![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by antigua on October 23, 2005, at 18:46:46
I'm getting really good at faking my life, pretending that everything is fine when inside I feel worse than mabye ever before. Maybe not that bad, but pretty bad.
I have a new pdoc who I saw on Friday. I'm certain much of these low, low feelings are about medication. The pdoc switched me off Effexor to Cymbalta, but I feel like i'm on nothing. It's all there, and I can't get away from it. He says we need to give the new drug more time; sometimes I worry there isn't time. Three days this week I stayed in bed literally all day, but, of course, jumped out of bed when the kids came home from school.
Therapy is so hard right now. Part of me thinks it's good to be hit w/these intense feelings while I'm unmedicated because I really think the medication keeps me from feeling. Feelings are always blocked; they aren't now. I still don't cry, though, that's the hardest thing to do. A good long cry would help, I'm sure.
Same old story: I just want to be held and told that it's all going to be o.k. I want to be touched, too, to satisfy the desire, and that's humiliating to face. Tricky thing is it has to be by a man and it's not my husband. I'd like to just get the damn hug so I'd discover it isn't what I long for, and then I could move forward.
I can't stop thinking about my father and how much I loved him. I have this real dilemma, which I'm working on. If, as my wonderful T says, he is totally responsible for the abuse (I accept this intellectually), that means I was less than nothing to him. It was him taking advantage of whatever body was available. So to take that tact leaves me with even worse feelings for myself. And yes, I did want the love and attention the good father gave me, and I know that I was just a child and that every child craves the attention, but to think I was nothing, that I asked for it, is so much harder to take.
Does this make any sense? I'm sorry; I'm just so miserable. I know the meds will kick in, but moment to moment is so difficult.
antigua
Posted by Tamar on October 23, 2005, at 20:02:14
In reply to Such a fake **Trigger** csa, posted by antigua on October 23, 2005, at 18:46:46
> I'm getting really good at faking my life, pretending that everything is fine when inside I feel worse than mabye ever before. Maybe not that bad, but pretty bad.
I’m so sorry. It sounds awful.
> I have a new pdoc who I saw on Friday. I'm certain much of these low, low feelings are about medication. The pdoc switched me off Effexor to Cymbalta, but I feel like i'm on nothing. It's all there, and I can't get away from it. He says we need to give the new drug more time; sometimes I worry there isn't time. Three days this week I stayed in bed literally all day, but, of course, jumped out of bed when the kids came home from school.
Can you get help with the kids? Maybe until the new meds kick in?
> Therapy is so hard right now. Part of me thinks it's good to be hit w/these intense feelings while I'm unmedicated because I really think the medication keeps me from feeling. Feelings are always blocked; they aren't now. I still don't cry, though, that's the hardest thing to do. A good long cry would help, I'm sure.
Yeah… but you have to be ready to cry…
> Same old story: I just want to be held and told that it's all going to be o.k. I want to be touched, too, to satisfy the desire, and that's humiliating to face. Tricky thing is it has to be by a man and it's not my husband. I'd like to just get the damn hug so I'd discover it isn't what I long for, and then I could move forward.I think I know exactly what you mean. I wish therapists would realise this. But yeah: it has to be a man (in my case he has to be older that me) and it can’t be my husband, because he’s my husband.
I hope this isn’t too triggering… I’ve read in a number of places that women with a history of abuse often have sexual problems in long term relationships but have a tendency to get sexually involved with men outside their relationships and have much more satisfying sex. I think it’s probably the same kind of thing with the hugging. I think there’s something we look for that becomes somehow compromised in long term relationships. Maybe being with someone who loves us (or someone we know well) is somehow too dangerous…
And I think you’re right: I think the hug with another man won’t bring you what you long for. Even the best kind of sexual touch won’t do it. I’ve come to think that, for me, it’s a quest for magical healing. A kind of once-for-all touch that makes me all better. That’s what I want. And I find it so frustrating to have to face up to the idea that it doesn’t exist.
