![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 10derHeart on September 20, 2005, at 16:14:07
He really is. I seem to be obsessing about this fact lately...(?)
He's been out of town, but only for a week, and he scheduled me right before he left, so the vacation has not been much of a problem. 8 days in between vs. 6 days. I think about how important he is all the time, though, just maybe a bit more lately.
Like how I can't imagine stopping therapy - even when the time comes where we both agree I'm *better,* as far as the things we're working on. Which I already am in many ways, but we still have topics to work on - some of which I've hardly even been able to mention after 10 months (weight, horrible body image, etc.)....so plenty of work to do.
Like how the relationship with him, even a mere 55 minutes once a week, is far better than anything else IRL. And I try - I do try. I am far less isolated. I have new friends, and share more with my friends....yet nothing even, ever begins to come close. Not even for a few seconds.
It's just that...it's the most important relationship in my life. It's the highlight of my week. I've told him life often feels like just stuff that gets in the way and takes up time between T. sessions...:-( Not good. Don't recall what he said to that one, but I don't think he was surprised, or terribly concerned.
Does continuing to feel this way mean I'm learning nothing? Getting nowhere?
I crave so much and, so far, am not finding any appropriate ways to get any where near enough attention, affection, compassion, listening, time.....nothing from anyone but him. As a result, I am definitely a bottomless pit with him. He says I'm not, and together we'll find the light so I can see there is a bottom to the neediness pit...
I don't think so. I feel like I'm in the "forever therapy camp," yet that doesn't quite sound right either...
It just hurts terribly if I imagine saying goodbye to him ever. So I don't. He has jokingly said I have 11 years...since he promised his family he'll retire at that point.
Sometimes I wonder....should we maybe talk about the process of (how I *hate* this word!) termination now....months (?) in advance, to spread out the pain and loss more, to get a general framework of how that would take place....I don't know. Sounds creepy.
This post has no true point....sorry. I just wanted to sort of throw the thoughts out here and see if anything resonates...or maybe I'm just whining about the nature of therapy itself.
Posted by Annierose on September 20, 2005, at 16:57:23
In reply to My T. is Too Important To Me, posted by 10derHeart on September 20, 2005, at 16:14:07
10der -
11 years is a long time away. Try not to get ahead of yourself. I just recently had a similar conversation with my T. Termination is not an immediate concern or decision, so try not to anticipate how you might or might not feel years ahead.I do think it's appropriate to feel close with your T. This person holds us emotionally. To me, my T cares about me in a way no one else has before, in a maternal sense (although she is not even 10 years older than I). Interesting enough, the more I share my longings with her, the less needy I have been. It's so darn hard to be so exposed, but babble has helped me bare all (so to speak).
So the more you are able to talk about those hard feelings, the more it will help you in the long term. I go 3x per week, so I don't have to wait so long inbetween sessions. For me, that is so helpful. If an icky topic comes up, it will only be a few days before we can continue.
I think it's a good thing, your feelings for your T. It shows you have the capacity for a long term caring relationship (IMO). And your T has shown you that sharing those feelings is okay, he hasn't freaked out or made you feel uncomfortable. That's great.
Vacations can be hard. We're here for you in the meantime.
Annie
Posted by Damos on September 20, 2005, at 17:35:35
In reply to My T. is Too Important To Me, posted by 10derHeart on September 20, 2005, at 16:14:07
Hey 10der :-)
What Annierose was saying about trying not to get ahead of yourself is right.
From what you and others have said about therapy, it seems to me that what you're feeling is okay. And from what you've said about your T, if he's okay with it and doesn't see anything to worry about then that should be a pretty good guide.
All your posts have a point, a purpose and a value. You truly are a 10derHeart.
(((((10der)))))
Posted by Tamar on September 20, 2005, at 18:43:32
In reply to My T. is Too Important To Me, posted by 10derHeart on September 20, 2005, at 16:14:07
> He really is. I seem to be obsessing about this fact lately...(?)
Or… perhaps your feelings are entirely appropriate for your stage of therapy and in view of whatever you’re working on together.
> He's been out of town, but only for a week, and he scheduled me right before he left, so the vacation has not been much of a problem. 8 days in between vs. 6 days. I think about how important he is all the time, though, just maybe a bit more lately.
Vacations are no fun (for us clients, anyway). Even if it’s only an extra two days, that’s still longer than you’re used to going without him.
> Like how I can't imagine stopping therapy - even when the time comes where we both agree I'm *better,* as far as the things we're working on. Which I already am in many ways, but we still have topics to work on - some of which I've hardly even been able to mention after 10 months (weight, horrible body image, etc.)....so plenty of work to do.
Well, if you’ve been seeing him only ten months and you still have plenty of work to do, is there any need to imagine stopping therapy? It sounds as if you’re not ready to think about that yet.
> Like how the relationship with him, even a mere 55 minutes once a week, is far better than anything else IRL. And I try - I do try. I am far less isolated. I have new friends, and share more with my friends....yet nothing even, ever begins to come close. Not even for a few seconds.I think the closeness of the relationship is part of the deal. And it’s great that you’re trying hard and that you’re less isolated. But maybe at this stage it’s important to you to feel that your relationship with him is the most important relationship in your life. It’s not unusual (I know I’ve been there!). I’m sure it’s giving you something you need at the moment.
> It's just that...it's the most important relationship in my life. It's the highlight of my week. I've told him life often feels like just stuff that gets in the way and takes up time between T. sessions...:-( Not good. Don't recall what he said to that one, but I don't think he was surprised, or terribly concerned.
Well, perhaps he’s not concerned because it’s completely normal. I imagine it’s a good thing in some ways: it probably means that you’re committed to the process of therapy and that you’re working hard on some very important issues.
> Does continuing to feel this way mean I'm learning nothing? Getting nowhere?
Quite the opposite, I would say. I think it means you’re doing everything you need to do and making good progress.
