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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by alexandra_k on May 31, 2005, at 3:46:37
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships » alexandra_k, posted by gardenergirl on May 31, 2005, at 3:21:38
> Well, yes my T focuses soley on my issues in sessions. But he does not fulfill all my needs.
Hmm...
I didn't mean *all*..>In fact, as time has gone on, he leaves me hanging more and more. I hate that! But I see why he does. I'm starting to answer my own questions, and I'm learning not to count on him to rescue me when I get stuck. So this feels more realistic than the golden fantasy.
Ah. Yes, that makes sense :-)
Thanks.
Posted by pegasus on May 31, 2005, at 9:17:55
In reply to Re: The Introduction (In Session) » daisym, posted by littleone on May 30, 2005, at 22:04:48
> I had been seeing my previous T for a while and he was very consistent with me. Then he asked me to bring my husband along to a session. My husband and I are very different people and when my T started interacting with us both, he was a completely different person. I can understand that it was because he probably had to be more careful when dealing with me, or more aware of everything he said/conveyed, or maybe he was trying for the old blank slate with me. But either way, I was very very hurt at the change in him and in the fact that he wasn't authentic with me.
>Now, this is really interesting to me, because I had an almost opposite experience. I had been seeing my T for maybe 6 months when my husband came with me to a session. *I* was upset because my T talked to my DH exactly the same way he talked to me. I think it was upsetting because I felt like his interactions with me alone had something to do with us having developed a unique relationship. And then when he acted so much the same with my husband, I felt like that was just the way he talked to everyone. And so what I thought was special was just nothing to him. I guess there's no way to satisfy all of the clients all of the time!
pegasus
Posted by pegasus on May 31, 2005, at 9:19:45
In reply to Re: The Introduction (In Session), posted by littleone on May 30, 2005, at 22:18:36
I almost didn't answer this post, because I can't figure out what the answer is. But then I figured that maybe you'd want to know that. I think I ruminate over all four of those things a lot. Maybe different ones dominate at different times, but I really can't pull out one as being much more frequent than the others.
pegasus
Posted by Daisym on May 31, 2005, at 12:59:53
In reply to Re: The Introduction (In Session) » littleone, posted by pegasus on May 31, 2005, at 9:17:55
I kind of smiled when I read your post about therapists not being able to satisfy all clients, etc.
In a discussion a few months ago about perceived power, I said I was a little afraid that my absolute terror of abandonment makes me vulnerable to inappropriate requests. I said I wasn't sure I could say "no" if it meant losing my therapist. (This was all hypothetical, of course.) He jumped in and said, "never going to happen. You are perfectly safe with me."
I told him that I knew that and it was reassuring to hear it but still...my ego hurt a little from how quickly he said, "never gonna happen." I mean I'm not COMPLETELY unattractive. He replied that this was one of those no win conversations so he would just shut up now. He looked so distressed I just had to smile.
Posted by Tamar on May 31, 2005, at 16:08:31
In reply to Therapists can't win » pegasus, posted by Daisym on May 31, 2005, at 12:59:53
> I told him that I knew that and it was reassuring to hear it but still...my ego hurt a little from how quickly he said, "never gonna happen." I mean I'm not COMPLETELY unattractive. He replied that this was one of those no win conversations so he would just shut up now. He looked so distressed I just had to smile.I love your therapist. Sigh.
(Could it be transference?)
Posted by 10derHeart on May 31, 2005, at 18:09:48
In reply to Re: Therapists can't win » Daisym, posted by Tamar on May 31, 2005, at 16:08:31
> I love your therapist. Sigh.
> (Could it be transference?)
1. Don't we all?!
2. Probably is transference...but who cares....feels like real love....Daisy's T. is the one reason I could imagine changing my moral stance against cloning.... :-)
Posted by cricket on June 1, 2005, at 11:49:45
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships » alexandra_k, posted by gardenergirl on May 31, 2005, at 3:21:38
In my session yesterday, my T was trying to explain the therapy relationship to me. I think what he said differed greatly from Lott's idea. I will try to paraphrase as best I can since I don't remember his exact words.
He said:
In real life, relationships are usually reponsible for producing something or at least doing something - certainly work relationships, but also family relationships and even friendships. In therapy, one of the rules is that we do nothing so it winds up being solely about the relationship. We have no other purpose than to be as honest with each other as possible and to understand each other as much as human beings can and no matter what happens, whatever feelings come up, no matter how destructive, we never stop talking or close down lines of communication. It is like nothing else in the world and nowhere else in the world can two human beings try to understand each other like in long-term open-ended therapy.
So I guess my therapist would say that all other relationships try to approximate the therapy one rather than the other way around.
I'd be interested in what you all think.