> I can't stop thinking about my father and how much I loved him. I have this real dilemma, which I'm working on. If, as my wonderful T says, he is totally responsible for the abuse (I accept this intellectually), that means I was less than nothing to him. It was him taking advantage of whatever body was available. So to take that tact leaves me with even worse feelings for myself. And yes, I did want the love and attention the good father gave me, and I know that I was just a child and that every child craves the attention, but to think I was nothing, that I asked for it, is so much harder to take.Well… there are so many ways of thinking of it. I’ve read that abusers rationalise the abuse and can come to believe that they really are offering love. Of course, abuse isn’t loving. But perhaps abusers think of it as loving, even if they’re completely misguided (and even if they conveniently ‘forget’ the coercion and the suffering involved). So it’s possible that your father loved you very much and split off that love from the knowledge that he was harming you.
I don’t know. I haven’t been through what you’ve been through. But I’m sure that the guys who raped me thought they were offering me an erotic experience that I would enjoy (sex with two men: a common fantasy), and didn’t want to think about the coercive aspects of the situation. They were still responsible for the coercion, though.
I think ultimately it’s an extraordinarily difficult question: if your father loved you, how could he have hurt you so badly? And none of the explanations are satisfactory. I think everyone who has been hurt in that way tries to find ways to reconcile love and abuse: maybe he didn’t understand he was hurting you. Maybe he thought he was helping you. Maybe he had been hurt himself. All these ideas cross people minds. And they’re ultimately unsatisfying because they can never get to the root of your suffering. Nothing can adequately explain why someone would do something like this and why it should hurt so much. And so you end up split as well: he loved you, but he hurt you. Maybe there is no answer and no explanation. Maybe only thing you can do is try to make sense of where you are now. For some people (and I don't know if it would work for you) that means reconciling the image of abusive father with the image of the loving father.
I wish I could say something that would actually help.
I’m so very sorry you’re hurting so much. I do hope those meds kick in soon.
Tamar
Posted by daisym on October 23, 2005, at 20:32:27
In reply to Such a fake **Trigger** csa, posted by antigua on October 23, 2005, at 18:46:46
>>>>I'm getting really good at faking my life, pretending that everything is fine when inside I feel worse than mabye ever before. Maybe not that bad, but pretty bad.
<<<<<I know about pretty bad. And I really know about faking it. It is an old defensive position, how can anyone hurt me if they don't see the weak spots? And frankly, I guess I don't think they CAN help me so there is no reason to let them see all the anguish. Does this ring true? If you don't believe it would help to let it out, it gets almost impossible to this.>>>I have a new pdoc who I saw on Friday. I'm certain much of these low, low feelings are about medication. The pdoc switched me off Effexor to Cymbalta, but I feel like i'm on nothing. It's all there, and I can't get away from it. He says we need to give the new drug more time; sometimes I worry there isn't time. Three days this week I stayed in bed literally all day, but, of course, jumped out of bed when the kids came home from school.
<<<<Getting out of bed for the kids proves how strong you are. You are doing what you know you have to. Going to a new pdoc also takes strength. I see a new one on Wed and I'm terrified. I guess I agree that you do need to give the new drug sometime to work but it sounds awfully hard waiting for it to kick in. Try not to be too hard on yourself during this switch.>>>>>>Therapy is so hard right now. Part of me thinks it's good to be hit w/these intense feelings while I'm unmedicated because I really think the medication keeps me from feeling. Feelings are always blocked; they aren't now. I still don't cry, though, that's the hardest thing to do. A good long cry would help, I'm sure.
<<<<Feelings are definately a double-edge sword. It is hard to feel them intensely but I agree that the walled off, sort of empty feeling is awful too. For me, it reminds me how I've felt most of my life, numb and dissociated. I cried in Church this morning. It did feel like a release of sorts but not near enough. Maybe watch an old movie or look at old pictures.>>>>>Same old story: I just want to be held and told that it's all going to be o.k. I want to be touched, too, to satisfy the desire, and that's humiliating to face. Tricky thing is it has to be by a man and it's not my husband. I'd like to just get the damn hug so I'd discover it isn't what I long for, and then I could move forward.
