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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 16:16:50
In reply to If it were next session, posted by Dinah on August 23, 2005, at 20:44:12
Maybe...
You are a bit upset about his not being upset... In the sense that if he really cared then he would feel upset that you (partly) think of him in that way
???
But... You have been seeing him for a long time. And I think he knows how important he is to you really.
Maybe... You are feeling numb / removed because that is a defence against something... Some other feeling...
I dunno.
Somebody said something to you somewhere and I thought yes! That sounds very plausible indeed. I'll see if I can find it...
Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 16:17:58
In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 16:16:50
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20050813/msgs/545035.html
Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 16:30:34
In reply to Re: If it were next session, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 16:17:58
It might be true that if I opened up a can of worms it would serve to draw me back in. But I don't think that it makes it inevitable now to do the hard work. My therapist will never push me. We'll just sit and chat forever. I'm certainly no more likely to tackle the big issues, and probably less.
I guess it's the feeling that he's indifferent and unengaged that's bothering me. You know, like he should say that he doesn't want me to grow away from him. Either that or that he seems so passive and ineffectual.
But I've always cared more than he does. And he's always been rather passive. That's what I like about him.
Other than completely forgetting the phone calls, I don't know what's up.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 17:29:14
In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 16:30:34
> It might be true that if I opened up a can of worms it would serve to draw me back in.
It might be true that if you opened a can of worms you would make headway on some issues ;-)
> My therapist will never push me. We'll just sit and chat forever.
Yeah... But is that really what you want / what would be best for you?
> I guess it's the feeling that he's indifferent and unengaged that's bothering me. You know, like he should say that he doesn't want me to grow away from him. Either that or that he seems so passive and ineffectual.Hmm. With respect to 'I don't want you to grow away from me', I don't know that it would be very professional for him to say that...
> But I've always cared more than he does. And he's always been rather passive. That's what I like about him.:-)
> Other than completely forgetting the phone calls, I don't know what's up.Maybe its about the 'do you see me as a person or just another client' issue...
Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 18:59:20
In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 17:29:14
I know he sees me as more than just another client. I really do.
And I know he wouldn't or couldn't say that he doesn't want me to grow and leave him.
But I still want him to say it.
I think we all do, don't we? At least in theory. We don't want it to be ok with them for us to leave, or even to partially leave.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 19:07:08
In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 18:59:20
> I know he sees me as more than just another client. I really do.
> And I know he wouldn't or couldn't say that he doesn't want me to grow and leave him.> But I still want him to say it.
> I think we all do, don't we? At least in theory. We don't want it to be ok with them for us to leave, or even to partially leave.But then we also want them to want us to get well enough and involved enough with people outside therapy so that we don't need them anymore...
I dunno... Haven't been in a good therapy relationship for long enough to get that stuff going on...
It sounds to me... And maybe I'm way off... Like a bit of a boundary thing. But then IMO the client vs person issue is a bit of a boundary thing as well...
And while we may think we want to cross that boundary we'd probably be mortified (or at the very least very hurt in the long run) if that boundary was crossed...
Because therapy is about YOU.
Your responses and your reactions and its not supposed to be about him.But you kind of do want it to be about him.
But then you probably don't want it to be really...And so it is complicated.
What would it mean to you if he didn't mind so very much?
What would it mean to you if he did?
Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 19:30:12
In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 19:07:08
> But then we also want them to want us to get well enough and involved enough with people outside therapy so that we don't need them anymore...
I just mean that I think that is why we go. Because we want to get better. And along the way we get a bit confused about what getting better means, and what we need to get better...
But that if they lose sight of that... Well... Then we really are wasting our money on them.
I mean... Sure its nice to think that they will be a little sad when we go. And that they will miss us. But OF COURSE they are going to when you have been such a big part of their life for so long.
I don't know.
And I do get that reason and emotion are often opposed...
Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:41:58
In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 19:07:08
Welllllll.... Ok it gets sticky here.
