![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 120 to 144 of 283. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on May 25, 2005, at 3:50:32
In reply to Brain too fried to think, Alexandra, posted by Dinah on May 25, 2005, at 0:25:24
... I thought I was still in Chapter one.
The bit about the golden fantasy struck me too.
I didn't think I was much of an idealiser...
Rational me knows better than that...
But rational me aside
Yeah.
That really struck a chord with me...
That lady who talked about fantasising that her family would be killed... Well... That used to be a fairly standard and recurrent fantasy of mine when I was a kid. About my mother anyway. Sometimes my Dad would get me. Sometimes a teacher. I don't think it mattered really... Just someone... Anyone...But when we are really small
Before we gain a theory of mind
(the ability to see that other people have beliefs and desires)
When everything revolves around us
And (theorietically) our needs are just met as they arise (sort of...)
Well...
Who wouldn't long for that?
But you realise it is impossible once you realise that other people have needs too.
But part of you doesn't see that...
And just wants to be loved in the sense of someone being there to meet ones needs on demand in a way that is impossible in the real world. And you know that... But...
And that is me, of course.
But yeah, I get that.Then the other lady...
Or maybe it was even the same one.
About how her drama teacher seduced her...
And how her therapy went.
OMG
Thats me.
I went along with the story to a point...
Then thought OMG is that whats going on with me (horror)
Then it was resolved ok (phew)
But then what???
What of life after therapy???Too many buttons to mention...
Posted by pegasus on May 25, 2005, at 11:10:01
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships, posted by alexandra_k on May 24, 2005, at 18:44:17
Yes what you say makes a lot of sense. I especially like the part about how a therapy relationship is like a friendship but not really, and like having a parent but not really, and like having a lover but not really . . . And then your point about reciprocity is right on. Is it a relationship as we usually define them IRL if there is no reciprocity? And then what if one therapist does talk about themself and accept/expect caring from a client, while another doesn't. Is one therapy relationship more approximate than another then?
I am really looking forward to asking Deborah Lott about this. I don't think she was very clear about what she meant. On the other hand, it's been interesting and useful to hear all of our thoughts about how the therapy relationship is approximate.
pegasus
Posted by Tamar on May 25, 2005, at 16:21:44
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships » alexandra_k, posted by pegasus on May 25, 2005, at 11:10:01
I thought the idea of therapy relationships as approximate was interesting. I’ve tended to think of my relationship with my ex T as something completely unlike all other relationships, rather than something approximating to other relationships (although I know there’s been some of that too).
I was very struck by the part under the heading Love, where she says,
‘The therapist’s love is always limited – no therapist can sustain a therapy relationship in which she loves freely because to love freely is to want something back, and to want back is to jeopardize the therapy. Love between two adults requires a two-way relationship, a negotiation of needs, a meshing of realities.’I wonder if all this is necessarily true. Is it true that to love freely means to want something back? Is it even possible to prevent oneself from loving freely? I always thought that love was something outside our control. Also, is it wrong for a therapist to want something back, even if that something is that the client makes an effort to engage with the therapy?
I loved Renee’s Story, at the end of the chapter. And I think it’s significant that Lott says Renee ‘could safely allow herself the vulnerability of loving him and feeling loved.’
Is feeling loved also an approximation? I guess it must be... so why doesn’t it *feel* like an approximation?
Posted by alexandra_k on May 25, 2005, at 23:32:22
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships, posted by Tamar on May 25, 2005, at 16:21:44
> I wonder if all this is necessarily true. Is it true that to love freely means to want something back?
I think so. At the very least it needs the love to be reciprocated. Otherwise it would die. Therapy wouldn't work out very well if our therapists needed us to love them as we need them to love us. It would be reciprocal - but it wouldn't be therapy.
To love you want to spend time with the person. Tell them stuff. Whats on your mind. Whats worrying you. But t's aren't supposed to do that. The love they show is limited...
> I loved Renee’s Story, at the end of the chapter. And I think it’s significant that Lott says Renee ‘could safely allow herself the vulnerability of loving him and feeling loved.’
I worry about that sense of 'feeling loved'. One feels loved because of the nature of the therapy relationship. They are supposed to focus on you for that time. Emotionally hold you etc. But RL isn't like that... It is more reciprocal. I worry that therapy teaches us the wrong messages about the nature of love and caring and about the nature of human relationships.
I worry that it fosters desires along the lines of the golden fantasy. That once those desires are fostered all you have done is made that person dependent on therapy relationships to get those desires met.