<<<<*sigh* I wish I knew what to suggest here. Those needs are linked and old yet so human too. Would it be worth it to just 'steal' the hug? Sort of in a 'I lost my head' kind of way. Can you talk to your therapist about the desires that feel humiliating? I think this might lead to a powerful discussion about needs and sex and love and how they all get mixed up.>>>>>I can't stop thinking about my father and how much I loved him. I have this real dilemma, which I'm working on. If, as my wonderful T says, he is totally responsible for the abuse (I accept this intellectually), that means I was less than nothing to him. It was him taking advantage of whatever body was available. So to take that tact leaves me with even worse feelings for myself. And yes, I did want the love and attention the good father gave me, and I know that I was just a child and that every child craves the attention, but to think I was nothing, that I asked for it, is so much harder to take.
<<<<I don't believe you were nothing to your dad. You don't know what his motives or pathologies were, just as I will never know what drove my dad. But I believe that the love they felt for us was real, twisted maybe, but real. And the anger that got all mixed up in it was probably at themselves, not at us. It was just the only way they could live with themselves, to introject these horrible feelings of guilt and self-hatred into us. I think it is hard to come to grips with the two dads that exist for us and if we do, does that mean we have to give up the loving parts that meant so much to us? I have to say that of all the best things my therapist has done for me is to accept that I love my dad and still want him in my life in some way, while simultaneously letting me hate him for all the pain, then and now. Interestingly enough, for me, the "I'm nothing" mantra comes in around my mom. I believe I wasn't worth saving, wasn't worth looking closely at and still have to hide my pain in order to be acceptable to her.>>>>>Does this make any sense? I'm sorry; I'm just so miserable. I know the meds will kick in, but moment to moment is so difficult.
<<<<<<It makes perfect sense to me. And moment by moment is the only way to get through it. Don't be sorry for sharing. I wish I could do something about your misery besides matching stories. Hang on though, it is important to keep your head above water. Keep posting. Sometimes jsut writing it down helps.
Tight hugs from me.
Daisy
Posted by Monkeyoga on October 23, 2005, at 21:35:05
In reply to Such a fake **Trigger** csa, posted by antigua on October 23, 2005, at 18:46:46
> Same old story: I just want to be held and told that it's all going to be o.k.
That's usually what I want also. Sometimes the simplest things can be the most helpful.
Posted by fairywings on October 24, 2005, at 0:06:46
In reply to Such a fake **Trigger** csa, posted by antigua on October 23, 2005, at 18:46:46
> I'm getting really good at faking my life, pretending that everything is fine when inside I feel worse than mabye ever before. Maybe not that bad, but pretty bad.
I'm so sorry it feels so bad antigua. It's painful to feel you have to hide from everyone.
>
> I have a new pdoc who I saw on Friday. I'm certain much of these low, low feelings are about medication. The pdoc switched me off Effexor to Cymbalta,Was there a reason to be switched off the Effexor? Do you have good feelings about your new doc?
>>Three days this week I stayed in bed literally all day, but, of course, jumped out of bed when the kids came home from school.
You're a good mom to get out of bed for your children when you're feeling so bad antigua. They're really lucky, and it's good that you are able to make that effort for them. I know how hard it must be. Tamar had a good suggestion, any chance you could get a little help, just to tide you over till the meds kick in?
>
> Therapy is so hard right now. Part of me thinks it's good to be hit w/these intense feelings while I'm unmedicated because I really think the medication keeps me from feeling. Feelings are always blocked; they aren't now. I still don't cry, though, that's the hardest thing to do. A good long cry would help, I'm sure.It feels terrible both to have the really intense sadness, and to wonder where your feelings have gone or if you even have feelings anymore. I hope you get leveled out on the Cymbalta, and reach a mid point.
>
> Same old story: I just want to be held and told that it's all going to be o.k. I want to be touched, too, to satisfy the desire, and that's humiliating to face. Tricky thing is it has to be by a man and it's not my husband. I'd like to just get the damn hug so I'd discover it isn't what I long for, and then I could move forward.I hope you do get that hug, and I hope that it feels good even if it's not the healing that you need. I think this must be a common need for women (or ppl) who've been abused. The need for hugs, because of thinking the hugs will be healing. When I want more from someone I think it will be healing and make me feel like there's an intimate (not necessarily sexual but on a more spiritual level) connection to the person.