He does care if I see him. He would dislike it if I decreased my frequency, both because he cares about me and because he likes my fees. But he cares enough about me to have thought of me when negotiating for his new job, and tried to work it out so that he could continue to see me twice a week. And he'd be really sad if I quit completely I think.
Not that he'd say it like that, of course. But I know him well enough to know he'd be good and angry.
So it's not really that he wouldn't mind seeing me leave, which is probably why I'm mentally punishing him by thinking of not going.
And there's never been any intensity on his side. Never. The intensity is on my side. I don't want to lose the intensity, and he doesn't mind if I do. Because overall, it's better for him for me not to mind his leaving town, and not to call him between sessions. So if I'm not terribly intense, and need him less, and keep coming in twice a week that's probably his ideal. And since he never felt the intensity, he doesn't mind losing it, or not losing it really because he never had it. But he doesn't care that I lose it.
But it's important to me, and I think that ought to be reason enough for it to be important to him. There are some things that are important to me that just aren't important to him. He won't help me get back the daydreams. He won't help me get back this. And he doesn't even care enough to remember what I said about it.
It doesn't mean he doesn't care about me, but it does mean that he doesn't care about what I care about, and he's not willing to listen and help me recover the things I care about. He'll say he doesn't know how, but that's cr*p because there are plenty of things he doesn't know how to do but he still helps me. It's just the things I care about and he doesn't that he doesn't help me with.
He likes me well enough. He'd miss me if I were gone. And he cares about me. But if we disagree about what's important, he just tunes me out and becomes as dense as a post.
And I think they should matter if for no other reason than that they matter to me.
Although in general, if I didn't already know he wouldn't really like me to get all better and not need him, I'd be really really sad. Except if it's in his best interests for me not to see him anymore, like he's leaving town. Then he would want me to not need him.
Ok, there's been some boundary crossing over the years. But we've been together for ten years. And all the important boundaries are still in place. He's very firm about those. But the ones about caring about me as a person, not just as a client, and having mutual commitment, well, those are a bit breached. But they're stupid to begin with. Everyone deserves a therapist who cares about them as a person and would miss them if they left.
Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:45:21
In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:41:58
Maybe he's forgetting because he doesn't really want to hear it. Maybe he's being a big old jerky idiot because he thinks I'm moving farther from him and will terminate, and he doesn't want me to but can't say so.
Or am I stretching a bit.
Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:58:55
In reply to Hmm.... Maybe...., posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:45:21
I remember what he said immediately before I shut down. Out of all I had written, and all the replies, he chose the most optimistic statement to comment on.
Now why did that make me furious enough to be the little brat I've been being?
Posted by fallsfall on August 24, 2005, at 20:26:33
In reply to I remember now, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:58:55
Because you are afraid that you WILL get better, and that you WON"T need him anymore.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 20:31:08
In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 19:41:58
> And there's never been any intensity on his side. Never.
Maybe you are intense enough for the both of you :-)
>The intensity is on my side. I don't want to lose the intensity, and he doesn't mind if I do. Because overall, it's better for him for me not to mind his leaving town, and not to call him between sessions.
But what about you? Isn't it better for you to not mind (or at least not feel so very upset) about his leaving town? Isn't it better for you to not feel like you need to call between sessions?
???
> He won't help me get back the daydreams.Are the daydreams helpful or hurtful to you?
> It doesn't mean he doesn't care about me, but it does mean that he doesn't care about what I care about,But does he care about what is best for you???
Posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 20:32:07
In reply to Re: I remember now » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on August 24, 2005, at 20:26:33
> Because you are afraid that you WILL get better, and that you WON"T need him anymore.
Yeah.
What would it mean to you (Dinah) if you don't need him anymore????
Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 20:44:10
In reply to Re: I remember now, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 20:32:07
I've lost everyone, aside from my son, who is really important to emotional me.
