![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 35. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by daisym on June 22, 2005, at 0:45:42
I wasn't sure if I should put this in the thread about "In Session" but...
I made this whole speech about therapy and my therapist to Fallsfall last night but darn if I could remember most of it when I got to therapy today. What I did remember was that I wanted to ask him questions about him...and I wanted to sort through why we talk about how I feel about things that I can't change, like his vacation. I also told him I was tired of leaving sessions upset and in pieces, it was too hard to keep trying to put myself back together.
He could tell that I was in my head today, I wanted to intellectualize things. He pretty much let me. He gave me this speech about why it was better for me not to know too much about him, and I gave him a look. He said, "You think I'm rationalizing." I said, "You are." He nodded and gave me the speech anyway. I said that I thought keeping his personal life out of the room protected him too, and he agreed. He said he thought I knew lots about him, the important stuff, just not the concrete details. Like I know who he is and how he felt about things. But he said he would answer most questions I wanted to ask, if we talked about why I wanted to know. I thought about the thread (above) what you wished you didn't know about your therapist.
Yesterday we talked about a sexual dream I had about him. It was a complicated dream and it just sort of popped out of my mouth when talking about how I felt about him. I was trying to figure out why I was so upset about his vacation coming up. I didn't mean to tell him about it, it just came out. So today I picked up this thread, in my most intellectual voice, said that these feelings were very confusing for me because I wasn't sure what they meant or even what concrete wishes they represented. I said I NEVER feel these kinds of feelings, I don't allow it. So this was all pretty terrifying. He said he could see why it would be.
What I did know was that they made me wonder stuff I'd never wondered about before. Like, "do you hold hands with your wife when you are walking together." OR, "how do you handle knowing that some of her clients might have sexual feelings about her and how does she handle it about your clients having these feelings for you?" You know what his next question was right?
He asked me, "What do you think these questions mean?" I said that I thought the hand holding question was my way of asking him if he was gentle. He said, "In bed?" I said I guess, but more than that, overall, as a husband. He said, "What do you think the answer is?" I said I would guess he holds hands. He said he does, but not all the time. Then he wanted to know why I was bringing his wife into the room with us, was I worried about how she would view my feelings? We talked about my attempt to build another triangle (a reenactment) similar to my mom, my dad and myself. It got uncomfortable and I moved away from it. We ended up talking about what he was hoping for me to get out of therapy and what I was hoping for.
I'm in such a confused place. I told him I didn't know if I wanted him to be my mommy or if I wanted to try to seduce him. Because the feelings are strong, yet fleeting. And they won't stay one way or another. Urg. I guess I got one of the things I wanted, I didn't leave upset or in pieces. I told him perhaps I was still testing him, ("will you leave me now? How about now? What about this, will you leave me NOW?") especially since he was leaving. He asked me if he passed the test today...and of course he did.
So, why does my chest hurt tonight and how come I feel so completely alone? I'd really like to hear how you guys talk about your intense feelings, especially if they have sexual overtones, for your therapist and what you did/are doing about them. Is it more acceptable to have childlike longings to be taken care of than it is to have these more adult type feelings?
Posted by All Done on June 22, 2005, at 1:37:27
In reply to Confusing Session, posted by daisym on June 22, 2005, at 0:45:42
Hi Daisy,
Wow. I think I had almost the same conversation with my T last week. I'm not exactly sure why now, but lately I've been having more sexual thoughts about and feelings toward my T. Since they've been kind of frequent and intense, I figured it was time to talk to him about it again.
I'm as frank as I can manage with him right there looking at me. I don't give too many details, though. Lots of euphemisms and very little eye contact.
Anyway, your last question, "is it more acceptable to have childlike longings to be taken care of than it is to have these more adult type feelings?" was something we kind of talked about (maybe more him than me). I would have to say that I don't know the childlike longings are actually separate of the adult type feelings. I believe the childlike longings are just manifesting themselves in a way we can understand better as adults. Sexual intimacy is generally an acceptable and healthy way for an adult to feel close to someone. Closer than with most anything else. So are childlike longings more acceptable than adult type feelings? I think in this instance we're talking about the same thing just presented in a different way. If your T can handle it, which it sounds like he can, both are probably equally acceptable. Just gotta figure out what it is that you are *really* wanting. Piece of cake, right? ;)
BTW, I find it kind of interesting that you said "childlike longings to be taken care of" as opposed to simply childlike longings. Perhaps you just meant it in general, though?
I'm sorry you're feeling so alone, (((Daisy))). Was this your last session before his vacation?
Hugs,
Laurie
Posted by Dinah on June 22, 2005, at 1:50:20
In reply to Confusing Session, posted by daisym on June 22, 2005, at 0:45:42
I'm afraid I can't be any real help to you on this issue, Daisy, other than to say that the literature doesn't consider this any less acceptable than any other sort of feeling you might have for your therapist. But it does sound very painful to you, and I'm sorry for that.
(((( Daisy ))))
A safe cyberhug, with no worries about noses bumping.
Posted by annierose on June 22, 2005, at 7:09:22
In reply to Re: Confusing Session » daisym, posted by Dinah on June 22, 2005, at 1:50:20
Daisy,
You know how lots of babblers tell you how amazing your T is? Well, you are amazing yourself. So courageous. The honesty, the words, everything. I wish I could be so frank with my T.
When you expose those innermost longings and feelings with your T, I think only good things can follow. You open your heart to new possiblities.
