![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 5 to 29 of 29. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 15:05:02
In reply to Worst Ever (trigger), posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 12:52:14
hey. sounds like you have been having a pretty hard time of it with your t. i mean... sometimes you come away from a good session where he has said some stuff to get you thinking, or some stuff that has been helpful. but mostly... you seem to feel more distressed after seeing him / talking to him than you felt before you went.
and as for the 'is it me or is it him' thing... i guess its just the both of you together and sometimes that happens and it isn't anyones fault but that is the way it is.
>He said "you are suspicious of anyone like me who wants to help."
and given some of the stuff he says to you its no wonder!
> I said no she wouldn't have. He said, "She wouldn't have? Well that doesn't sound like her to me. That's very different from the way I see her."and of course the way he sees her is just the way she must be because he knows you better than you do - right???!
you pay him a lot of money... for what? for an encounter with robo-therapist? so he can tell you in an authoratative tone that you are *just like* your abusers? so he can undermine your self confidence completely? so he can reinforce your suspicion that you are cold and uncaring and incapable of genuine caring connections with other people?
maybe its just where i am at at this point but i would say...
its your money.
you need someone to help you have more confidence in yourself and your ability to know yourself and relate to yourself and to other people too. not sure whether he is helping or harming... but there has gotta be someone else out there who is more respectful and ultimately more helpful for you...maybe it where i'm at but i would say... i'd have had enough of him about now. you have tried talking to him about being cold and what does he do? he throws that back on you and doesn't take responsibility for his contribution to the unhelpful dialectic. he doesn't take responsibility for his defensive body language and defensive things he says...
and so... he undermines your confidence in yourself. i don't see how that helps...
Posted by Dinah on October 20, 2005, at 15:18:56
In reply to Worst Ever (trigger), posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 12:52:14
I don't see how anything he told you was overly useful. And if he can explain what he was hoping to accomplish, and how what he said can help accomplish it, I'd be very interested to hear. I don't assume it can't be done, but it would have to be a heck of an explanation.
What I've been seeing on Babble is that you've been trying very hard to see this therapist in the best possible terms. And overall, until this post, I have always had the impression that he cares about you. I don't know. Maybe he drinks or something.
Or...
Is it possible he's completely different with different parts of you? Like he has several completely different relationships going on with one body? Would he have said this to the more vulnerable parts of you? Does he feel frustrated or angry with parts of you?
That's no excuse of course. They're supposed to be able to keep themselves under control, and their worst relationship with *any* part of you should still be professional and in your best interests.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 15:22:46
In reply to Worst I've Ever Heard, posted by Dinah on October 20, 2005, at 15:18:56
> Is it possible he's completely different with different parts of you? Like he has several completely different relationships going on with one body? Would he have said this to the more vulnerable parts of you? Does he feel frustrated or angry with parts of you?
If he was doing this...
It is typically thought that one should treat all parts consistently (to model consistency). Treating different parts differently would only encourages their distinctiveness...(Okay so thats just 'typically thought' and that doesn't mean it is right... but I have to say that it makes sense to me)
Posted by Dinah on October 20, 2005, at 15:25:24
In reply to Re: Worst I've Ever Heard » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 15:22:46
Well, I must confess that my therapist reacts quite differently to me at my most rational than he does to me at my most vulnerable and emotional. And rightly so, in context.
But never in such a way that either encourages distinctness or more importantly, is less than respectful (no matter how disrespectful of him I am at my most rational).
Posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 15:42:08
In reply to Re: Worst Ever (trigger) » cricket, posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 15:05:02
Hi Alex,
I think based on your message above we are in a similar place.
so he can undermine your self confidence completely? so he can reinforce your suspicion that you are cold and uncaring and incapable of genuine caring connections with other people?
>
yes, those are exactly the areas where I feel like he has done the most harm. My self confidence has dropped since I've been seeing him. That is consistent. But I used to think he was telling me that I could make a connection with other people. But no more. In the last several months, and it really all started back with that dream where the little girl tried to return his phone call (remember the this is a very negative transference dream).
he throws that back on you and doesn't take responsibility for his contribution to the unhelpful dialectic.> and so... he undermines your confidence in yourself. i don't see how that helps...
I wonder if that is what is happening to my confidence. I say I know you don't like so and so and he says I have no problem with them you have a problem with yourself. So everything is back on me. And even if it's true that it is all me. He doesn't help me figure out what to do.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 15:47:01
In reply to Re: Worst I've Ever Heard » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on October 20, 2005, at 15:25:24
> Well, I must confess that my therapist reacts quite differently to me at my most rational than he does to me at my most vulnerable and emotional. And rightly so, in context.