> I crave so much and, so far, am not finding any appropriate ways to get any where near enough attention, affection, compassion, listening, time.....nothing from anyone but him. As a result, I am definitely a bottomless pit with him. He says I'm not, and together we'll find the light so I can see there is a bottom to the neediness pit...
It takes time. Take all the time you need.
> I don't think so. I feel like I'm in the "forever therapy camp," yet that doesn't quite sound right either...
Well, if you are in the ‘forever therapy camp’, there’s nothing wrong with that. And if you aren’t in that camp, perhaps you just can’t imagine life without therapy at the moment. And why should you? You say you still have things to work on, so perhaps you’re not ready to think of life without therapy.
> It just hurts terribly if I imagine saying goodbye to him ever. So I don't.
I think your plan of not imagining it makes perfect sense. Of course it hurts. But unless you have a reason to say goodbye (which you don’t at the moment) you might be hurting unnecessarily.
> He has jokingly said I have 11 years...since he promised his family he'll retire at that point.
Ah, I bet you could haggle for 12 or 13. I bet he loves his job – of course he does, because he gets to work with you!
> Sometimes I wonder....should we maybe talk about the process of (how I *hate* this word!) termination now....months (?) in advance, to spread out the pain and loss more, to get a general framework of how that would take place....I don't know. Sounds creepy.No! No, no, no, no, no, no, no! (Well, OK, maybe I shouldn’t be so emphatic. Sorry.) I do think it’s important to talk about termination in advance. But I also think that discussion should come when you’re ready to begin to think about ending therapy. If there are issues you’ve barely touched on, I don’t think you’re likely to be at that point. You will know when you’re ready. There’s no need to force it.
> This post has no true point....sorry. I just wanted to sort of throw the thoughts out here and see if anything resonates...or maybe I'm just whining about the nature of therapy itself.
I don’t think you’ve *ever* made a pointless post! It’s true that the nature of therapy involves pain. And I can imagine that your thoughts are turning to termination when he has symbolically abandoned you by going on vacation. But he will come back. And he will be there for you. And I’m sure you’re in his thoughts.
(((((10derHeart)))))
I hope you’re feeling better soon.
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on September 20, 2005, at 19:26:25
In reply to My T. is Too Important To Me, posted by 10derHeart on September 20, 2005, at 16:14:07
Only eleven years? :-O
I'm only half joking. With what's going on with me right now, I sort of think it is possible to get too attached to a therapist. I want to move except for him. I'm driving four hours and spending $45 in gas to see him, even though he sort of deserted me by living so far away.
Yet...
It is nice that he seems as committed as I am to keeping the relationship going. It is nice that he at least for a minute believed that the relationship was as important to him as it was to me. It was nice (?!!!) that when he told me that he was taking a four week assignment that he simultaneously tried to make sure he had my attention to see that I heard that he was still able to see me once a week, and we could have double sessions that once, and phone sessions or email sessions. And that he put his arm around me and held tight as I had strong hysterics.
I don't know. Maybe those are all good reasons why it is possible for a therapist to be too important to us. But it doesn't really feel that way. Ok, it does, but that's not all it feels.
That's as clear as mud, isn't it?
(I've never seen you make a pointless post. And this one in particular has a lot of importance.)
Posted by fairywings on September 20, 2005, at 19:32:42
In reply to My T. is Too Important To Me, posted by 10derHeart on September 20, 2005, at 16:14:07
I'm with everyone else 10der, you've had a lifetime to build these feelings, and at least 11 years to feel better. I'd relax and enjoy the relationship. The hard part, like you said,is the time in between appts. and vacation.
fw
Posted by messadivoce on September 20, 2005, at 20:15:05
In reply to My T. is Too Important To Me, posted by 10derHeart on September 20, 2005, at 16:14:07
Yikes! You're in the middle of a lot of tought stuff. Termination must seem overwhelmingly terrible, and I don't blame you. When you get to a point of vulnerability, and to where you can discuss the things that have been really hurting, your T becomes a lifeline. Been there.
You are not ready to terminate, obviously, and it sounds like he IS willing to take 11 more years with you--if that's what it takes. That's so wonderful. So please don't worry about termination right now. At this time it is bound to cause panic.
And of course, after experiencing such intense closeness with another person, all other relationships are going to pale in comparison...at least for awhile...but the point of having that closeness with someone in a therapy context is so that you can have a deeper quality in your relationships later down the line, no?
And let me tell you--there is NOTHING like it, even if you have a best friend, even if you get married. It cannot be recreated. That is part of the loss I am learning to deal with. It's the rest of therapy that makes up for this loss--I am talking about the tools your T gives you to live, and yes, to thrive.
I would encourage you to talk about termination--not as a reality thing that will happen "soon" but as something that will happen someday. And talk about everything else that's bothering you too, because if all that is waded through, when the day comes to say goodbye, 11 months or 11 years down the line, you will be ready.
And I would encourage you to ask...why you are afraid to lose him, even 11 years from now. Did you lose someone before?
There is meaning behind it, I am sure. There is a reason why he means so much to you. And why wouldn't he? He is kind, compassionate, caring and wise. And he fills a need that you haven't had filled before.
I don't want to be presumptuous. I feel like I know you well. I am sorry it gives you pain to think about termination.
Just don't run ahead of yourself.
(((10der)))
Posted by 10derHeart on September 20, 2005, at 23:05:14
In reply to Re: My T. is Too Important To Me » 10derHeart, posted by messadivoce on September 20, 2005, at 20:15:05
You Babblers....
are all so smart and wise and kind and thoughtful.
Takes my breath away almost. It's an honor to know you.
This post wasn't terribly deep, or unique, same feelings many have expressed before, over and over, yet...you all answer as if it's the only post in the world, the most important post....it really makes me feel special.