Posted by messadivoce on June 1, 2005, at 14:06:14
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships, posted by cricket on June 1, 2005, at 11:49:45
That is so amazing. Wow. Really makes me appreciate my T, because I think at times we reached that kind of connection. He did know what he was doing, after all.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 2, 2005, at 3:35:28
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships, posted by cricket on June 1, 2005, at 11:49:45
> We have no other purpose than to be as honest with each other as possible and to understand each other as much as human beings can and no matter what happens, whatever feelings come up, no matter how destructive, we never stop talking or close down lines of communication. It is like nothing else in the world and nowhere else in the world can two human beings try to understand each other like in long-term open-ended therapy.
Except that it isn't about understanding 'each other' its about understanding the client...
> So I guess my therapist would say that all other relationships try to approximate the therapy one rather than the other way around.I guess....
I'd say that RL relationships came first. Long before there was therapy people had relationships with one another...And some people found that they had problems in their relationships...
And so then the therapy relationship was invented.
I don't know...
I'm starting to think...
Not having a therapist is a double edged sword as well...
I'd been thinking of the cons
But I think there are a fair few pros tooBut then thats probably because I only got 8 months of proper therapy with someone who didn't just judge me or insist on trying to change me all the time.
I'm sorry
I'm in a horrible mood
Posted by Susan47 on June 2, 2005, at 8:58:21
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships, posted by alexandra_k on June 2, 2005, at 3:35:28
You're definitely allowed to be in a horrible mood. You've earned it.
Damn my ex-t. Damn him for leaving me holding a bag of sh*t.
Posted by cricket on June 2, 2005, at 9:29:33
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships, posted by alexandra_k on June 2, 2005, at 3:35:28
Alexandra,
You're right, it is supposed to be about 'understanding the client' and I'm sure that my therapist would agree and operates that way with most of his clients.
However, I think that there are cases, (probably those coming from situations of extreme abuse and neglect) where the client's main issue is allowing another human being to get anywhere close to them. The issue becomes not so much 'understanding the client' as giving the client the ability to relate to the therapist as another human being. That's where the damage is, that's where the healing lies.
Yes, real relationships are probably better except in my case I am just too damaged to have one of those and if I allow myself (and right now that's a big if) to get close to my therapist it will be a major life accomplishment.
And please don't be sorry. I like when people respond back with differing view points it helps me think things through.
Posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 20:44:51
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships, posted by cricket on June 1, 2005, at 11:49:45
I think what he says is true for people like me, at least. Having a relationship is a stretch for me, and my usual reaction to difficulty in a relationship is to emotionally withdraw and eventually, if it continues, to emotionally divorce and keep a superficial and cordial relationship with none of what I want in it.
For my therapist, the challenge has been to teach me that I can stay connected and work through problems and reach new levels of intimacy. So the therapeutic relationship has been the teaching vehicle for that.
Unfortunately, the other people in my life (my family) don't work with me like he does, and I still choose to emotionally withdraw and divorce. I have a lot of cordial relationships. :(
He hurt me to my core today though. Or he should have, if I had been feeling close to him. He was talking about how the therapeutic relationship was a real one. But in doing so he pointed out that it was also clearly unreal.
Ouch.
I really ought to be hurt and angry.
Posted by littleone on June 6, 2005, at 21:41:38
In reply to Re: Other aspects of Chapter 2, posted by daisym on May 27, 2005, at 1:32:58
> And I consider time slots "mine" so I don't want them given away if I can't make it, or if I change. Not rational, not rational at all.
Oh, me too. I book my times a couple of months in advance, but only remember to book the next lot when I only have 1 or 2 appointments to go. Then I can't get *MY* times.
And I always feel so hurt. They *know* I always take the same times and it is very rare indeed for me to miss a session. I don't understand why they don't just block them all out for me. I mean, it's not like I'm gonna graduate from therapy any time soon. It just hurts.
> Therapist's Presence Brings Comfort -
>
> Usually. Not always. Sometimes it brings on anxiety.Oh, I'm so glad you raised this. I yearn for my T between sessions and usually find comfort in the waiting room. But as soon as my T steps out to get me my anxiety goes through the roof and stays that way for the whole time I'm with him.
It always bamboozles me why I'm so keen to see my T when it brings on so much anxiety. And I think how it's because he's so nice to me. But if he's so nice, why do I have the high anxiety? He thinks that's because of the content of our discussions. But I don't know. Like I said, the anxiety skyrockets just by seeing him walk out of his office to get coffee or whatever.
Posted by daisym on June 6, 2005, at 22:55:52
In reply to Re: Other aspects of Chapter 2 » daisym, posted by littleone on June 6, 2005, at 21:41:38
I think for me that the anxiety is linked to both the session content (opening those dark places is painful) and about my abandonment fears.