I'm not sure whether it is good for RL relationships... I'm not sure...
> Is feeling loved also an approximation? I guess it must be... so why doesn’t it *feel* like an approximation?Whether it is an approximation of love or not kind of depends on how one defines love - I would say.
Can you buy love?
Can you buy the 'love' of a therapist?I would say 'no' to the first and 'yes' to the second. IMO therapy would therefore be an approximation of love.
Not that the feelings are any the less real...
But just that RL love isn't one sided.
It isn't in measured weekly doses.
It isn't dependent on the payment of a fee.
Posted by Tamar on May 26, 2005, at 9:14:03
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships » Tamar, posted by alexandra_k on May 25, 2005, at 23:32:22
> > I wonder if all this is necessarily true. Is it true that to love freely means to want something back?
>
> I think so. At the very least it needs the love to be reciprocated. Otherwise it would die. Therapy wouldn't work out very well if our therapists needed us to love them as we need them to love us. It would be reciprocal - but it wouldn't be therapy.Hmm… I think of the way I love my students, and I think I love them freely, without expecting them to reciprocate. It’s nice if they like me, and if they work hard, but I’ve had students who didn’t work hard and I still loved them. Even when one or two students haven’t liked me much I’ve usually liked them. Some of them are a pain in the *ss, but I still love them. And my students are adults; many of them are older than me.
> To love you want to spend time with the person. Tell them stuff. Whats on your mind. Whats worrying you. But t's aren't supposed to do that. The love they show is limited...
Well, certainly I have more freedom to be myself with my students than a T has with clients. But I’m also somewhat limited; I wouldn’t expect to be telling them much about my private life. However, we can talk about things that aren’t too personal, and it doesn’t seem to stop me feeling love for them. And love always has limits, in all relationships, doesn’t it?
> > I loved Renee’s Story, at the end of the chapter. And I think it’s significant that Lott says Renee ‘could safely allow herself the vulnerability of loving him and feeling loved.’
>
> I worry about that sense of 'feeling loved'. One feels loved because of the nature of the therapy relationship. They are supposed to focus on you for that time. Emotionally hold you etc. But RL isn't like that... It is more reciprocal. I worry that therapy teaches us the wrong messages about the nature of love and caring and about the nature of human relationships.
>
> I worry that it fosters desires along the lines of the golden fantasy. That once those desires are fostered all you have done is made that person dependent on therapy relationships to get those desires met.
>
> I'm not sure whether it is good for RL relationships... I'm not sure...Yes, that is a hard question. Maybe it works through a combination of the relationship and the subject matter.
> > Is feeling loved also an approximation? I guess it must be... so why doesn’t it *feel* like an approximation?
>
> Whether it is an approximation of love or not kind of depends on how one defines love - I would say.
>
> Can you buy love?
> Can you buy the 'love' of a therapist?
>
> I would say 'no' to the first and 'yes' to the second. IMO therapy would therefore be an approximation of love.I’m not sure I’d say yes even to the second. I’m not convinced that feeling loved by the therapist has much to do with paying a fee. I think it’s about an emotional investment rather than a financial one. You can buy the services of a therapist but there’s no guarantee you’re going to feel loved (or be loved).
> Not that the feelings are any the less real...
> But just that RL love isn't one sided.
> It isn't in measured weekly doses.
> It isn't dependent on the payment of a fee.Well, it’s certainly true that the feelings are just as real in therapy as IRL. I’ve been thinking a bit about the one-sidedness or inequality that people point to in therapy and I’m curious about the possibility of thinking of it in terms of a petit différend (are you interested in Lyotard?)...
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 9:40:33
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships » alexandra_k, posted by Tamar on May 26, 2005, at 9:14:03
> I’m not sure I’d say yes even to the second. I’m not convinced that feeling loved by the therapist has much to do with paying a fee. I think it’s about an emotional investment rather than a financial one. You can buy the services of a therapist but there’s no guarantee you’re going to feel loved (or be loved).
I absolutely agree. I even talked to my therapist once. I told him that I thought it would be rude of me to want him to like me or care about me. Because I was paying him to be there for specified time and in a specified context. But that any feelings he felt toward me or any of his patients were his, and weren't guaranteed with the fee. I think that was when my therapist started to have genuine fondness for me. Or somewhere in that time frame when we were struggling with that overarching concept.
