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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 23 to 47 of 47. Go back in thread:
Posted by sleepygirl on June 2, 2005, at 19:55:46
In reply to Re: Jung and fairy tales...interesting exercise, posted by Emily Elizabeth on June 2, 2005, at 14:50:51
No, I don't think I can remember a totally happy one fairy tale. I'll try to find one.
Posted by daisym on June 2, 2005, at 21:02:35
In reply to Re: Jung and fairy tales...interesting exercise, posted by Emily Elizabeth on June 2, 2005, at 14:50:51
Fairy tales aren't supposed to be happy. They were a way that parents and clans communicated warnings and social rules to children. They were supposed to clearly show good and evil.
The problem now a days is that we read confusing stories to little kids. That is what I meant by Peter Rabbit got ruined for me. In the story, PETER breaks into Mr. McGregor's garden and STEALS food. But we are led to feel sorry for Peter and hate Mr. McGregor. So the message is confusing.
On the bright side, most Fairy Tales have a good ending.
Posted by daisym on June 2, 2005, at 21:04:02
In reply to Re: Jung and fairy tales...interesting exercise » gardenergirl, posted by rainbowbrite on June 2, 2005, at 15:58:42
It strikes me that these are all rescue tales. Were you always wishing someone would come and save you, transform you into a princess?
Posted by rainbowbrite on June 2, 2005, at 22:53:47
In reply to Re: Jung and fairy tales...interesting exercise » rainbowbrite, posted by daisym on June 2, 2005, at 21:04:02
I did actually always wish to be rescued or taken away as a kid.
And I just always always loved to dress up like a princess. But I hadnt thought about the rescue theme...hmm I dont like that. Oh well, I rescued myself anyway so Im not waiting for anyone now....ok ok yes I am Im waiting for prince charming! I really am. And then that would be a very happy ending to my fairytale ;-)
Posted by gardenergirl on June 3, 2005, at 0:02:52
In reply to Re: Jung and fairy tales...interesting exercise » daisym, posted by rainbowbrite on June 2, 2005, at 22:53:47
I think that rescue is part of it. What I think resonates with me in Cinderella is the concept of real self versus an ideal self. The prince falls in love with the ideal self, or Cinderella in all her magical finery, but loses this fantasy woman. When he feels this loss, he goes in search of it, and finds Cinderella as her true self. And he loves her anyway.
Jung believed that all aspects of the fairy tale (or of dreams for that matter) represent parts of our psyche.
I was thinking about this and Cinderella, and I think you could look at the step mother and the fairy god mother as opposing mother archetypes. Neither is very satisfying, because the step mother is evil and abuses Cinderella, and the fairy god mother transforms her into this fantasy woman, but it doesn't last. I think that idea resonates with me as well, because I often feel like people are going to find out I'm really just a pumpkin.
You know, when I got married, I didn't realize it at the time, but my dress had elements in it that looked like Cinderella's dress. And I had my hair in a similar style, AND my veil was attached to a headband. When I took the veil off and just wore the headband, it was a bit startling to me how much I seemed to be trying to look like a princess.
And of course my father always called me "princess" when I was a girl. Funny, it stopped when I hit puberty. Guess that was the midnight bell for me as far as he was concerned.
I think I will bring this up tomorrow in my session.
Thanks everyone for all your posts. I can't respond much now, as I have to get a good night's sleep before I hit the road tomorrow. But more later.
gg
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 3, 2005, at 0:44:09
In reply to Re: Jung and fairy tales...interesting exercise » Gabbi-x-2, posted by sleepygirl on June 2, 2005, at 19:53:41
Sure! It was, I think by Hans Christian Anderson
And it was about a very poor girl who was sent out into the cold to sell matches. No one would by them, and as she began to freeze she decided to light them to keep warm. With each one she lit she had a beautiful vision, and she would try so hard to keep it, but then the match would burn out. With the very last match, she saw her dead grandmother, who she loved very much, her grandmother took her into her arms, and this time the match didn't go out, because the little girl had died.
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 3, 2005, at 2:24:57
In reply to Re: Jung and fairy tales...interesting exercise » sleepygirl, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 3, 2005, at 0:44:09
Though I guess that's not really a fairy tale, it's too modern I think, it's a children's story. I didn't like any others. I just liked Russian Wonder Tales, with the Baba Yaga.. and all the boys had the same name. Ivan. Those were great examples of the universal archetypes though.