Oh yes, rightly so in context.
But it sounds to me that when the cricket who posts here expresses her vulnerability she is as likely to be demeaned and blamed as she is to get a helpful response. Maybe this generalises to other parts too. In which case this is unhelpful. Maybe he is more sympathetic to other parts. In which case this is unhelpful because it doesn't generalise back to his treatment of the cricket who posts here - or it generalises back very erratically indeed. Either way...The cricket I see is a wonderfully sensitive and caring individual who is capable of offering caring support and advice to others. She is also capable of expressing herself really well and willing to look at her motivations and the things she contributes to the unhelpful dialectic that has emerged in therapy.
And that seems to me... That her behaviour is more adaptive, more healthy than anything he is modelling to her. More healthy and adaptive than anything he is encouraging from her. He seems to sow seeds of doubt. And to encourage them by discounting much of what she says and criticising or ignoring most of her genuine efforts.
I think he is facing his demons...
And not faring very well at all...I reckon...
He needs more help than she does...Cricket - you need someone to work with you on elaborating and extending your strengths and abilities. Not someone who undermines you and encourages you to doubt yourself your strengths and your abilities.
Posted by Dinah on October 20, 2005, at 15:53:47
In reply to Re: Worst I've Ever Heard » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 15:47:01
Posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 15:54:24
In reply to Worst I've Ever Heard, posted by Dinah on October 20, 2005, at 15:18:56
>
> What I've been seeing on Babble is that you've been trying very hard to see this therapist in the best possible terms. And overall, until this post, I have always had the impression that he cares about you. I don't know. Maybe he drinks or something.
>
You made me laugh about the drinking.
> Or...
>
> Is it possible he's completely different with different parts of you? Like he has several completely different relationships going on with one body? Would he have said this to the more vulnerable parts of you? Does he feel frustrated or angry with parts of you?
>
Yes, well that's a thought. I know he said something (he was trying to tell me about the relationship between my parts) about not liking what someone does or how they act but still caring about them as a person. I thought well he's talking about how he feels about me too. He doesn't like me very much right now but he still cares. But I think that was me grasping at straws. And what have I done? I have no power to do or not do anything.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 15:56:03
In reply to Re: Worst Ever (trigger) » alexandra_k, posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 15:42:08
> I wonder if that is what is happening to my confidence.
I think it would indeed be an understandable response to much of what he says to you, and much of his behaviour in response to you. If he said those things to me... I would feel very hurt and confused indeed. And the reason why I would feel hurt and confused is because I would figure that he must know what he is talking about because he is the expert. And so I would take what he has to say very seriously and engage in some very serious soul searching...
And I think that it would play on my fears...
And hurt me...
And... I don't see how that helps. I don't see how that helps at all.>I say I know you don't like so and so and he says I have no problem with them you have a problem with yourself.
>So everything is back on me. And even if it's true that it is all me. He doesn't help me figure out what to do.
And even if that is the truth it is not said in a palatable way. And that is precisely because it doesn't help you figure out what to do about it, as you note.
A caring manner... Goes along way.
But its something that he doesn't seem to have figured out.
His stuff.
But it seems to harm you more than help...
Because he could have....
I mean it is fairly clear that you don't like them so much. That is precisely why they are experienced as 'other' rather than as 'me'.
A little sympathy can go a long way...
Sounds like that is something he needs to learn.
But thats his stuff. You don't pay him to try and help him better himself. I'm so very sure that you could do so very much better for yourself
Posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 16:15:55
In reply to Re: Worst Ever (trigger) » cricket, posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 15:56:03
> >I say I know you don't like so and so and he says I have no problem with them you have a problem with yourself.
> >So everything is back on me. And even if it's true that it is all me. He doesn't help me figure out what to do.Sounds to me like you had a lot of pretty sh*tty things happen in your life when you were a kid. That your feelings were discounted and you were shamed or blamed for having those feelings. But those feelings were understandable responses from a sensitive person like you are. And by other people discounting them you started to doubt them. And blame yourself for having them. And came to believe that there was something wrong with you for having them. And so your environment encouraged you to sacrifice and supress part of your legitimate responses so you would behave how they wanted you to behave.
And instead of showing you that those feelings and responses are understandable and legitimate responses from a sensitive individual toward such an uncaring invalidating and devaluing environment...
He perpeptuates the cycle...
And / or he allows you to.It isn't your fault Cricket.
This isn't something you did to yourself.
It may well be something you have come to do...
But it is a learned behaviour.
