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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on April 16, 2005, at 18:53:29
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » Dinah, posted by katherpoo1 on April 16, 2005, at 18:23:52
Thanks Kat. :)
We have a long and occasionally contentious relationship, and I'm sure we'll fight our way through this as we have on other issues and come out with our relationship intact and maybe even stronger.
If I'm really lucky, he'll forget the whole thing in the stimulation of a week long conference.
If I'm a bit lucky, he'll decide to forget the whole thing and hopes it never comes up again as much as I do.
Posted by fallsfall on April 16, 2005, at 19:18:00
In reply to I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual, posted by Dinah on April 16, 2005, at 18:13:13
(Caution - rambling)
I certainly understand your annoyance at his turning this into something sexual.
My first reaction is that he must see something sexual in your relationship with your father!?! Or why would you putting him in your father's role translate into something sexual?
Now, for me, nothing in the world is every sexual, so I can't imagine what he saw in your relationship with your dad that was sexual. But, I'm not the one to ask because people see sexual things all the time that I miss.
Why did your comment make him think about clients who have sex with their therapists??
"Taking care of" isn't sexual in my book. "Pleasing him" could be more sexual, but there are lots of ways of pleasing someone that aren't sexual. Like getting him a glass of water, or making dinner for him, or being the "perfect" daughter.
I think that some of your reaction to him telling you that it is antitherapeutic for you to take care of him is that I think that you desperately feel that you *need* to take care of him (i.e. that it makes you panic a little thinking that you can't take care of him). Maybe because you are afraid that he won't be able to take care of you if things go badly for him. I think that your drive to take care of him is very strong (in the sense that it is an "old feeling"). Likely from your need to take care of your dad - because that did end up "working" for you. Or did it? Maybe taking care of your dad put the two of you in some kind of equillibrium, but that doesn't mean that it was "good" for either of you. This seems like a good opportunity for you to explore that part of your relationship with your dad. Maybe you will see that other people have a different kind of relationship (but don't ask me what the "healthy" kind would be - I haven't a clue!). Maybe that understanding could help you with some of your other relationships. I don't know. Just a thought.
As for your phone tag. Did you really expect him NOT to call you back?? Of course he called you back. You said that he made you feel icky (in a sexual way). He wasn't going to let that sit over the weekend.
It is therapeutic for you to talk about *wanting* to take care of him. But it is not therapeutic for you to *act* in a way that takes care of him.
I guess I'm a bit confused about when he is talking about "taking care of" and when he is talking about sexual stuff. And I'm also confused about when *you* are talking about taking care of vs. sexual stuff. You tell us frequently that you find out how he is at the beginning of a session so you will know how to act. That seems to be to be "taking care of" him. (And, to be honest, I think that you take care of him more than is helpful for you) But how did the sexual aspect enter all of this???
Sigh. But this isn't the first time that I haven't understood a sexual connection... So my confusion probably has at least as much to do with me as it has to do with you...
Clear as mud, huh?
Posted by Dinah on April 16, 2005, at 19:31:45
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on April 16, 2005, at 19:18:00
The sexual stuff came entirely from him. It came as a complete shock to me. Of all the bad ways I expected him to take it, and I did expect him to take it badly, it never occurred to me that he'd take it sexually. I expected him to take it as a hint that he'd been too open lately about his own problems and to decide to be more of a blank slate, and I really didn't want that. I still don't, since I think it will just lead to more distress to be able to pick up on a feeling and have to speculate as to the cause.
I'm not sure that my need to take care of him is really a need to take care of him per se. It never came about until my father died. I think I have a need to be a nurturing daughter to an adequate father figure. He was always a mother figure to me until now.
I did take the emotional temperature of the room all along, but that's a hard won survival skill and has to do with taking care of me, not him.
It was his voice, Falls. It was horrible.
The whole experience reminded me of the time he was having a resurgence of his problems with dependent women, and he mis-took everything I said in a way that reflected that. And he didn't get better till he admitted the problem to me and pulled himself together, countertransference wise.
I must be tapping into some well of fear of sexually predatory women, or g*d only knows what old pathology of his, that I've never accidentally tapped into before. But he didn't need to countertransfer all over me!!!
