![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by daisym on September 1, 2005, at 22:39:27
Pushing yourself to be honest in therapy is really hard. So much of what we need to say is painful or embarrassing. Or the brain shuts down because of emotional overload and the words disappear.
I've had a week like this. The true roller coaster of being weepy on Monday, then numbing out yesterday and back to weepy today. Why? He wanted to talk about his vacation. I've been avoiding talking about it. He told me where he was going and I was really surprised. Then I got upset. Then I got mad. In the mix are all these angry feelings at my mother, so I know there is a lot of transference going on. And I keep telling him he feels different, like he isn't as available as he use to be. Can you spot the projection yet??
But the upset over his vacation isn't just about him leaving me. This time I'm jealous. I'm jealous that he is going away with someone who makes him happy, who he wants to be with and whom he is connected and close to. The fact that she is his wife is beside the point. I'm envious of the happiness I imagine they have as a couple. It makes me feel lonely and sad about what is missing in my life. It makes me feel intrusive for having feelings for an obviously happily married man and presumptuous...who do I think I am to feel this way? I feel so unattractive.
I told him most of this today. I told him I was completely embarrassed but these feelings were in the way and I needed to untangle them from the work we are doing around my mother. We talked again about loving someone and how many different levels of love there are, from so many parts of me. And we talked about attraction and the feelings that go with that. I told him how I was feeling about him going away with someone and how running into her a few weeks ago made me feel. (He didn't know that had happened, I never told him.) He said he was glad I told him all this today and he wants to talk about this stuff. He was calm and sweet and understanding.
But he never said what he thought about the CONTENT of our discussion. He always says that I can say anything, that he wants to hear from all sides of me. He believes in talking about things over and over again. But, I think there is a difference between wanting honesty about what I'm thinking and being OK with what I just said. Does that make sense?
This is all so complicated. And the feelings so intense. I'm very worried that I'm finally crossing over into the "I wish I didn't have this patient" territory. I mean, didn't I just tell him today that I was mad that he was going on his vacation with his wife? Don't I want him to be happy? *sigh* He said even if I'm mad at him, he is still coming back from his vacation. And we will still keep working together. I guess that's good, right?
I left him message saying I was worried and I wanted to know what he thought about the content. And then I left another saying that I didn't want to be rejected out loud. But if he was mad he should tell me.
And then I turned off my phone. I'm such a mess...
Posted by crazy teresa on September 2, 2005, at 0:51:38
In reply to Sorting stuff out, posted by daisym on September 1, 2005, at 22:39:27
> He said even if I'm mad at him, he is still coming back from his vacation. And we will still keep working together. I guess that's good, right?
That looks very good to me, Daisy! In fact, I think he summed it all up for you by telling you those things. He's not mad. If anything, he should be flattered that you appreciate him so much!
We'll all help you pass the time until his vacation is over.
crazy t
Posted by rs on September 2, 2005, at 6:18:03
In reply to Sorting stuff out, posted by daisym on September 1, 2005, at 22:39:27
Daisy I am sending you warm caring thoughts and safe hugs
Posted by fallsfall on September 2, 2005, at 10:19:39
In reply to Sorting stuff out, posted by daisym on September 1, 2005, at 22:39:27
There are people in the world who will love you non-judgementally. There are people in the world who won't be overwhelmed by knowing the real you. There are people in the world who can understand that your feelings about them have more to do with you than with them - and will accept that you have those feelings.
I'm sorry that your parents weren't these kind of people.
You won't believe that these people exist until someone demonstrates these things to you (maybe more than once). Your therapist will show you that the people truly do exist.
(((((Daisy)))))
Posted by Annierose on September 2, 2005, at 14:08:29
In reply to Sorting stuff out, posted by daisym on September 1, 2005, at 22:39:27
Daisy -
I truly believe that your T never has had a moment that he'd wish he wasn't your therapist. He cares so much about you and wants to be there for you.
Yes, you are not only doing such hard work, but it's so important. And it's a drain on our brains!! (Gives me headaches sometimes) I think babble not only provides support, but insight. Knowing that you are not alone in your struggle. And for me, learning from you, how to be honest with our T's about EVERYTHING! Especially the feelings that involve them. I usually have my hands covering my face; it's so darn embarassing!! Through your courageous journey, you have helped many.
If you left your phone on, you would have heard your T's gentle voice, telling you that you are okay. That he understands why you feel jealous. That he accepts you 100% as you are. And he will come back from vacation, excited to see you and work on these feelings again and again and again until you are okay. To quote my T "it's a slow but rewarding process".
I'll be thinking about you. I remember that you are also taking your son to college during your T's vacation, how dare they overlap. We'll be here for you, as you have been there for me and other babblers in their struggles.
Posted by madeline on September 2, 2005, at 15:11:16
In reply to Sorting stuff out, posted by daisym on September 1, 2005, at 22:39:27
It's strange, but the feelings you are having exactly what I've experienced with my therapist - even to the point that I was scared to death that he was going to dump me as a patient.
You must trust this relationship that you have with him and that is very very scary. But you must do it.
He will be with you during this transition time and so will we.
((((daisym)))))
Posted by fairywings on September 3, 2005, at 6:33:52
In reply to Sorting stuff out, posted by daisym on September 1, 2005, at 22:39:27
Hi daisy,
I'm so sorry you're having such a hard week and have to deal with another vacation so soon.