Sending good wishes to your side of the country.
Annierose
Posted by LadyBug on June 22, 2005, at 8:24:19
In reply to Confusing Session, posted by daisym on June 22, 2005, at 0:45:42
Daisy
Don't you hate it when you want to know personal things about your T. and they have to ask why, why and why somemore? And when they don't give you the answer you want you feel hurt?
When is he going on vacation? I know how hard that is when you depend on your sessions to get through life. How long will he be gone?
I know we can be here for you. I hope it all works out before he leaves and when he is gone you will feel at peace with your connection you have with him. Why does it have to be so hard????Hugs
LadyBug
Posted by cricket on June 22, 2005, at 8:34:18
In reply to Confusing Session, posted by daisym on June 22, 2005, at 0:45:42
Hi Daisy,
I completely understand the conflicting desires. Some child parts of you want your therapist's nuruturing and the adult parts want him to find you attractive as a woman. And if your switches are anything like mine, it can change from minute to minute. I go through the same thing. I want to be sucking my thumb on the floor next to his chair or I want to be undressing him.
Maybe because I am more fragmented than you are or at least more used to seeing myself in fragments, it doesn't feel so confusing for me. I just know Oh that's Baby or that's Ruby that wants that.
Maybe as you get more used to your different parts it will be less confusing for you too. I hope this helps. Please feel free to ask me anything else about it.
I think the fact that you talk about his wife with him is very interesting. I think that in many ways it shows how stable your relationship with your T is. My T and I are not yet at that point, if we ever do get there. But one time I told my T that I didn't trust my boss because I overheard a phone conversation he was having with his wife and he was nasty, condescending and disrespectful to her. A couple of sessions later, I came in and sat in the waiting room but my T's door was open and he was on the phone (not unusual) but this time he came right to his doorway, a couple of feet from my ear, and continued the phone conversation, which was obviously a very sweet and loving conversation with his wife.
He never talks on the phone within my earshot like that so it felt planned in some way - "see you can trust me, listen how nice I am to my wife." It was almost funny.
I've been feeling alone lately too Daisy. I have no one IRL who knows I am like this. Not even my husband. I am so glad I have Babble.
Take care and keep posting if it helps.
Posted by pinkeye on June 22, 2005, at 13:59:07
In reply to Confusing Session, posted by daisym on June 22, 2005, at 0:45:42
Both of you are just pure amazing..I really look forward to your posts nowadays.. You are just so amazing with words and the way you write. Great Job Daisy.
And your T is solid gold. I cannot emphasize more how good he is.. Especially the part about not beign afraid of talk about his wife, and his asking "In Bed?".. I think he is a solid guy. I am really glad for you that you found him. And I really think he cares very deeply about you.
Your feelings of childishness and adult like feelings are normal.. I also feel that childlike longings are more acceptable to me in my own mind than my adult feelings.. possibly because rejection and not being able to act on the feelings is easier with parental feelings than adult like feelings. I have had both.. and I still do.
I don't know what to share about how I spoke of all these with my ex T.. When I saw him face to face, he was good at understanding and validating my feelings. But emails are a bummer.. All my efforts only ended up in vain.. I didn't get much of a response for any confessions.. I really wish my ex T had been more like yours..
Posted by Aphrodite on June 22, 2005, at 15:12:21
In reply to Confusing Session, posted by daisym on June 22, 2005, at 0:45:42
> I also told him I was tired of leaving sessions upset and in pieces, it was too hard to keep trying to put myself back together.I would be interested in how he responded to this. Are you feeling like that all the time or just lately since this subject has arisen?
>
>We talked about my attempt to build another triangle (a reenactment) similar to my mom, my dad and myself. It got uncomfortable and I moved away from it.Maybe you should gently return to this? If you're anything like me, wanting to divert and change topics means I have gotten dangerously close to something powerful.
>
>
> So, why does my chest hurt tonight and how come I feel so completely alone? I'd really like to hear how you guys talk about your intense feelings, especially if they have sexual overtones, for your therapist and what you did/are doing about them. Is it more acceptable to have childlike longings to be taken care of than it is to have these more adult type feelings?I've not had sexual feelings for my T, so I can't answer the question from experience, but I've often thought about how my child-like connection to him -- the way I act, the words I use -- could very easily be confused with sexual adult interaction. It seems like the line between your adult feelings for your T and your kid needs for him could blur. When I feel connected to my T, I'll tell him that I am going to miss him if there is some kind of break, I'll tell him how much I care about him, when things have been very hard and he's said something touching, I'll tell him that I love him and he often reciprocates all of the things I said. Of course, my body and my voice and all of my gestures are that of a six year old talking to a caring mommy. But the contents are very similar to what lovers would say and do. I can see how easily it could morph into transfered sexual feelings and go back and forth. I think Freud was onto something:)
I got a little long-winded, but I was trying to make a point about how understandable it would be that the feelings interchange fleetingly. I know it's hard for you to not have control over this, but I am proud of you for telling him. Your T sounds like a Rock of Gibraltar and he can be steady as he absorbs your pain and confusion.
I hope things get better -- I hate, hate, hate that falling to pieces after therapy phenomenon. It's so unpredicatable:( Wish I had some words of advice about that, but I'm right there with you. It's miserable and lonely. Let's hang in there together.
Posted by Tamar on June 22, 2005, at 15:20:02
In reply to Confusing Session, posted by daisym on June 22, 2005, at 0:45:42
Hey Daisy,
I can imagine it’s pretty confusing. Especially that the feelings are strong but fleeting, and probably changing in nature from one moment to the next.