Your environment modelled it for you
And he is continuing to...I don't see how that helps.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 16:16:17
In reply to Re: Worst Ever (trigger), posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 16:15:55
Posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 16:20:05
In reply to Re: Worst I've Ever Heard » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 15:47:01
>
> Oh yes, rightly so in context.
> But it sounds to me that when the cricket who posts here expresses her vulnerability she is as likely to be demeaned and blamed as she is to get a helpful response. Maybe this generalises to other parts too. In which case this is unhelpful. Maybe he is more sympathetic to other parts. In which case this is unhelpful because it doesn't generalise back to his treatment of the cricket who posts here - or it generalises back very erratically indeed. Either way...
>
Yeah, sometimes I leave there and feel like I'm nothing because I never get talked about. Right now he only wants to talk to one part. Maybe because right now she's the only one that still wants anything to do with him. But it winds up creating such inner conflict. I complained about that last session. How all my equilibrium was being thrown off. His response was so, you don't think that has to happen in order for things to get better.
> The cricket I see is a wonderfully sensitive and caring individual who is capable of offering caring support and advice to others. She is also capable of expressing herself really well and willing to look at her motivations and the things she contributes to the unhelpful dialectic that has emerged in therapy.
>
Thanks Alex. It's been so long since he's said anything remotely like that to me. Last night in my agony it occurred to me that I keep going to him and hoping for some reassurance, some comfort, some help. Why don't I learn that the well is dry?
> And that seems to me... That her behaviour is more adaptive, more healthy than anything he is modelling to her. More healthy and adaptive than anything he is encouraging from her. He seems to sow seeds of doubt. And to encourage them by discounting much of what she says and criticising or ignoring most of her genuine efforts.
>
> I think he is facing his demons...
> And not faring very well at all...
>
> I reckon...
> He needs more help than she does...
>
> Cricket - you need someone to work with you on elaborating and extending your strengths and abilities. Not someone who undermines you and encourages you to doubt yourself your strengths and your abilities.
>
Thanks Alex. I used to think he wanted to try and do that - elaborate and extend my strengths and abilities. I'm not sure where everthing went wrong. But it definitely did.
>
For now, I think I need to take the advice I gave to you. I do have strengths and abilities and there are things I want to do with my life. I have to stop living for the purpose of making a connection with a person who really just doesn't care. Because even if a miracle happens and he comes back and manages to express some care and give me some help in a few weeks we'll be back in the same pattern again. It's happened so many times.So maybe we'll have little chats too until this part is ready to leave him. He'd probably like that. He'd probably think it was progress.
Posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 16:26:08
In reply to Re: are you okay? (nm), posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 16:16:17
Yes, thanks Alex. Some tears but I am glad you are helping to think this through.
I have to go home now though (i'm at work).
My son needs help with some french homework. Blah, well it's a distraction at least.
I'll post more tomorrow.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 16:39:26
In reply to Re: Worst I've Ever Heard » alexandra_k, posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 16:20:05
> Yeah, sometimes I leave there and feel like I'm nothing because I never get talked about. Right now he only wants to talk to one part.
okay. now alarm bells are MAJORLY ringing for me. i'm guessing... that that part is probably a vulnerable child part that is very attached to him and fairly much adores him. probably... the child part who behaved caringly to your abusers because she didn't access those legitimate feelings of SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT HERE. and so... that attachment is something that is... keeping you going back to him DESPITE all these other feelings that you can access of SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT HERE.
He is discounting you. You and your legitimate feelings. Same as your abusers...
>it winds up creating such inner conflict.
yes. can you see why?
> I complained about that last session. How all my equilibrium was being thrown off. His response was so, you don't think that has to happen in order for things to get better.
lol! and that is where I disagree with the 'expert' line wholeheartedly. though i have to say that 'the expert line' is something that some 'experts' embrace more than others... But either way... HOW DOES DISCOUNTING YOUR LEGITIMATE FEELINGS GET TO BE CONSIDERED A NECESSARY THING TO HAVE TO HAPPEN IN ORDER FOR YOU TO GET BETTER?
He seems to have some very confused ideas indeed as to what is likely to help you.
> > The cricket I see is a wonderfully sensitive and caring individual who is capable of offering caring support and advice to others. She is also capable of expressing herself really well and willing to look at her motivations and the things she contributes to the unhelpful dialectic that has emerged in therapy.
> Thanks Alex.You are welcome.
>It's been so long since he's said anything remotely like that to me. Last night in my agony it occurred to me that I keep going to him and hoping for some reassurance, some comfort, some help. Why don't I learn that the well is dry?
