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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by antigua on August 12, 2005, at 10:37:01
Part of this is in response to Daisy's bravery at speaking to her T about her anger and love for him but I didn't want to hijack her thread. Daisy, you said that you knew you could never have these feelings with a man in real life. That's my interest here.
I know I've mentioned it before, but I have a female T I've been seeing for about 15 years. She is great, and has been very helpful to me. I originally went over the depression I was feeling about losing a child, but we eventually worked our way to the csa I experienced, but wasn't even really aware of. I still have yet to get to the "it" that controls my intense desires of longing and fears of abandonment. I know my feelings, I recognize that when they come up, they are a symbol of something that needs to be paid attention to, etc. They did emerge when I was terminated preciptiously by a male T and while I could trace them to my father's abandonment, I still wasn't able to work through them to let them go. Because that's what I need to do, feel them and process them so I can let them go.
These feelings only arise for men, and it has only happened two or three times where I long so desperately to be comforted, etc. My mother wasn't very available to me when I was young because I had a very sick younger brother. But she did bond w/me and do all the right things when I was an infant--my T says so because of my relationship with my husband and children. There were many abandonment issues w/her as I was growing up and I'm working on dealing with the hurt that she didn't protect me from my father and kept sending me out to others as I grew up. I don't know where I stand w/her now, but I am still the perfect daughter to her and I don't ever rock the boat. I have never told her about the csa, and it's not something I plan on doing, at least right now.
These feelings have recently surfaced for a man I've known for several years. My heart tells me I am hopelessly in love, but my head says this is just a renactment of my feelings for my father, albeit in another form. I have a realtively good relationship with my husband and I have never broken our marriage vows, and at this point I don't plan on doing so (primarily because I don't think the other man is interested). But I was compelled to tell this man how I felt, in hopes that I could process my feelings.
So I have two sets of feelings for this man--the reality and the fantasy and the line has become seriously blurred. He was taken aback (naturally) by my feelings but he has been willing to speak w/me about them. I know that I am attracted to him because of his similarity to the "good" father I had, who I loved very very much. At this point, I know this man doesn't have feelings for me, it's all very one-sided.
So I have two questions for you guys. Do I try to work through these feelings with this man knowing that it could truly be disastrous, or should I just back off, and take my feelings back to the therapy room (once again) knowing that these are the intense feelings we describe for our Ts, and that this can't work in real life?
Secondly, since my T is female, do you think I will never be able to process these feelings with her? The feelings have never surfaced for her. I've experienced transference for her when I've needed her to be the good mother, and that worked out really well, but I even told her the other day that I needed the comfort from a man. Why? That shouldn't really make a difference, but I can't feel these feelings in the therapeutic situation. We've talked about this endlessly, but we always end up in frustrated.
so let me know what you think,
antigua
Posted by Tamar on August 12, 2005, at 13:19:44
In reply to Therapy vs. Real Life (LONG), posted by antigua on August 12, 2005, at 10:37:01
I’ve had a similar experience to the one you describe, about having transference-type feelings for a man who isn’t my husband. I think you were very brave to tell him! Are you relieved or disappointed that he doesn’t have feelings for you (or a bit of both)? In my case it was one of my colleagues… fortunately he didn’t have feelings for me or it might have been disastrous!
Since you asked, here’s what I think: I think you’d be better off working it out in therapy rather than trying to work through it with the man himself. He might not understand what it all means to you and he might not have the skills to help you (unless he’s a therapist!). And it could have quite a negative effect on your marriage.
Sometimes married people really do fall in love with another person, and it can be very difficult. It involves taking a long, hard look at the marriage. But it sounds as if you’re talking about something else…
As for the question about female or male Ts… I am certain that I would never have developed the same kind of intense erotic transference for a female T as I did for my male T. It’s nothing to do with my sexual orientation; it’s because my problems with the combination of sex and fear only come to the fore when I’m with men. I can really identify with when you say about needing comfort from a man; I’ve felt that way too.