I agree with the painful and embarrassing part, and I sure feel for you there. I know what you mean about the words disappearing too. My brain gets to the point where it just stops working. It feels like all my thoughts have crashed and I can't get them unjumbled.
I don't think it sounds like what you've told your T is anything that he would find distasteful, and probably isn't anything he hasn't heard from other clients, if they have been as honest with him as you have been. Although I would guess that it takes a lot of time to be able to be that sincere and honest, which I'm sure he appreciates. I'm sure your love for him is normal, even though it makes you feel crappy. Don't you think it's all a part of the connection that we're supposed to have with them? I don't know I've never been at that place. Jealousy is so normal, I can't imagine not feeling it with your T, esp. when you feel so connected to them, and esp. when they are going to be away for awhile.I think that you're really worried about how he feels about what you shared with him, but from what you said, he was more than okay with everything. He said he was glad you told him, and that he wants to talk about this stuff, that he was calm, sweet, and understanding, he said he's coming back, and you will still keep working together. He really does sound wonderful, and I can understand your feelings toward him.
I hope you're feeling better today.
(((hugs)))
fw
Posted by gardenergirl on September 3, 2005, at 10:19:26
In reply to Sorting stuff out, posted by daisym on September 1, 2005, at 22:39:27
> Pushing yourself to be honest in therapy is really hard. So much of what we need to say is painful or embarrassing. Or the brain shuts down because of emotional overload and the words disappear.
Isn't it amazing when you have an awareness of this happening? It's painful, but in the back of my head, there's also this curious thing saying, "Wow, what a mechanism!"
>
> Then I got upset. Then I got mad. In the mix are all these angry feelings at my mother, so I know there is a lot of transference going on. And I keep telling him he feels different, like he isn't as available as he use to be. Can you spot the projection yet??I think it's great that you are recognizing this. It's huge progress. I know that doesn't ease the hurt, but hang onto that idea. Thinking back to prior posts over the year, this is big.
>
> But the upset over his vacation isn't just about him leaving me. This time I'm jealous. I'm jealous that he is going away with someone who makes him happy, who he wants to be with and whom he is connected and close to. The fact that she is his wife is beside the point. I'm envious of the happiness I imagine they have as a couple. It makes me feel lonely and sad about what is missing in my life. It makes me feel intrusive for having feelings for an obviously happily married man and presumptuous...who do I think I am to feel this way? I feel so unattractive.Oh sweetie. These feelings sound so painful. And also so authentic. Is there any relief at all in finding yourself NOT defending against these very normal feelings? It sounds like you just laid your inner self bare, and he was accepting and comforting. Is it becoming easier for you to stop defending against these feelings? It sounds like it. Again, I would say that is progress.
>> But he never said what he thought about the CONTENT of our discussion. He always says that I can say anything, that he wants to hear from all sides of me. He believes in talking about things over and over again. But, I think there is a difference between wanting honesty about what I'm thinking and being OK with what I just said. Does that make sense?
Daisy, I do see the difference, but I have to say, any reaction he has to the content is HIS to deal with. And it sounds like he does a phenomenal job with managing his own stuff. I do think he is OK with honesty, no matter what the content. It's true that we do have emotional reactions of all kinds to the content. But that doesn't mean we want someone to avoid certain content. (At least I can tell your T does not, and I hope I do not.) There are ways to cope with our own reactions available. We can get peer consultation, journal, seek supervision, read literature, meditate, etc.
I think you probably already know this, but I think your worry about him wishing he didn't have you as a patient or wishing you didn't talk about "certain things" is a re-enactment of something from your childhood. For example, like when you cried, and your mother discouraged that...that content/behavior "turned her off".
Did you share with him your worry about his feelings? I started a new thread to talk about an experience I had recently when I commented on what I thought he might be feeling. It turned out to be one of those therapy "moments" I will never forget.
>
> He said even if I'm mad at him, he is still coming back from his vacation. And we will still keep working together. I guess that's good, right?Yes, that's good. And it's what I think you need to hear again and again. Because I assume that you have not had good experiences in the past when you felt mad at someone. I'm afraid it's going to take repetition for this to feel okay. But it will.
>
> I left him message saying I was worried and I wanted to know what he thought about the content. And then I left another saying that I didn't want to be rejected out loud. But if he was mad he should tell me.
>
> And then I turned off my phone. I'm such a mess...I'm sorry this is so hard. Your phone messages were very honest, and again, I think it's progress that you can ask him that. So, I don't think you are a mess, but I do hear that you've got a jumble of emotions.
How are you doing today? Any fun plans for the holiday weekend?
gg
Posted by Poet on September 3, 2005, at 11:57:01
In reply to Sorting stuff out, posted by daisym on September 1, 2005, at 22:39:27
Hi Daisy,
I don't think you've crossed the line into *I wish I didn't have this patient* territory. You have crossed over into I need to be honest and share my true feelings territory. I think he would see that as being positive even if it means telling him you are angry at him about vacationing with his wife.
You aren't crossing any boundaries; you're just being honest with him and most importantly to yourself. You're not denying feelings for him, it seems to me you're trying hard to accept them and work through them.
Poet
Posted by Tamar on September 3, 2005, at 21:11:54
In reply to Sorting stuff out, posted by daisym on September 1, 2005, at 22:39:27
> Pushing yourself to be honest in therapy is really hard. So much of what we need to say is painful or embarrassing. Or the brain shuts down because of emotional overload and the words disappear.