>
> I can't stop thinking about my father and how much I loved him. I have this real dilemma, which I'm working on. If, as my wonderful T says, he is totally responsible for the abuseYour father was responsible for his own actions. We're all responsible for our own actions. You didn't ask for the abuse, you just wanted his attention, and you didn't know any differently because you were a child. I know you said that, but it's true, and it sounded like you're having trouble accepting that. I'm not sure it meant you were less than nothing to him though. I think some ppl who abuse have such a warped way of thinking about relationships and you just don't know why they do those things. I certainly don't know why my father did, it's just too "out there" for me to understand.
>
> Does this make any sense? I'm sorry; I'm just so miserable. I know the meds will kick in, but moment to moment is so difficult.It makes a lot of sense. Sounds like you're just trying to sort through a lot of really painful and confusing stuff, and need to talk it out. I hope the meds kick in for you, and that you don't feel as down or stop feeling altogether. Neither is good. In the meantime hang on to your T and babble.
fw
Posted by Damos on October 24, 2005, at 1:24:53
In reply to Such a fake **Trigger** csa, posted by antigua on October 23, 2005, at 18:46:46
> I'm getting really good at faking my life, pretending that everything is fine when inside I feel worse than mabye ever before. Maybe not that bad, but pretty bad.
Aw Antigua, don't you go being sorry now, okay. There's nothing to be sorry about. What you said was all too familiar to me and it's a lousy place to be.
Coming off one drug is hard enough without the waiting and wondering if the new one is actually doing anything. You sound like a great mum to me. It might not sound or seem like much, but getting up before they get home is something to be proud of.> Therapy is so hard right now. Part of me thinks it's good to be hit w/these intense feelings while I'm unmedicated because I really think the medication keeps me from feeling. Feelings are always blocked; they aren't now. I still don't cry, though, that's the hardest thing to do. A good long cry would help, I'm sure.
I didn't cry for a long time till the big trigger and it was such a relief. But like someone else says you need to be prepared for some serious waterworks when the dam breaks. Maybe part of it is not to worry too much about whether you should or shouldn't cry over a particular thing, but to just feel the feeling that are there and just let whatever happens happen.
> Same old story: I just want to be held and told that it's all going to be o.k. I want to be touched, too, to satisfy the desire, and that's humiliating to face. Tricky thing is it has to be by a man and it's not my husband. I'd like to just get the damn hug so I'd discover it isn't what I long for, and then I could move forward.I have the same feelings too. My family were not into verbal or physical expressions of affection so I'm at a loss with all that stuff. But I'm willing to try if you are. Okay so if it's alright we'll just start with a little tiny one (Antigua). Was that okay? Little more ((Antigua)). Still okay? Alright now just close your eyes, cause it's all gonna be okay(((((Antigua))))).
Thanks Antigua, you give great hugs.The dad stuff must be so hard. Just know you didn't do anything wrong - not ever.
Hang in there okay, you mean a lot to us.
Posted by antigua on October 24, 2005, at 7:33:21
In reply to Such a fake **Trigger** csa, posted by antigua on October 23, 2005, at 18:46:46
Posted by antigua on October 24, 2005, at 7:46:52
In reply to Re: Such a fake **Trigger** csa » antigua, posted by Tamar on October 23, 2005, at 20:02:14
"I think I know exactly what you mean. I wish therapists would realise this. But yeah: it has to be a man (in my case he has to be older that me) and it can’t be my husband, because he’s my husband."
>>I'm trying to reach out to my husband more, because he really does give the best hugs, but as you say, it's not the same thing, it's not what I need.
"I hope this isn’t too triggering… I’ve read in a number of places that women with a history of abuse often have sexual problems in long term relationships but have a tendency to get sexually involved with men outside their relationships and have much more satisfying sex. I think it’s probably the same kind of thing with the hugging. I think there’s something we look for that becomes somehow compromised in long term relationships. Maybe being with someone who loves us (or someone we know well) is somehow too dangerous…"
>>wow, some of this I've certainly thought of. My sister is the one who took the more promiscuous (s?) path. She is not well and we've never actually spoken about it, but I'm certain she was abused too. She's five years older. She has hated me my whole life (I'm serious; anyone in my family would vouch for this) and I think it has to do w/my father turning from me to her. I never had a sister, really, just another cost of the abuse (I'm not whining!)