Probably because that's when I started exhibiting my emotional investment in the relationship, and he started investing emotionally himself.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 26, 2005, at 18:51:47
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships » alexandra_k, posted by Tamar on May 26, 2005, at 9:14:03
> Hmm… I think of the way I love my students, and I think I love them freely, without expecting them to reciprocate. It’s nice if they like me, and if they work hard, but I’ve had students who didn’t work hard and I still loved them. Even when one or two students haven’t liked me much I’ve usually liked them. Some of them are a pain in the *ss, but I still love them. And my students are adults; many of them are older than me.
Yes. But you are like the therapist there.
Wouldn't that be an 'approximation' of love in your relationships just there?
> Well, certainly I have more freedom to be myself with my students than a T has with clients. But I’m also somewhat limited; I wouldn’t expect to be telling them much about my private life. However, we can talk about things that aren’t too personal, and it doesn’t seem to stop me feeling love for them. And love always has limits, in all relationships, doesn’t it?Yeah. But there is a similar power imbalance in teaching relationships as there is in therapy relationsips. Thats why there is a general policy of not getting involved (ie sexually) in both cases...
> Yes, that is a hard question. Maybe it works through a combination of the relationship and the subject matter.
I'm not sure whether it does work.
Thats what I have been wondering...
People get to there...
People get to that point...
How many people come out the other side?
Wake up one day and say
'Why on earth am I paying you to listen to me and care about me when I can find that for free in the real world? Why on earth would I find more satisfaction out of an artificially contrived one sided relationship than with what I can find in a reciprocal RL relationship?'
How many people get there?
And how many people just get stuck...
> > Can you buy love?
> > Can you buy the 'love' of a therapist?
> > I would say 'no' to the first and 'yes' to the second. IMO therapy would therefore be an approximation of love.
> I’m not sure I’d say yes even to the second. I’m not convinced that feeling loved by the therapist has much to do with paying a fee.Paying a fee seems to be a necessary though not sufficient condition. Nobody will work with you if you can't pay them - but even if you do pay them there is no guarantee...
>I’m curious about the possibility of thinking of it in terms of a petit différend (are you interested in Lyotard?)...
???
I haven't heard that expression or that person...
Do you want to say some more???
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:09:47
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships » Tamar, posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 9:40:33
One day, when we're not doing other stuff as we are at the moment, I'd love to bring this book to therapy and go through parts of Chapter 2. It may be my favorite chapter. I have so much to comment about on it that it might take several posts, linked to her sections.
The disproportionate importance of small things -
Ohhhh, that's a big one for me. I am soooo aware of everything in therapy. It's like I turn into one of those great big satellite receivers. And because I have limited information about my therapist, I tend to build on those small bits of information. I remember everything he ever says about himself personally, so that I can put together a picture of this person that knows me more intimately than anyone, yet I don't know all that well. I draw conclusions about him from his office. His old office was full of... unusual, shall we say, decor. It was a gorgeous room, but the actual choice of small items was not the norm. So once when he mentioned that his boss had asked him to stay and that caused him to be late for our session, I couldn't focus until I asked him about it. I told him his room didn't look like the office of someone who would refer to anyone else as his "boss". He was really surprised, because he said I was right. He had purposely chosen to use the word so as to excuse his latenes. He didn't ordinarily. His new office is all angular art deco. :(
Or his weight. He once told me that he ate when under stress. And I've noticed that myself. When he's relaxed and happy, he loses weight. So when he gains weight I worry. I want to tell him to please be careful, and start exercising, because I don't want anything to happen to him. But of course I can't. Because he's not my friend, he's my therapist.
Attachment and dependency -
Again, a huuuge topic for me. Probably the centerpiece of most of the work we've done, it's so huge. He was an excellent object for all of that to be played out on. When Lott quoted the young woman who said "I fear coming to her office and finding a note that she will no longer be seeing clients." I had to smile in recognition. I've probably had every conceivable scenario involving my therapist leaving me run through my head at least once. And driven him crazy by bringing them to therapy.
Therapist's Presence Brings Comfort -
I've always been very vocal about my therapist's presence bringing me comfort. Well, as long as he feels the same. If he doesn't he does more harm than good. His office no longer needs to be the same. I now have met him at a satellite office of his, and caused him dismay by not minding a bit. As long as he's there, and feels the same. I was only attached to the old office. It's like he's a blankie, or my usual imagery, a milky mother to a suckling baby. So naturally, I was most interested in the section on types of transference
Child - Parent
Alike and Different -
This was never really a huge issue for me. I knew he was a lot different. And he is too smart to talk about any area our fundamental values might differ. Do any of you measure yourselves against your therapist for similarities and differences?