Truth be told, I haven't initiated a post here for a loooong time. I somehow became scared to post (bad voice in head says, 'it'll sound stupid, who cares, your therapy is fine, no whining, don't bother people, yes, there IS a hierarchy of suffering, and yours is flea-sized, you'll bore them.....). So I decided I *had* to do it, to silence the doubts...now I feel better :-)
I just got home and I'm too tired to do these posts justice tonight. Individual replies
tomorrow, absolutely..... (((my babble friends)))
Posted by happyflower on September 21, 2005, at 0:26:07
In reply to My T. is Too Important To Me, posted by 10derHeart on September 20, 2005, at 16:14:07
Hey Tender! I think sometimes, at least for me, when I feel like I am getting too close, I want to back away from someone, even if it is a good thing. It is like I fear I will get rejected by someone who starts to mean a lot to me. It is easy for me to reject that person before they reject me.
I am trying to overcome this, it is hard to trust people sometimes.
My T has shown me I can trust him, and he won't dump me if I become too clingy. It took me a long time to realize this and believe in him. Now that I trust him, I feel I can slowly become less attached to him. Which I am trying to do lately and so far I feel fine with it. I even cancelled my next session next week, for one it is getting very expensive, and I want to prove it to myself that I don't "need" him as much as I once did as a therapist. He doesn't know why I cancelled. I told him that I will call to reschedule, but I plan to hold out as long as I can.
Well anyways, I know I am rambling on, but at one time he meant way too much to me, but now those feelings are slowly lessening, but on my own time frame. He will always be special to me, but I feel maybe in a more realistic way. I don't know if this makes sense to anyone, but it is how I feel at least right now. (((((B2)))))
Posted by All Done on September 21, 2005, at 2:16:14
In reply to My T. is Too Important To Me, posted by 10derHeart on September 20, 2005, at 16:14:07
Hi, 10derHeart.
You're wondering if anything in your thoughts resonataes with anyone. I have to tell you that pretty much *everything* resonates with me. Sometimes I feel pretty obsessive in my thinking about my T or aspects of my relationship with him, but I've learned that it's okay and even important to talk about all of it. So, some of my sessions have focused on termination even though *I* have no intentions of terminating at this point...or ever? ;) I think he tries to give me some reassurance that it doesn't have to happen now or maybe not even soon. He asked me when I thought it would be okay. If memory serves me correctly, I said something about 40 years (we're both in our early thirties, so I've got the poor guy working past retirement) and he let me go with that. For some reason, I don't quite believe I'll be seeing him that long, though. Anyway, I digress. He seems to learn a lot about me when I share my feelings about what termination will "look like" someday. Most of the time, I feel like I'm just whining that I don't want to lose him, but apparently, that's not the case.
I've also shared how painful it is to go from one session to the next (six days) without seeing him. I believe he was kind of surprised when I told him the intense pain I feel sometimes because I'm not with him. After I shared that little tidbit, the pain subsided some for a while, but I've felt my attachment to him grow even stronger, if that makes any sense at all. Don't get me wrong, though, I still have some pretty intense feelings during the week. I'm trying right now to figure out how to deal with them and it's hard :(.
I'm not sure if you ever feel this way, but sometimes I think about the topics I hesitate to bring up (body image is a tough one for me, too) and I wonder if I'm sort of keeping those to myself to ensure we'll always have something to talk about. Then, you know, I've got him for sure. He can *never* terminate me (insert evil laugh here). I have to push myself really hard to talk about some things because of that. Come to think of it, I should probably share with him my "logic" behind hesitating to share some stuff with him.
Hmm, if you read and understand that last sentence, let me say I'm proud of you for reading this far and still being able to understand my ramblings. I guess I have a lot to say on the topic. I understand completely where you're coming from and I think it's okay to share your feelings about termination even if you aren't anywhere near terminating, and it's okay and probabaly good to feel the attachment you feel to him. It must be serving a good purpose and I'm glad you have a T willing to work with you to figure it all out.
Thanks for your post!
Laurie
Posted by Dinah on September 21, 2005, at 5:50:08
In reply to Re: My T. is Too Important To Me » 10derHeart, posted by All Done on September 21, 2005, at 2:16:14
I think body image is a tough thing to discuss with a male therapist, maybe. I can talk about the most embarassingly detailed sexual topics without a blush. But it's hard to talk to a male about how fat I feel, how unattractive. I talk to him sometimes about my feelings about photos of myself, but always in the context of how I look like my mother.
I don't know why that is. He knows I'm fat, and that I don't take enough care with my grooming. He's commented on it from time to time. But it's a hard topic to discuss with a man, I think. Maybe there's some fear he'll agree, or that worse still he'll disagree. I don't really want him to look at me in that way.
Posted by 10derHeart on September 21, 2005, at 12:16:19
In reply to Re: My T. is Too Important To Me » 10derHeart, posted by Annierose on September 20, 2005, at 16:57:23
> 11 years is a long time away. Try not to get ahead of yourself. I just recently had a similar conversation with my T. Termination is not an immediate concern or decision, so try not to anticipate how you might or might not feel years ahead.
Yes, but I have no desire to see him for years. Insurance wouldn't keep paying, I can't imagine, and besides...I don't know, I just need/want that feeling of having progressed, mastered certain things...you're right, though, when I'm ready, perhaps it won't feel nearly as bad as I imagine now, when I'm not. Duh...thanks for pointing that out.
> I do think it's appropriate to feel close with your T. This person holds us emotionally. To me, my T cares about me in a way no one else has before, in a maternal sense (although she is not even 10 years older than I). Interesting enough, the more I share my longings with her, the less needy I have been.I agree totally. Don't mind being close, it's just that lately, all I see is that since I'm not married or dating, have no real best, best friend (not that I confide in)T. is *THE* central relatinship in my life. The fact itself scares me.
I hope as I let bits more out to him and nothing bad happens, maybe I'll be less needy, too. Seems like the opposite might happen, though.
