It almost reads as a "how to" primer. I seriously think there could be a book in this work, if either of you thought to want to write about it.
I'm very proud of everyone involved.
Lar
Posted by Pfinstegg on March 1, 2006, at 20:57:23
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg and Daisy..., posted by Larry Hoover on March 1, 2006, at 10:40:56
Thanks so much from us both, Larry! I hope, one of these years, to be able to say that I've overcome the severe PTSD which I have- but am at the moment still struggling hard with it. I know Daisy is, too. If we were to write a book, how about if you join in- that would definitely make it better! To me, it would be, in large part, about the heroic, untiring efforts of the wonderful therapists we have been lucky enough to find. I've kept a daily journal of what has gone on between me and my analyst- three volumes so far- there's definite progress, although not a completely successful ending-as yet. Do you, or Daisy, keep a journal of it all- other than PB, which is a pretty good journal itself?
Posted by zenhussy on March 1, 2006, at 23:27:05
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg and Daisy... » Larry Hoover, posted by Pfinstegg on March 1, 2006, at 20:57:23
> I've kept a daily journal of what has gone on between me and my analyst- three volumes so far- there's definite progress, although not a completely successful ending-as yet. Do you, or Daisy, keep a journal of it all- other than PB, which is a pretty good journal itself?
if only everyone had a chance to look back upon their words over their therapeutic journey.......whoa nellie the lessons we all could learn and the healing that could occur!
hats off to your dedication to journaling this process while immersed in it. appreciations for your sharing on board as well.
Posted by Pfinstegg on March 2, 2006, at 8:56:56
In reply to Re: moving more deeply into ego state therapy » Pfinstegg, posted by zenhussy on March 1, 2006, at 23:27:05
Thank you, zen, for your encouraging words. Sometimes, I look back on my early journal entries, when I didn't know what ego states were, and I see a kind of innocence which I'm almost nostalgic for. But the depression and fear were much more crippling then. My analyst said recently, "I do believe that the truth can set us free. Do you?". I had to agree. I don't think we have ever posted to one anther directly, before, so thanks for writing.
Posted by Daisym on March 2, 2006, at 11:36:27
In reply to Re: moving more deeply into ego state therapy » zenhussy, posted by Pfinstegg on March 2, 2006, at 8:56:56
I've kept a journal most of my life...and destroyed them off and on. About 15 months ago I destroyed the journal I was writing about therapy. I got terrified someone would find it, even though it was electronic and double password protected, etc. I wonder if there is a way to have these things self destruct. I was in an emotional state of crisis, beyond reach and reason. When I told my therapist what I had done (I was also quitting therapy) he said he felt like HE had been kicked in the stomach. It was around that time that we really figured out how important writing was to me and how much it has helped my therapy along. I've mentioned that other therapists don't seem to want clients to bring in their writings or read from the pages, I guess because they want what is real, in real time. But for me, what is real is on those pages. And reading them to him is like sharing really, really private pieces of my soul. I get lost in the words and let all the little parts write. And it gets ugly and graphic...He said he has always appreciated the depth of my writing and the fact that I'm willing to talk about the words on the page makes journaling a very important part of our work together.
Anyway...I guess that is a really long way to say I keep a journal too.
Posted by littleone on March 2, 2006, at 14:46:29
In reply to Re: moving more deeply into ego state therapy » zenhussy, posted by Pfinstegg on March 2, 2006, at 8:56:56
I hardly talk, so journaling is the main (and sometimes only) way I ever communicate with my T. So I can go back and read old entries and see how I've grown.
But I always wish that I would have written down what he said to stuff I've written. I think it would be so much more complete to see comments he made that had an impact on me.
Even now I wish I would write down after our session what he said, but I'm usually too out of it or too upset or too avoidant of it all to be able to do that.
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 3, 2006, at 13:02:42
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg and Daisy... » Larry Hoover, posted by Pfinstegg on March 1, 2006, at 20:57:23
> Thanks so much from us both, Larry! I hope, one of these years, to be able to say that I've overcome the severe PTSD which I have- but am at the moment still struggling hard with it.
Overcome the PTSD....If it would only stand still, so that I might take its measure.
> I know Daisy is, too. If we were to write a book, how about if you join in- that would definitely make it better!
You're too kind. :-)
But that would probably mean we'd meet, real face time, and that would be nice.
You were the one that first talked to me about ego states. It was what brought my eye onto this thread, to see that you were going to talk some more about that. I'm still trying to figure out how the concept might apply to me. It's got my attention.....
> To me, it would be, in large part, about the heroic, untiring efforts of the wonderful therapists we have been lucky enough to find.
Heroic indeed.
> I've kept a daily journal of what has gone on between me and my analyst- three volumes so far- there's definite progress, although not a completely successful ending-as yet. Do you, or Daisy, keep a journal of it all- other than PB, which is a pretty good journal itself?
I have never kept a journal. I've tried to get one started, but it ends up with very little in it. It's a thinking styles thing? Or a "the time is right to write" kind of thing, but remembering to pick up a pen?
Lar
Posted by Pfinstegg on March 6, 2006, at 21:35:44
In reply to Journaling » Pfinstegg, posted by littleone on March 2, 2006, at 14:46:29
I have recorded a lot of his quotes, and my impressions of his tone of voice, how caring it felt, etc. It's a real resource for me, especially in difficult times.
Posted by Daisym on March 6, 2006, at 23:43:49
In reply to Re: moving more deeply (trigger) » Daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on February 26, 2006, at 1:22:31
I'm revisiting this thread tonight because it has been really relevent the past week for me. I did talk to my therapist about EMDR and my feelings about it. I wondered if I wasn't being masochistic in my need to keep feeling these feelings...or worse...wallowing in self-pity. He said it made sense for me (or parts of me) to be afraid of being put back in the deep freeze. And it seems really critical to the angry part of me that she be allowed to HURT in a big way, because she had to keep all those feelings at bay for so long. And she not only wants to HURT but she wants a witness to that HURT. She wants it confirmed that, indeed, what happened was Bad. With a capital B. I guess we still have a lot of work to do here around letting it go and leaving it in the past.
The other reason I'm rereading is that I tried your "family meeting" idea. I wrote a little about it below, but it was a really interesting exercise and opened up a lot of conversation about needing and wanting and desperately NOT wanting and needing. No wonder I'm so tense, all these parts are in total conflict about what would be soothing. And discussing this exercise with my therapist allowed me to see why one age is so fearful about what another age wants. Which helped me to understand why the idea of going to a group made me feel like I'd lose my therapist. Telling meant risking losing my dad -- and maybe even my mom. So telling now means risking my therapist. I hate transference!
Anyway, thank you for sharing that idea. I hope you don't mind that I tried it. Today was better. Calmer. Though for the first time ever I think my therapist forgot about something he said he would do. I guess we'll see tomorrow. I didn't bring it up, so maybe he was waiting for me? I wish everything in therapy didn't mean so much.
Hugs from me,
Daisy
This is the end of the thread.
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