Oh, I remember that so well. That’s exactly how I used to describe it: the words disappear.
> I've had a week like this. The true roller coaster of being weepy on Monday, then numbing out yesterday and back to weepy today. Why? He wanted to talk about his vacation. I've been avoiding talking about it. He told me where he was going and I was really surprised. Then I got upset. Then I got mad. In the mix are all these angry feelings at my mother, so I know there is a lot of transference going on. And I keep telling him he feels different, like he isn't as available as he use to be. Can you spot the projection yet??
Was there a reason the place he was going surprised you? Did that have something to do with your reaction? (Of course, you don’t have to answer…)
> But the upset over his vacation isn't just about him leaving me. This time I'm jealous. I'm jealous that he is going away with someone who makes him happy, who he wants to be with and whom he is connected and close to. The fact that she is his wife is beside the point. I'm envious of the happiness I imagine they have as a couple. It makes me feel lonely and sad about what is missing in my life. It makes me feel intrusive for having feelings for an obviously happily married man and presumptuous...who do I think I am to feel this way? I feel so unattractive.
(((((Daisy))))) That’s very familiar to me too. I remember saying something to my therapist about wanting the sort of sex life that I imagine other people have; easy, and not hard work. (And of course I meant the sort of thing I imagined *he* has, even if I didn’t say it outright.) And that goes for the relationship too. I imagine he has a perfect marriage and he’s always attentive and appreciative of his wife… and I feel thoroughly ugly when I think about it. And yet… is it really intrusive? It seems to me that wanting to be one half of a happy couple is a reasonable desire. And if you want it with your therapist… well, isn’t that very natural? No doubt he seems like an ideal partner. But I’m sure he also feels connected to you and close to you. It’s not the same as a marriage. But it can be good.
> I told him most of this today. I told him I was completely embarrassed but these feelings were in the way and I needed to untangle them from the work we are doing around my mother. We talked again about loving someone and how many different levels of love there are, from so many parts of me. And we talked about attraction and the feelings that go with that. I told him how I was feeling about him going away with someone and how running into her a few weeks ago made me feel. (He didn't know that had happened, I never told him.) He said he was glad I told him all this today and he wants to talk about this stuff. He was calm and sweet and understanding.
I’m glad he was understanding. I think he can hear anything you have to say. Wow, running into her must have been tough. If that had been me, I would have spent hours thinking about me and her.
> But he never said what he thought about the CONTENT of our discussion. He always says that I can say anything, that he wants to hear from all sides of me. He believes in talking about things over and over again. But, I think there is a difference between wanting honesty about what I'm thinking and being OK with what I just said. Does that make sense?
It makes sense to me. It sounds as if you’re worried that your honesty could push him away from you. However, I don’t think it will push him away. I suspect that instead it will help the connection between you.
> This is all so complicated. And the feelings so intense. I'm very worried that I'm finally crossing over into the "I wish I didn't have this patient" territory.
I think it’s probably just the opposite. I suspect that telling him all this stuff consolidates your therapeutic relationship, and that he feels glad and happy to be working with someone who is able to make so much progress. And I bet your ability to be so honest gives him a sense of satisfaction. I think good therapists thrive on this kind of honesty; I’m sure he feels privileged to work with you.
> I mean, didn't I just tell him today that I was mad that he was going on his vacation with his wife? Don't I want him to be happy? *sigh* He said even if I'm mad at him, he is still coming back from his vacation. And we will still keep working together. I guess that's good, right?
I certainly think it’s good.
> I left him message saying I was worried and I wanted to know what he thought about the content. And then I left another saying that I didn't want to be rejected out loud. But if he was mad he should tell me.
>
> And then I turned off my phone. I'm such a mess...Argh! If by ‘rejected out loud’ you mean a fear that he might not be able to handle your feelings, then I suspect the fear is unfounded. But if by ‘rejected out loud’ you mean a fear that he won’t ever want a relationship with you like he has with his wife, then I suspect he will be able to reassure you without rejecting you.
I know it’s hard. But it seems to me that you’re making immense progress.
I’ll be thinking of you.
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2005, at 15:25:06
In reply to Re: Sorting stuff out » daisym, posted by Tamar on September 3, 2005, at 21:11:54
> It seems to me that wanting to be one half of a happy couple is a reasonable desire. And if you want it with your therapist… well, isn’t that very natural? No doubt he seems like an ideal partner. But I’m sure he also feels connected to you and close to you. It’s not the same as a marriage. But it can be good.
It can be very good indeed, in a completely different way. The only thing I mind about it is times like this. But this isn't usual.
I'm sort of stuck in what to say, Daisy. While I don't want my therapist as anything *but* a therapist, I understand very much feeling like I'm intruding into something that is his alone, and wondering if he really would wish I was gone. Yet when I hear his voice, I can tell that's not how he feels. I know him well enough to read him that well. And I'll bet you know your therapist well enough to read him that well. If he wished you weren't his client, you'd have felt it long ago, and you wouldn't feel towards him the way you feel towards him.