Posted by fallsfall on April 16, 2005, at 20:02:33
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on April 16, 2005, at 19:31:45
Amen
Posted by annierose on April 16, 2005, at 22:40:21
In reply to I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual, posted by Dinah on April 16, 2005, at 18:13:13
I don't have any new insights to add, just wanted to let you know that I would be confused by his comments as well. I agree that his response says a lot more about him, than you. Does he think you are trying to seduce him? Doesn't he know you well enough?
Maybe he thinks DEEP down you have a surpressed desire to rip off his .... naaah, can't go down that icky road!
Did you try to google psych conferences and came up empty? Maybe it's something tied into a University?
Also, when he seems surprised how clients think about their therapy, it makes me wonder, hasn't he been to therapy? I know my T has gone, it was a part of her training. So I imagine, rightly or wrongly that she knows all about the strong feelings clients feel for their Ts. My T is psychodynamic, so she encourages those feelings as well.
I like how you bring up all the nuances of the theraputic relationship in your sessions. Interesting stuff always follows. I'll need to do some of the same.
Enjoy what is left of the weekend. Thank you for sharing this difficult topic. I didn't mean to poke fun at the beginning.
-Annierose
Posted by Dinah on April 16, 2005, at 23:59:44
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » Dinah, posted by annierose on April 16, 2005, at 22:40:21
Naww, that's ok. Part of me wants to plain be amused by the whole thing because it was so far off base. While the other part wants to sit down and cry and scrub what he said away. It *is* sort of funny when you think about it. At least part of me thinks so.
I didn't come up with anything when I did every possible permutation of counseling, therapy, conference, dates, etc. Or at the local conference center of the city I'm pretty sure he mentioned, though I could be wrong about it. I think it's a university town, though.
I also vaguely remember it's his birthday sometime around now. So maybe it's one of those conferences that are only vaguely connected with his job as a therapist, which is what he said the training was for.
And actually, he did say training. hmmm.... Yes. So I may be thinking conference, but it might be something else. Yes. I'll bet that's it.
this ends this stream of consciousness post. stay tuned for future streams.
:)
Posted by Dinah on April 17, 2005, at 0:03:54
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » Dinah, posted by annierose on April 16, 2005, at 22:40:21
Ooh, I forgot. Yes, he has been to therapy. But I'm not sure what sort. I didn't get the impression it was long term. He's not psychoanalytically trained, so it wasn't part of his training.
Maybe he felt nothing but collegial.
He really is CBT oriented, you know. With more than a dash of pop psychology thrown in. He does mostly short term work at present, although he worked with a different population years ago.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 17, 2005, at 2:52:47
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on April 16, 2005, at 20:02:33
> Amen
>
Double Amen
Posted by gardenergirl on April 17, 2005, at 2:55:41
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » annierose, posted by Dinah on April 17, 2005, at 0:03:54
Dinah,
I think Falls asked a good question about why your T would equate your taking care of your Dad with something sexual.But his reaction also reminded me of his reaction to dependence. There's stuff there coming from his own fears that has nothing to do with you.
Blech. I'm sorry that happened to you, especially regarding something so important to you.
gg
Posted by Tamar on April 18, 2005, at 4:29:44
In reply to I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual, posted by Dinah on April 16, 2005, at 18:13:13
My two cents – surely if you have developed feelings toward him that depart from your usual view of him as your therapist/mommy, he should view it as a therapeutic opportunity? And if he suspects there’s a sexual element to it (even if there isn’t), shouldn’t he explore that possibility gently and sensitively, especially in view of your sexual circumstances?
I’m very surprised that his first reaction was to talk about clients who have sex with their therapists (rather than clients who desire their therapists sexually). Now, it seems to me you are one of the least likely people in the whole world to have sex with your therapist, which begs the question: why would that be the first thing he thought of? Maybe that’s what his conference or training thing is about... something to do with professional ethics?
No wonder he made you feel icky. Maybe he’s afraid you find him icky and feels hurt by it? I’m sure you’re right – he’s countertransferring all over you. If you can bear to call him on it, he’ll have to explore his own feelings, though it sounds as if he’s firmly in denial at the moment.
I hope it gets easier to deal with after his time away.