I can’t tell you how I talked about my feelings, because I didn’t talk. But I can tell you what happened when I didn’t talk about my feelings.
My transference started with sexual feelings, so I didn’t go through a paternal or maternal thing first. And once I’d figured out what it was (after spending a few days thinking I’d fallen in love) I started trying to figure out what to do about it.
Everything I read suggested I should talk to my therapist about it. I really didn’t want to. For several weeks I was consumed with longing for him between sessions, but when I was actually in session with him the problem didn’t seem too awful and I couldn’t imagine confessing. And I was sure his response would feel like a rejection and that I’d feel worse.
Eventually I decided I did want to tell him. Sort of. Maybe. After all, I trusted him, and many therapists seem to be able to handle that sort of thing with sensitivity. So a few times I started skirting the issue in session with the intention of telling him. But every time I did this he seemed to head me off at the pass. I thought either I was being paranoid, or I was approaching it wrong and he expected me to be able to come right out and say it. I really felt as if he was discouraging me from talking about it. And because of that I thought he must have guessed how I felt, and I concluded that he considered my feelings to be disgusting and unacceptable.
Recently I’ve come to think perhaps he had a theoretical orientation that involved keeping transference from becoming the focus of therapy (because it was short term therapy). But at the time I didn’t know about that possibility, and feeling unable to talk about it was enormously confusing and distressing. I continued to believe he thought I was utterly repulsive until he shook my hand in our very last session. Only when he actually touched me did I begin to think perhaps I wasn’t as untouchable and revolting to him as I’d assumed. And therefore it was only after termination that I finally understood I could have talked to him and he would have accepted whatever I had to say.
I didn’t want to make this post all about me. I simply realize how wonderful your situation is. Your therapist is not only aware of the likelihood of your developing sexual feelings towards him, but can also encourage you to talk about those feelings. Nothing you can say will shock him. Nothing you can say will disgust him. He’s never going to think your feelings are inappropriate. He’s never going to be overwhelmed by the intensity of your feelings. I firmly believe he will help you to feel that any feelings of desire for him are acceptable and understandable, and that he will help you process them.
From reading your post, I think you’re doing everything right. Keep being honest with him; it’s the best way to let him help you. You ask if it’s more acceptable to have childlike longings to be taken care of than to have more adult feelings… well, I’d say it might possibly feel less acceptable to you when you have adult feelings (like you said: you don’t allow it). But it’s not less acceptable to your therapist.
Although I never told my therapist about my feelings for him, I did find it extremely useful to work through those feelings on my own. So although it was extremely painful, I was ultimately glad that I had the feelings and that I had the resources to explore them and figure out what they meant to me. My therapist helped me with them indirectly by helping me learn to think psychologically. But I do feel it would be better to work through them with a therapist (which is why, if I do therapy again, it’ll be long term therapy with plenty of scope for transference).
I know it’s a scary place. But I’m certain your therapist will help make it safer.
Tamar
Posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:00:45
In reply to Re: Confusing Session » daisym, posted by All Done on June 22, 2005, at 1:37:27
Laurie,
I have two more sessions before he leaves. :(
I think I specifically meant childlike longings to be taken care of. This is something that never happened for me, I was practically running the whole household at 9. My mom worked 6 days a week and my babysister was not even 2 yet. I think there is a lot of stuff in here about protection and not being invisible too.
It is hard to bring up these things, isn't it? If you want to share more, I'd be interested in knowing what you are deciding all this means. The more I try to think about it, the more it slips away. So I don't know what I want. I guess this is resistance at its finest.
I don't know if this will come up today. Little daisy is having a hard time with him leaving and I'm just gonna let her out fullforce (I think.) It is too exhausting holding the lid on.
Yeah -- big talk from a big chicken. We'll see...
Posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:03:07
In reply to Re: Confusing Session » daisym, posted by Dinah on June 22, 2005, at 1:50:20
Thanks for the non-nose hug, Dinah. I keep reading that this sort of thing happens, I think my confusion is that it feels like is has partway happened. I'm having dreams and questions are popping up, but I don't have fantasies of us together that way.
Besides, I hate, hate, hate that I'm a cliche.
*sigh*
Posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:06:15
In reply to Re: Confusing Session, posted by annierose on June 22, 2005, at 7:09:22
ooh, Annie, I feel anything but brave. I told my therapist yesterday that I'm like Pavlov's dogs, so well trained that I don't hold much back anymore. Something about sitting down on that couch that pushes aside my pride. And then I leave and think, "I can't believe I said that!"
He told me yesterday that one of the most valuable things for me about therapy is having this safe place to say anything I'm thinking or feeling without worry. He thinks everyone needs it and he keeps pointing out how therapy can be a refueling station. I guess I'm an SUV because I need to refuel a lot!
I appreciate your support.
Posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:10:06
In reply to Re: Confusing Session, posted by LadyBug on June 22, 2005, at 8:24:19
I really wish I knew why it has to be so hard. I guess it doesn't. If we could stay on the surface and work on the symptoms and not the cause it wouldn't hurt this much.
I don't mind him not answering questions but I feel like I'm breaking the rules when I ask them. Like it isn't polite and I'm going to get my hand slapped. He refuses most of the time to pick up on my subtle hints and waits for me to directly ask for something. My biggest problem is that I really don't know why the questions flare up -- isn't it HIS job to know?!