Posted by daisym on September 4, 2005, at 19:30:51
In reply to Re: Sorting stuff out, posted by crazy teresa on September 2, 2005, at 0:51:38
Thanks. Believe me, I'll be looking for support here during the vacation.
funny, I never thought of him being flattered. I don't think he is, I think he is interested in exploring the feelings, but I guess I've been so twisted up about this feeling "wrong" that I have a whole negative spin on it. I just don't want him to feel insulted at my audacity.
Posted by daisym on September 4, 2005, at 19:31:27
In reply to Re: Sorting stuff out » daisym, posted by rs on September 2, 2005, at 6:18:03
Posted by daisym on September 4, 2005, at 19:36:15
In reply to Re: Sorting stuff out » daisym, posted by Annierose on September 2, 2005, at 14:08:29
I hide behind pillows, Annie, and I had three on my lap on Thursday. When I pulled the third one over, he laughed.
It *is* so hard to admit embarrassment and keep going. I want to be more grown up than this, I want to be able to calmly talk about all of these feelings in an adult, removed sort of way. Like I do with my kids about sex. I just get swallowed up in the feelings though.
He did call and leave a message even though my phone was off. Said he would tell me exactly what he thought but for now I should just know that he was not going anywhere, no matter what I said.
We are supposed to talk Monday. I may postpone that though. I think is better done in person than on the phone. Or maybe I'm still hiding from him.
Have I said this is hard?
Posted by daisym on September 4, 2005, at 19:37:27
In reply to Re: Sorting stuff out, posted by madeline on September 2, 2005, at 15:11:16
Everytime I think I completely trust him, something slides in and whispers a warning to back off.
Old habits die hard. But I'm trying.
Thanks for offering to help.
Posted by daisym on September 4, 2005, at 19:43:20
In reply to Re: Sorting stuff out, posted by fairywings on September 3, 2005, at 6:33:52
Maybe we should spend a session or two working on sign language so that when my brain refused to make words, I can still communicate! :)
I told him over and over that it was easier when I didn't feel my feelings, when they were exiled. Because all these feelings seem to be getting in the way of working on stuff. He tells me this is the stuff we should be working on. *sigh*
I hope he is OK with all of this. I tell myself what you said, he has heard it a million times, that I'm being narcissistic in thinking my declarations are special. It all feels so threatening to me. But it feels worse to hold it in, so forward I go.
Thanks for the support.
Posted by daisym on September 4, 2005, at 20:01:17
In reply to Re: Sorting stuff out » daisym, posted by gardenergirl on September 3, 2005, at 10:19:26
> Pushing yourself to be honest in therapy is really hard. So much of what we need to say is painful or embarrassing. Or the brain shuts down because of emotional overload and the words disappear.
Isn't it amazing when you have an awareness of this happening? It's painful, but in the back of my head, there's also this curious thing saying, "Wow, what a mechanism!"
***I've said many times that I feel like pride got tossed out the window and I can see myself pushing forward even as the emotions swirl around. Yes, weird to watch and feel.
> Then I got upset. Then I got mad. In the mix are all these angry feelings at my mother, so I know there is a lot of transference going on. And I keep telling him he feels different, like he isn't as available as he use to be. Can you spot the projection yet??I think it's great that you are recognizing this. It's huge progress. I know that doesn't ease the hurt, but hang onto that idea. Thinking back to prior posts over the year, this is big.
***Now, if I could stop doing it since I recognize it!
> But the upset over his vacation isn't just about him leaving me. This time I'm jealous. I'm jealous that he is going away with someone who makes him happy, who he wants to be with and whom he is connected and close to. The fact that she is his wife is beside the point. I'm envious of the happiness I imagine they have as a couple. It makes me feel lonely and sad about what is missing in my life. It makes me feel intrusive for having feelings for an obviously happily married man and presumptuous...who do I think I am to feel this way? I feel so unattractive.Oh sweetie. These feelings sound so painful. And also so authentic. Is there any relief at all in finding yourself NOT defending against these very normal feelings? It sounds like you just laid your inner self bare, and he was accepting and comforting. Is it becoming easier for you to stop defending against these feelings? It sounds like it. Again, I would say that is progress.
***When I told him it was hard to talk about because it is so embarrassing, he said it is good for me to talk about embarrassing stuff because I have so little practice at that. I'm good at moving away from things that make me uncomfortable because I assume it will make everyone uncomfortable. And that is breaking the cardinal rule. I don't know if it feels better, but it feels necessary. Like I just can't keep secrets from him. Above all, THAT feels the worse. Because that would just be like with my mother.> But he never said what he thought about the CONTENT of our discussion. He always says that I can say anything, that he wants to hear from all sides of me. He believes in talking about things over and over again. But, I think there is a difference between wanting honesty about what I'm thinking and being OK with what I just said. Does that make sense?
Daisy, I do see the difference, but I have to say, any reaction he has to the content is HIS to deal with. And it sounds like he does a phenomenal job with managing his own stuff. I do think he is OK with honesty, no matter what the content. It's true that we do have emotional reactions of all kinds to the content. But that doesn't mean we want someone to avoid certain content. (At least I can tell your T does not, and I hope I do not.) There are ways to cope with our own reactions available. We can get peer consultation, journal, seek supervision, read literature, meditate, etc.