For me, the transference I felt for my male T was incredibly useful (though staggeringly painful). But erotic transference is not an inevitable consequence of therapy with a male T, and if you went searching for it you might take a while to find it.
Have you talked to your T about the possibility that you might really need this transference in order to make progress? Or even about the possibility of working with a male therapist at the same time as your female therapist for a while? It’s an unconventional idea, but you really do seem to feel you’re missing something…
Tamar
Posted by Daisym on August 12, 2005, at 15:11:47
In reply to Therapy vs. Real Life (LONG), posted by antigua on August 12, 2005, at 10:37:01
***Part of this is in response to Daisy's bravery at speaking to her T about her anger and love for him but I didn't want to hijack her thread. Daisy, you said that you knew you could never have these feelings with a man in real life. That's my interest here.
Hmmm...I think I believe that I wouldn't allow these feeling IRL - they would be subject to squashing pretty quickly - but I would guess if I worked closely with or had a friendship with a soft spoken guy, they might develop. But I stay away from that on purpose.
***I know I've mentioned it before, but I have a female T I've been seeing for about 15 years. She is great, and has been very helpful to me. I originally went over the depression I was feeling about losing a child, but we eventually worked our way to the csa I experienced, but wasn't even really aware of. I still have yet to get to the "it" that controls my intense desires of longing and fears of abandonment. I know my feelings, I recognize that when they come up, they are a symbol of something that needs to be paid attention to, etc. They did emerge when I was terminated preciptiously by a male T and while I could trace them to my father's abandonment, I still wasn't able to work through them to let them go. Because that's what I need to do, feel them and process them so I can let them go.
Have you considered that you might not ever be able to "let them go?" That they make up part of who you are and where you've come from so they are intertwined with the good and the bad. I think you do need to feel them and process them but maybe it will be putting away them away, aware that they can and will be triggered now and then. I know this wasn't the gist of your post but I would like to discuss this some point in the future. I'm struggling with the concept myself right now.
***These feelings have recently surfaced for a man I've known for several years. My heart tells me I am hopelessly in love, but my head says this is just a renactment of my feelings for my father, albeit in another form. I have a realtively good relationship with my husband and I have never broken our marriage vows, and at this point I don't plan on doing so (primarily because I don't think the other man is interested). But I was compelled to tell this man how I felt, in hopes that I could process my feelings.
You were really brave to tell him, and maybe it isn't all a re-enactment. I think we have the capacity to love more than one person at a time, we make the choice to commit to just one. So I don't think you can just write off your feelings that easily. (Not that any of this is easy, I know.)
***So I have two questions for you guys. Do I try to work through these feelings with this man knowing that it could truly be disastrous, or should I just back off, and take my feelings back to the therapy room (once again) knowing that these are the intense feelings we describe for our Ts, and that this can't work in real life?
I think I'm with Tamar here, I'd take them back into therapy. There is a lot to look at, and I don't think you can work through these feelings with this man without getting really hurt or getting involved. Neither seems the option you would want. I don't know him, he might be capable of helping you sort through a few things, but I think you need to look at your marriage and your history, as well as the circumstances of this whole thing, and that is a lot to ask from someone who isn't your therapist, or at least your best friend.
***Secondly, since my T is female, do you think I will never be able to process these feelings with her? The feelings have never surfaced for her. I've experienced transference for her when I've needed her to be the good mother, and that worked out really well, but I even told her the other day that I needed the comfort from a man. Why? That shouldn't really make a difference, but I can't feel these feelings in the therapeutic situation. We've talked about this endlessly, but we always end up in frustrated.
This is a really hard question. Most of the literature suggests that women with csa issues typically chose women therapists and do better with them. We know on this board that it is a huge mix. I have felt both maternal and paternal things for my therapist, so I'm not convinced that gender has much to do with it. That said, I didn't pick a woman because I've never been able to be vulnerable with a woman, I keep trying to prove to them (to my mother) that I can take care of myself and that is OK. I've never had intense feelings of need and want come up with women either. The question is really how long would it take you to trust a male, given your past experience with a male therapist, in order to sort through this.
