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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by pegasus on May 27, 2005, at 10:27:07
In reply to termination continued - sad, posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
Interesting termination technique. I know for a fact that not all terminations go like this. An approach that I personally think is more helpful is to work on all the issues that the idea of termination brings up, and just be very frank about the loss and grieving, etc. But keeping the nature of the relationship as supportive as ever. It's the attachment theory idea: if we attach to our therapists, then they become a safe home from which we can go out and try new things. And eventually you just need to check in with that safe home less and less often as you grow.
Taking away the sense of a safe home seems like it would cause insecurity and clinging, rather than the independence successful termination requires. The approach of weaning you off of your dependency on him by actually changing the nature of your relationship sounds really painful. Too bad he can't let you continue to see him as a safe home that you just don't need to go back to so often anymore.
Well, anyway, what I mean is that I'm really sorry, and I understand how this would be very painful.
(((ShortE)))
pegasus
Posted by messadivoce on May 27, 2005, at 11:02:43
In reply to termination continued - sad, posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
Ick ick ick ick ick ick.
I agree with Pegasus. You're already losing someone important to you. You don't need to have the rules changed on you too.
Dear ShortE, it's not *just* about you, it's about the two of you together, trying to make some sense of this termination thing, which never makes NO SENSE at all. None.
I think he's having trouble with termination. I'm sure he'll miss you. A lot. I wish he would tell you that (maybe he did?). I know it wouldn't make it feel better, but perhaps more authentic? As though you are seeing this loss for what it is, instead of contrived notions of what it it "should" be?
ShortE, I am sending you all the strength and love I can. Just keep going, don't be afraid to keep going.
(((((ShortE)))))
Posted by Tamar on May 27, 2005, at 14:03:38
In reply to termination continued - sad, posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
Oh, it hurts so much!
I think my T did something similar; I felt the atmosphere was different the last couple of sessions I had with him. I felt as if he expected me to be more grown-up, and I felt like I wanted to regress; I just wanted him to hold me like a little girl. Before that my feelings about him hadn’t been anywhere near childlike!
I can understand that your T wants you to think carefully about what life will be like after termination. That he wants to point out to you some of the things you rely on him for. And that he also wants you to realise how far you’ve come (although – and I’m not intending to criticize him – the word ‘addicted’ is quite a strong one).
I think it’s quite true what Voce said: he will miss you. I would imagine that colours his approach to termination a little.
(((((ShortE)))))
I’m sorry you feel so awful. It is awful preparing to say goodbye to someone so precious. I hope you’ll be able to talk with him about those feelings, because getting through the loss is something that really needs to be talked about before the loss.
Sending you big hugs.
Tamar
Posted by shrinking violet on May 27, 2005, at 14:31:28
In reply to termination continued - sad, posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
> And I know he still cares about me, he told me so, and that withdrawing the nurturing, the kind understanding I have come to count on, is part of that caring. He wants me NOT to be dependant on him, he wants me to be able to take care of myself.
((((((Shortelise))))))
I'm crying as I write this, because I'm going through this too and it HURTS so much, more than anything I've ever experienced (or let myself experience, I should say).I often wonder if that concept is something they tell themselves so they can sleep at night, so they can hurt us and have it not bother them (i.e. it's for their own good, the way a vet might have to temporarily hurt an animal to make it better in the end). But I'm not sure I agree with the philosophy, because they don't know how MUCH it hurts, how anguishing it is, and it doesn't go away with a pinch and a breath, it lingers, and it's horrid.
I hope that's what my T is thinking, in turning her back on me now when I need her most. I hope she at least thinks she's doing it for me. I hope it isn't something I've done to her to wear her out, or make her hate me or test her limits so much she has nothing else to give. I guess I'll never know, and of course not knowing, I blame me.
I'm glad you and your T are at least having this dialogue and so you know his thoughts and feelings, so when it does hurt, you can at least be reassured he's doing it for you (I'm still not sure I agree with it, it seems twisted to me).
I wish you as much peace as you can get through this.