***Yes, but GG, I don't want to say things that make him hate me. OK, hate is too strong. I just read this whole article on therapist hate for patients who are chronically suicidal. It made a lot of sense, the frustration and worry, but it scared the begezus out of me. Who wants to work with someone who doesn't like them? And I NEED people to like me. EVERYONE likes good girls, haven't you heard? (another issue to work on)
I think you probably already know this, but I think your worry about him wishing he didn't have you as a patient or wishing you didn't talk about "certain things" is a re-enactment of something from your childhood. For example, like when you cried, and your mother discouraged that...that content/behavior "turned her off".
***Yup. I keep doing this to him in a variety of ways. I'm constantly putting him in the position of my mother, waiting for him to react like she did and does.
Did you share with him your worry about his feelings? I started a new thread to talk about an experience I had recently when I commented on what I thought he might be feeling. It turned out to be one of those therapy "moments" I will never forget.
***I told him in the message I left him that I wanted to know what he thought about the content. Actually I think I said, "you said back to me everything I said, but you never said what you were thinking. So I know you heard me, but ???" When he called and left a message he said he would tell me what he thought and we could and should keep talking about this.
> He said even if I'm mad at him, he is still coming back from his vacation. And we will still keep working together. I guess that's good, right?Yes, that's good. And it's what I think you need to hear again and again. Because I assume that you have not had good experiences in the past when you felt mad at someone. I'm afraid it's going to take repetition for this to feel okay. But it will.
***I know. He asked me if since we'd been through vacations several times now, wasn't it even just a little easier for me to believe he'll be back? I know the answer was supposed to be yes, I'm pretty sure I nodded my head yes, but instead I wanted to scream, "NO! I'm using up my luck and my chances. Each time you leave there is another chance that you'll figure out how hard I am."
> I left him message saying I was worried and I wanted to know what he thought about the content. And then I left another saying that I didn't want to be rejected out loud. But if he was mad he should tell me.
>
> And then I turned off my phone. I'm such a mess...I'm sorry this is so hard. Your phone messages were very honest, and again, I think it's progress that you can ask him that. So, I don't think you are a mess, but I do hear that you've got a jumble of emotions.
***Jumble is a good word. His phone message back to me said, "Thank you for your message. Long is good sometimes and you made lots of sense. I want to talk to you about all this, which would be easier if you would answer your phone." :)
How are you doing today? Any fun plans for the holiday weekend?
***I visited my mother today so I'm confused and sad tonight. But I'll be Fine. I just wish I could be what she expected - strong and resilient and smart enough to figure out the answers. I can't even figure out the questions right now.
thanks for your help.
Posted by daisym on September 4, 2005, at 20:04:03
In reply to Re: Sorting stuff out » daisym, posted by Poet on September 3, 2005, at 11:57:01
Can I be allowed to say that I'm tired of trying to work through everything??! I want to have a set of feelings that I don't have to work on. I want the right feelings to show up and stay here.
How is that for a tantrum? I feel like a selfish brat who has no pride left and wants whatever someone else has and not her own life. Maybe I need to work on that self-denial thing again.
Thanks for the support.
Posted by daisym on September 4, 2005, at 20:52:08
In reply to Re: Sorting stuff out » daisym, posted by Tamar on September 3, 2005, at 21:11:54
> Pushing yourself to be honest in therapy is really hard. So much of what we need to say is painful or embarrassing. Or the brain shuts down because of emotional overload and the words disappear.
Oh, I remember that so well. That’s exactly how I used to describe it: the words disappear.
***Did you ever find a way to make it stop happening?
> I've had a week like this. The true roller coaster of being weepy on Monday, then numbing out yesterday and back to weepy today. Why? He wanted to talk about his vacation. I've been avoiding talking about it. He told me where he was going and I was really surprised. Then I got upset. Then I got mad. In the mix are all these angry feelings at my mother, so I know there is a lot of transference going on. And I keep telling him he feels different, like he isn't as available as he use to be. Can you spot the projection yet??
Was there a reason the place he was going surprised you? Did that have something to do with your reaction? (Of course, you don’t have to answer…)
***I thought he was going somewhere else. I hate to be wrong. But I think mostly why I got upset was because my first reaction was to say, "oh, are you going to visit family?" and my next reaction was - I'm not allowed (or supposed to) ask that. And the realization (again) that I'm not part of his "real" life felt like a slap. The anger is at myself for wanting something I can't have. I know better than this!
> But the upset over his vacation isn't just about him leaving me. This time I'm jealous. I'm jealous that he is going away with someone who makes him happy, who he wants to be with and whom he is connected and close to. The fact that she is his wife is beside the point. I'm envious of the happiness I imagine they have as a couple. It makes me feel lonely and sad about what is missing in my life. It makes me feel intrusive for having feelings for an obviously happily married man and presumptuous...who do I think I am to feel this way? I feel so unattractive.
(((((Daisy))))) That’s very familiar to me too. I remember saying something to my therapist about wanting the sort of sex life that I imagine other people have; easy, and not hard work. (And of course I meant the sort of thing I imagined *he* has, even if I didn’t say it outright.) And that goes for the relationship too. I imagine he has a perfect marriage and he’s always attentive and appreciative of his wife… and I feel thoroughly ugly when I think about it. And yet… is it really intrusive? It seems to me that wanting to be one half of a happy couple is a reasonable desire. And if you want it with your therapist… well, isn’t that very natural? No doubt he seems like an ideal partner. But I’m sure he also feels connected to you and close to you. It’s not the same as a marriage. But it can be good.