>>As to an outside relationship being more sexually fulfilling, I wouldn't know, I've never had one. (That's not to say that at this particulr time if a certain man were to show interest that I could get myself into trouble). I've been in a very long-standing relationship w/my husband, and the good thing is that the sex is much better now than ever before--something to do with me letting go more and not being so afraid.
"And I think you’re right: I think the hug with another man won’t bring you what you long for. Even the best kind of sexual touch won’t do it. I’ve come to think that, for me, it’s a quest for magical healing. A kind of once-for-all touch that makes me all better. That’s what I want. And I find it so frustrating to have to find out it doesn't exist."
<<why do we have to go through life this way? At this point it is not a choice; maybe later on I will be able to see it that way, but not now, it's not finished.
I truly think that I'm blinded by the love I have for my father so that I don't have to look at the other side of him. Even after all this time, I still can't face that man. I'm ready to jump over to forgiving him because he had a deprived, disturbed childhood (not an excuse). My real problem, I think, is that I can't get to the anger, or the feelings. I'm bleeding inside but I can't let it out.
Thanks for your kind words. I really appreciate it.
antigua
Posted by antigua on October 24, 2005, at 7:55:04
In reply to Re: Such a fake **Trigger** csa » antigua, posted by daisym on October 23, 2005, at 20:32:27
Thanks, dasiy, I know you understand. I made myself get up this morning, and I actually took a walk so that's progress. (Gee, does that accomplishment account for the whole day? Can I go back to bed now?). Problem w/staying in bed is that both my husband and I work at home and he just comes and stares at me sometimes, shaking his head, so that just adds another layer. He's difficult in many ways.
I can't say I actually like my new pdoc yet, but this past Friday was kind of interesting. He says he doesn't "do" therapy, but he sure tried. I didn't like it. You can't dump 14 years of stuff in the time allotted. I do like that he didn't just throw meds at me (oh how comforting they can be sometimes). I feel that I'm being a chance to feel so I should try to go ahead and do it.
I can understand your feelings about your father. My T has been very good about letting me hold onto to the good parts of him; she encourages it in fact, for me to try and see that he was a complicated person. She seems to think that if I hold on to the good parts then maybe, just maybe, I can reach the bad parts.
I loved your idea about "stealing a hug." I might just try that. It's the obsession over it that's torturing me and if I ask and he says no, I have to be prepared for that rejection as well.
I know these situations are supposed to be helpful in resolving the issues, but I never seem to get there.you're a good friend,
antigua
Posted by ClearSkies on October 24, 2005, at 7:58:34
In reply to Such a fake **Trigger** csa, posted by antigua on October 23, 2005, at 18:46:46
When I switched to Cymbalta from Effexor it took 6 weeks for me to really feel better. It's been far better for me, though. The side effects have been neglible and it is working at controlling my depression. If you can stick with it, I hope you'll feel the same relief I have.
CS
Posted by antigua on October 24, 2005, at 8:00:52
In reply to Re: Such a fake **Trigger** csa, posted by fairywings on October 24, 2005, at 0:06:46
Thanks for your kind thoughts.
New pdoc took me off Effexor because I started to slide into this bout of depression and I had just about maxxed out on Effexor. So, since I'm feeling very low, he pulls the rug out and starts again. It will probably be o.k. in the long run, but right now it hurts just too much. I have to laugh when he asks all the usual questions about hurting myself. My answer is only "I have three children," and I can't say anymore. The depths of depression are so separated by the kids but it's still so scary.
My kids are older so I don't need help w/them, but I appreciate the suggestion. They are their own forces of nature, they just whirl around me and I try to keep up.
I have been leaning on my T. Therapy twice a week for the last few weeks, so that's good. But part of me just wants to scream "Leave me alone!!!"
thanks,
antigua
Posted by antigua on October 24, 2005, at 8:03:47
In reply to Re: Such a fake **Trigger** csa » antigua, posted by Damos on October 24, 2005, at 1:24:53
Thank you. I loved the cyber hug, it meant so much to me. How can we live in this cyber world of people who truly understand how we feel, who we can emphathize with and would help out in real life if we were all together. Why can't the real world be this way??