The reason why you don't learn that the well is dry is because he has you on an intermittent reinforcement schedule. SOMETIMES he ackowledges your feelings as legitimate. OTHERTIMES he discounts them. That intermittent schedule... Keeps you going back. Thats the hardest cycle to break. If he was kind like that all the time he would be helping you. If he was unkind like that all the time you would leave in an eyeblink (unless you were willing / able to discount yourself completely). But he has you on this funny schedule... And you allow him to continue on with this by internalising it and doubting yourself never knowing whether your feelings are legitimate or not.
THEY ARE ALL LEGITIMATE
Thats the most important thing he needs to teach you. THEY ARE ALL LEGITIMATE. And if you come to really believe that then you won't need to 'delegate them out' anymore. You won't need to deny or repress them anymore. But he encourages you to deny or repress things. He encourages the needy dependent good child to generalise... But that needy dependent good child is there because she has learned to behave like that in order to obtain affection and love. And you come to believe that... That is what is required.
> For now, I think I need to take the advice I gave to you. I do have strengths and abilities and there are things I want to do with my life.
yes.
> even if a miracle happens and he comes back and manages to express some care and give me some help in a few weeks we'll be back in the same pattern again. It's happened so many times.
yes. its the intermittent thing that keeps you going back... that keeps you dependent on him. when he will only frustrate you and encourage you to supress what he is not willing to face in order to encourage the 'good kid' which is precisely what happened when you were a kid...
its not helping. its maintaining the status quo. continuing your abusive childhood environment. keeping you dependent on him. keeping you doubting yourself and your ability and your feelings and perceptions and thoughts.
> So maybe we'll have little chats too until this part is ready to leave him. He'd probably like that. He'd probably think it was progress.
or maybe that part...
that part and all the others...
would be better off with someone who can appreciat the stuff i've said.i'm no expert...
but this really is what i think.
you deserve better
all of you deserves better
Posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 16:58:02
In reply to Re: are you okay? » alexandra_k, posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 16:26:08
> Yes, thanks Alex. Some tears but I am glad you are helping to think this through.
(((((cricket)))))
sometimes tears can be healing.
i've really seen you struggle with this...
it was hard to know what to make of it...
sometimes he can be helpful...
but othertimes he can be hurtful...self doubt can be ones own biggest enemy
but it is something we learn...and its something other people try and encourage...
because they are insecure about their own
and so they manipulate other peoples
to have them come to depend on them
so they can feel...
better about themselves.you are beautiful
so sensitive
such a caring personbut he has stuff going on...
its not so helpful to you.
its not so helpful to any part of you
Posted by Damos on October 20, 2005, at 18:07:38
In reply to Worst Ever (trigger), posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 12:52:14
Hey Cricket,
Would a hug from me be okay? If it's not just think of it as a really warm smile.
(((((Cricket)))))
Don't think I can add anything to what Alex, Dinah, Shorte and Daisy have said. Honestly, I just can't believe it - and I've read it over and over. I'm really sorry it happened, just so sorry. You deserve so much better than this.
Posted by cricket on October 21, 2005, at 10:13:28
In reply to Re: Worst I've Ever Heard » cricket, posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 16:39:26
> okay. now alarm bells are MAJORLY ringing for me. i'm guessing... that that part is probably a vulnerable child part that is very attached to him and fairly much adores him. probably... the child part who behaved caringly to your abusers because she didn't access those legitimate feelings of SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT HERE. and so... that attachment is something that is... keeping you going back to him DESPITE all these other feelings that you can access of SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT HERE.
>
Yes, Alex. That is it. That is the exact feeling.> He is discounting you. You and your legitimate feelings. Same as your abusers...
> He seems to have some very confused ideas indeed as to what is likely to help you.
>
Perhaps he's just given up and is saying whatever the h*ll he feels like.
> THEY ARE ALL LEGITIMATE
>
> Thats the most important thing he needs to teach you. THEY ARE ALL LEGITIMATE. And if you come to really believe that then you won't need to 'delegate them out' anymore. You won't need to deny or repress them anymore. But he encourages you to deny or repress things. He encourages the needy dependent good child to generalise... But that needy dependent good child is there because she has learned to behave like that in order to obtain affection and love. And you come to believe that... That is what is required.
>
Yes, you make a lot of sense.Thanks Alex. I don't know what I'd do without you. Be more suicidal for sure.
I hope you're okay too. I know we can wind each other up sometimes.