Tamar
Posted by cricket on April 18, 2005, at 7:51:06
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on April 16, 2005, at 19:31:45
> I must be tapping into some well of fear of sexually predatory women, or g*d only knows what old pathology of his, that I've never accidentally tapped into before. But he didn't need to countertransfer all over me!!!
>
>
Hi Dinah,
I don't post much here, but your post reminded so much of a dream I had about my T that I wanted to respond.First of all in non-dreaming life there are lots and lots of issues with my T. I've been seeing him for almost 3 years now and I still don't feel comfortable, still don't reveal much of anything to him and am ready to quit every week although for some reason the thought of quitting terrifies me but that's another story.
Anyway, in the dream, as opposed to real life, we did have a good session. I felt soothed and liked. As I stood up to leave, he held out his hand for me to shake (which he does in real life) but as I took it I leaned in to kiss him on the cheek (which I would never do in real life with him but I do live in a sort of kissy cheek culture where it means nothing but how are you? or thank you or take care - certainly nothing sexual)and I meant nothing sexual about it in the dream. But then in the dream my T jumps back and squeals like I just stuck a gun to his head.
I left mortified. But then when I woke up, I thought that's your issue you moron. "A fear of sexually predatory women" as you say, Dinah.
I know that this is no help at all. But know that your T isn't the only one who acts sexually terrified or whatever it is around a client.
From reading your posts though, it sounds like you will work it out with him. I am sure an apology is coming forthwith.
Posted by Dinah on April 18, 2005, at 10:06:15
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on April 17, 2005, at 2:55:41
It was seriously bad timing on my part to mention something I never meant to mention at all on a day when both of us had had a truly crummy week and I had intended to keep it light.
He was probably more likely than usual to react from himself rather than being fully present in the room.
No excuse.
I don't think he suspects anything sexual in my relationship with my father. There was a definite blurring of the roles of wife and daughter, but not in a sexual sense. Never in a sexual sense. Just in that weird triangular way. You know. When I was little, I was aligned with my mother against my father. When I got older, I aligned with my father against my mother. They were incapable of aligning together and I guess the triangle brought some stability.
But it was never sexual. There was more sexuality between my mother and me. Not in that she abused me, but in that she confided inappropriately in me. Shudder, shudder. In fact we've sort of figured that my intense revulsion and refusal to begin to grow into a "woman" probably has its roots there.
But never with Daddy. He was safe.
Posted by Dinah on April 18, 2005, at 10:12:05
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 18, 2005, at 4:29:44
His entire reaction felt defensive rather than contemplative. Overall, I'm not sure he was thinking anything about me whatsoever other than an "Oh no you don't!"
And G*d only knows, the me I bring to therapy is not only pre-puberty, and refuses to grow up, but even if he's confused by the body in front of him... Well, it's plain to the point of ugly (I could be my mother thirty years ago. Seriously. The photos of her could be me if it weren't for the clothes.), overweight, and never makes any effort to appear attractive to him. Certainly no real threat to him, no matter how lusty he is. Of course I prefer to think he's not lusty at all, but rather a eunuch. But his reaction didn't feel like the reaction of a eunuch. A eunuch wouldn't feel defensive. Ewww. Ick.
Posted by Dinah on April 18, 2005, at 10:17:42
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual, posted by cricket on April 18, 2005, at 7:51:06
Your reaction to your therapist sounds a lot like mine for the first five years of my therapy. I'd love to talk to you more about it.
I'm growing a bit convinced that it wasn't so much that he saw me as attempting to sexually attack him that distresses me exactly. Because the idea is so frankly ludicrous that I assume he'll think about it and realize that. It's more that it means that he is "seeing" me as a w... No I can't say that. As a sexual being. He's not supposed to do that. It's wrong. It reminds me of the time when I got close to hitting puberty and Daddy made me quit sitting on his lap to watch TV. My therapist thinks that was a terrific fatherly thing for him to have done. But I'm left with the dirty feeling that it meant that for whatever brief moment of time, Daddy noticed me as something other than his little girl, and that still makes me feel gross.
I hope this time I'm able to stop feeling gross about it, rather than have it still lingering thirty or so years later.
Posted by Tamar on April 18, 2005, at 11:22:59
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » Tamar, posted by Dinah on April 18, 2005, at 10:12:05
> His entire reaction felt defensive rather than contemplative. Overall, I'm not sure he was thinking anything about me whatsoever other than an "Oh no you don't!"
