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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 27, 2005, at 10:58:25
It's so strange- having an Ego State Disorder. As you enter therapy and begin working on them, you know they are there- but you don't yet know how vital they really are to the way you function in life. You also don't really know in the beginning that they do not always agree with one another about how much to trust people, and how best to interact with others. You think the adult part is making all the decisions about things like that- and making good ones
Then you begin to realize that younger parts of you are very frightened about decisions you may have made to trust others and be involved with them in important ongoing ways. As therapy continues (analysis five days a week for me- a complete financial disaster, as I am a rather low-paid academic!), the younger parts come more out of your unconscious and feel more and more real. You begin to know a lot more, but you tend to feel sicker-almost crazy, really- trying to deal with all kinds of different feelings and impulses- and still feel like one person. I think that's the hardest part- you don't feel like a single person anymore, so it gets very hard to organize your life meaningfully.
But the thing that is so good is that as the parts feel more real, and express themselves more in therapy- at times almost fighting for their own time- they do begin to feel attached to your analyst and comforted by him. Each part (I think I have three) has to do this separately, in their own way. The baby part has special fears and longings which are just hers; the abused 6-year old has fears and terrors which are just hers, and the adult I've long since become has yet another set of needs and wishes- to remain connected, and to have as deep and meaningful experience as possible. Like it or not, you just have to keep expanding your sense of your own identity to include all the ego states pressing desperately for recognition!
I'm writing about this, because it's not exactly like most people's therapy-(I know Daisy's is like this), but I wanted people to know that it is really helping. I do mean REALLY. It was what was wrong with me, and working in this way has decreased the amount of depression and anxiety I had by a great deal, and has increased my confidence a lot, too. My therapist, who thinks many more people have an ego state disorder than is recognized (It;s not in the DSM except as DID-NOS, which is not exactly right), wrote recently that, if a patient with an abuse background of any kind is not improving as expected, a paradigm shift in the therapist's thinking towards an ego state disorder can break therapeutic impasses and result in wonderful rewards for both therapist and patient- if both can struggle through the initial panic and disorganization which is apt to occur.
This concept is not so different from the current thinking that we all go through life trying to feel like one while being many..
Posted by Shortelise on August 27, 2005, at 11:53:23
In reply to Progress with the Ego States..., posted by Pfinstegg on August 27, 2005, at 10:58:25
That is amazingly interesting, thank you. I can relate it to once a week therapy, too, though it is, as you say, very different.
I'm glad you're getting through it, getting through all the caca, and getting better.
ShortE
Posted by daisym on August 27, 2005, at 19:52:23
In reply to Progress with the Ego States..., posted by Pfinstegg on August 27, 2005, at 10:58:25
I think what resonates with me the most is that feeling of it being absolutely necessary to allow the different states to talk and yet feeling completely nuts as you do it. I've asked a few times if this isn't "just" my way of not owning the feelings, the sadness or especially the anger and pushing it off on to a different part of me, as if to say, "SHE feels like this" but I don't. I'm a good girl.
But it is so real. And my therapist always encourages me to respect those feelings and to talk about them in whatever way I want to. He openly asks if any other feelings (from another part of me) are hanging around. And we've talked about who gets triggered by what,etc. It is a weird concept, frozen feelings or encapsulation of age states, and I think it makes some of the working through very painful because you are actually going back and feeling it all again. Even with support and caring, it still hurts.
I keep hoping I'll get past wanting complete freedom from the memories held by those little girls and begin to be able to see their strengths and how they contributed to the good parts of who I am now.
I wish there was more research to read about this. I imagine it must be fairly common, but perhaps not, given that most people don't go to therapy more than once or twice a week. It would be hard to give each piece time and attention, and boy, they sure demand it! When I was having a melt down on tuesday about cutting back, my therapist said, "she just isn't going to let you get away with that." And he was right. It was the youngest part of me who was terrified the most and the adult part that thought *I* was being ridiculous.
Have you found physiological responses to supressing an age state? Or in letting one come through? This has just started to happen for me.