SV
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 13:37:27
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Shortelise, posted by pinkeye on May 26, 2005, at 20:43:48
I know when I write about termination it brings up lots of other people's feelings about it. I wiah it weren't something I need help with here, because of that.
I don't feel blamed for my intensity at all, really. I don't feel he is blaming me. I think he is informing me.
It's hard to let go of the little world I have created around him. Addiction is an ugly word.
Thank you, Pinkeye.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 13:48:14
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad, posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 21:19:00
I swear it's everything I can do to stop myself throwing a huge tantrum on his rug! I feel just like my two year old friend seems to - you won't give me what I want, what I deem I need, so what else can I do but stop here and now, throw myself to the ground and have a screaming fit?
Wouldn't that be a little funny! I wonder what he would do? It would be a sight, me in my silver jewellry and nice, pressed, kicking and howling on the floor!
A series of small losses. That is really astute, Dinah. It's exactly how it feels. Each time I go to see him, I lose something more. But this last time he did assure me that he cares about me. That helps.
Thanks Dinah.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:01:03
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Shortelise, posted by Daisym on May 26, 2005, at 21:29:39
I AM ashamed. I am so ashamed. And I am ashamed to be "addicted" still to therapy. It's so ugly. Yes, it's the label that hurts so much, it really is. The "you are addicted" words. It feels like a pointed finger. Labels. SInce I was hospitalized as a teenager, I have hated labels, and it didn't occur to me until you defined it as a label. Thank you, Daisy!
It's not so much that he is withdrawing the kindness, it's that he's not helping me through the process as he used to. (Forive me if I contradict myself.) What do I mean ... I'm not sure. He is still kind, but not nurturing. It's as if he is kindly saying, no, you can figure that out for yourself. No, I won't baby you through this. No, you it's not appropriate anymore to approach this or that in this manner.
I guess he feels there are things I need to understand, ways I still need him - he says that if I were to leave and not come back at this point,he has complete confidence I would be fine, that I would be more than fine. I could do that. But as we all now know, I am ADDICTED to therapy.
(string of invective here)
Thanks DaisyM. I do trust that he actaully knows the best way to do this. I just hate him for it. :-)
ShortE
Posted by Dinah on May 28, 2005, at 14:11:01
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Dinah, posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 13:48:14
That would help, knowing he cares.
I told my therapist this week about my internal temper tantrum.
I told him "Now's the point when I'm internally stomping my feet and telling you that if you understood, you wouldn't need for me to tell you." and later "Since I had to tell you, anything you say doesn't count."
It was a nice compromise, I thought, between actually having the tantrum and swallowing the anger.
He decided to be amused.
((((ShortE))))
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:12:22
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Shortelise, posted by littleone on May 26, 2005, at 21:51:19
Thanks for the kick in the pants to my T, Littleone. I rather enjoyed the image - you small, with pointy little feet so a kick in the pants HURTS!
My T did hold my hand through it all. He was patient, kind, gentle, etc. It's just now that he's saying, sorry ShortE, no more hand holding, kiddo.
Maybe he jumped on this thing this time because I have done it so many times with him,brought something he said, but brought it out of context. In fact, I am sure that's why he did. Ok, he's right, I should not do that to people. But tome he is not people, he's my T, but his point is, I guess, now I must practice with him what I've learned with him...??
Ugh.
I have three cats, a 12 year old, an 8 month old and a ten week old. The two younger ones are a comedy team, and I have spend lots of time watching them and laughing.
And as soon as I can find some local strawberries, I am going to make a strawberry shortcake. When I read your post a couple of days ago, I decided to do that. It's one of my ulitmate comfort foods.
Thanks again, Littlone.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:13:22
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad, posted by sleepygirl on May 27, 2005, at 0:33:30
Thanks Sleepygirl. You get it.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:15:39
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad, posted by happyflower on May 27, 2005, at 9:39:46
Happyflower, maybe it'll be easier for you because your therapy has been shorter? I hope so.
And as you can see, we're here for each other, and we'll help you through it as best we can.
Thanks, Happyflower, for the hugs and kind words.