Yeah but see, that’s what I can’t understand about his reaction. If he thought you were experiencing any kind of erotic transference, surely he should see it as an interesting development and something to be explored therapeutically. Why should he feel in any way threatened? Surely he knows you well enough to understand immediately that you’re not going to try to do anything inappropriate.
> And G*d only knows, the me I bring to therapy is not only pre-puberty, and refuses to grow up, but even if he's confused by the body in front of him... Well, it's plain to the point of ugly (I could be my mother thirty years ago. Seriously. The photos of her could be me if it weren't for the clothes.), overweight, and never makes any effort to appear attractive to him. Certainly no real threat to him, no matter how lusty he is. Of course I prefer to think he's not lusty at all, but rather a eunuch. But his reaction didn't feel like the reaction of a eunuch. A eunuch wouldn't feel defensive. Ewww. Ick.
I find it very difficult to imagine you as ‘plain to the point of ugly’. Are you underrating yourself? Being overweight doesn’t actually make women unattractive to men. If you are no threat to him, perhaps it’s because of your maternal transference and your moral outlook rather than because of your appearance, I’m guessing.
It sounds to me as if the two aspects of the issue have become intertwined and that’s what’s getting you feeling icked out. Perhaps he’s attributed a sexual component to your feelings and doesn’t entirely believe you when you say it’s not there, while, at the same time, he recognises you feel a desire to take care of him and needs to tell you that his feelings aren’t your responsibility.
Also, do you think it’s possible that you might be reacting to the sexual inference partly because you feel hurt by his rejection of your (nonsexual) desire to care for him?
Either way, I think he could have handled it better.
Posted by cricket on April 18, 2005, at 12:31:42
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » cricket, posted by Dinah on April 18, 2005, at 10:17:42
Thanks Dinah. I've love to talk to you about it too. Right now, I am just in such pain about this relationship (if you could even call it that) that half of the session I sit in silence praying for it to get better.
Also, like you it's not a sexual transference (although I guess I do find my T sexually attractive - but not when I am there with him) sex is the last thing I want from him. So it's maternal, paternal, gosh knows what.
I know that you have somehow seen it through to the other side even if you still do have your ups and downs.
Also, like you, I am terrified that my T will someday find his way to this site so I am very careful not to say anything that he would recognize and am therefore very limited in my postings here. I really don't know where all you babblers get the courage to actual print posts for their Ts.
Do you know how to work babble e-mail?
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 18, 2005, at 12:52:35
In reply to I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual, posted by Dinah on April 16, 2005, at 18:13:13
Dinah,
This sounds so CLEARLY about him. Like he is interpreting a lot into your statement and even adding onto it. I would be very interested in knowing what exactly he thinks you plan on doing. Does he think you have a plan to seduce him now? Does he think you seduced your father??? Perhaps you should start rubbing his neck at the end of sessions and see how he reacts!
Why would he sexualize this? It sounds as if he immediately sexualized it, as if it were a forgone conclusion. It sounds as if he has always believed your relationship with your father was somehow sexual. This came out of right field, right?
The phone tagging sounds wierd too, from what I know about your therapist. I think our Ts are similar in a lot of ways (although mine drives a Dodge!) and that includes boundaries. Your T doesn't seem the type to call back, right? That is not his usual MO, right? So that seems very out of the ordinary.
Wish I could offer you some words of wisdom though. But it really seems like this reaction is all about him and his issues and nothing to do with you.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 23:44:55
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on April 18, 2005, at 10:06:15
Certainly sounds like it was his anxiety/issue.
What's up with that these last few days? Are the "T stars" in a weird alignment?
gg
Posted by annierose on April 19, 2005, at 6:22:27
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 23:44:55
Maybe it's the Spring time weather ... a time for growth and change?!@#! or it could be too much pollen in the air clogging up the pathways to their thinking-side of their brains.
Posted by Dinah on April 19, 2005, at 10:44:31
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » gardenergirl, posted by annierose on April 19, 2005, at 6:22:27
Actually, I'm thinking about it. All together. There was the tenth anniversary and I brought him a gift for the first time. He might be tying that into the desire to take care of him.