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 27, 2005, at 20:09:06
In reply to Re: Progress with the Ego States... » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on August 27, 2005, at 19:52:23
Do you mean a racing heartbeat, trembling, sweating, sexual arousal? Yes to all, I admit.
You made such a good point. We did, somehow, grow into good, competent women, and it's not reasonable to have such negative feelings towards those innocent little girls we once were- I think that's a big part of the illness to work on. Like you, I know I'll feel so much better when I truly can accept and love them. It's definitely better, but not all there yet. When I first realized how real my 6 year old was, and how awful she felt, I practically yelled at my analyst, "let's get RID of her!" I've come a long way since then, but it has become a sort of tender joke between us- he will quote me at times to remind me about the progress I've made. I do love how humorous and humane he has remained in the face of all the stress of the last two years. I know yours has too.
Posted by daisym on August 27, 2005, at 20:51:36
In reply to Re: Progress with the Ego States... » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on August 27, 2005, at 20:09:06
yup...all those and headaches and sick feeling in the pit of my stomach and sometimes I CAN'T BREATHE, there is such a weight on my chest. My 9 year old self gets most of the arousal sensations and my youngest self has thigh pain. The 13 year old has all kinds of weird lower body part pain. I really had that! Slowly we've identified most of the somatic memories and gosh this is embarressing to do. But once we talk about what the body is telling us, it eases up.
I went into shock once in his office after a story. It scared him. Terrified the hell out of me. Hard work, isn't it?
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 27, 2005, at 21:18:14
In reply to Re: Progress with the Ego States... » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on August 27, 2005, at 20:51:36
VERY hard work. But I feel privileged to have the chance to do it. I know these problems are much commoner than people think, but they are usually so well-hidden- from ourselves, and often, I think, from therapists, too. You and I are so lucky to have the therapists we have- I do think they are rare. And also lucky to have the financial resources to go so often- I think that's so important, because it's so natural to do so much forgetting and re-repressing between sessions- so painful, otherwise.
I never thought I would find someone on the net with the same thing wrong that I have- and that we could share our experiences with so much confidence and trust. I think it is a real help in making therapy go better, not just a frill. I am always getting good ideas from you which I can use in my sessions, and often realize that I've been avoiding something which you are meeting head-on! I just know it from reading your posts-it isn't exactly all spelled out. So- thank you, Daisy.
Posted by littleone on August 29, 2005, at 22:07:11
In reply to Progress with the Ego States..., posted by Pfinstegg on August 27, 2005, at 10:58:25
Your post was very timely for me.
My T has previously said that he believes I have a shattered ego (sense of self). Which sounds scary and vague to me. So I took in a heap of posts from you and daisy explaining your ideas about Ego State Disorders and after reading through them, he explained that he was talking about the same sort of thing (just different terminology).
Since then I've been so confused and conflicted about it. Often it feels right. And it explains so many things, eg like how I can have such opposite opinions of myself at different times or why I become so childlike at times.
But at other times I think it's ridiculous to even consider it. It seems like such a severe and serious problem that could only be caused by terrible and chronic childhood abuse. My dad is a bit scary, but I just can't see that my parents were *that* bad.
But then I think I have a heap of issues around not wanting to admit they may have been abusive.
So everything's tangled up and hard to see.
It makes it hard too to think okay, maybe I don't have a shattered ego. In that case, do I feel like I have a whole ego? A constant sense of self? A cohesive and fluid history of my life? Sadly, I believe no, but then it's hard for me to comprehend what a whole ego would feel like. Maybe I am feeling it, but I just don't know it.
I asked my T about this the other day. Does it feel like one entity, or does it still not feel whole as such, ie does it still feel like you're made up of parts (eg husband, father, friend, workmate, etc) but they all kind of fit together like a cohesive, collective group to make up your self?
I've forgotten how he worded it, but he basically said that he feels like just one person filling all those roles. But it's still hard for me to understand that.
Has your T talked about this before?
So much of your post really rang true for me.> As you enter therapy and begin working on them, you know they are there- but you don't yet know how vital they really are to the way you function in life. You also don't really know in the beginning that they do not always agree with one another about how much to trust people, and how best to interact with others. You think the adult part is making all the decisions about things like that- and making good ones.