I think, "Is he different? Has he changed his mind about working with me? What kind of mood will he be in?" And on and on...
I think this is really old, having to assess someone's mood over and over again. And the more attached I am to him, the more power he has over me. The more aware I am about my feelings and my needs, the more scared I get.
Sometimes think I'd be best served never actually having my sessions, but instead knowing that they are scheduled.
Which reminds me, I'd ask that they simply reserve your spot "forever". I'm sure the receptionist can do that. There is no way I'd move around every few months. I'd forget, but then again, I'm old...
Posted by cricket on June 7, 2005, at 10:08:10
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships » cricket, posted by Dinah on June 6, 2005, at 20:44:51
Hi Dinah,
Glad to have you back.
I too have a lot of cordial relationships, for the exact same reason you mention - my own emotional withdrawal. For now, it's what helps me function in the world. I do wonder if one day I will ever be able to have anything else.
I am so sorry to hear that wasn't a great session. When do you see him next? I guess one of the advantages of going more than once a week is that it feels like there is less riding on every session.
It is interesting that you said you didn't feel close. Was that before his "relationship unreal" comment? I am wondering if he was somehow reacting to your own shut down. Sometimes I feel like my therapist does that. I go in feeling like I don't want to talk to him, refusing to reveal any of myself, but another part of me is desperately looking for closeness. My therapist distances himself I think he would say out of respect for the part of me that wants to withdraw, but it winds up feeling punitive to the part that is desperate to be close. Is it anything like that?
If you have a chance, Jazzed posted an article in a thread for Pinkeye - towards the bottom of the list. It's about PTSD, but it has a couple of interesting charts on attachment styles of both clients and therapists. I would love to get your thoughts on it, because it seems we both struggle with the same attachment issues, even if they manifest themselves in different ways.
Posted by cricket on June 7, 2005, at 10:36:38
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships, posted by cricket on June 7, 2005, at 10:08:10
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 19:47:19
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships, posted by cricket on June 7, 2005, at 10:08:10
I read that article a while ago, and found it very helpful in sorting things out. It's on my bookmarks list.
It may have been his comment that exacerbated the situation. I was already feeling unconnected, but the comment might have made me angry on top of it.
I think I'm just not myself the last day or two. But it will pass. It always does.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 19:50:10
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships, posted by cricket on June 7, 2005, at 10:08:10
Ooops. Like I said, my attention span is nil right now.
I meant to say that emotional withdrawal and cordial relationships are frequently the best sort, depending on the person you're with. I want to have deeper relationships with people, but only ones I can trust to be intimate with. So I guess I just need to find more people I trust.
I rather suspect I get that need met here, though.
Posted by partlycloudy on June 7, 2005, at 20:26:06
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships » cricket, posted by Dinah on June 7, 2005, at 19:50:10
How did it feel to meet the Babblers in person - was it comfortable for you?
pc
Posted by pegasus on June 8, 2005, at 8:46:17
In reply to Chapter 3.The Therapist's Power, posted by Dinah on May 29, 2005, at 9:48:25
Is anyone ready to talk about chapter 4 yet? Sorry if I'm rushing you.
This chapter is probably the reason that I originally bought the book. Boundaries are so confusing when you first get into therapy. No one explains them completely ahead of time. And if they do discuss them, it's so confusing to understand the reasons behind them. This is where I had the most trouble with my ex-T, and where this book helped me the most.
And then there's the titillation factor with this chapter. Freud took clients on vacation with him? Ferenczi let clients sit on his lap and kiss him? Lazarus invites them to play tennis with him and his wife? Hoo ha! It's appalling, and appealing all at the same time. I think, "If only!" and then, "Thank god I didn't get caught up in that mess!"
Beyond that, though, I loved the section on Basic Rules. Finally, someone lays it all out. And, then right away I notice that my ex-T violated some of these. Rule: Should not self disclose particularly intimate material. He told me when he got a vasectomy, for heavens sake! But he was making a point (no, not that one) that was relevant to my therapy, so it was ok.
But the really great part of this chapter is the section on Thinking about Boundaries and the Symbolic Meaning of Boundaries. Once I read this, I could really make sense of the confusing therapy relationship a lot better. I finally was able to see the boundaries as protecting me, and as facilitating my therapy. I think the key is in asking myself, why would I want these boundaries to shift? What do these boundaries represent to me? And then I start to see them as valuable to *me* and not just protecting my T.
It makes me think of the time I asked my T if I could hug him, fully expecting that he'd say yes. It just seemed natural within the moment. But instead, he said that although he had the same impulse, he wanted to talk about it first, because we'd never touched each other in any way, and adding in a physical dimension was a big deal. At the time I felt misunderstood, and incorrectly suspected of bad motives. But after reading this chapter, I could see that he was respecting the potential symbolism behind the hug, and the power that it could have for me. Basically, he was being a good therapist.