> I go 3x per week, so I don't have to wait so long inbetween sessions. For me, that is so helpful. If an icky topic comes up, it will only be a few days before we can continue.
Gosh, I envy that. Impossible in my financial situation now. Maybe someday an increase to 2X could happen, ot even 6x a month vs. 4x (Dinah suggested this once)...every little bit helps? We do lose things in those 6 days...and get sidetracked.
> I think it's a good thing, your feelings for your T. It shows you have the capacity for a long term caring relationship (IMO). And your T has shown you that sharing those feelings is okay, he hasn't freaked out or made you feel uncomfortable. That's great.You're right. I'm just at a place now where it feels like the ONLY L/T relationship will be with my T. This is the 2nd T. I've gotten attached to, so I'm starting to see myself as some kind of "serial T-lover" who lives only for that feeling and is alone, otherwise. That's creepy and quite sad.
> Vacations can be hard. We're here for you in the meantime.
He's back. Saw him today. There was a lot to update, and I "let him" tell me about parts of his vacation, which was fun. Nothing heavy today, only started tears at the end, 'cause didn't want session to be up. He said, "you can email me every day, if you need to. It's okay." He seems to mean this, but I just can't believe it or do it...
Thanks, Annie, you are lovely for taking the time with me.
((Annie))
Posted by 10derHeart on September 21, 2005, at 12:24:21
In reply to Re: My T. is Too Important To Me » 10derHeart, posted by Damos on September 20, 2005, at 17:35:35
Thanks, Damos, for your always-steady support.
I try to rely on T.'s sense of what's okay, yet I often feel like he doesn't fully get it, or get me. In the sense, he doesn't appreciate the depth of things, the extent to which I *use* the relationship with him to try to fulfill all sorts of needs. Relating to my T. and my Babble friends are it in my life, really. I have these other woman friends, but it stays superficial, and I can't see that changing.
I mean, of course there's my daughter, but I protect her from TONS of stuff that I think is way too disturbing...
I don't know. Probably I'm overreacting, seeing myself too sharply through the "lens" of 'oh, how pathetic this woman (me) is at this point in life..." You know the drill...lots of shoulds, still.
Talking about it here, though confusing still, makes it less so.
Posted by 10derHeart on September 21, 2005, at 12:48:53
In reply to Re: My T. is Too Important To Me » 10derHeart, posted by Tamar on September 20, 2005, at 18:43:32
> Or… perhaps your feelings are entirely appropriate for your stage of therapy and in view of whatever you’re working on together.
You're likely completely right. I seem to have these intternal measures and time standards,though....like 10 months should be long enough for....what? Something. To see more progress? To be attached, but not *too* attached?
To be finally translating some of the relationship skills from the therapy roo to others? I do - but only a tiny, little bit, and I'm impatient...>
> Vacations are no fun (for us clients, anyway). Even if it’s only an extra two days, that’s still longer than you’re used to going without him.True. I just realized I emailed him exactly on the 6th day. Internal therapy clock?
> Well, if you’ve been seeing him only ten months and you still have plenty of work to do, is there any need to imagine stopping therapy? It sounds as if you’re not ready to think about that yet.
No. I guess....I'm trying to find some magic way to lessen what I imagine will be the future pain by integrating the topic into sessions sometimes now....get accustomed to it....? But that may be a bad idea. Very distracting from the here and now, I suppose. Maybe I'll ask him this question.
> I think the closeness of the relationship is part of the deal. And it’s great that you’re trying hard and that you’re less isolated. But maybe at this stage it’s important to you to feel that your relationship with him is the most important relationship in your life. It’s not unusual (I know I’ve been there!). I’m sure it’s giving you something you need at the moment.Could be - thanks for laying it out so clearly. Wonder why I can't accept that it might be fine right now? That internal clock again...tick-tock, it's taking too long, not growing, not changing on the "right" schedule....should, should, should.
> Well, perhaps he’s not concerned because it’s completely normal. I imagine it’s a good thing in some ways: it probably means that you’re committed to the process of therapy and that you’re working hard on some very important issues.
I am very committed. There's no doubt there. Funny how being that way - which is essential - is also the very state in which I'm the most scared all the time....necessary suffering, I usually call it, and that helps make it understandable - a little.
> Quite the opposite, I would say. I think it means you’re doing everything you need to do and making good progress.But I've been in therapy with various T's since March 2002. I can get to various trust levels and openess with them...and then...? What? I see little connection to IRL people sometimes. I understand them better, I understand my reactions to them more easily, I'm more empathetic - so they're getting more *from* me and that's not satisfying...gee, that sounds nice, doesn't it? That's not enough - I want....something more. None of them would I ever risk revealing what I have to my T. It's confusing to see how it'll ever be different.
> Ah, I bet you could haggle for 12 or 13. I bet he loves his job – of course he does, because he gets to work with you!
:-) Awww...
> No! No, no, no, no, no, no, no! (Well, OK, maybe I shouldn’t be so emphatic. Sorry.) I do think it’s important to talk about termination in advance. But I also think that discussion should come when you’re ready to begin to think about ending therapy. If there are issues you’ve barely touched on, I don’t think you’re likely to be at that point. You will know when you’re ready. There’s no need to force it.
Yeah, Annierose made a similar point. I'm beginning to get it, maybe.
> I don’t think you’ve *ever* made a pointless post!Wow..thanks!
>It’s true that the nature of therapy involves pain. And I can imagine that your thoughts are turning to termination when he has symbolically abandoned you by going on vacation. But he will come back. And he will be there for you. And I’m sure you’re in his thoughts.
Perhaps. That connection is obvious...but I really didn't stress too much. Knew a lot about where he was going and all. But unconsciously...it could be...this is the first trip where he wasn't avaliable by email, and we email a lot between sessions.