Sory to go on for so long, and to make it so personal. But Chapter 2 resonates so much with me. And it is a very personal chapter for me. It normalizes so much of what I experience. I think that's the great power of this book.
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:13:46
In reply to Other aspects of Chapter 2, posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:09:47
This one threw me a bit, because unlike most of the book, it was something outside my experience.
When she said the relationship was the item that therapists and clients felt least comfortable discussing, except for sex, I was astonished. My therapist has always made it a perfectly ok topic. (Sex too, for that matter). Which is just as well, since it has taken up so much time. All of my issues seem to come up time and time again in the context of our relationship. All the work we're doing now is done with the backdrop of years and years of discussing our relationship in ways that these topics are already open and ready for exploration. I can't imagine a therapist being uncomfortable discussing the relationship. Or sex for that matter. I guess I'm spoiled there.
How do therapists find out what their clients' real issues are if they don't talk about their relationship? Because I lie. Well, not really lie. But I don't think I'd walk in and say I'm an endless well of need. And he certainly would never notice it when I talk of my other relationships. He'd think I was sort of schizoid. So only by focussing on my relationship was he able to see that my pathology was more borderline than schizoid. Don't other therapies get stymied by that? If the relationship between the therapist and client isn't discussed?
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:33:57
In reply to Chapter 2. Communicating feelings., posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:13:46
Eeek. The touchiest and most embarassing section for last...
I feel exposed all over just thinking about it. And I don't think we've ever addressed it directly in therapy. Toooo touchy a subject.
"To be special means to have reached the therapist on some more personal level, to be appreciated for more than one's fees. To be special is to be needed back."
Wow.
One of our recurring jokes now is based on my statement that I'd never know whether he cared about me as more than an income stream. For some reason, that term struck his fancy.
I've always known I seek to reach him on a personal level. That can mean a lot of things.
I feel silly happy when I elicit a drawl from him. He's mostly gotten rid of it, but when he's most authentically him, he still drawls.
I want so much for him to be fond of me. For him to be amused by me. For him to give me the casual pat on the head sort of affection that I crave.
I want for him to recognize how well I know him. So that when he acknowledges that yes, I was right when I guessed he always made his bed. Or yes, I was right when I guessed that he didn't often use the word "boss". Or what he said to me the other day, that meant a whole lot to me. He said that when something's wrong at home, or he's worried about something, he comes into therapy thinking he's got on a good front, but that I can always see through it, no matter how hard he tries. I think that meant more to me than when he expresses fondness for me in words.
Actually, him saying something about me in words means not all that much to me. The time he told me that when he tells me he cares about me, he means more or less what I mean when I say I love him doesn't mean as much as those moments.
Moments when he drawls. Moments when he smiles, or chuckles, or throws back his head and laughs at something I've said that's very "me". Moments when he acknowledges that I can *see* the real him.
He tells me I'm special. He puts it in a way that's not terribly personal. He says I've been with him for far longer than any other client. That I've invested more in the relationship, and he's invested more in the relationship through hard work and "fighting to relationship" than he has with anyone else he sees. And he apologized once for not distinguishing me from the average client on some reaction or another, because I told him what's the point in putting in ten years of hard work if I end up being no closer to him than when I first started.
But even that acknowledgement of the work we've put in, and the fighting to relationship that I so value, doesn't mean as much as a chuckle or a drawl.
They mean too much.
I've talked about this indirectly I suppose. But after re-reading this chapter, I see that I've been avoiding talking about it directly.
Posted by annierose on May 26, 2005, at 19:43:06
In reply to Other aspects of Chapter 2, posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:09:47
Dinah -
Yes I notice and thrive on our similarities as small (& and some out of our control) as they might be. And I make a list.We both have first & last names with repeating consonants.
We are both left handed.
We both have 2 children, 1 girl, 1 boy.
We both seem to operate on a high level of energy.
We both opened our own businesses in 1989 (I'm fairly sure that is when she opened her own practice, but I wasn't seeing her then)
And yes, anything that she says or does that is different from her norm, I notice and take mental note ("not her usual reply, wonder what that means"). A small "for instance", as we parted today, she was the first to say, "enjoy your holiday weekend," she never initiates that type of good-bye. I usually will say that after she tells me our time is up.Doesn't it seem like sometimes that have been really thinking about you and all of a sudden, share this wealth of insight that pulls A, B, and C together? Once she began a session, "I've been really curious about x,y and z. What's happening with that?" Hmmm, I thought, that interests her.
Office decor: don't know what that says about her.