Posted by Tamar on June 3, 2005, at 3:56:18
In reply to Re: Jung and fairy tales...interesting exercise, posted by daisym on June 2, 2005, at 21:02:35
> Fairy tales aren't supposed to be happy. They were a way that parents and clans communicated warnings and social rules to children. They were supposed to clearly show good and evil.
I think you’re right, and I think they were probably intended for adults too. I suppose urban legends probably fulfil a similar function today.
> The problem now a days is that we read confusing stories to little kids. That is what I meant by Peter Rabbit got ruined for me. In the story, PETER breaks into Mr. McGregor's garden and STEALS food. But we are led to feel sorry for Peter and hate Mr. McGregor. So the message is confusing.
Or possibly the message is that there are lots of grey areas? That good and evil are contingent? For example, Peter is a RABBIT. Can't we feel some compassion for a rabbit who takes a carrot? (I can't quite remember - is it a carrot?) Can Mr McGregor really claim to own the carrots? Is it OK for humans to work ecosystems to their own advantage (e.g. by farming vegetables) if it disrupts the local food chain (e.g. by denying young rabbits a source of sustenance)?
Of course these questions are a little bit silly, but on the other hand, I think there's plenty of precedent. Most story traditions have trickster characters, and their activities are presented in such a way that the audience delights in their naughtiness at the expense of the great and the good.
> On the bright side, most Fairy Tales have a good ending.
Yes! Whatever happens, things usually turn out OK in the end (at least, for the good guys who haven’t compromised their integrity too much). I think it’s supposed to reassure us that there’s a natural justice in the world.
I wonder what it means if my favourite story is about one of these tricksters...?
Posted by alexandra_k on June 3, 2005, at 5:17:51
In reply to Re: Jung and fairy tales...interesting exercise » alexandra_k, posted by Shortelise on June 2, 2005, at 12:26:52
> Sorry Alexandra. That was abrupt of me. Glad you could take it. :-)
Thats ok. Don't worry - I meant it in a jokey way, I didn't feel upset or indignant at all.
> I've read several people here feeling horrible about this.Yeah.
I know that some theorists talk about 'universal themes'. I guess they would apply in a culture where something is culturally accepted as a symbol for something else. Maybe there are universals... But maybe you have to study classics or something to learn about such stuff. The average person doesn't know what is supposed to symbolise what...I think it is more important to ask what something means for the person in particular.
Whether you are analysing the significance of dreams or the significance of fairy tales.
'What does it mean to you' is more appropriate than 'what does it universally mean'.I think ... even Freud recognised this. Dream analysis wasn't supposed to be done outside the context of the particular person. What he already knew about the person and such was supposed to come into play...
> I always value what you write here.And I value you too :-)
>
> ShortE who has a migraine
I hope you feel better soon.
I have never had a migraine, but I've heard that they are horrible indeed.
:-(
Posted by Shortelise on June 3, 2005, at 12:13:42
In reply to Jung and fairy tales...interesting exercise, posted by gardenergirl on June 1, 2005, at 22:38:25
Yes! I loved that when I was little. I loved all the stories about tiny people who made their tiny ways and did their tiny things, all in a world almost unknown to the big people.
I used to make a tiny land around the roots of a tree. There were mossy terraces, ledges for houses, how I loved that small world.
ShortE
Posted by B2chica on June 3, 2005, at 12:16:58
In reply to Jung and fairy tales...interesting exercise, posted by gardenergirl on June 1, 2005, at 22:38:25
Posted by Shortelise on June 3, 2005, at 12:33:17
In reply to Re: Jung and fairy tales...interesting exercise » Shortelise, posted by alexandra_k on June 3, 2005, at 5:17:51
I found what you wrote so interesting that I started another thread "dream symbols".
ShortE
Posted by TamaraJ on June 3, 2005, at 15:27:44
In reply to Thumbelina!, posted by Shortelise on June 3, 2005, at 12:13:42
I, too, loved Thumbelina as a child. I think there was a song about Thumbelina that I used to sing over and over. And, the Little Match Girl was another favorite, although it was very sad. Wasn't there another story about red shoes or red slippers that was sad? Maybe I am thinking of something else.