Yes, this all feels so familiar. I just don't want it to be.
> the younger parts come more out of your unconscious and feel more and more real. You begin to know a lot more, but you tend to feel sicker-almost crazy, really- trying to deal with all kinds of different feelings and impulses- and still feel like one person. I think that's the hardest part- you don't feel like a single person anymore, so it gets very hard to organize your life meaningfully.This is how I feel at the moment. Like when you buy a new car and suddenly start seeing the same sort of car everywhere on the roads. Now that I'm starting to think about parts or ego states, I can see them a lot now. If I'm feeling an overwhelming emotion, I can start to see that perhaps it's a younger part that is scared/angry/whatever about something. If I'm feeling torn between things, I can start to see that different parts of me are after different things (eg one might be after comfort/caring and the other after known safety).
> I'm writing about this, because it's not exactly like most people's therapy-(I know Daisy's is like this), but I wanted people to know that it is really helping. I do mean REALLY. It was what was wrong with me, and working in this way has decreased the amount of depression and anxiety I had by a great deal, and has increased my confidence a lot, too.You give me hope. I've felt so hopeless for a such a long time now. Every little ray of hope is like precious gold to me. I'm so glad you found a T who could recognise what your problem really was and treat it accordingly.
> This concept is not so different from the current thinking that we all go through life trying to feel like one while being many..
Could you please explain this a little more? Are you saying that even people with a healthy sense of self try to feel like one while being many?
I've read "The Myth of Sanity" and from what I recall it talked about everyone sort of having parts (eg when they say "I wasn't myself"), but that we are all on a continuim where I guess you and I would be outside the healthy range, but not right over at the DID end. Is this what you're talking about above?
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 30, 2005, at 12:29:54
In reply to Re: Progress with the Ego States... » Pfinstegg, posted by littleone on August 29, 2005, at 22:07:11
Hi. I have been reading a lot in neuroscience and psychoanalysis- to help myself understand my own situation better- and to learn what people in these fields are currently thinking about how the mind works, and who we really are. I've been noticing, over and over, that the most modern thinking includes the general concept that our minds are made up of many parts. If there isn't a lot of trauma and pain in one's childhood, these parts are generally quite naturally integrated. The more trauma one has, the more your adult mind separates from the parts bearing the traumatic memories. This is adaptive, as it enables you to start off your adult life with the most hope, trust and confidence possible. But the parts bearing the experiences of trauma, pain, distress, etc. tend to keep breaking through, and giving you feelings of fear and sadness, even, or often, when things are going well in adult life. I have been very blessed in life- with a good husband, two wonderful sons, a career which has been successful and rewarding, a lot of good friends- and still, these negative feelings began breaking through more and more, until I became clinically very depressed and anxious. I knew I had a history of abuse, but I was just determined it wasn't going to ruin my life. That's where the ego states come in-they are carrying all those feeling and memories for the adult you, and they want to be heard and known, too.
I do agree that no-one wants to know that they have these separate, pain-carrying parts inside themselves. I know I was very fearful that they would "take over" and make it impossible for the adult me to keep on functioning the way I had been doing. I have days when I still feel fearful of that. But the opposite is actually true- the power the parts have to cause pain lessens when the parts themselves become more conscious, and their pain is listened to and validated. It's a slow process- much slower than one wants! But it can help so much.
If your therapist thinks that you have parts, or ego-states, holding unconscious memories of neglect and/or abuse, he may be right. You and he, together, are not going to find anything that isn't there. And it will be a new and healing experience for any until now unknown parts which you may have to enter into a trusting experience of being heard and understood.
With ego states, there definitely is such a thing as feeling worse before you feel better. You do begin to feel their pain more intensely. But we all came into therapy because of poorly understood pain and suffering. If you can, try to approach the whole process with as much hope and trust as you can, keeping in mind that it can be a truly healing experience. I have had to tell myself the same thing many, many days! Your biggest assets are going to be an open, exploratory frame of mind, and as much trust in your therapist as you can muster. It's only now, after two and a half years, that I am beginning to know that discovering and sharing these ego-states with one's therapist is such a huge relief- and so healing.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 30, 2005, at 17:02:14
In reply to Re: Progress with the Ego States... » Pfinstegg, posted by littleone on August 29, 2005, at 22:07:11
It is controversial whether trauma is a requisite for the development of parts.