Vacation will be nearly two weeks. He's back 7/5. I wish I was as small as I felt so I could go in his pocket.
Posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:14:04
In reply to Re: Confusing Session » daisym, posted by cricket on June 22, 2005, at 8:34:18
Cricket,
I know about keeping it all hidden IRL. I can't imagine trying to explain any of this to someone who isn't in the middle of it too. I have a hard time explaining it to myself.
Do you tell your therapist that you want to undress him sometimes? If so, what does he say? I love your story about the phone call. I think it is sweet that he is willing to try different things to build your trust.
I'll keep posting if you will.
Posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:18:48
In reply to You and your T both rock :-) Amazing !!! » daisym, posted by pinkeye on June 22, 2005, at 13:59:07
I'm sure it was hard to "confess" via email -- no body language to interpret or gauge so how do you know their reaction?
I think the possibility of rejection comes into play here, I'm just not sure how yet. I keep thinking if I don't *really* want to have sex with him, what part of any of this would feel like rejection? But it is there anyway.
I guess I understand the origins of the childlike feelings but I don't these others. Which makes it hard for me to admit having them.
Someone else asked for their personal behavior explanation book. I need one too!
Posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:28:40
In reply to Re: Confusing Session, posted by Aphrodite on June 22, 2005, at 15:12:21
> I also told him I was tired of leaving sessions upset and in pieces, it was too hard to keep trying to put myself back together.
<<<I would be interested in how he responded to this. Are you feeling like that all the time or just lately since this subject has arisen?
******I think I'm feeling like this because I can't get to what I want to say until the last 10 minutes and then of course I'm frustrated that I have to stop. He said we could try to stop sooner so we could talk about stopping, but he worries that I'll be even more frustrated with being cut off. I think it has a lot to do with feeling so lonely and left out and even a bit jealous. I haven't felt these things before about his other clients or his "real" life. I need to get a handle on them quick!>We talked about my attempt to build another triangle (a reenactment) similar to my mom, my dad and myself. It got uncomfortable and I moved away from it.
Maybe you should gently return to this? If you're anything like me, wanting to divert and change topics means I have gotten dangerously close to something powerful.
****I'm sure we need to return to this. I just couldn't. It is too fresh a wound with seeing them both together last week. I can't even write about this, I fall asleep at the key board or have to get up and do something else. The anxiety goes sky high.
You weren't long winded at all. I appreciate you sharing your experience. I do think it all gets easily confused. The question on the table is "Is sex currency, and if it is, how am I willing to use it?" I really need to figure out the answer to that one.I'm counting on you to help me get through the next two weeks. I keep telling him I'll be "fine" --but the not so secret truth is that I don't think I will. I think I'll be a mess. Who knows?
Posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:30:09
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (long) » daisym, posted by Tamar on June 22, 2005, at 15:20:02
You said some things that really struck a cord with me. I want to respond more fully, but I'm off to therapy just now. I'll be back.
And, no worries about telling your story. That is what I asked for!
Posted by All Done on June 22, 2005, at 16:41:16
In reply to Re: Confusing Session » All Done, posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:00:45
> I have two more sessions before he leaves. :(
I know it's not the same, but we'll be here for you.
> I think I specifically meant childlike longings to be taken care of. This is something that never happened for me, I was practically running the whole household at 9. My mom worked 6 days a week and my babysister was not even 2 yet. I think there is a lot of stuff in here about protection and not being invisible too.From reading your other posts, I figured that's what you meant, but I didn't want to presume. I think it's great that you've pinpointed you're desire to be taken care of. That's a big step. Although I must admit, even though I think I know what some of my feelings are really about, it hasn't changed anything, yet. I'm not sure what's supposed to happen next.
I think your T is doing a pretty good job of taking care of you. It's probably just going to take awhile for you to feel comfortable accepting that care since you aren't used to it.
> It is hard to bring up these things, isn't it? If you want to share more, I'd be interested in knowing what you are deciding all this means. The more I try to think about it, the more it slips away. So I don't know what I want. I guess this is resistance at its finest.
Well, part of where I think my feelings are coming from is a longing to be wanted. My mom didn't allow my dad to do or say anything that she may have considered inappropriate. With her history of abuse, the list was long. He never told me he loved me, gave me hugs, or told me I was pretty (among other things). Nothing that may have made me feel wanted by him. Apparently, according to my T, little girls need this from their dads (to a safe extent, of course).
During my last session, my T asked me if I thought my dad wanted me before I was born. I knew that answer right away. I don't think he did. He was more than happy to go along with anything my mom wanted (or demanded) like having a baby, but I never got the feeling much of what he did was because he wanted to. Except his drinking, of course. Don't get me wrong, I think he loved me in his own way after I got here, but...
> I don't know if this will come up today. Little daisy is having a hard time with him leaving and I'm just gonna let her out fullforce (I think.) It is too exhausting holding the lid on.
I think it's important to let little daisy say what she needs to say before he leaves. That way, he can help before the lid pops off on its own.
> Besides, I hate, hate, hate that I'm a cliche.
I know that feeling all to well. The first time I told him about a dream I had about him that was quite sexual, I was whining by the end of the session that I'm just an open book and he must have me completely figured out already. I felt like he could have looked at a textbook to find out what my next session would be like. Although I did tell him that I wouldn't be falling in love with him anytime soon ;).