Very well organized, not fussy (thankfully), kind of simple, some art work is dated. I don't look around, so I don't notice too much anyway.
Therapist brings comfort: Yes, a big one for me too. Sometimes when we're quiet and she asks, "what's running through your mind?" (on the list of least favorite questions), I'll reply, "sometimes it's just nice knowing you're there."I do wonder about her personal values. I'm fairly liberal and don't know if I shock her sometimes. But she doesn't reply as if I do. Once when I made a disparaging remark of our President, she laughed and then quickly recovered.
I like it when I make her laugh. And I like it when she replies with humor sometimes, when it's appropriate.
Yes, a solid chapter indeed.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 26, 2005, at 22:38:04
In reply to Re: Other aspects of Chapter 2, posted by annierose on May 26, 2005, at 19:43:06
Posted by daisym on May 27, 2005, at 1:32:58
In reply to Other aspects of Chapter 2, posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:09:47
****One day, when we're not doing other stuff as we are at the moment, I'd love to bring this book to therapy and go through parts of Chapter 2.
>>>I feel like I'm already going through chapter 2 bit by bit. Maybe that is why it was so hard for me to read again.
The disproportionate importance of small things -
Yes! Like reading into a sigh. or a change in voice tone. I don't care about the decor and I rearrange the couch pillows the way *I* want them.
Attachment and dependency -
*****Again, a huuuge topic for me. Probably the centerpiece of most of the work we've done, it's so huge. He was an excellent object for all of that to be played out on. When Lott quoted the young woman who said "I fear coming to her office and finding a note that she will no longer be seeing clients." I had to smile in recognition. I've probably had every conceivable scenario involving my therapist leaving me run through my head at least once. And driven him crazy by bringing them to therapy.
>>>>OK, you already know -- ME TOO!! I'm shocked, shocked! that this has happened to me. I've said the note thing to my therapist -- I'm worried I will get here and find a note, "Gone fishing." His response was, "I hate fishing." :) But I still have that fear, or the fear that I'm there on the wrong day or wrong time. And I consider time slots "mine" so I don't want them given away if I can't make it, or if I change. Not rational, not rational at all. I'm really glad that my therapist is so OK with this gigantic attachment I have. I don't want to be pushed away or set back. He told me once that he keeps hoping I will just accept the dependency and sink into it and let myself need him. Then we can really get to work. I wish more of my friends IRL who have or are in therapy had this issue. Or if they do, I wish they would talk about it. I feel like the therapy patient you hear jokes about, clinging and upset if they don't have access to their therapist.
Therapist's Presence Brings Comfort -
Usually. Not always. Sometimes it brings on anxiety.
Child - Parent -- that is how I've always thought of this attachment until very recently.
Alike and Different -
*****This was never really a huge issue for me. I knew he was a lot different. And he is too smart to talk about any area our fundamental values might differ. Do any of you measure yourselves against your therapist for similarities and differences?
We have the same sense of humor and we are both quick to quip. I want to believe we have similar values, but for all I really know, he swings naked in the trees on the weekends. I suspect he likes nature more than I do because he laughed really hard when I said I only camp at Hiltons.
Posted by daisym on May 27, 2005, at 1:36:46
In reply to Chapter 2. Communicating feelings., posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:13:46
I had the same reaction of astonishment. It was so uncomfortable to talk about "our" relationship at the beginning of therapy but now it is the center piece of most discussions. We swing away from it and then back to it. If I say something about it not being real, he gets really offended.
Posted by daisym on May 27, 2005, at 1:43:36
In reply to Chapter 2. Wanting to be special., posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:33:57
I think this is why this chapter made me squirm. It is the topic that is "up" right now. I've fully admitted to wanting to be special and we've touched on sexual feelings and love around this. I said I was surprised by how much I really cared about him and he was surprised that this surprised me. Doesn't attachment = caring?
Today I told him I didn't want him to worry about me. He said he won't if I tell him I'm not going to harm myself but that he is still concerned and will think of me. *I* don't get to control *his* feelings. But if I want to be special to him, how come having him worry doesn't feel good?
The one thing I'm clear on is that I don't want him to need me back. Too many people in my life need me. I need a place where that doesn't happen. But she is absolutely right when she talks about how hard it is to tell your therapist your feelings about this. I guess that goes back to your relatinship together and the orientatin of the therapy.