Posted by cricket on October 21, 2005, at 10:14:25
In reply to Re: Worst Ever (trigger) » cricket, posted by Damos on October 20, 2005, at 18:07:38
Hugs are good. Thanks Damos. :-)
Posted by cricket on October 21, 2005, at 10:23:40
In reply to Worst Ever (trigger), posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 12:52:14
Thank you ShortE, Daisy, Dinah, Alex, Damos and everyone else too.
You guys are so smart and understanding.
I am going to back off from here for a few days. Think things through. It's hard for me to post on the weekends anyway.
Thanks again.
Posted by allisonross on October 21, 2005, at 13:25:46
In reply to Worst Ever (trigger), posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 12:52:14
This "man' has no business being a therapist......Unfortunately, just because someone has a license, doesn't mean he is qualified!! He is cruel beyond belief.........you now need therapy from having "therapy." How horrible. I hope you can find the strength to leave him and get help from someone who has the intelligence, sensitivity, etc.....that they are supposed to! hugs
Posted by fairywings on October 21, 2005, at 14:58:24
In reply to Worst Ever (trigger), posted by cricket on October 20, 2005, at 12:52:14
Hi ((((Cricket))),
I'm so sorry that things went so badly. It sounds to me like this guy, for some sick reason, wants you on the hook. You know some Ts are psychopathic, and he'd be smart enough to know who he could manipulate, and who he couldn't. I hope you'll find the little girl and let her post so we can try to reassure her that there's someone out there who will be more caring and have real concern for her need for this T. I can certainly understand the not wanting to let go, but give it a few weeks with someone who is truly wonderful, and hopefully she'll be able to give up her grip on him.
> He said she would have aborted my son. I said no she wouldn't have. He said, "She wouldn't have? Well that doesn't sound like her to me. That's very different from the way I see her."How in the world would this benefit you in any way? This was nothing short of hurtful, harmful, and sick. I can't imagine why any T would ever say something so awful.
>
> Then at the end he said (and he named three of my parts) were modeled after my parents.> He said I have no problem with those parts. You're the one who has a problem. You have a problem with yourself.
> He said Your parents weren't so horrible. They didn't kill you.
I just don't see how this would benefit you in any way. He knows your history, to say your parents "weren't so bad" is just sadistic and manipulative. It's retraumatizing you. He wants you to feel unsure of yourself and dependent on him.
> Actually I am not sure I want to ask you all that question. I mean tell me if you think it's me.
It's not you. He's sick. Your little one will feel bad for awhile, that's to be expected, but once you find someone who treats you with kindness and caring, she will come out of her shell and thrive. I felt that way when I left my ex T, and it hurt till about now. He was nowhere near as mean as yours.
fw
Posted by Tamar on October 21, 2005, at 15:00:09
In reply to Thanks Everyone!, posted by cricket on October 21, 2005, at 10:23:40
Cricket, I just saw this thread and I don't know what to think about what your therapist said to you. I'm astonished. I can only begin to imagine how awful that was to hear.
I'll be thinking of you this weekend.
Tamar
Posted by fairywings on October 21, 2005, at 15:13:10
In reply to Re: Worst I've Ever Heard » cricket, posted by alexandra_k on October 20, 2005, at 16:39:26
>>The reason why you don't learn that the well is dry is because he has you on an intermittent reinforcement schedule. SOMETIMES he ackowledges your feelings as legitimate. OTHERTIMES he discounts them. That intermittent schedule... >>Keeps you going back. Thats the hardest cycle to break. If he was kind like that all the time he would be helping you. If he was unkind like that all the time you would leave in an eyeblink (unless you were willing / able to discount yourself completely). But he has you on this funny schedule... And you allow him to continue on with this by internalising it and doubting yourself never knowing whether your feelings are legitimate or not.
I agree with Alex on everything. When I was a teen my shrink was exactly like this, he preyed on my weaknesses, and it was really hard to leave. Of course I didn't see it at the time because I was so dependent on him. When I told him I'd never be back, he laughed and said, "You'll be back....you'll be back." I never went back, and after years I resented what he did to me. I was much sicker after being with him than before. I hope you can find the strength to pull away and find someone else.
fw
Posted by alexandra_k on October 21, 2005, at 15:52:53
In reply to Re: Worst I've Ever Heard » alexandra_k, posted by fairywings on October 21, 2005, at 15:13:10
But sometimes... Thats not good enough.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 21, 2005, at 16:35:04
In reply to Thanks Everyone!, posted by cricket on October 21, 2005, at 10:23:40
> I am going to back off from here for a few days. Think things through. It's hard for me to post on the weekends anyway.Hope you have a good weekend.
I hope you are doing okay :-)
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.