(((happyflower)))
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:20:09
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Shortelise, posted by pegasus on May 27, 2005, at 10:27:07
If I gave you his 'phone number would you call him up and say that to him?
Maybe it's because of the way I am that has prompted him to use this technique with me. He says he has been trying to hlep me through my termniation feelings for the past two years. I don't see it that way, but I am about as circumcspect as a canary when it comes to therapy.
Thank you Pegasus. This is really food for thought and will absolutely be food for discussion next time I see him..
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:22:48
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Shortelise, posted by messadivoce on May 27, 2005, at 11:02:43
I can't imagine that he'll miss me, frankly, but I would like it if he did. But what's to miss? God, that makes me sad.
He did tell me he cares about me and that it's difficult for him too. Although I do believe he cares, I can't believe he'd miss me.
Thank you for the strength and love. You are so kind.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:26:41
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Shortelise, posted by Tamar on May 27, 2005, at 14:03:38
I really need to clarify that our last session is nowhere in the offing. I will see him once a month for at least the next six months. I am not going to let go of him, the dirty little ... ahem. Excuse me. I mean, he has given me the freedom to, I guess, get sick of him.
I;m being silly.
We don't talk about loss. It's so painful. But we do need to, and your post clarified that for me. Thank you.
((Tamar))
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:32:14
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Shortelise, posted by shrinking violet on May 27, 2005, at 14:31:28
Oh, Violet, I am so sorry you are suffering so much. At least I can take this stuff back to him, talk about it, get clear on things with him. You've made me count my blessings, and I thank you for that.
Did you believe your T was a good T while you were seeing her? Did she seem to care about you? BEcause if your answers are yes, then I would bet she is doing her best for you now, and continues to care about you in the way she believes is best for you. I truly believe that.
I wish you peace, too, Violet. And I send you warm hugs. Thanks for writing when I know it's a terribly painful thing foryou right now too.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:33:17
In reply to termination continued - sad, posted by Shortelise on May 26, 2005, at 20:27:54
The one with no name is for you - sorry.
ShortE
Posted by daisym on May 28, 2005, at 18:53:31
In reply to Daisy!, posted by Shortelise on May 28, 2005, at 14:33:17
It was a test, right? :) I found it.
I think you have turned what he said into something else. He didn't say you were addicted to therapy -- he said you were addicted to intensity. (right? Did he say therapy too?) I don't see it that way. I see leaving as very similiar to growing up. Leaving "home" means feeling less safe and relying more on your own judgement. It means no more unconditional love, or acceptance. It means dealing with the real world by calling on your strengths and inner resilence.
Doing all that is hard. The rewards are great, but still, it is very hard and scary. But I don't think you are addicted to therapy, anymore than one gets addicted to their parents, or siblings. It is a relationship that has nutured and sustained you. Sometimes the birds don't leave the nest, don't believe they can fly, until they get nudged. And the first few seconds out of the nest are terrifying -- you are free-falling!!! But, then you spread your wings and slow the fall and begin to glide up and away.
You can do this Elyse. I bet your wings are just beautiful too. Just remember to glide for awhile.
Posted by Shortelise on May 29, 2005, at 0:27:39
In reply to Re: Daisy! » Shortelise, posted by daisym on May 28, 2005, at 18:53:31
Yes, it was a test. You passed. :-) Ok, not really, but just in case you need a boost, you can say it was.
He did say I am addicted to the process - therapy - as well as saying I had been addicted to intensity.
But yes, yes, it is like leaving home. But I ran away from there, way too young.
Free fall, hm? I love the metaphor at least.
Thanks Daisy.
ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on May 29, 2005, at 0:29:48
In reply to Re: termination continued - sad » Shortelise, posted by Dinah on May 28, 2005, at 14:11:01
I've often said when I was angry, but I think it will be very helpful to tell him when I am having a tantrum. Interior tantrum.
Argh. I HATE thinking aboout this crap. But I want so much to finsih it properly, not just go away mad and leave it unfinished.
THanks, Dinah.