Tell me how to let the anger out.
antigua
Posted by antigua on October 24, 2005, at 8:05:30
In reply to (((Antigua))), posted by ClearSkies on October 24, 2005, at 7:58:34
Thanks for the encouragement. Did it make you want to drink? I haven't, but I guess I'm so low that it's all I can think of to numb out the pain. But I WON'T do that.
antigua
Posted by antigua on October 24, 2005, at 8:06:32
In reply to Re: Such a fake **Trigger** csa, posted by Monkeyoga on October 23, 2005, at 21:35:05
Then why are people so cheap w/their hugs??? Not here, and I don't mean you, but you'd think more people would understand.
antigua
Posted by terrics on October 24, 2005, at 9:42:57
In reply to Such a fake **Trigger** csa, posted by antigua on October 23, 2005, at 18:46:46
{{{Antigua}}} Cyber hugs are not the same. You are loved here. terrics
Posted by ClearSkies on October 24, 2005, at 10:41:33
In reply to Re: (((Antigua))) » ClearSkies, posted by antigua on October 24, 2005, at 8:05:30
> Thanks for the encouragement. Did it make you want to drink? I haven't, but I guess I'm so low that it's all I can think of to numb out the pain. But I WON'T do that.
> antiguaSince I drank as much (at first) on Cymbalta as I did on Effexor, I guess it didn't make things worse. What really helped my cravings has been Campral. My anxiety is reduced to what I think is "normal", and it has only been since I started that medication and have been able to stay sober. Having support at home makes an enormous difference, too.
What has also helped me has been to slow down - I am trying not to initiate any major changes in my life. For example, I don't like my T (**see - thread doesn't need to be redirected!!**) but instead of bailing out like I impulsively want to do, I am looking for a new therapist first. It sounds like common sense, but when I'm not feeling right, I rush to change as many things as I can until I feel better.
ClearSkies
Posted by JenStar on October 24, 2005, at 10:49:34
In reply to Such a fake **Trigger** csa, posted by antigua on October 23, 2005, at 18:46:46
hi Antigua,
I'm sorry you're hurting so badly! ((antigua))I think it's true that ALL the abuse was in NO WAY your fault as a child, or even a young girl.
Children love and trust their adults, and do what they are told. Children are mimics -- they do what their adults teach them because that is the way they grow up. Children crave touch and attention, and can get trapped into "bad" touch because they are simply incapable of saying no to their adults, and don't even know that "no" is an option.
And small children even can experience orgasm or good feelings in their genitals, and that can make it even more awful and confusing, because there is a small piece of good feeling that comes along with the abuse and fear and pain and the scary confusion...and that makes the children feel guilty. But still - it is NEVER the fault of the child. NEVER.
I don't think you were less than nothing. I think your father was a sick, sick man. I think on some level he may be devastated to the point of self-hate at what he did to you. No child deserves that. Some people are very sick and cannot help their unnatural urges, even if they KNOW it's wrong and awful and terrible, even if they want to stop.
I'm NOT making excuses for him!! I just want to say that I don't believe you were EVER 'less than nothing.' You're a wonderful person who is struggling hard to overcome a difficult past. You were a wonderful child who was abused by a sick, weak, unfortunate man who had no business being near you. I'm so sorry.
I don't know what to say that might help, even though I sooooo wish I could help ease your pain. I'll just reiterate that you were NOT at fault EVER even if you loved your father, and that you were NOT 'less than nothing' -- he was sick and diseased and took a wonderful child and mistreated her awfully.
I hope you're doing OK. Please take care of yourself.
JenStar
Posted by Poet on October 24, 2005, at 18:07:41
In reply to Such a fake **Trigger** csa, posted by antigua on October 23, 2005, at 18:46:46
Hi Antigua,
Everything you've said makes sense, except that you asked for what happened to you. As a little girl you wanted and deserved attention from your father. What he did to you is nothing you asked for, wanted or deserved.
I go over blaming myself about CSA all the time. *But if I hadn't...he wouldn't have...* I know how easy it is to find any little thing to blame myself for what happened. I have no answer, wish I did, other than my T's constant reminder that I need to forgive myself for blaming myself. Forgive yourself, just a tiny bit, I'm trying to as I write this.
Meds take time. When do you see new pdoc again? When mine was adjusting meds it was every two week, then four weeks.
Safe cyber hugs.
Poet
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