You're right...he's back and safe, And he brought me a little souveneir (sp.!) from a place he knows I also want to visit one day. Very sweet.
> (((((10derHeart)))))
>
> I hope you’re feeling better soon.I'm okay. Just worried about doing therapy *wrong* all the time. Like I'm the only one, right...? ;-)
Your posts are so grounding and sensible, while feeling the actual feelings, too. Thanks so much for that - it helps!
Posted by 10derHeart on September 21, 2005, at 15:30:34
In reply to Re: My T. is Too Important To Me » 10derHeart, posted by Dinah on September 20, 2005, at 19:26:25
> Only eleven years? :-O
:-) I know, I was thinking of you when I wrote about that. Actually, the day he said it was nice, I remember. Not the exact context (therapy amnesia, you know), but I recall...it was yet another discussion about my fear of him disappearing, growing to hate or be bored with me, thinking I was too clingy...blah, blah...when he just said, "well, you have eleven years. I promised my family I'd retire then." Nice, because I know I was distressed and thinking somehow he was keeping track of how long I'd been coming, and that it was too long but he was too nice to say so....uhhh..apparently not.
> I'm only half joking. With what's going on with me right now, I sort of think it is possible to get too attached to a therapist. I want to move except for him. I'm driving four hours and spending $45 in gas to see him, even though he sort of deserted me by living so far away.You know, I can see why, with your history and the present mess. I really can. I can imagine me doing the same. We make choices, and others may not get it, but for us they may work.
>
> Yet...
>
> It is nice that he seems as committed as I am to keeping the relationship going. It is nice that he at least for a minute believed that the relationship was as important to him as it was to me. It was nice (?!!!) that when he told me that he was taking a four week assignment that he simultaneously tried to make sure he had my attention to see that I heard that he was still able to see me once a week, and we could have double sessions that once, and phone sessions or email sessions. And that he put his arm around me and held tight as I had strong hysterics.This was nice. Great, in fact. I'm sorry you were in such a state - it must have felt like h*ll, even when you were safe with him :-( I know sitting by you and putting an arm around you is not a routine part of your sessions. I think it was so the human, right, loving thing to do. I'm sure he cares about you, and for you, more than you really will ever quite know.
> I don't know. Maybe those are all good reasons why it is possible for a therapist to be too important to us. But it doesn't really feel that way. Ok, it does, but that's not all it feels.
>
> That's as clear as mud, isn't it?Actually, it's plenty clear enough. Especially when you say that's not all it feels. Smetimes we forget all the parts, focusing in on only one facet during stress or crisis. It's like...a narrow view through one window into a house (or a complex relationship) is never enough. Only if we start peering through all the windows, and looking into the doors, down the chimney, on the roof, and in the basement, then maybe we see all the levels, the features, the spaces, the strong and weak points that make it *our* house, that we love and are comfortable in. Your T. is that for you, I think. Gosh....wonder if that metaphor popped out from you writing about both the uncertain condition of you actual house, and his home purchase...? I didn't plan that...{shivers}
>
> (I've never seen you make a pointless post. And this one in particular has a lot of importance.)Thanks, Dinah. You and Tamar are conspiring together to make me feel my posts aren't as empty and superficial as they seem to me. (pssst...it's starting to work, your conspiracy)
It probaby does. I'm thinking a lot about - why now? Why did I say this just now when I've thought this way for a while...?
Posted by rabidreader on September 21, 2005, at 16:13:27
In reply to Re: My T. is Too Important To Me » 10derHeart, posted by All Done on September 21, 2005, at 2:16:14
Dearest 10der, I am struggling with this too so don't think you are alone, or that this post doesn't matter! I was glad to find this post so I knw that I'm not alone!
I have had two terminations in the last few months...I had two therapists and they both had to leave. (One I was in love with, but that's another story.) I have felt so abandoned and sad, and then angry. I've been trying to think positively about attaching to therapists, but it's hard and very scary. I feel like I want to throw walls up right now. But at the same time, my therapy is the highlight of my week also. If I don't get to talk about everything I want to, or if it seems to go by too quickly, or if something just isn't quite right with the session...it all makes me feel worse about those six days in between.
I have no solution, but just want to let you know that I have an understanding about this subject. I know it hurts to not have your therapist there every day. It feels lonely, it feels painful, it feels like the only thing real that happens is in that office.
What I'm glad to hear is that you're making progrss with friendships. I am, too. It's just slow as molassis, in my opinion, whereas with the therapist it's easier to let down your guard. But I'm going to keep trying, and I hope you do, too. The therapy is supposed to help us with the Life Outside, those Six Days. Maybe if we can improve those six days, and still have the therapy until we're ready to leave, our lives will feel more worthwhile.
Many hugs--here's six, one for each of those therapy-less days!!
((((((10der))))))
Posted by gardenergirl on September 21, 2005, at 23:57:52
In reply to Re: My T. is Too Important To Me » Damos, posted by 10derHeart on September 21, 2005, at 12:24:21
> In the sense, he doesn't appreciate the depth of things, the extent to which I *use* the relationship with him to try to fulfill all sorts of needs.
You know, I don't know that my T "got this" with me, either. I wonder if it's a defense for the T in order to avoid dealing with how that might feel for them to mean so much? Just speculating.
>Relating to my T. and my Babble friends are it in my life, really. I have these other woman friends, but it stays superficial, and I can't see that changing.
I'm glad you're here. And I think this medium sort of allows for more intimacy in posting because it's not face to face and it's fairly anonymous.
>
> I don't know. Probably I'm overreacting, seeing myself too sharply through the "lens" of 'oh, how pathetic this woman (me) is at this point in life..." You know the drill...lots of shoulds, still.Oh my. I've been using that word, "pathetic" lately, too. It comes from that part of me that's just so critical and judgmental. A part of me that just doesn't "get" the rest of me. It often sounds like my father's voice, even though I doubt he ever actually said that to me.