Posted by Dinah on May 27, 2005, at 4:22:46
In reply to Re: Other aspects of Chapter 2, posted by daisym on May 27, 2005, at 1:32:58
> The disproportionate importance of small things -
>
> Yes! Like reading into a sigh. or a change in voice tone. I don't care about the decor and I rearrange the couch pillows the way *I* want them.Me too!! And often they stay that way. I'd think it was territorial behavior, except that I really do like to burrow in the corner of the sofa. It's safer there.
>
> Attachment and dependency -
>
> *****Again, a huuuge topic for me. Probably the centerpiece of most of the work we've done, it's so huge. He was an excellent object for all of that to be played out on. When Lott quoted the young woman who said "I fear coming to her office and finding a note that she will no longer be seeing clients." I had to smile in recognition. I've probably had every conceivable scenario involving my therapist leaving me run through my head at least once. And driven him crazy by bringing them to therapy.
>
> >>>>OK, you already know -- ME TOO!! I'm shocked, shocked! that this has happened to me. I've said the note thing to my therapist -- I'm worried I will get here and find a note, "Gone fishing." His response was, "I hate fishing." :) But I still have that fear, or the fear that I'm there on the wrong day or wrong time. And I consider time slots "mine" so I don't want them given away if I can't make it, or if I change. Not rational, not rational at all. I'm really glad that my therapist is so OK with this gigantic attachment I have. I don't want to be pushed away or set back. He told me once that he keeps hoping I will just accept the dependency and sink into it and let myself need him. Then we can really get to work. I wish more of my friends IRL who have or are in therapy had this issue. Or if they do, I wish they would talk about it. I feel like the therapy patient you hear jokes about, clinging and upset if they don't have access to their therapist.What amazes me is how inventive my mind can be. If there are fifty ways to leave your lover, there must be thousands of ways to be abandoned by your therapist. :)
> We have the same sense of humor and we are both quick to quip. I want to believe we have similar values, but for all I really know, he swings naked in the trees on the weekends. I suspect he likes nature more than I do because he laughed really hard when I said I only camp at Hiltons.
I think I'm kind of lucky that way. I know darn well I wouldn't like him as a friend or other intimate, and I know darn well he wouldn't like me that way. It makes things so much clearer, you know?
Posted by Dinah on May 27, 2005, at 4:24:18
In reply to Re: Chapter 2. Communicating feelings. » Dinah, posted by daisym on May 27, 2005, at 1:36:46
I know some people don't approve of that sort of therapy. Thinking it's too much about what goes on in that room. But in my case at least, it isn't. It's about what goes on when I'm not hiding myself.
Posted by Dinah on May 27, 2005, at 4:30:35
In reply to Re: Chapter 2. Wanting to be special., posted by daisym on May 27, 2005, at 1:43:36
After thinking it over, I'm wondering why I was so embarassed about it. In many ways it's not a big deal.
So what if I spike the ball and do an endzone dance when I get him to drawl or laugh? It's not like I change the content of my sessions to elicit those things, because I have no real idea *how* to elicit them. I just enjoy them when they happen. In fact, he's most likely to drawl when he's tired and exasperated. I certainly don't try for that.
And as far as knowing him... Well, maybe that's a holdover from the old schizotypal diagnosis. Maybe my pleasure comes from thinking "Oh yeah! Well how can I be schizotypal if I'm RIGHT?"
That's not all of it though. Hmmmm.... That's a personal quality of mine that he does think is valuable and rare. As well as inconvenient and painful.
I guess everyone wants to feel special.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 5:40:18
In reply to Re: Chapter 2. Wanting to be special. » daisym, posted by Dinah on May 27, 2005, at 4:30:35
> I guess everyone wants to feel special.
Yeah.
I think they do.
Posted by Dinah on May 27, 2005, at 7:04:16
In reply to Re: Chapter 2. Wanting to be special. » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 5:40:18
Yeah.
So... maybe... the important thing to realize is whether we're getting that need met *somewhere*, and how and when we're trying?
Posted by Tamar on May 27, 2005, at 10:05:27
In reply to Chapter 2. Communicating feelings., posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:13:46
> This one threw me a bit, because unlike most of the book, it was something outside my experience.