Good luck, Daisy. Lots of hugs to you and little daisy.
Laurie
Posted by messadivoce on June 22, 2005, at 17:40:59
In reply to Confusing Session, posted by daisym on June 22, 2005, at 0:45:42
I've turned your post around in my mind all day, and I have a few thoughts.
I admire you so much for having the courage to ask questions about your T's life, even if you don't get the answers you want. I admire his directness with his question, "In bed?". I can imagine how matter-of-factly he must have posed it. I can relate to curiosity about his marriage, and I envy my former T's wife for the tenderness I am sure she gets from him. Just being able to recall how gentle and tender he was with me, makes me think how much of a wealth of it he must have with her.
Do you think you envy the tenderness he must give to her during intimacy, without wanting the actual sex? I know I envy my T's wife that way. I guess the danger comes when we are willing to have sex to get that intimacy, and when our T's or other men take advantage of that.
I was not brave enough to discuss sex in the context of "us" (my T and me). Even as I write this post I am blushing red. I know he would have handled it with utmost sensitivity, and we would not have cease analyzing it until my *real" desire was uncovered, as opposed to just sex and/or intimacy. Which is just the way it should be.
Damn that transference.
I hope this makes some sort of sense.
Posted by daisym on June 22, 2005, at 23:52:12
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (long) » Tamar, posted by Daisym on June 22, 2005, at 16:30:09
>>>>>>. And once I’d figured out what it was (after spending a few days thinking I’d fallen in love) I started trying to figure out what to do about it.
<<<<OK, that is a HUGE question for me -- how DO you know whether you've fallen in love or not? I've been "married" to my husband since I was 18. I had one serious boyfriend before that and we went as far as kissing. (poor guy) I had a few other dates, but I drank my way through my senior year of high school so I don't remember much about them. I think the summer between high school and college was the only time I "experimented" sexually, but only when I'd been drinking ALOT. Let's just say that I usually kept all of my clothes on...
>>>>>>>Everything I read suggested I should talk to my therapist about it. I really didn’t want to. For several weeks I was consumed with longing for him between sessions, but when I was actually in session with him the problem didn’t seem too awful and I couldn’t imagine confessing. And I was sure his response would feel like a rejection and that I’d feel worse.
<<<<<The rejection things is a huge part of this. Having these feelings has triggered off the list of the things I don't like about myself physically, stuff I've always hated as well as stuff I thought I'd gotten OK with. In my head, I'm telling myself that part of the reason it isn't OK to have these feelings is that he deserves to have some sweet, beautiful young thing offer herself, that this is ludicrous that I would even think that he would be attracted to me. (Not that I think he is, but when I try to figure out what I want, part of that is him caring about me, more than the client stuff, and I don't think he does/could because I'm not attractive enough. Does that make any sense?) I guess it feels very egotistical and presumptuous.
<<<<<Eventually I decided I did want to tell him. Sort of. Maybe. After all, I trusted him, and many therapists seem to be able to handle that sort of thing with sensitivity. So a few times I started skirting the issue in session with the intention of telling him. But every time I did this he seemed to head me off at the pass. I thought either I was being paranoid, or I was approaching it wrong and he expected me to be able to come right out and say it. I really felt as if he was discouraging me from talking about it. And because of that I thought he must have guessed how I felt, and I concluded that he considered my feelings to be disgusting and unacceptable.
>>>>>OUCH. I'm sorry things happened this way. I did tell my therapist that I was worried that he would tell me he needed me to see someone else, that he couldn't cope with my feelings. I guess I'm lucky, when I skirt issues, he will help me bring them out. When I skirt questions though, he won't answer unless asked straight out.
<<<<<Recently I’ve come to think perhaps he had a theoretical orientation that involved keeping transference from becoming the focus of therapy (because it was short term therapy). But at the time I didn’t know about that possibility, and feeling unable to talk about it was enormously confusing and distressing. I continued to believe he thought I was utterly repulsive until he shook my hand in our very last session. Only when he actually touched me did I begin to think perhaps I wasn’t as untouchable and revolting to him as I’d assumed. And therefore it was only after termination that I finally understood I could have talked to him and he would have accepted whatever I had to say.
>>>>>>I'm sure you are probably right about his theoretical orientation. But since you didn't know that at the time, I'm sure it was painful. It must have gotten in the way for a while. I too believe I'm untouchable but it is because I think I'm scary. I guess I think he thinks that if he touches me, I'll REALLY have transference. That story about the woman who was needy about her hugs and her therapist labeled her greedy really sticks with me. I think I'm emotionally taxing enough.
<<<<<I didn’t want to make this post all about me. I simply realize how wonderful your situation is. Your therapist is not only aware of the likelihood of your developing sexual feelings towards him, but can also encourage you to talk about those feelings. Nothing you can say will shock him. Nothing you can say will disgust him. He’s never going to think your feelings are inappropriate. He’s never going to be overwhelmed by the intensity of your feelings. I firmly believe he will help you to feel that any feelings of desire for him are acceptable and understandable, and that he will help you process them.
>>>>>>I want to wail at you, "HOW DO YOU KNOW HE IS NEVER GOING TO BE OVERWHELMED?"...sorry, didn't mean to shout. I do know I'm lucky. I wish I could claim to have chosen carefully but I had no idea what I needed when I started. He just "felt" right. Lucky for me he believes in long term therapy. Today he promised to come back from his vacation because "we aren't finished working." He said, "You know that right? I'm in this with you to the end..." My brain knows. My gut is all twisted up. I'm so afraid he will get perspective and realize just how intense this need for him is.