ShortE
Posted by Jazzed on May 29, 2005, at 8:31:58
In reply to Re: Daisy! » Shortelise, posted by daisym on May 28, 2005, at 18:53:31
And everyone else who responded, but there wasn't room in the subj. line to list. How long has everyone been in therapy. I know Dinah said like 9 years. I see therapy as being either short, like CBT, or long, like you might need it for years, or forever. So, is it a good idea when you start therapy to ask, is this something I might get through quickly, or something that's likely to take a long time? Even if they can't answer for sure, I'd guess it would give us the T's staying power. If they see it as a shorter term process, they might not put up with someone like me, who might need more time to process things. Just curious.
Jazzed
Posted by Dinah on May 29, 2005, at 8:56:34
In reply to Re: Daisy! All of you, Daisy, ShortE, Tamar, mess, posted by Jazzed on May 29, 2005, at 8:31:58
Just celebrated ten years. Planned length is until one of us dies.
But when I first went the estimated length was sixteen to twenty sessions. With the caveat that there was no way to really tell, in therapy. But that that was typical for my presenting problems.
Little did the poor guy know. There are not a few of us who believe we tricked our therapists into therapy. :)
It's a good idea to ask their orientation and whether they consider long term therapy should they believe it sounds necessary. If they're strictly short term, they'll make it clear. If you think you may have issues that will make that a bad match for you, you'll know.
Had I asked my therapist, he'd have said something like "While most of my therapy clients are finished with therapy in six months or less, I've had therapies that last one or two years, or even more. It depends on what develops."
I didn't ask him, so I'm not sure. I'm putting together that answer from things he's said over the years.
Posted by Tamar on May 30, 2005, at 5:25:58
In reply to Re: Daisy! All of you, Daisy, ShortE, Tamar, mess, posted by Jazzed on May 29, 2005, at 8:31:58
> How long has everyone been in therapy. I know Dinah said like 9 years. I see therapy as being either short, like CBT, or long, like you might need it for years, or forever. So, is it a good idea when you start therapy to ask, is this something I might get through quickly, or something that's likely to take a long time?
I was in therapy for six months. My T did short term work. I should probably do some long term therapy one day, when I find the time and money.
I think it's a good idea to ask, because sometimes people start therapy expecting to talk about a and b, and then find they want to talk about x, y and z as well.
Posted by pegasus on May 30, 2005, at 8:12:17
In reply to Re: Daisy! All of you, Daisy, ShortE, Tamar, mess, posted by Jazzed on May 29, 2005, at 8:31:58
I've been in therapy for about 3 years recently. And before that I'd had short stints (say, 6 or 8 sessions) with a couple of different Ts.
I think it would be very hard, though, for a lot of Ts to give any estimate of how long therapy might "take". It kind of depends on what you're hoping to get out of it. If you have a very specific thing to overcome, and a clear definition of what overcoming it would look like, then that's one thing. But I think it's more common to not really know what's wrong, and what being "cured" would look like. So, then therapy could take as long as you want it to. Because, let's face it, we probably all have things we could learn about ourselves, no matter how much therapy we've been through.
I am currently continuing therapy even though I could probably do without it. I'm on good meds which have helped with my obsessions and anxiety. And I've changed a lot of things in my life so that I feel a lot more comfortable with myself. But I'm fascinated by the process, and have plenty of history that I'd love to understand better, and am not quite ready to give up having someone really listen to me. So, I'm not done yet.
pegasus
Posted by shrinking violet on May 31, 2005, at 1:05:53
In reply to Re: Daisy! All of you, Daisy, ShortE, Tamar, mess » Jazzed, posted by Dinah on May 29, 2005, at 8:56:34
>> Just celebrated ten years. Planned length is until one of us dies.
Dinah, you're too funny....Or maybe I'm just reading it in a humorous way when it wasn't intended that way? It's 2 AM here, so maybe give me some leeway.... ;-)I'm also a more than a little jealous. But it's still kind of funny.
Posted by Dinah on May 31, 2005, at 1:23:50
In reply to lol » Dinah, posted by shrinking violet on May 31, 2005, at 1:05:53
Well, he may retire. Or become incapacitated. Or move.
But he won't terminate me just to terminate me or even if by chance I get all better.
This is the end of the thread.
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