I've lost Bunty, I've lost Harry, I've lost Daddy. I've lost one best friend to death, another to moving. If I get better and don't need him I'll lose the last thing that's important to me. If I even need him less or with less intensity, I'll be losing the last thing that's important to me.
I adored Bunty till the day she died. And I adored Harry till the day he died. And I adored Daddy till the day he died, even though I also hated that he hurt me. I adored them fiercely and without reserve. Adoring is important to me. Way more important than being adored. I just can't lose this.
Posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 20:47:34
In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 24, 2005, at 20:31:08
> > And there's never been any intensity on his side. Never.
>
> Maybe you are intense enough for the both of you :-)I never think of myself as being intense. I always think of myself as being cerebral. Do I seem intense here?
>
> >The intensity is on my side. I don't want to lose the intensity, and he doesn't mind if I do. Because overall, it's better for him for me not to mind his leaving town, and not to call him between sessions.
>
> But what about you? Isn't it better for you to not mind (or at least not feel so very upset) about his leaving town? Isn't it better for you to not feel like you need to call between sessions?
>
> ???No, it's not.
>
>
> > He won't help me get back the daydreams.
>
> Are the daydreams helpful or hurtful to you?I loved them, and they made me feel good.
>
> > It doesn't mean he doesn't care about me, but it does mean that he doesn't care about what I care about,
>
> But does he care about what is best for you???
>
>
He cares about what he thinks is best for me. It makes me want to do terrible things to show him that it's what I think that's important.
Posted by gardenergirl on August 25, 2005, at 5:43:06
In reply to Re: If it were next session, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 20:47:34
>
> I loved them, and they made me feel good.
> >
> > > It doesn't mean he doesn't care about me, but it does mean that he doesn't care about what I care about,
> >
> > But does he care about what is best for you???
> >
> >
> He cares about what he thinks is best for me. It makes me want to do terrible things to show him that it's what I think that's important.
>Dinah, reading this reminds me of how good parents care about their children enough to sometimes set boundaries that the child doesn't like. But it doesn't mean they don't care about what the child cares about. They just make a decision based on different/better judgement at the time.
Is this something you can talk more about with him?
gg
Posted by Dinah on August 25, 2005, at 9:22:21
In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on August 25, 2005, at 5:43:06
I think that talking about it with him is what causes the anger and really bad feelings. Because I know he'll never get it, and I know he'll never agree with me.
I have some thoughts on how to fix it, and I think I'll just go back to doing it on my own.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 15:13:15
In reply to Re: If it were next session, posted by Dinah on August 24, 2005, at 20:47:34
> I never think of myself as being intense. I always think of myself as being cerebral. Do I seem intense here?
Sometimes you can be fairly intense. AKA emotional you can be fairly intense...
> > But what about you? Isn't it better for you to not mind (or at least not feel so very upset) about his leaving town? Isn't it better for you to not feel like you need to call between sessions?> No, it's not.
Hmm...
I'm thinking autonomy vs paternalism. How much do you know whats best for you vs how much your t does... How much it is healthy for you to feel so dependent on certain people. I guess what I think is that you have talked before about SI if anything were to happen to your t. Do you think that is healthy? It is healthy to feel like your life is so dependent on another? And I think you feel hurt (about things being unrequited) at times. WAY hurt. Wouldn't you rather not feel hurt?
> It makes me want to do terrible things to show him that it's what I think that's important.(((Dinah)))
It might be worth talking about it. Saying that you need to believe that he HEARS what you are saying about this stuff at the very least... But I would say maybe to just aim for that rather than treating agreement as a criterion for understanding....
What is it about adoration?And why particular people? I mean... There have been a few individuals in your life that you have felt this way about. One goes... Another comes along. If you lose your t, then someone else will probably come along.
I am not sure that I understand very well...
Posted by Dinah on August 25, 2005, at 18:01:05
In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 15:13:15
Adored ones aren't washing machines either. :)
They come along seldom, and are treated as the treasures they are.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 19:10:29
In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 25, 2005, at 18:01:05
What do you think your life would be like if you didn't adore people in this way?