<<<<<<<From reading your post, I think you’re doing everything right. Keep being honest with him; it’s the best way to let him help you. You ask if it’s more acceptable to have childlike longings to be taken care of than to have more adult feelings… well, I’d say it might possibly feel less acceptable to you when you have adult feelings (like you said: you don’t allow it). But it’s not less acceptable to your therapist.
>>>>>>I guess the adult feelings are more confusing because there is this element of pride that comes into play. I felt kind of silly when I first felt these little kid feelings with him so intensely but I can accept the idea of regression and I can even accept that it is useful. But what could possibly be useful about arousal occurring in therapy? I don't have a clue what it means or what I'm supposed to learn from it. I think it is scary to be honest about this because I don't like surprises and I have no idea where these feelings are leading.
<<<<Although I never told my therapist about my feelings for him, I did find it extremely useful to work through those feelings on my own. So although it was extremely painful, I was ultimately glad that I had the feelings and that I had the resources to explore them and figure out what they meant to me. My therapist helped me with them indirectly by helping me learn to think psychologically. But I do feel it would be better to work through them with a therapist (which is why, if I do therapy again, it’ll be long term therapy with plenty of scope for transference).
>>>>>>I know this is really personal, and I completely understand if you decline to answer, but I'd like to know what they meant to you. Because I don't even have "X" to start with. How did you work through these feelings? In the middle of the night I am usually very, very honest with myself. I think I know what I've felt and I can sort of label things but I can't get a handle on why things are changing. And why are they changing into this?! Of all people, you would think I would know better than to offer someone this kind of information about me, to potentially use against me.
<<<<I know it’s a scary place. But I’m certain your therapist will help make it safer.
>>>>He's trying. Today I told him that I really, really wished that we were in the tree-house office. I needed the safety of the smaller space. He said, "ceilings too high here?" which is in reference to my escape mechanism of "sitting" up above us when things get too intense. He never asks me to come down, though he will sometimes ask me if I can come back into the room if I leave completely. Once he asked me if he could come up with me. I've been out the window a lot these days.
Thanks for the long post. I really want to "talk" about this as I struggle to understand it. I hope you don't mind all the questions.
Posted by daisym on June 23, 2005, at 0:05:55
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (maybe triggers?) » Daisym, posted by All Done on June 22, 2005, at 16:41:16
Thank you for sharing so much. I've said it before but parenting is so complicated. My therapist tells me that it is important to let myself acknowledge the love I did get from my dad, especially when I was really young. Girls do need their daddies, but they need their daddies to have strong boundaries, kind of like good therapists!
What strikes me is your wanting to be wanted. I worked hard to be invisible but there is this longing now to be seen -- really seen---and wanted anyway. I think that might be one of the primary reasons therapy is so important to me. I'm letting someone see me, the real me, and so far he hasn't sent me away or asked me to hide anything.
I asked Tamar, but I'll ask you too...how are you able to distinguish your feelings as "purely" sexual and not love? And what did your therapist say when you whined at him about being a cliche?
I bet he said you are uniquely you...and for that I'm grateful.
Posted by daisym on June 23, 2005, at 0:19:33
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (triggery) » daisym, posted by messadivoce on June 22, 2005, at 17:40:59
You make lots of sense!
>>>>Do you think you envy the tenderness he must give to her during intimacy, without wanting the actual sex? I know I envy my T's wife that way. I guess the danger comes when we are willing to have sex to get that intimacy, and when our T's or other men take advantage of that.
<<<<<A while back I had a dream that my therapist was teaching me how to enjoy sex. It was clear that what he was teaching me was how to be close to someone. When we talked about this dream, we agreed that I wanted intimacy and closeness in my life. This was about that time that I started to really acknowledge what was missing from my relationships. I was so busy taking care of everyone else that I never let them care for or see me. I've written about it here. Therapy can make you so lonely because you learn what it feels like to be understood and what it might mean to merge emotionally with someone and not get hurt. I think that is why I say I'm jealous of "them" not "her." It is the relationship I imagine they have that I want in my life, not necessarily him. But, I do have to say we used to have a poster who was married to a therapist and she had plenty of complaints about him. I suspect they might save the bulk of their patience for their clients.
You've hit on my absolute biggest fear. I'm afraid of myself. I wonder, what lengths would I go to to avoid being left? OR to feel special? I wonder over and over again if I think sex can be used as currency in some way. Intellectually I tell myself "no." But my body has betrayed me before, so...so.
Thank you for making me think about this more.
Posted by Tamar on June 23, 2005, at 6:05:10
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (long) » Daisym, posted by daisym on June 22, 2005, at 23:52:12
> <<<<OK, that is a HUGE question for me -- how DO you know whether you've fallen in love or not? I've been "married" to my husband since I was 18. I had one serious boyfriend before that and we went as far as kissing. (poor guy) I had a few other dates, but I drank my way through my senior year of high school so I don't remember much about them. I think the summer between high school and college was the only time I "experimented" sexually, but only when I'd been drinking ALOT. Let's just say that I usually kept all of my clothes on...As far as I can tell, falling in love is about having powerful loving feelings combined with intense sexual attraction. And that’s what erotic transference feels like to me; it’s just the same as falling in love. Maybe it *is* the same. When I fell in love with my husband I knew very little about him; when I got to know him I came to love him in a more realistic way (I mean that I discovered he had faults and I loved him anyway). I think getting to know someone can transform those initial feelings into a more stable, less overwhelming feeling of love as the relationship progresses.