Post-traumatic theorists believe it is (by definition because they consider it to be a post-traumatic disorder by nature).
I would say...
That for someone who is especially sensitive by nature
Events could be interpreted as being traumatic
despite their perhaps not being of objectively 'sickening severity'.
Its the PERCEPTION of trauma that is important
(IMO)
Though I don't know how many would agree with me...
Posted by alexandra_k on August 30, 2005, at 17:08:00
In reply to Re: Progress with the Ego States... » littleone, posted by alexandra_k on August 30, 2005, at 17:02:14
And I'm particularly wary of theorists / clinicians who argue from the presence of alternative states to the existence of past trauma.
Because they consider the trauma MUST be there (as a matter of definition)
And the trouble with that attitude...
Is summed up by a half remembered quote from Freud:I no longer believed her protestations that nothing had happened to her. I told her that I knew that something HAD happened to her and that she would never be free of her pains so long as she withheld that from me... From that time foward my pressure always succeded in its effects
Is the encouragement to develop false memories...
And false memories can seem indistinguishable from real memories to the person experiencing them...And this perspective has been falsified anyway (I think...) because there ARE cases of people having parts without past trauma...
So IMO one is wise to be careful...
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 30, 2005, at 17:25:19
In reply to Re: Progress with the Ego States... » littleone, posted by alexandra_k on August 30, 2005, at 17:02:14
No disagreement from me on anything you have said. What is traumatic for one person may be much less so for another, more resilient person, who may also have a better support system in place at the time traumatic events occur. I also would love to believe that dissociation doesn't occur, but, sadly, I know that it does.
I wish with all my heart that I didn't have an ego state disorder (and the history of abuse which caused it), but I do. So I am determined to do the very best that I possibly can in facing all of it. I will do whatever it takes to heal from it.
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 30, 2005, at 17:38:22
In reply to Re: Progress with the Ego States..., posted by alexandra_k on August 30, 2005, at 17:08:00
Remember about Freud- he initially thought trauma played the major role in psychiatric illness, but later decided that it was a FANTASY of sexual trauma that made people(mostly women) ill. Despite all the valuable ways in which he is considered to have ushered in modern understanding of emotional illness, most therapists today think that real trauma-whether by emotional neglect, physical, emotional or sexual abuse- is a, or even the, major cause of emotional illness in adults.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 30, 2005, at 18:11:34
In reply to Re: Progress with the Ego States... » alexandra_k, posted by Pfinstegg on August 30, 2005, at 17:25:19
> I also would love to believe that dissociation doesn't occur, but, sadly, I know that it does.
I don't think it is a sane position to attempt to deny the phenomenon. Too many people meet criteria for one to be able to just ignore the phenomenon.
I guess what is controversial...
Is the CAUSE of the phenomenon...
Posted by alexandra_k on August 30, 2005, at 18:17:44
In reply to Re: Progress with the Ego States... » alexandra_k, posted by Pfinstegg on August 30, 2005, at 17:38:22
> Remember about Freud- he initially thought trauma played the major role in psychiatric illness,
yeah. i guess some people told him some fairly personal things...
... and then he generalised from *some people* to *all people* (as you do...)
and so then he starts up with:
'i know something has happened and if you don't tell me something pretty f*cking juicy you will never get better'...
... and then later on wonders why he is getting so many unsubstantiated accounts from *some* people. Generalising again from *some* to *all* (as you do) he concludes that:
>it was a FANTASY of sexual trauma that made people(mostly women) ill.
Does the sequence of that make sense?
And the moral of the story is...
> most therapists today think that real trauma-whether by emotional neglect, physical, emotional or sexual abuse- is a, or even the, major cause of emotional illness in adults.
Yes. Though to insist upon this in *all* cases is to encourage the development of false memories.
Thats why I don't think too much of considering history of trauma to carry a heavy explanatory load.
IMO diathesis can go a long way...