I have another idea...it is sort of way out there...but maybe this is where group therapy, led by a male therapist, would be useful. You would have the safety you need, by virtue of the numbers, and the contact with other men in an intimate setting. I don't know, just a thought.
This is a hard one, because you've already tried a number of times to sort through it with your own therapist. What does she recommend? Can she recommend a guy to consult with, someone she knows is gentle and understanding? I'd loan you mine, but I'm pretty sure he is going to be very busy the next few weeks holding me together.
Hugs, Daisy
Posted by antigua on August 12, 2005, at 15:37:00
In reply to Re: Therapy vs. Real Life (LONG) » antigua, posted by Tamar on August 12, 2005, at 13:19:44
Tamar, thank you for your response. I appreciate it.
"I’ve had a similar experience to the one you describe, about having transference-type feelings for a man who isn’t my husband. I think you were very brave to tell him! Are you relieved or disappointed that he doesn’t have feelings for you (or a bit of both)?"
***It may have been brave or very stupid, but I was so selfish I had to unleash my burden. I think I'm relieved he doesn't have feelings, but I think the fact that I knew he was unavailable made him that much more attractive.
"you’d be better off working it out in therapy rather than trying to work through it with the man himself. He might not understand what it all means to you and he might not have the skills to help you (unless he’s a therapist!). And it could have quite a negative effect on your marriage."
***you're probably more than right, but I can't seem to work these feelings out in therapy, no matter how much I try.
"But erotic transference is not an inevitable consequence of therapy with a male T, and if you went searching for it you might take a while to find it."
***In all truthfulness, I wouldn't start all over again w/a male. I think I've come so far that it would be far too intrusive on my life and what I really want is my life back now!I have talked to my T a little bit about my feeling that I need to work this through with a man, and I guess I'll just keep it up.
thanks again,
antigua
Posted by antigua on August 12, 2005, at 15:50:02
In reply to Re: Therapy vs. Real Life (LONG) » antigua, posted by Daisym on August 12, 2005, at 15:11:47
As always Daisy, thanks for your help.
"but I would guess if I worked closely with or had a friendship with a soft spoken guy, they might develop. But I stay away from that on purpose."
***he is a very soft spoken guy and when I first met him years ago, my internal alarm went off and said stay away from him, he's trouble for you. I usually can spot them and do stay away from them, but something happened this time.
"Have you considered that you might not ever be able to "let them go?"
***Yes, Daisy, I have, and all those times I threaten to quit therapy, it has been about me thinking I've gotten as far as I can and that I need to bandage the wounds and move on. Unfortunately, they come back years later and the danger is even greater to me because the feelings are still unresolved. If I could be sure that when I shut them down that they would stay away I'd be tempted to do it, but of course there are no guarantees. I shut them down twice before and here I still am."I think I'm with Tamar here, I'd take them back into therapy. There is a lot to look at, and I don't think you can work through these feelings with this man without getting really hurt or getting involved. Neither seems the option you would want."
***You're right, I'm not so worried about losing the relationship w/him as I am in dealing with myself in the aftermath. I do not want to feel the shame, humiliation, rejection, spiraling out of control downward that I feel with the csa and I can't guarantee how this man will react.
"The question is really how long would it take you to trust a male, given your past experience with a male therapist, in order to sort through this."
***I'd be dead before that; I just don't see me opening up all over again.
I'll think about the group therapy and ask my T what she thinks. I did go off and do EMDR last year with her permission, but it really seemed to hurt our relationship.
Thanks again. I will think about all this and remind myself that I'm a good woman and that I really have to protect myself.
antigua
Posted by antigua on August 12, 2005, at 16:00:53
In reply to Re: Therapy vs. Real Life (LONG) » Daisym, posted by antigua on August 12, 2005, at 15:50:02
My T never tells me not to do something. She was surprised that the man was willing to help me sort through these feelings and she was supportive of that (maybe only because I would have to bring it back to therapy when it fell apart), but she did feel that it would be disastrous if the relationship were to turn sexual.
antigua
This is the end of the thread.
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