And as a comfort, I have never used that word about any of the clients I've had. So you are right that it's a lens we put on that obscures things. And that "should" word....oooh, don't get me started on that! :)
>
> Talking about it here, though confusing still, makes it less so.I'm glad. Good thread.
gg
Posted by 10derHeart on September 22, 2005, at 12:48:57
In reply to Re: My T. is Too Important To Me » 10derHeart, posted by fairywings on September 20, 2005, at 19:32:42
> I'm with everyone else 10der, you've had a lifetime to build these feelings, and at least 11 years to feel better. I'd relax and enjoy the relationship. The hard part, like you said,is the time in between appts. and vacation.
That's true, about the lifetime thing. Sometimes it's easy to forget...and to want so many things to make sense *now* and for that to lead to fixing something *now*...but I guess that's just not possible. But I know for me, it's very easy to just cruise along, relaxing and enjoying the relationship as you said (nothing inherently wrong with that, but...)and wake up one day, say after, 3 months, 6 months, 1 year of therapy having had a lot of relief and comfort, but, still staying stuck in so many ways...does that make sense? I try to explain this sensation to my T., so he knows I want to be pushed *most* of the time. He's very nondirective and will agree to working about as much or as little as I want....and that "hands-off" attitude - though gentle and safe - can sabotage me sometimes, to where we're getting little done.
Vacations haven't been bad. He's taken 2 short ones before this, but still answered emails, and made a point of telling me to email him as much as I want. So, I've never had to experience the aloneness I went through all the time w/prior T., and I don't get feeling as badly as most anyone on these boards, because I know he'll answer any email, even when he's at home...I am so blessed. Yet, I think all this contact increases attachment and/or dependence, and it's scarier still....around in a circle I go...:-)
thanks, fw - hope you talk to your T. soon and tell him how upset you've been and feel better! (((fw)))
Posted by 10derHeart on September 22, 2005, at 13:48:19
In reply to Re: My T. is Too Important To Me, posted by Dinah on September 21, 2005, at 5:50:08
> I think body image is a tough thing to discuss with a male therapist, maybe.
I always asumed this, too. Main reason I wanted a female after my last T. left, but the first one I worked with supposedly to support me during that painful time was a totally nasty "B."...and shortly thereafter, old T. recommended my T. now, and he's turned out to be so awesome in so many ways....
So, I'm thinking I have to give this a shot. The thing is, I'm conflicted and will have to first try to articulate this conflict with him, I think. Which sometimes I think I can do, and other times I think, "no way! I can never say these things!"
The thing is, frankly, my T. is fat, too. He knows it, and seems quite open about it. I know it, but like any decent person, I'm not going to go too far in agreeing with him when he makes certain remarks. My thought is *because* he has the same problem right now, and he's revealed being overweight was a problem in his school years and it felt bad (not for me - I was trim and an athlete of sorts....seems like another lifetime), it's possible this will be to my advantage. I mean, I know theorectically a T. doesn't actually have to have lived a particular problem to be empathetic toward me, or to offer help. But it's different with this eating thing, for me. To try to get a man or woman who has *never* had ANY food or weight issues to really understand...I'm skeptical. I know this may be narrow-minded of me. {shrug}
I'm hoping, from hints he's dropped, and hints I've dropped (too scared to go any further) that just maybe we can talk about this. Men still have a different experience in society...but hey, he has a wife, and from some pics I've seen, she also has this issue. Perhaps he can understand...just enough. Perhaps he ONLY has to receive and deal with the negative, disgusted feelings, no matter what the root cause, and I have confidence he can do that. I dunno - this is something I tiptoe around and am ready to put up a 10-ft. high brick wall at a moment's notice...:-(
The conflict is - couldn't his own inability to lose any weight or stick to exercise (he's said as much) hinder everything? Even if he tried hard not to let it? Can he keep his own stuff out of out therapy? Seems it would be so hard. Not to mention, how do I start...me who loves to be blunt in order to get past fear and embarrassment...???
"I've decided to try and talk about my feelings with this weight issue, since you're fat, too, maybe you can understand."
"I'm afraid since you've made it pretty clear you can't figure out how to lose any weight, you'll just ultimately not be able to handle this problem, and even (inadvertently) enable me to stay as I am..."
Argggh! None of these sound okay. It's such a hurtful, raw topic for me, maybe I'm only projecting...but he's human, and I can't just blurt out mean stuff...
>I can talk about the most embarassingly detailed sexual topics without a blush.
This rarely comes up, but I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be too bad for me, either. Body image and weight seem far *more* personal than sex to me. Sounds strange to write, but it's how I feel.
>But it's a hard topic to discuss with a man, I think. Maybe there's some fear he'll agree, or that worse still he'll disagree. I don't really want him to look at me in that way.Well, I don't care if my T. agrees - to a point, I suppose. I think I want some man, some where, some time, to say it doesn't matter. But then again, it does matter. It's unhealthy and....nevermind. Can't go there. It's such a minefield. If he disagrees too much, or with the wrong words, I'm sure to snap at him about dishonesty, etc. If he agrees too much, I'll likely dissolve in tears, being convinced he sees me looking as gross and ugly and I see myself :-(
(I already told him I wish I could just bring my head to therapy, so he wouldn't have to be subjected to my body...he only looked sad and shook his head....)Never really thought about the idea of it meaning he was looking at me "that way," assuming you mean as a man might look at a woman's body, which I get for your relationship (therapist-mommy!)
Hmmm...I guess I'm assuming he can objectively see obesity - or not see it (blind?!?) - or look past it as I do with him and everyone else I know - without tht potential sexual element being present...The whole topic makes me feel ill. Thanks for writing about it, though, and getting me thinking. Because there's really no avoiding it for much longer, I can feel things just bubbling to the surface....