***The part I haven't told him yet is that I have this whole fantasy that he can teach me that sex can be gentle and special and that it can feel safe and good. Right now it isn't any of those things for me. And yes, I want to be the other half of something special. I'm tired of being lonely. I wish he hadn't shown me possibilities. I think it is too late for me to find this kind of a relationship. I never even knew I wanted it. It makes me very sad. And I'm very aware of my physical flaws, in a way that I haven't been since I was a teenager. He has this theory that I never gave myself over to these intense feelings, even as a teen, so in many ways I'm experiencing an adolescent crush in all its painful intensity. He said this in a way that didn't feel like a put down but rather something else I missed.
> I told him most of this today. I told him I was completely embarrassed but these feelings were in the way and I needed to untangle them from the work we are doing around my mother. We talked again about loving someone and how many different levels of love there are, from so many parts of me. And we talked about attraction and the feelings that go with that. I told him how I was feeling about him going away with someone and how running into her a few weeks ago made me feel. (He didn't know that had happened, I never told him.) He said he was glad I told him all this today and he wants to talk about this stuff. He was calm and sweet and understanding.
I’m glad he was understanding. I think he can hear anything you have to say. Wow, running into her must have been tough. If that had been me, I would have spent hours thinking about me and her.
***OF COURSE I DID. She is everything I'm not, thin, pretty, tallish (though I think that was the shoes). She was dressed really cute and the worst part was that she look so happy when she greeted her client. It was that happiness that did me in. The comparison for me was the doom and gloom I bring into the room with me and the sunshine she brought with her. And this confused me even further because I asked myself what I thought I was doing, comparing us. Did I want him with an unattractive, unhappy person? I have no answer for this. I did not tell him ANY of this. He's a guy, he wouldn't get it.
> But he never said what he thought about the CONTENT of our discussion. He always says that I can say anything, that he wants to hear from all sides of me. He believes in talking about things over and over again. But, I think there is a difference between wanting honesty about what I'm thinking and being OK with what I just said. Does that make sense?
It makes sense to me. It sounds as if you’re worried that your honesty could push him away from you. However, I don’t think it will push him away. I suspect that instead it will help the connection between you.
***I hope you are right. It feels a little like it is getting in the way of what we should be working on. He would argue with this I'm sure.
> This is all so complicated. And the feelings so intense. I'm very worried that I'm finally crossing over into the "I wish I didn't have this patient" territory.
I think it’s probably just the opposite. I suspect that telling him all this stuff consolidates your therapeutic relationship, and that he feels glad and happy to be working with someone who is able to make so much progress. And I bet your ability to be so honest gives him a sense of satisfaction. I think good therapists thrive on this kind of honesty; I’m sure he feels privileged to work with you.
***How do you ask this without it sounding very narcissistic? I've told him I want to be special. Last week we talked about how hard it was for me to be just one of many clients. He said we have a unique and special relationship. I said that sounds like the text book answer they must be taught in school. I make it hard for him to reassure me in this area. Which makes me wonder what I'm wanting from him.
> I mean, didn't I just tell him today that I was mad that he was going on his vacation with his wife? Don't I want him to be happy? *sigh* He said even if I'm mad at him, he is still coming back from his vacation. And we will still keep working together. I guess that's good, right?
I certainly think it’s good.
> I left him message saying I was worried and I wanted to know what he thought about the content. And then I left another saying that I didn't want to be rejected out loud. But if he was mad he should tell me.
>
> And then I turned off my phone. I'm such a mess...Argh! If by ‘rejected out loud’ you mean a fear that he might not be able to handle your feelings, then I suspect the fear is unfounded. But if by ‘rejected out loud’ you mean a fear that he won’t ever want a relationship with you like he has with his wife, then I suspect he will be able to reassure you without rejecting you.
***Again, I think I make it hard for him to do this. Mostly I think I'm looking at the emptiness in my marriage and feeling very sad about it all. I think it ended when we weren't looking and I have no idea if we even want to save it. Him being sick makes everything complicated. So I really, really don't want more rejection.
I know it’s hard. But it seems to me that you’re making immense progress.
***Is it progress? I feel more confused and it occurred to me today that a lot of my angst is about therapy and my therapist. Wouldn't it be easier than me if I didn't have these complications? When is therapy more harmful for you than helpful? (I'm telling myself that I just saw my mother which is why I feel like therapy is bad for me and a crutch and I'm weak and all that. I think that is another post.)
Thanks for your help and insights, as always. I have a lot of work to do here.
Posted by daisym on September 4, 2005, at 20:55:34
In reply to Re: Sorting stuff out, posted by Dinah on September 4, 2005, at 15:25:06
If someone gave me the choice of giving up my therapist for a relationship, I would say no. This I'm sure of. I've never had anyone do for me what he has done and I'm sure it wouldn't ever happen in another setting. So I need him in his therapist role.
This idea of total honesty though is hard for me. Setting pride aside and letting needs out, it feels dangerous and presumptuous. And no one can tell me how much is too much.
But I think you are right. I think I could tell if he really started to resent me. And since I don't feel that yet, maybe I don't have to worry so much, yet.
Thanks for helping me understand myself.