>
> When she said the relationship was the item that therapists and clients felt least comfortable discussing, except for sex, I was astonished. My therapist has always made it a perfectly ok topic. (Sex too, for that matter). Which is just as well, since it has taken up so much time. All of my issues seem to come up time and time again in the context of our relationship. All the work we're doing now is done with the backdrop of years and years of discussing our relationship in ways that these topics are already open and ready for exploration. I can't imagine a therapist being uncomfortable discussing the relationship. Or sex for that matter. I guess I'm spoiled there.Well, I don't think my T was uncomfortable about it, but we never once discussed the relationship. He probably would have been prepared to if I'd ever raised it as a subject. And indeed, I tried to a few times, but never got very far. But it was a short term therapy, and I suspect he might not have wanted to emphasise the transference thing too much. A couple of times he suggested it might be hard for me to talk to a man about certain things, but actually I feel entirely comfortable with men, so I insisted his gender didn't made a difference to me. But that wasn't really about the relationship.
> How do therapists find out what their clients' real issues are if they don't talk about their relationship? Because I lie. Well, not really lie. But I don't think I'd walk in and say I'm an endless well of need. And he certainly would never notice it when I talk of my other relationships. He'd think I was sort of schizoid. So only by focussing on my relationship was he able to see that my pathology was more borderline than schizoid. Don't other therapies get stymied by that? If the relationship between the therapist and client isn't discussed?
Yeah, I think it does cause problems. In my case it should have been pretty obvious that I would find the relationship very important, and that I'd experience lots of transference, because of the stuff I was talking about. It hurt very much not to be able to talk about it. I wished so much that he would raise it, but since he didn't I assumed we could only talk about it if I brought it up, and I was just too embarrassed.
It's the only thing that I wish we'd done differently in the work we did together. I got a lot out of therapy, but I wonder if it would have been less painful (indeed, if it would be less painful now) if we could have talked about the relationship.
Sorry, I didn't mean to rant. It's a sensitive area for me.
Posted by Tamar on May 27, 2005, at 10:19:24
In reply to Other aspects of Chapter 2, posted by Dinah on May 26, 2005, at 19:09:47
> The disproportionate importance of small things -
Oh yes. If he ever said anything that had any personal resonance at all, I remembered it – his exact words, his expression, his body language. I was even aware of a change in my tone of voice when I replied.
Actually, his body language was something I noticed a great deal. There was one session when I just didn’t know what to make of some of his body language and I spent hours trying to analyse it. And it was probably of negligible significance.
> Attachment and dependency -
It always surprises me when this comes up for me. Recently I was afraid he might leave his current job and work somewhere else – and this fear arose since I terminated! I just don’t want him to go away without telling me. Silly, perhaps, but probably inevitable.
> Therapist's Presence Brings Comfort -
Yes. Even imagining his presence brings comfort. Sometimes even now when stuff happens to trigger me I imagine reaching out my arm and taking hold of his hand. And I never held his hand in therapy; I just like to think of him as physically present.
> Child - Parent
I didn’t get much of this until right at the end, when we were talking about puberty and I suddenly felt like I was talking to a father figure. It took me completely by surprise, since I’d always had much more adult feelings for him!
> Alike and Different -
This was another surprise to me. I happen to know where he went to school, and I have a rough idea where he lives, so I compare those things to my own education and place of residence. And I compare his success in his job with my struggles. At first I was confused because I imagined it as feelings of competitiveness, and I’m not usually very competitive, but then I realised that actually I was comparing these things because I wanted to find things in common (so we could become friends and hang out in coffee shops…).
> Sory to go on for so long, and to make it so personal. But Chapter 2 resonates so much with me. And it is a very personal chapter for me. It normalizes so much of what I experience. I think that's the great power of this book.Yeah, it resonated a lot with me too. I like that normalizing feeling!
Posted by Tamar on May 27, 2005, at 10:41:09
In reply to Re: Approximate relationships » Tamar, posted by alexandra_k on May 26, 2005, at 18:51:47
> > Hmm… I think of the way I love my students, and I think I love them freely, without expecting them to reciprocate. It’s nice if they like me, and if they work hard, but I’ve had students who didn’t work hard and I still loved them. Even when one or two students haven’t liked me much I’ve usually liked them. Some of them are a pain in the *ss, but I still love them. And my students are adults; many of them are older than me.
>
> Yes. But you are like the therapist there.Yeah, that’s my point. Maybe a therapist can love freely, without hoping for reciprocation.
> Wouldn't that be an 'approximation' of love in your relationships just there?
I just don’t see that it’s approximate. Maybe I’m being dense. Feels like love, looks like love, is love. In some cases it could be approximate, like in my bigger classes when I don’t know my students very well. But in small classes I think it is love.
What I will say is that it’s not so much like love for my friends (adults) as love for my children. It’s kind of maternal.