It shouldn't be. I've been thinking about the tenth anniversary gift since at least the ninth anniversary, maybe the eighth.
And the symbolism of that gift was anything but sexual. Everything was mother/child or pup/nursing mother. And I don't know about anyone but me of course, but as a female I don't find the milky breast much of a turn on in a man.
You know, he's sort of funny as a therapist. Many times he's so careful before he speaks that I long for him to talk a bit more spontaneously. But other times he reacts very defensively and without thinking at all.
I imagine he'll have pulled himself together by next time. I can't imagine he won't have.
But I think it's going to take a very long time if ever for the fact that he put me and sex together for even the briefest time, and even in a negative sense. It is just so inappropriate given the nature of our relationship and my feelings for him. I don't think I'd have been much more upset if it had been my legal parents doing that, because he's my emotional parent every bit as much as they were, if not more.
Posted by Dinah on April 19, 2005, at 10:49:49
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 18, 2005, at 11:22:59
> Yeah but see, that’s what I can’t understand about his reaction. If he thought you were experiencing any kind of erotic transference, surely he should see it as an interesting development and something to be explored therapeutically.
I don't think he was thinking at all.
> Why should he feel in any way threatened? Surely he knows you well enough to understand immediately that you’re not going to try to do anything inappropriate.
>
If he doesn't by now, we don't have as good a therapeutic relationship as I had supposed.> I find it very difficult to imagine you as ‘plain to the point of ugly’. Are you underrating yourself? Being overweight doesn’t actually make women unattractive to men. If you are no threat to him, perhaps it’s because of your maternal transference and your moral outlook rather than because of your appearance, I’m guessing.
>
Well, I am. But that's not really important. The only part that really distresses me is that I look like my mother. Other than that, I'm not sure I dislike it.> It sounds to me as if the two aspects of the issue have become intertwined and that’s what’s getting you feeling icked out. Perhaps he’s attributed a sexual component to your feelings and doesn’t entirely believe you when you say it’s not there, while, at the same time, he recognises you feel a desire to take care of him and needs to tell you that his feelings aren’t your responsibility.
I think that's definitely true. I'm having trouble sorting one out from the other, and maybe he is too.
>
> Also, do you think it’s possible that you might be reacting to the sexual inference partly because you feel hurt by his rejection of your (nonsexual) desire to care for him?
>
Absolutely. I told him at the time, in a very calm and noncritical way, but more as a reflection, that it hurt to have my care rejected.> Either way, I think he could have handled it better.
>
>
Undoubtedly. I just hope it doesn't have lasting repercussions.
Posted by Dinah on April 19, 2005, at 10:50:22
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 18, 2005, at 11:22:59
Posted by Dinah on April 19, 2005, at 10:54:02
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. }} Dinah, posted by cricket on April 18, 2005, at 12:31:42
I can say from the other side that it does get better.
I bring my therapists posts from here all the time, but I don't want him reading here because I've said some pretty negative things about him. Probably nothing I haven't said to his face, but in a different way. And I'd lose a safe place to write about confusing therapy if he were to read here.
He's promised not to read, and I believe him.
You can turn "babblemail" on by reregistering. You go to register and you have the option of changing your registration. You leave everything else the same but switch the babblemail option on. You know if it's working if your name in the "Posted By" line of your post is underlined.
Posted by Dinah on April 19, 2005, at 10:55:41
In reply to Re: I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual, posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 18, 2005, at 12:52:35
I'm a bit interested myself in seeing how this goes. But even if it was a one day bout of insanity, it's brought an ugly element into the room. And the way I feel now, I'm not sure I can remove it.
Posted by Dinah on April 23, 2005, at 21:16:58
In reply to I told him and I'm sorry. Triggery I guess -sexual, posted by Dinah on April 16, 2005, at 18:13:13
Or unless I do. The darn diverticulitis is flaring up at irregular times and I can't go if it's really acting up.
I'm really nervous about it.
I think I tend towards not mentioning it. There's plenty else to talk about.
It's also entered my head that he's responding negatively because of that thing I said I'd never tell him but did anyway. Shame entering the picture.
Oh well. I guess I'll just go and try to avoid the topic. I'm not feeling up to a fight.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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