Posted by happyflower on September 4, 2005, at 21:33:55
In reply to Re: Sorting stuff out » Dinah, posted by daisym on September 4, 2005, at 20:55:34
Hi Daisy! I have been following your posts and I must say you sure are working hard. You are so brave to discuss your feelings with your T so honestly. I don't have much advice to offer, but just want you to know that you are doing unbelievable work in therapy. You must be exhausted! I see good things for you! :)
Posted by daisym on September 4, 2005, at 22:23:00
In reply to Re: Sorting stuff out, posted by happyflower on September 4, 2005, at 21:33:55
Thanks Happy. It is exhausting work. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm not pushing too hard. I wish I was sleeping better, I think that would help.
I've been following your posts too. Have you been able to tell your therapist how you are feeling?I appreciate the support and faith. :)
Posted by happyflower on September 4, 2005, at 22:40:57
In reply to Re: Sorting stuff out » happyflower, posted by daisym on September 4, 2005, at 22:23:00
Hi Daisy!
I feel close to my T , I trust him more and more each session, and I feel very comfortable with him. I feel like he would accept anything I had to say, but I am scared to reveal some things. I think in time I will, but right now we are talking about my marriage problems which seems to be the most pressing right now.
Then I am trying to enrich my life with playing the trumpet, exercising, and taking garden classes. I am trying to make new friends, and I am trying to fill the void I feel in my life from my empty marriage. This gives us a lot to talk about.
You say you are not sleeping well, I had this problem too for a long time, but now since I am exercising I fall right asleep! Which is good so I don't feel the loneless from my DH which is inches away from me.
Hang in there, you are doing good work. You and your T are amazing to me, you give me hope. Have a good night! :)
Posted by Annierose on September 5, 2005, at 8:36:01
In reply to Re: Sorting stuff out » happyflower, posted by daisym on September 4, 2005, at 22:23:00
Daisy -
A thought just occured to me. As important as it is to talk to your T about the feelings you have about him, and I do think that is so hard to discuss and critical to therapy ...
But have you spoken to your T about the contrast in your own marriage? Your reply to Tamar was so honest re: your marriage. I can't seem to put into words what I'm trying to say (looking at a blank screen for 10 minutes ... maybe it's too early).
There's such a strong contrast, and I think there's solid therapy material in that ... expectations, longing, the "perfect" husband in your T, your husband's medical condition, etc.
Posted by Tamar on September 5, 2005, at 13:10:26
In reply to Re: Sorting stuff out, posted by daisym on September 4, 2005, at 20:52:08
> Oh, I remember that so well. That’s exactly how I used to describe it: the words disappear.
>
> ***Did you ever find a way to make it stop happening?Actually, yeah! I realised that whenever it happened I was looking down and to my right, at the carpet next to the wall. And I tended to focus on the carpet and let the words drift away; not on purpose, but it just kind of happened, usually when I felt embarrassed or afraid. So once I realised it was happening I wouldn’t let myself look down there. If my gaze shifted to that spot I made a conscious effort to look at my therapist’s face again, and he was always waiting quietly for me to come back. Somehow, looking at his face was reassuring when I was feeling lost for words, and I started to be able to talk again.
> ***I thought he was going somewhere else. I hate to be wrong. But I think mostly why I got upset was because my first reaction was to say, "oh, are you going to visit family?" and my next reaction was - I'm not allowed (or supposed to) ask that. And the realization (again) that I'm not part of his "real" life felt like a slap. The anger is at myself for wanting something I can't have. I know better than this!
Yeah, I bit my tongue all the time rather than ask questions I wasn’t ‘supposed’ to ask. The funny thing was, on the two occasions I actually asked him anything, he answered me. So I guess I was wrong to think that I wasn’t supposed to ask. And yeah, knowing we’re not part of their real lives feels like a slap, but sometimes I think we slap ourselves, whereas if we just asked what we wanted to know it would be easier.
> ***The part I haven't told him yet is that I have this whole fantasy that he can teach me that sex can be gentle and special and that it can feel safe and good. Right now it isn't any of those things for me.
I had (have) that fantasy too. And in a way my therapist did teach me that, although through therapy rather than by example! But I know my situation was not the same as yours is. Nevertheless, I think there are probably ways in which talking about this fantasy could be useful (even if it’s embarrassing). To me, my therapist was the embodiment of safety, so for me it made sense that I wanted ‘safe sex’ with him in a way that I couldn’t imagine it being safe with anyone else. Something that helped me was having non-sexual fantasies about my therapist while I was having sex with my husband (I know how weird that sounds!). I imagined my therapist was there, holding my hand and reminding me to stay in the present. Just the idea of him made it easier for me.
> ***And yes, I want to be the other half of something special. I'm tired of being lonely. I wish he hadn't shown me possibilities. I think it is too late for me to find this kind of a relationship. I never even knew I wanted it. It makes me very sad. And I'm very aware of my physical flaws, in a way that I haven't been since I was a teenager. He has this theory that I never gave myself over to these intense feelings, even as a teen, so in many ways I'm experiencing an adolescent crush in all its painful intensity. He said this in a way that didn't feel like a put down but rather something else I missed.
I don’t think it’s ever too late to find the kind of relationship you want. It might be difficult to find it in your marriage at this stage, though probably not impossible. And as for physical ‘flaws’… sometimes those are the very things that people are attracted to, simply because they’re part of you. I can see how missing out on adolescent intensity can be something that might lead to intense feelings now, but to be honest I think these intense feelings are inevitable because of the sense of relief at being able to trust someone with this stuff after such a long time.