Posted by 10derHeart on September 22, 2005, at 15:36:01
In reply to Re: My T. is Too Important To Me » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on September 22, 2005, at 13:48:19
Posted by 10derHeart on September 22, 2005, at 15:42:51
In reply to sorry for double post above, PC keeps freezing up (nm), posted by 10derHeart on September 22, 2005, at 15:36:01
"I already told him I wish I could just bring my head to therapy...
LOL. Quite an image when I reread this sentence I wrote to Dinah :-)
Am I floating in, suspended in midair during the session?
Or is it just like those (trick) tables where you get underneath and it's just your head on the table top, talking away....that's what I need! Except then I'd probably switch to another thing to be self-conscious about...hair, neck, too many freckles from the sun, something....
Trying to keep my sense of humor....much needed around this yucky body stuff.
Posted by daisym on September 22, 2005, at 23:21:41
In reply to LOL......a talking head, posted by 10derHeart on September 22, 2005, at 15:42:51
I love the image of a floating head.
Tender, perhaps you can start with how different people protect themselves, often by creating more personal space with a larger body. I've done a lot of reading on trauma (of course) and weight is often one of the "symptoms" talked about. One of the theories is that it is a form of protection, unintentionally trying to keep people away from your wounded small self inside. I think we've all heard the self-esteem speeches up the wazoo but the idea of creating a barrier for myself resonates with me.
I agree with you about it being a tough topic to talk about in therapy. I don't want to call attention to my flaws (like he can't see them) and I usually cover myself up with the couch pillows.
I'm not sure what to say to you about your attachment. I'm the poster child for this, and I worry about it all the time. The few times I have relaxed and accepted it, it feels great. I just can't let myself have it. But I agree that talking about it has helped it a great deal. I hope you find peace around this soon.
Posted by 10derHeart on September 23, 2005, at 0:16:45
In reply to Re: My T. is Too Important To Me » 10derHeart, posted by messadivoce on September 20, 2005, at 20:15:05
> Yikes! You're in the middle of a lot of tought stuff. Termination must seem overwhelmingly terrible, and I don't blame you. When you get to a point of vulnerability, and to where you can discuss the things that have been really hurting, your T becomes a lifeline. Been there.
I dunno. Sometimes I think it's all silly and minor. Like why don't I just get over it. Other times, I see, as my T. likes to refer to it, this wound somewhere, or several of them in me, that neither of us quite understand, where there's a "broken piece" (his words again). He says he wants to find it, to peel back some layers...I dunno. Yeah, he feels like a lifeline mostly, and there's where I get all wrapped up in whether or not that's okay any more...
> You are not ready to terminate, obviously, and it sounds like he IS willing to take 11 more years with you--if that's what it takes. That's so wonderful. So please don't worry about termination right now. At this time it is bound to cause panic.
No, I'm not. Yes, it does feel pretty awful if I imagine it. Maybe not panic, but a sense of wanting to give up on the hard stuff if anything happens to him....like I just won't go through trying to find another relationship like this again...I know you know *all* about that :-(
> And of course, after experiencing such intense closeness with another person, all other relationships are going to pale in comparison...at least for awhile...but the point of having that closeness with someone in a therapy context is so that you can have a deeper quality in your relationships later down the line, no?
"On paper,", yup, that's supposed to be the point. I just can't see it materializing. There's the way I can be with him, and the way I can be with everyone else. You know I learned my ex-T was completely solid, trustworthy, steady and genuine. Even now, when there is no need, he still is. He's morphed into a quasi-friend with boundaries (whatever that means!) yet still, that is *becasue* he was my T., so it doesn't prove anything. The experience of being trated so kindly and well hasn't translated to any people IRL, not that I can think of. So, why will it change with this T.? I can't keep on with this forever, this practicing closeness in the hope I will get a tiny fraction IRL....I find it an incredibly confusing concept.
> And let me tell you--there is NOTHING like it, even if you have a best friend, even if you get married. It cannot be recreated. That is part of the loss I am learning to deal with. It's the rest of therapy that makes up for this loss--I am talking about the tools your T gives you to live, and yes, to thrive.
If you say so. I know I'm supposed to believe this. I thought I did. But lately I just see me endlessly craving, demanding, insisting on my "fixes" of therapy sessions forever, and living and thriving off that alone.
> I would encourage you to talk about termination--not as a reality thing that will happen "soon" but as something that will happen someday. And talk about everything else that's bothering you too, because if all that is waded through, when the day comes to say goodbye, 11 months or 11 years down the line, you will be ready.That is a wise reminder. I try and mostly succeed in talking about most things. I'm wavering on even touching the termination topic now or not. On one hand, seems too upsetting to the process at hand. OTOH, seems it could lead to a deeper talk about loss, how and why he's getting more and more important to me - all that scary stuff. Hmm...
>
> And I would encourage you to ask...why you are afraid to lose him, even 11 years from now. Did you lose someone before?Ahh...one of my very special cans of worms. On a certain day, if you ask me this, you will get the, "well, yeah, but probably way less than most people have lost. No big deal, no reason for me to be so fixated on it, so intense about it, it's a part of life, after all." Then, on another day, you might get the litany of losses I think I've suffered - and how they've changed me profoundly and how now I partly hate myself, because there just must be something inherently defective about me as a person if by age 46 I am yet - still - this alone in life.....oh, don't get me started. This would have to be a separate post...yikes :-(
> There is meaning behind it, I am sure. There is a reason why he means so much to you. And why wouldn't he? He is kind, compassionate, caring and wise. And he fills a need that you haven't had filled before.
Yes. Yes. He can be all that. Yet, it's never enough. Bottomless pit. Talk to me more, care more, notice when I'm sad more often, say more nice things, ask me if I'm okay all the time, offer to shake my hand, take care of me, hug me some day, never leave, never ever, ever do that, love me best of all your clients....see? It really has no end in sight....so I now tend to clamp down on all of it more. ouch.