Tamara
> Yes! I loved that when I was little. I loved all the stories about tiny people who made their tiny ways and did their tiny things, all in a world almost unknown to the big people.
>
> I used to make a tiny land around the roots of a tree. There were mossy terraces, ledges for houses, how I loved that small world.
>
> ShortE
Posted by TamaraJ on June 3, 2005, at 15:44:36
In reply to Re: Thumbelina! » Shortelise, posted by TamaraJ on June 3, 2005, at 15:27:44
Or at least I think I do. Maybe someone else remembers more of it.
"Thumbelina, Thumbelina, tiny little thing. Thumbelina dance, Thumbelina, sing. . .
There is something in the song, I am sure, about being 10 feet tall.
Yes, I loved that story!
Posted by 10derHeart on June 3, 2005, at 17:10:00
In reply to Re: Thumbelina! I remember part of the song, posted by TamaraJ on June 3, 2005, at 15:44:36
Here are the words...
I love it, too.
Couldn't remember any more that you.
Thanks goodness for search engines....;-)
---------------------------------------
Thumbalina, Thumbalina tiny little thing
Thumbalina dance, Thumbalina sing
Thumbalina what’s the difference if you’re very small?
When your heart is full of love you’re nine feet tallThough you’re no bigger than my thumb
Than my thumb, than my thumb
Sweet Thumbalina don’t be glum
Now now now, ah ah ah, come come comeThumbalina, Thumbalina tiny little thing
Thumbalina dance, Thumbalina sing
Thumbalina what’s the difference if you’re very small?
When your heart is full of love you’re nine feet tallThough you’re no bigger than my toe
Than my toe, than my toe
Sweet Thumbalina keep that glow
And you’ll grow and you’ll grow and you’ll growThumbalina, Thumbalina tiny little thing
Thumbalina dance, Thumbalina sing
Thumbalina what’s the difference if you’re very small?
When your heart is full of love you’re nine feet tallIt came from:
http://www.whirligig-tv.co.uk/radio/lyrics1.htmThese are bringing back pretty nice memories....
Posted by TamaraJ on June 3, 2005, at 17:22:33
In reply to Re: Thumbelina! I remember part of the song » TamaraJ, posted by 10derHeart on June 3, 2005, at 17:10:00
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! I used to sing that song all the time when I was a little kid. It does bring back memories for sure. My mom told me some time ago that when I was little, I used to get up really early in the morning and would sit in the living room singing all my little songs to amuse myself until others got up. My mom was not, and still is not, a morning person. She told me she felt so bad because she would come down stairs all grumpy and tell me to PLEASE STOP SINGING!!! LOL, I was a pain I guess :-)
Posted by happyflower on June 4, 2005, at 9:49:58
In reply to Thumbelina!, posted by Shortelise on June 3, 2005, at 12:13:42
Posted by happyflower on June 4, 2005, at 9:53:35
In reply to Re: Thumbelina! I remember part of the song » 10derHeart, posted by TamaraJ on June 3, 2005, at 17:22:33
Yes, I am a stepmom, but I am not wicked! lol I told my T that "not all stepmothers are evil" because I was the only one who remembered my stepdaughters first wedding anniversary and sent her a card. Well my T said normally it isn't the stepmom that do the abuse, it is the stepfathers. He also told me back in those days when there was a divorce kids went to live with the fathers since they were the bread winners. So that why you see so much stepmother stories.
Posted by happyflower on June 4, 2005, at 9:59:24
In reply to Re: Thumbelina! (nm), posted by happyflower on June 4, 2005, at 9:49:58
I also had miniture worlds around the roots of trees when I was a child. Even now, as an adult, I want to make a miniture fairy garden! I guess I will never grow up! lol
Posted by Racer on June 4, 2005, at 15:01:19
In reply to Jung and fairy tales...interesting exercise, posted by gardenergirl on June 1, 2005, at 22:38:25
It's hard because I grew up on fairy tales! Two do stick out, though:
The first was the one about a girl who has to climb a mountain of ice crystal to reach her friend who was kidnapped by a sort of Ice Witch. There's a shard of ice embedded in his heart, and that must be destroyed in order to rescue him. I don't know why that one always resonated so much with me, but it did. I was always kinda torn, because a part of me thought that he was better off as he was. Maybe I should go find that one and read it again. See if it still touches me the same way.