Why is that idea so abhorrent to you?
Posted by Dinah on August 25, 2005, at 19:15:23
In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 19:10:29
You say it as if it's a bad thing. :)
I wish I could do it with more people. I don't wish I couldn't do it with the handful of people I can be attached to.
I wish you a Bunty someday.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 19:22:57
In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 25, 2005, at 19:15:23
> You say it as if it's a bad thing. :)
Because I'm thinking of the consequences...
What are the consequences of it?
Coming back to the intense distress you feel at times...
Coming back to what you have said about what you might do if something happened to your therapist...And so I'm wondering... I'm wondering whether those consequences are healthy / unhealthy. And I mean that in the sense of you feeling better.
> I wish you a Bunty someday.
What do you get from it?
I don't really understand that...I mean... I figure it must be something pretty major (because you really don't want to work on changing it) so I'm trying to understand that.
But I'll admit... That I don't really...
Posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 19:36:46
In reply to Re: If it were next session » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 19:22:57
>I've lost Bunty, I've lost Harry, I've lost Daddy. I've lost one best friend to death, another to moving. If I get better and don't need him I'll lose the last thing that's important to me. If I even need him less or with less intensity, I'll be losing the last thing that's important to me.
If you get better... Then I don't think you will view it as a loss. Or, even if you do appreciate that you are losing some things you will also appreciate that you are gaining some other things and so the loss won't feel so bad.
Is it... That you think you need to feel that way about someone in order to deserve their affection or something like that??
(Tell me to go take a running jump whenever you like)
I'm just trying to understand...
I wonder...
Katherine Mansfield once said:
'Why is it that we are so fond of the strong emotions? ... Because they make us feel alive'
I think I do feel this way about people at times...
Nobody in the real world...
But I feel that way about my idealisation of some people...
And then I try not to idealise
Because if I idealise then I'll only come to devalue as I come to consider they have fallen short of my ideal
(And the consequence is bad feelings)
It does feel wonderful to contemplate the ideal though...
It helps me feel alive...
But if it interfeares with a connection you could have with other people
(e.g., your husband, your son)
Then I think that that is a shame...
Posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 19:38:51
In reply to Re: If it were next session » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on August 25, 2005, at 19:15:23
> You say it as if it's a bad thing. :)
I didn't mean to imply judgement either negative or positive. I was just asking a question...
> I wish I could do it with more people. I don't wish I couldn't do it with the handful of people I can be attached to.Maybe... There is only so much intensity of emotion / connection to go around... Using up that energy / effort on some people prevents those feelings being available for others...
> I wish you a Bunty someday.Thanks
(I think...)
Posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 20:00:32
In reply to Re: If it were next session, posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2005, at 19:36:46
>>I've lost Bunty, I've lost Harry, I've lost Daddy. I've lost one best friend to death, another to moving. If I get better and don't need him I'll lose the last thing that's important to me. If I even need him less or with less intensity, I'll be losing the last thing that's important to me.
>If you get better... Then I don't think you will view it as a loss. Or, even if you do appreciate that you are losing some things you will also appreciate that you are gaining some other things and so the loss won't feel so bad.
Sorry - I didn't appreciate how bad that might sound. I did NOT mean to imply that you won't view the deaths of those as a significant loss. I was meaning to be talking about if you no longer felt such adoration for your t...
Those other people / pets...
Loss is hard.
Really hard.
And I don't want to undermine that.
But... Its not the end of the world
Of your world
Time moves on...
Other attachments emerge.
And we always remember those who have gone
And they are irreplacable in a sense
But the connection
The sense of connection
Is something that we can feel for others too
And so it is not that when one person / pet goes that our life is not worth living anymore because we will never have the opportunity to feel that connection again
Or at least... It doesn't have to be that way.
And if it is that way...Well...
I feel sad about that.
:-(
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