> I don't want to be presumptuous. I feel like I know you well. I am sorry it gives you pain to think about termination.
I don't think you know how to be presumptuous, Voce. You do know me way better than most people. An IRL friend like you would be a blessing straight from God. I'll be okay. Maybe I'm just taking a big, deep breath and gathering strength from Babble before I go back into the therapy-fight. I know it really is worth it, and I really do have to find a way to be okay with leaning on him big time and appreciating him being so important. He's a gift, as are you and all wonderful Babblers. Thanks for all your time writing to me. ((Voce))
Posted by 10derHeart on September 23, 2005, at 11:06:51
In reply to Re: My T. is Too Important To Me, posted by happyflower on September 21, 2005, at 0:26:07
> Hey Tender! I think sometimes, at least for me, when I feel like I am getting too close, I want to back away from someone, even if it is a good thing. It is like I fear I will get rejected by someone who starts to mean a lot to me. It is easy for me to reject that person before they reject me.
Yeah, I never thought I was one to do this. I've always pulled closer to people, to do anything to keep them from leaving me, physically or emotionally. (Often not a healthy thing to do either) But maybe on some level I'm doing this without totally realizing it.
> I am trying to overcome this, it is hard to trust people sometimes.
> My T has shown me I can trust him, and he won't dump me if I become too clingy. It took me a long time to realize this and believe in him. Now that I trust him, I feel I can slowly become less attached to him. Which I am trying to do lately and so far I feel fine with it. I even cancelled my next session next week, for one it is getting very expensive, and I want to prove it to myself that I don't "need" him as much as I once did as a therapist. He doesn't know why I cancelled. I told him that I will call to reschedule, but I plan to hold out as long as I can.I think that sounds great for you, because that's the right place for you to be right now. Except I worry about the "proving to myself" part, but maybe that's just me not understanding how that would feel. I worry about the need, but I have no desire to stop it really. Because as I trust my T. more and more, I feel more, not less attached. So I guess I can't quite imagine what that's like. Hope you can feel free to go back whenever you need to, though, and not suffer unnecessarily trying to prove anything.
> Well anyways, I know I am rambling on, but at one time he meant way too much to me, but now those feelings are slowly lessening, but on my own time frame. He will always be special to me, but I feel maybe in a more realistic way. I don't know if this makes sense to anyone, but it is how I feel at least right now.
It makes sense. We are all different in some ways, the same in others I suppose. The way you describe your feelings now reminds me of the way I am about my ex-T. more than current T. Although I still occasionally have hours or a day where I miss him intensely, mostly it's mellowed into something more realistic and comfortable, without all the longing. But this took nearly a year, and help from my T. now. It wasn't easy to live through at all. When I care and am committed and get attached, it is never something I can change easily.
I'm glad you sound at peace with how things are with your therapist. You've come a long way, I'd say. I appreciate your post :-)
Posted by Tamar on September 25, 2005, at 16:19:00
In reply to My T. is Too Important To Me, posted by 10derHeart on September 20, 2005, at 16:14:07
Hi 10der,
I’ve just caught up with this thread and I’m amazed at how you articulated some things I’ve been thinking about in a fuzzy way for a while. So thanks for that.
I was thinking about discussing body image with a male T. I talked to my T about it a bit and he was great (though he did make one comment that made me roll my eyes). But I wish I’d talked about it more because it’s a big deal for me. I was just too embarrassed to discuss it most of the time.
I can see why you’d worry about how your T will respond to you. I think you’re right that he’ll understand why it’s so difficult for you. I don’t know that you need to worry too much about his ability to keep his stuff out of therapy; I suspect that body image is something that he’s worked on before with previous clients (it’s not too uncommon).
And his being a man might actually make that part of it easier: he might have some personal experience of some of the issues but he hasn’t experienced it as a woman. And I think it’s different for people who were overweight as kids. I was so skinny in my childhood and teens that people called me ‘Toothpick’ and it’s hard to adjust to the idea that people now see me as obese. That adjustment isn’t an issue for people who were always overweight.
I reckon your T’s inability to deal with his weight doesn’t mean he can’t help you. Maybe he’s decided to accept his body as it is. If you don’t reach the same conclusion, you’ll have a different basis from which to address your concerns about your body.
Do you think it’s possible to start the discussion on paper to avoid saying something bluntly that you don’t want to say? Maybe you could write down something like, “I've decided to try and talk about my feelings with this weight issue. Since you’ve told me about your experiences as a child I hope you can understand, but I’m anxious about how I will feel about the discussion and whether you can help me achieve what I want to achieve.” Or something that feels right to you.
I agree that it feels more personal than talking about sex! And I can totally relate to the feeling that you don’t want him to agree too much or disagree too much. Mind you, when I talked about it with my T he neither agreed nor disagreed. And, oddly, that annoyed me a little bit too. It’s SUCH a sensitive issue…
> If he agrees too much, I'll likely dissolve in tears, being convinced he sees me looking as gross and ugly and I see myself :-(
One thing I’m sure of… No one sees us looking as gross and ugly as we see ourselves.
> The whole topic makes me feel ill. Thanks for writing about it, though, and getting me thinking. Because there's really no avoiding it for much longer, I can feel things just bubbling to the surface....
I’m sorry it makes you feel ill. I hope that you are able to begin to talk about it, because I think ultimately you will feel a bit better about it. It does take time. I’m not yet in a place where I feel comfortable with my body. But I feel so much better than before…
I was thinking as well about what you were saying to Voce about the bottomless pit. I think that’s necessary. You’re allowed to want more. It’s part of the deal. I know you say you tend to clamp down on it, but I really think that doesn’t help. Well, it didn’t help me, anyway. I needed to experience all of it: the longing, the hoping, the desperate desire for more, more, more… And it was only when I began to accept it that it began to be bearable. It’s OK to need your therapist. It’s part of what he’s there for.
(((((10der)))))
Tamar
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