> I’m glad he was understanding. I think he can hear anything you have to say. Wow, running into her must have been tough. If that had been me, I would have spent hours thinking about me and her.
>
> ***OF COURSE I DID. She is everything I'm not, thin, pretty, tallish (though I think that was the shoes).Well, with the exception of Rod Stewart, men tend to like all different kinds of women. Being physically different from someone’s wife doesn’t mean you’re unattractive to him!
> ***She was dressed really cute and the worst part was that she look so happy when she greeted her client. It was that happiness that did me in. The comparison for me was the doom and gloom I bring into the room with me and the sunshine she brought with her. And this confused me even further because I asked myself what I thought I was doing, comparing us. Did I want him with an unattractive, unhappy person? I have no answer for this.
If you saw her greeting a client, then you saw her professional persona. I’m sure that in real life she’s just as capable of doom and gloom as the next person. And of course ‘doom and gloom’ does not in any way sum up who you are. You’re interesting, intelligent, articulate, successful and loving. Who wouldn’t want that in a relationship (even a therapeutic relationship)?
> ***I did not tell him ANY of this. He's a guy, he wouldn't get it.
Don’t be too sure! Guys get jealous too. And I think any sensitive therapist would understand that a client might compare herself with his wife.
> It makes sense to me. It sounds as if you’re worried that your honesty could push him away from you. However, I don’t think it will push him away. I suspect that instead it will help the connection between you.
>
> ***I hope you are right. It feels a little like it is getting in the way of what we should be working on. He would argue with this I'm sure.I think it’s probably part of what you need to be working on, because it indicates all kinds of themes that connect with the ‘real’ issues. And I really do think that talking about the relationship is part of the work. I wish I’d been in the kind of therapy that encouraged it more. I had to do it in a fairly roundabout way. I wish now I’d had what it takes to be more explicit about those feelings.
> I think it’s probably just the opposite. I suspect that telling him all this stuff consolidates your therapeutic relationship, and that he feels glad and happy to be working with someone who is able to make so much progress. And I bet your ability to be so honest gives him a sense of satisfaction. I think good therapists thrive on this kind of honesty; I’m sure he feels privileged to work with you.
>
> ***How do you ask this without it sounding very narcissistic? I've told him I want to be special. Last week we talked about how hard it was for me to be just one of many clients. He said we have a unique and special relationship. I said that sounds like the text book answer they must be taught in school. I make it hard for him to reassure me in this area. Which makes me wonder what I'm wanting from him.Maybe what you want is more reassurance. Maybe you need to hear it hundreds of times to be sure it’s genuine. I don’t think it’s narcissistic to ask about this kind of thing. I suppose you can ask how he feels about working with you, or ask what he gets out of doing this kind of work with people like you, or ask what aspects of your relationship with him are valuable to him. I think these are legitimate questions. Perhaps you can phrase it in a way that frames the question as a question about his job satisfaction, but there’s no doubt that the answer he gives will say something about the relationship with you (and maybe he’ll pick up on that possibility, which is no bad thing). I know it’s hard to ask. But I think not asking means we ask ourselves in our imaginations and come up with horrible answers. Well, I do that anyway.
> Argh! If by ‘rejected out loud’ you mean a fear that he might not be able to handle your feelings, then I suspect the fear is unfounded. But if by ‘rejected out loud’ you mean a fear that he won’t ever want a relationship with you like he has with his wife, then I suspect he will be able to reassure you without rejecting you.
>
> ***Again, I think I make it hard for him to do this. Mostly I think I'm looking at the emptiness in my marriage and feeling very sad about it all. I think it ended when we weren't looking and I have no idea if we even want to save it. Him being sick makes everything complicated. So I really, really don't want more rejection.Yes, having a sick partner in an empty marriage must be extremely difficult. And I got the impression that it isn’t easy to communicate with him about anything you’re working on in therapy. Does your husband agree that your marriage has ended? I suppose making decisions about it at this point would be very difficult indeed. And yes, I can understand why you wouldn’t want to say anything to your therapist that might potentially invite rejection. I have a huge fear of rejection too; I hate saying things that might lead that way. But when you remember all the things you’ve managed to say up till now, and how he’s reacted to those, and when you remember that he always says he wants to keep working with you, perhaps you will be able to keep trusting him with the difficult things. I hope so, anyway.
> ***Is it progress? I feel more confused and it occurred to me today that a lot of my angst is about therapy and my therapist. Wouldn't it be easier than me if I didn't have these complications? When is therapy more harmful for you than helpful? (I'm telling myself that I just saw my mother which is why I feel like therapy is bad for me and a crutch and I'm weak and all that. I think that is another post.)
It looks like progress from where I’m sitting. I found that when my feelings for my therapist got more intense it was because of working really hard on stuff. The feelings were part of the solution rather than part of the problem, as it turned out. Maybe it *would* be easier for you if you didn’t have these ‘complications’. But I think these feelings happen for a reason, and working with them is ultimately more effective than wishing them away.
And I can’t imagine that doing therapy is a sign of any kind of weakness. On the contrary, it takes remarkable strength and courage. It’s certainly painful and confusing, especially having these feelings. But it does get better. Well, I found it got better once I accepted the feelings as natural and stopped trying to stamp on them. I only ever talked about it indirectly (though I suppose my therapist guessed precisely where it was all coming from) and eventually there were actually some pleasant moments, if you can believe that!
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