The other, though, was about a young person -- can't even remember now whether it's a girl or a boy -- whose mother dies. Father remarries -- of course; wicked stepmother -- of course. The real mother, though, is brought back as a cow with one horn. The child is fed by a magical feast that is hidden in that one horn, and the cow saves the child from the wicked stepmother -- until the WS has the cow killed. At that point, the cow has already told the child to bury her heart under a certain bush, and so on. I think it must have been a boy, because I seem to remember there's a magical sword that protects him in a war. That's another I guess I should read again. See if I get any new insights...
Then there are the fairy-tale-like poems, like Heine's Grenadiers. They lay down after the battle, to wait for the next time the Kaiser needs them...
Years back, a buddy of mine had to write about folk tales for a class -- can't remember what the class was, just that they read "Morphology of the Folk Tale" -- and his final paper showed that The Texas Chainsaw Massacre had all the elements of a folk tale. Always remembered that, for some reason...
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 5, 2005, at 0:12:42
In reply to wicked stepmothers!, posted by happyflower on June 4, 2005, at 9:53:35
>
Well my T said normally it isn't the stepmom that do the abuse, it is the stepfathers. He also told me back in those days when there was a divorce kids went to live with the fathers since they were the bread winners. So that why you see so much stepmother stories.Well that's partly true. I suppose in the context of the times, that's the way *evil* was portrayed in the stories, Often it was a witch as well. Generally in fairy tales, (the ones that have been around seemingly forever) and even in many spiritual parables, the theme is goodover coming evil and the travails of the the Hero or heroine who is challenged by the evil. Often they are sent into into a *hell* or, in Sleeping beautie's case a deep sleep, in Ulysses case the seven hells, Jonah from the bible entered the belly of the whale. Little red riding hood entered forest, and then the wolf's belly..
The descent obviously takes on various forms. But the hero/heroine are resurrected after which they have achieved an enlightenment or happiness that would not have happened had they not undertaken the arduous task.
Both the story of Jesus and the Buddha follow this pattern as well, as many modern movies like Starwars.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 6, 2005, at 6:16:47
In reply to Re: wicked stepmothers!, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on June 5, 2005, at 0:12:42
I remember reading something about them a fair while back now...
About the messages in their fairy tales...
Not so nice.
Not sure whether it was a 'conspiracy theory' type analysis or what...
Posted by happyflower on June 10, 2005, at 11:37:55
In reply to Jung and fairy tales...interesting exercise, posted by gardenergirl on June 1, 2005, at 22:38:25
I just listened to this yesterday and it was so inspirational. I am a non mothered child and so much of what she said reflects my life. I was in tears. I wish she had more on the subject. She so gets it. My T says alot of the same things about characterists of abused child as an adult. He is mostly a cognative therapist, I would like to bring this up with him. But what do his type of therapists think of Jungian therapists?
I have also started to read a book by the same psychologist, Women Who Run With the Wolves. So far, it is very good.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 10, 2005, at 17:39:22
In reply to Warming the Stone Child!!!!!!!!!, posted by happyflower on June 10, 2005, at 11:37:55
Cool, glad you liked it. I found a lot within that moved me, too.
I don't know what your T will say. All T's know something about Jung. It's Psyc. 101 stuff. He may poo poo it, or he may use it in therapy. What's most important is what it means to you. If anything, it sounds like it can stimulate discussion about your feelings and reactions.
((((happyflower))))
gg
Posted by happyflower on June 10, 2005, at 17:52:47
In reply to Re: Warming the Stone Child!!!!!!!!! » happyflower, posted by gardenergirl on June 10, 2005, at 17:39:22
Thanks gardenergirl! I have a feeling that he might know about this tape because he sounds a lot like her sometimes on what he says about the abused child as an adult. But then again, it feels really creepy sometimes on how we seem connected in our lives that see too simular, too many odd connections. lol It is almost like we are soul mates but in a therapy client sort of way.
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