Oh, but too bad I couldn't appreciate that at the time!
I'll be interested to see what comes up for the rest of you around boundaries.
pegasus
Posted by Jazzed on June 8, 2005, at 11:10:38
In reply to Chapter 4, posted by pegasus on June 8, 2005, at 8:46:17
In thinking about boundary violations, my first shrink was SO bad that he told me how much he hated my father and wished he could be my father, talked about other patients to me - under the guise of it being in my best interest, talked to me about his wife and her problems, and finally told me that if I moved away from home, he'd help me find an apartment and he'd take care of me! That put such an intense fear in me, and of course I didn't do it, but I wonder what would've happened to me if I had! About a year after I'd left therapy with him, he married a patient. I do think he loved me in a paternal sense, and really did want to take care of me, but good golly! BTW, He never made any sexual overatures toward me, thank goodness. I sure wish I had known then what I now know about therapy, and I'm sure things would have gone much differently, but I was a teen when I started with him.Jazzy
Posted by messadivoce on June 8, 2005, at 21:05:07
In reply to Re: Chapter 4 Extreme boundary violations, posted by Jazzed on June 8, 2005, at 11:10:38
I have to admit that this is the second chapter in the book that I skipped to, after the chapter on "I'm in love with my Therapist." I was kind of disappointed in how general the "rules" were, in a way. And it makes me paranoid about my relationship with my former T. He was very professional all of the time, it's true. But there were moments, here and there, where the professional context of the relationship was forgotten by both of us, and we were just two people in the room.
These moments are hard to explain. But even though I know pretty much no hard facts about his life, I did get glimpses into how he felt about me. He liked me, I know that. He got swept up into the high emotionalism of the termination. He let me write him after termination and he wrote back. He responded in a therapeutic capacity, as far as the context of his replies.
It was three weeks after my termination that I stopped by to say hi. That was when he told me that he could no longer write me, that it was a boundary violation, and that he was not doing me any favors by staying in constant contact with me. It was the closest he every came to admitting a mistake. Of course, I was crushed. I felt like it was all my fault, that somehow I should have known not to write to him and be happy with his responses.
That was his biggest flaw, I think. Not being able to admit his mistakes. In the end, that hurt me more than the boundaries themselves. I can relate to the "good cop bad cop" thing too. Even though my head knows that he cut off communication to protect me, my heart has been screaming that he did it to protect *himself* from how much I needed him; so that he could go on his merry way with his postdoctoral fellowship and license and family and leave me with...
He left me with a lot. Good things and bad.
Today all day I felt as though something was not right. I kept thinking about him, more than usual, and wondering if it had been a full year since that last time I saw him. I came home and checked through my old e-mail messages. Sure enough. It will be one year ago tomorrow.
Posted by Jazzed on June 8, 2005, at 22:08:21
In reply to Re: Chapter 4, posted by messadivoce on June 8, 2005, at 21:05:07
Posted by Tamar on June 9, 2005, at 17:40:39
In reply to Re: Chapter 4, posted by messadivoce on June 8, 2005, at 21:05:07
> Today all day I felt as though something was not right. I kept thinking about him, more than usual, and wondering if it had been a full year since that last time I saw him. I came home and checked through my old e-mail messages. Sure enough. It will be one year ago tomorrow.Awww... that's tough. I'm thinking of you. I hope your memories are very sweet and not too bitter.
Big hugs,
Tamar
Posted by annierose on June 10, 2005, at 21:28:17
In reply to Re: Chapter 4 » messadivoce, posted by Tamar on June 9, 2005, at 17:40:39
Having just finshed this chapter, I just wanted to quickly comment, that she uses the expression "approximate relationship" frequently throughout this chapter. One that I could easily find was near the end:
"Boundaries remind client and therapist that their relationship is approximate, that in its therapeutic capacity there are things that it can never be, but that what it is can be relied upon."
Regarding this chapter, I feel my T has solid boundaries. I know very little about her. She has rarely shared any personal stories and never speaks of other clients (even in a general sense). But I feel I know her. I don't know her in a specific sense of what is her favorite color, what music she listens to, what books she reads ... I know her heart. I'm comfortable within the boundaries. I rarely will ask a personal question (I can think of only one question I asked, how many children she had & their sexes, and she did answer).
Yes, part of me would like to know more. But another part asks "why?". I don't push the boundaries. I accept them as part of the process.
I saw another T quite briefly, maybe 2 or 3 sessions, decades ago, and she had NO boundaries. It actually drove me nuts. My 45 minute session, lasted 2 hours. I needed to go back to work and I didn't know how to say "time's up". And she talked on and on about herself and other clients. I remember thinking, I think I prefer a blank slate to this mumble jumble.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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