> > Well, certainly I have more freedom to be myself with my students than a T has with clients. But I’m also somewhat limited; I wouldn’t expect to be telling them much about my private life. However, we can talk about things that aren’t too personal, and it doesn’t seem to stop me feeling love for them. And love always has limits, in all relationships, doesn’t it?
>
> Yeah. But there is a similar power imbalance in teaching relationships as there is in therapy relationsips. Thats why there is a general policy of not getting involved (ie sexually) in both cases...Absolutely. And I don’t tend to think of my students as potential sexual partners, possibly because I feel maternal towards them.
> > Yes, that is a hard question. Maybe it works through a combination of the relationship and the subject matter.
>
> I'm not sure whether it does work.
> Thats what I have been wondering...
> People get to there...
> People get to that point...
> How many people come out the other side?
> Wake up one day and say
> 'Why on earth am I paying you to listen to me and care about me when I can find that for free in the real world? Why on earth would I find more satisfaction out of an artificially contrived one sided relationship than with what I can find in a reciprocal RL relationship?'
> How many people get there?
> And how many people just get stuck...Well, I can’t answer for other people, but I didn’t feel I was ‘employing’ my T just to listen to me and care for me. I was talking to him because of his incisiveness and perception about things I found hard to talk about; things my friends didn’t know how to respond to. It was important to me to believe that he cared about me because it helped me to trust him so that I could say things I’d never dream of saying to other people. Things that didn’t show me in a very good light.
> > > Can you buy love?
> > > Can you buy the 'love' of a therapist?
> > > I would say 'no' to the first and 'yes' to the second. IMO therapy would therefore be an approximation of love.
>
> > I’m not sure I’d say yes even to the second. I’m not convinced that feeling loved by the therapist has much to do with paying a fee.
>
> Paying a fee seems to be a necessary though not sufficient condition. Nobody will work with you if you can't pay them - but even if you do pay them there is no guarantee...That’s true.
> >I’m curious about the possibility of thinking of it in terms of a petit différend (are you interested in Lyotard?)...
>
> ???
> I haven't heard that expression or that person...
> Do you want to say some more???
>
I probably can’t explain properly what I mean in one paragraph. Better people than me have tried to explain Lyotard. And I’m not a philosopher. But here goes…Lyotard’s idea of the petit différend comes from his work on Kant’s idea of the Sublime. Sometimes an idea can’t be fully expressed in language. In that case, different parties may have different ways of expressing the idea. These different ways of expressing may rest on assumptions that are so different as to be incomaprable (this situation is a différend). Other times, there may be some assumptions in common, and there can be some degree of mutual understanding, but at the borders of this mutual understanding there may be areas of incomparable assumptions. This situation is a petit différend.
Note: this attempt at a single paragraph summary of Lyotard’s thought is likely to be deeply flawed and would no doubt attract derisive comments from serious philosophers!
Anyway… I think the idea of ‘the therapeutic relationship’ can be understood in terms of the Sublime. And it seems pretty clear that what therapists and clients understand is based on some different premises. It’s still possible for therapists and clients to negotiate the relationship, so it’s not a différend. But there are points at which making a judgment in favour of one side could leave the other side bereft, because the two sides of the relationship involve some boundaries of negotiation in which there are incomparable assumptions. Thus it may be a matter of a petit différend.
Again: one paragraph doesn’t really do the idea justice. And maybe it would fall down at some point. But I’m quite curious about the possibility that the therapeutic relationship involves a petit différend, because it might have interesting personal and political consequences...
Posted by Daisym on May 27, 2005, at 10:56:16
In reply to Re: Chapter 2. Wanting to be special. » daisym, posted by Dinah on May 27, 2005, at 4:30:35
****After thinking it over, I'm wondering why I was so embarassed about it. In many ways it's not a big deal.
>>>>>Don't you think it is because we, as therapy-theory geeks (no offense intended), "know better"? For me, the embarrassment is that it feels sort of school-girlish and not very mature to want this. It is more than that...but I think that is the heart of it. I said I didn't want to be a cliche. I absolutely hate being predictable. And I think I have so much control over myself that if I see something like that coming, I can usually repress it. AND, not only do I want to be special, I TOLD him I want to be special. Sheesh...have I no pride left?
For me, it is an ego thing, it is a childlike thing and it is something I will struggle against because it feels really, really wrong and dangerous. But I can't deny that I feel it. I *do* want to be special.
Posted by Daisym on May 27, 2005, at 10:57:17
In reply to Re: Chapter 2. Wanting to be special. » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on May 27, 2005, at 5:40:18
My therapist rephrases this into:
"Who wouldn't want to be special?"
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