When I was younger I experimented sexually a lot. I didn’t fall in love with all my partners, but I loved most of them as friends. I have fallen in love a few times in my life: with two boyfriends before my husband, and then with my husband.
My therapist was the first person I fell in love with who was off-limits. However, I did fall in love with a man a few years ago, and he loved me too, but we didn’t want to have an affair because we were both married. So we were close friends instead. And although I wanted very much to tear off his clothes I would never have done it in real life because I knew it would lead to feelings of guilt that would have ended the friendship. I think of my feelings for my therapist in a similar way. Perhaps I could have tried to seduce him, but if he’d been willing it would have meant the end of the therapeutic aspect of the relationship, and I didn’t want to compromise the good thing I had for a couple of hours of sex. And of course I knew his boundaries were good and he’d never do it.
> <<<<<The rejection things is a huge part of this. Having these feelings has triggered off the list of the things I don't like about myself physically, stuff I've always hated as well as stuff I thought I'd gotten OK with. In my head, I'm telling myself that part of the reason it isn't OK to have these feelings is that he deserves to have some sweet, beautiful young thing offer herself, that this is ludicrous that I would even think that he would be attracted to me. (Not that I think he is, but when I try to figure out what I want, part of that is him caring about me, more than the client stuff, and I don't think he does/could because I'm not attractive enough. Does that make any sense?) I guess it feels very egotistical and presumptuous.
That makes perfect sense to me. I felt that if my therapist were to get involved with a client, he could do better than me; that I wasn’t attractive enough to be noticed; that he would be repulsed by all my physical flaws. Then I realised that (for me anyway) that feeling of being unattractive is very deep and very old. And it’s not just about sexual desire; I imagine that people might not want to be friends with me because I’m not attractive enough.
The odd thing is that I don’t actually seem to have any difficulty attracting men, despite my obvious defects. I’ve had plenty of partners… Possibly the reason I was such a bike in my youth was a need to have my desirability validated. And of course, it didn’t really work because there was always a part of me that assumed men were intimate with me simply because I was available and not because they were attracted to me…
But the other thing was that I came to understand that my physical appearance wasn’t stopping me from being sexually intimate with my therapist. The thing that was stopping me was the therapeutic boundaries. Strangely enough, that knowledge actually makes me feel better about myself. I am free to imagine that perhaps he would have loved to get it on with me in different circumstances. And maybe there’s more to attraction than a ‘perfect’ body; I think men as well as women are interested in their partner’s character and personality. The same goes for caring in non-sexual ways.
> >>>>>OUCH. I'm sorry things happened this way. I did tell my therapist that I was worried that he would tell me he needed me to see someone else, that he couldn't cope with my feelings. I guess I'm lucky, when I skirt issues, he will help me bring them out. When I skirt questions though, he won't answer unless asked straight out.
There are some therapists who can’t cope with these feelings. However, I really think your therapist can. Not only does he anticipate intense feelings, he also seems to have the perceptiveness and experience to deal with them. It’s great that he helps you bring out issues.
> >>>>>>I'm sure you are probably right about his theoretical orientation. But since you didn't know that at the time, I'm sure it was painful. It must have gotten in the way for a while. I too believe I'm untouchable but it is because I think I'm scary. I guess I think he thinks that if he touches me, I'll REALLY have transference. That story about the woman who was needy about her hugs and her therapist labeled her greedy really sticks with me. I think I'm emotionally taxing enough.
Yeah, that story about the needy woman with the hugs resonated with me too. Have you talked to your therapist about touching? I was very struck by your feeling that his touch could induce transference. I can imagine you might feel very afraid of the intensity of feeling that touch could provoke in you, and very afraid of his possible reaction. I’m not saying I think you should touch him, but I wonder if it could be useful to you to talk about what touching might be like. (I don’t want to scare you… But nevertheless, I think he might have some useful things to say.)
> >>>>>>I want to wail at you, "HOW DO YOU KNOW HE IS NEVER GOING TO BE OVERWHELMED?"...sorry, didn't mean to shout.
Sorry. I will admit immediately that I’m not omniscient! But from everything you’ve posted about him, it seems abundantly clear that he is educated, experienced and professional. It is true that some therapists can feel overwhelmed when dealing with clients whose stories are severely troubling. But from what I’ve read, that usually happens when therapists are not experienced enough to know how to explore their feelings for the client and their countertransference reactions. It sounds as if your therapist knows how to take care of himself (perhaps with supervision or something similar, and perhaps by having the emotional maturity to distinguish between your feelings and his). He seems to tell you that he can hear and accept anything you are able to tell say. It may be difficult to believe him, especially if you feel that your emotions are too challenging for most people, but fortunately he isn’t most people. I guess it’s a matter of continuing to test him whenever you need to.
> >>>>>>I guess the adult feelings are more confusing because there is this element of pride that comes into play. I felt kind of silly when I first felt these little kid feelings with him so intensely but I can accept the idea of regression and I can even accept that it is useful. But what could possibly be useful about arousal occurring in therapy? I don't have a clue what it means or what I'm supposed to learn from it. I think it is scary to be honest about this because I don't like surprises and I have no idea where these feelings are leading.
I don’t like surprises either! And I can understand why you ask what could possibly be useful about arousal in therapy. I think the short answer is that therapy is a safe place to explore what arousal means to you.