Make sense?
Posted by alexandra_k on August 30, 2005, at 18:21:50
In reply to Re: Progress with the Ego States... » Pfinstegg, posted by alexandra_k on August 30, 2005, at 18:17:44
Besides which the causation claim is false.
to say a causes b
just means that it CANNOT be the case that there be a and no b.and it is simply false that everyone who experiences trauma develops parts in response to that.
so trauma is not sufficient for the development of parts.
and i don't believe it is necessary either.diathesis...
imo diathesis is important...
Posted by Daisym on August 30, 2005, at 19:07:50
In reply to Re: Progress with the Ego States..., posted by alexandra_k on August 30, 2005, at 18:21:50
If this was a graduate thesis (which is isn't) we could say "a causes b" but we'd need to add in more globalizing language, "there are incidences of a causing b" which then doesn't limit us to a always causing b. And no where have we said that b can't be naturally occuring or a random mutation. What I've always been taught is, "if you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras." Meaning, look for the most likely cause, the most common cause, first. I think the research suggests that ego state disorders are typically the result of traumatic experiences, long or short, with a whole continueum of severity.
I think what is most important in this discussion are the following:
Not everyone who has been traumatized was abused. Trauma encompasses a whole host of things, including natural disasters.
The effects of trauma on any individual vary, the most important factor being the support the person received after it was over. This has been studied widely and it is shown to be especially true for children. If they have loving, caring adults who help them feel safe and understood, there are typically less long term effects.
Abuse doesn't always result in ego state disorders nor do ego state disorders always come from abusive situations. (Weren't we all taught never to use "all" "always" "none" or "never"?) But the research shows these things are commonly linked.I don't want to debate the whole false memory thing. I always ask myself who would want anyone to have these kinds of memories?! I'd take almost any other explanation for my problems. But, I will say that had I not experienced the regressive splitting myself, I wouldn't have understood it and I think I would have had a hard time really believing it could feel so real.
Posted by Daisym on August 30, 2005, at 19:41:04
In reply to Re: Progress with the Ego States... » Pfinstegg, posted by littleone on August 29, 2005, at 22:07:11
>>>>But at other times I think it's ridiculous to even consider it. It seems like such a severe and serious problem that could only be caused by terrible and chronic childhood abuse. My dad is a bit scary, but I just can't see that my parents were *that* bad.
***I use the word ridiculous all the time. What I know and what I feel don't match. A week or so ago I asked my therapist in all sincerity, "what happened to me was bad, right?" It felt like a stupid question but I was trying to justify for myself how bad I feel and how fragmented I get. He did answer me but more important he made it clear that how I FEEL about what happened is really the key. There are events that don't seem that bad yet they are the most upsetting for me. Maybe I didn't dissociate completely from them, who knows? But I guess what I'm trying to say is that your sensitivities don't have to match mine. It is how you feel about your experiences that matter. Not how you think you should feel. Or how anyone else judges "bad" or "bad enough."
I think when we look at our life's history, we can't forget that there are many other scary characters for kids, besides parents: bad teachers, mean children, weird neighbors, etc. Even grandparents can potentially cause fear or humiliation. And I think ongoing fear and humiliation causes the fragmentation, not the acts themselves.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 31, 2005, at 6:26:11
In reply to Re: Progress with the Ego States..., posted by Daisym on August 30, 2005, at 19:07:50
> I don't want to debate the whole false memory thing.
No, neither do I. I don't know that there is much to debate. Some memories are veridical and some aren't.
>I always ask myself who would want anyone to have these kinds of memories?!
Maybe someone who has had it suggested to them that that is the best / most likely explanation for their difficulties...
... And that if they continue to repress it they will never get better :-(
Its not a matter of 'wanting' memories. Its a matter of us just having mental pictures or whatever. And we interpret the picture as a 'dim copy of expereince'. We interpret the picture as a memory of something that has happened. And sometimes pictures just occur to someone because of past experiences in their lives... And other times pictures are suggested to someone, by a therapist for example...
I'm not at all trying to imply that many or most claims of abuse are false memories.