> >>>>>>I know this is really personal, and I completely understand if you decline to answer, but I'd like to know what they meant to you. Because I don't even have "X" to start with. How did you work through these feelings? In the middle of the night I am usually very, very honest with myself. I think I know what I've felt and I can sort of label things but I can't get a handle on why things are changing. And why are they changing into this?! Of all people, you would think I would know better than to offer someone this kind of information about me, to potentially use against me.
I don’t mind answering at all. It took a long time to work through the feelings but I think I know now what’s going on. I wrote everything down and tried to explore all the possibilities. It took several months to be thoroughly honest about some of it; I kept touching on it and then backing away. But eventually I think it made some sense.
When I was seeing my therapist I spent a lot of time talking about being raped when I was a teenager. I realised that starting to talk about it had coincided with the beginnings of the erotic transference but I didn’t know what the connection was. Surely if I were going to experience transference connected with the attack it should be negative transference? That would have made sense to me. But there I was, stuck with nasty shameful erotic transference. I came to the conclusion that the most likely connection was about my body’s betrayal in responding to the assault. And I think of it all in a rather counter-intuitive way: the feelings I transferred to my therapist were feelings about what my attackers didn’t do, rather than what they did do. They didn’t give me any real sexual pleasure; they only gave me physiological arousal. They didn’t arouse me in a context of safety and joy; they contextualized my arousal with fear and disgust and shame. They didn’t see me as a real person; they objectified me. They weren’t interested my potential as a lover and they didn’t want me to give them real sexual pleasure; they wanted to get off on their power over me.
So I think I wanted to retell the story with my therapist and rewrite it. I wanted him to take their place and change the story; I wanted him not just to arouse me but to give me pleasure, and I wanted him to enjoy the pleasure I could give him. I felt the safety of the therapeutic frame and I wanted to experience sexual intimacy in that safe space. I wanted him to want *me*. I wanted to feel like a woman with a man.
I think I started to realize what was going on when a fantasy popped into my head one day when I was driving home from work. It was a fantasy of sex with my therapist and another man I knew. Until that moment I couldn’t possibly have imagined any fantasy of a threeway with two men; it was just too triggering. But instead of putting it out of my mind I gave it some space and surprisingly enough it did go some way towards rewriting the story. In fact it was probably more effective at rewriting the story than real sex with my real therapist could ever be.
There was some other stuff as well… (This is embarrassing… much blushing…) One thing in particular was that I developed a very phallic conception of therapeutic safety. I had a kind of fantasy that my therapist had a safe penis. Thinking about it had a kind of calming influence on me. I know, I’m really nuts! But even that was useful to think about, because I came to realize that I’m a bit frightened of male genitalia. And whenever I think of a penis I imagine it ready for action, whereas in reality most of them spend most of their time asleep.
Realizing all those things helped some, and also led me to begin to acknowledge some earlier abuse in my childhood, which I’m currently keeping in a small box on a high shelf. I’ll get to it some day if I ever get around to doing long term therapy. Until then, I can contain it without it hurting too much.
I still have a strong sexual attraction for my therapist, which isn’t too surprising because the man is HOT! And I still experience some of the erotic transference. These things seem to continue after termination, at least for me. But I don’t find any of it overwhelming or shameful any more.
I don’t know if that’s any help with your situation. I know it’s quite different. But the question of why your feelings are changing in this way is clearly an important one. My impression is that for people with a history of sexual assault or abuse it’s extremely common to experience some degree of erotic transference. Or at least, it can be helpful to experience these feelings. I think it happens because there’s such a huge emotional conflict between how things were and how things could have been different, if that makes sense. I thought about how a counter-intuitive approach to csa might look, but I’m uneasy about posting it because it might be too triggering. If you want me to, though, I’ll post it.
> Thanks for the long post. I really want to "talk" about this as I struggle to understand it. I hope you don't mind all the questions.
I don’t mind at all. Talking helps me too!
Posted by messadivoce on June 23, 2005, at 11:23:20
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (triggery) » messadivoce, posted by daisym on June 23, 2005, at 0:19:33
<<<You've hit on my absolute biggest fear. I'm afraid of myself. I wonder, what lengths would I go to to avoid being left? OR to feel special? I wonder over and over again if I think sex can be used as currency in some way. Intellectually I tell myself "no." But my body has betrayed me before, so...so.>>>
This reminds me of a paragraph of "In Session." Something about how being in therapy makes our desires run smack up against the built-in boundaries of the therapeutic relationship.
I think your T has proven that he will not allow your desires to overrun your relationship with him, nor will you be forced to "pay" for what you are getting from him with your body. This is his job, after all. Amazing how simple his job really is, but also amazing how many T's can't walk the fine line of working with desires, but not gratifying them, or otherwise allowing them to sabatoge the therapy.
But I hope you agree that yours has handled this very skillfully. By this I mean that you have to TALK about what is behind your desires, not act on them. Does talking about your fears take away their power?
Posted by pinkeye on June 23, 2005, at 13:05:28
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (long) ***TRIGGERS*** » daisym, posted by Tamar on June 23, 2005, at 6:05:10
Tamar
Your post and insight was awesome. Plus I think you should also read the book Courage to Heal. I was really impressed with it as well.Also I would like to listen more to what you have to say which you didn't - about the counter intuitive approach.. You can maybe put *********BIG TRIGGER *********** in the subject and post ??
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