I'm not at all trying to imply that there isn't a correlation between trauma and dissociation.I'm just saying that one has to be careful.
I say this because I've had past experience with therapists pressing me for stuff they believe must have happened to me.
At this point...
I don't think they are right.
It might turn out that they are...
I dunno...I just know that some people have come up with claims by being led.
It has led to court cases and all.
Their claims have been shown to be unsubstantiated.
Dunno...
Posted by daisym on August 31, 2005, at 11:08:47
In reply to Re: Progress with the Ego States... » Daisym, posted by alexandra_k on August 31, 2005, at 6:26:11
I think it is just hard to talk about this stuff without feeling defensive. I think we all want to believe that we have a full grasp on our inner workings and motivations. We don't. The brain is so complicated and we are just now beginning to understand things.
But I guess the most important issue is not what you remember, or what might be there. It is how you feel and what the effects on your life are. Sorting through helps a lot of people, leaving it alone helps others. I just read a case study on prisoners who were tortured and they were much healthier when they didn't relive the trauma in therapy but instead worked on daily coping skills. I wish this were true for csa but the studies don't show this. It seems that if the feelings have been frozen they need at some point to be released and worked through. Better to do it with a therapist than have a rupture without support.
It all hurts.
I'm sorry you've felt people pushing their ideas on you. My therapist has never led, ever. He just tells me it is OK to tell him. I'm still startled sometimes about what I hear myself say. You know that old joke, "did I just say that out loud?" That's me in therapy.
Posted by littleone on August 31, 2005, at 21:37:10
In reply to Feeling like one while being many » littleone, posted by Pfinstegg on August 30, 2005, at 12:29:54
Thanks for that Pfinstegg. I found it very helpful. I just can't post much about it at the moment.
I did want to say though that it really comes through in your posts how much you care for your younger parts. I know you said it took you a long time to be able to do that. It's so touching to hear how much you care for them and nurture them and treat them so gently.
I'm glad you've reached a place where you are able to do that. I'm glad they've got someone looking after them now.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 1, 2005, at 3:02:21
In reply to Re: Progress with the Ego States... » alexandra_k, posted by daisym on August 31, 2005, at 11:08:47
once again...
my posts have been a bit off lately.this is a hard issue.
i imagine that there is so much around not wanting to believe it yourself and then being afraid that other people won't believe it etc etc and so it is understandable to feel defensive.its just that i've known people from the other side too.
and so i guess there is defensiveness from both sides.
and... i'm sorry.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2005, at 9:37:36
In reply to Feeling like one while being many » littleone, posted by Pfinstegg on August 30, 2005, at 12:29:54
It's OK. Alexandra. I didn't mean to speak for you, or anyone else, although it may have sounded that way. I don't think any two people in the world have had the same experiences in the same way, or the same experiences of their own nervous systems interacting with their own particular environments. Each person has a particular store of strength and resilience which is unique to them, and will affect how they deal with what life brings them. Even Daisy and I, who have perhaps documented our particular situations and therapy here in the most detail, are undoubtedly very different from one another, and have had experiences which, while they both involve csa, are not at all identical.
Posted by Annierose on September 1, 2005, at 14:10:25
In reply to Feeling like one while being many » littleone, posted by Pfinstegg on August 30, 2005, at 12:29:54
Pfinstegg -
I found your posts on this subject very helpful. Thank you for writing in such detail. I do believe that there in power in past pain, and that bringing these hurts into consciousness with a skilled and patient therapist, can lessen their burden on one's mental health. The process is indeed slow, but the rewards are great.
It's nice to see you posting again.
Annierose
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2005, at 17:41:25
In reply to Re: Feeling like one while being many » Pfinstegg, posted by Annierose on September 1, 2005, at 14:10:25
Thank you, Annie. Sometimes it's hard to post about ego state disorders, but I really like to, when I can, so that people will get more familiar with them, and realize that they aren't untreatable- quite the opposite, if you find the right therapist. And, by the way, I always especially love reading your posts!
Posted by Annierose on September 1, 2005, at 19:57:41
In reply to Re: Feeling like one while being many » Annierose, posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2005, at 17:41:25
This is the end of the thread.
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