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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by alexandra_k on April 5, 2005, at 0:12:02
In reply to Re: wow Tofu, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 4, 2005, at 23:43:52
It might be thought of as hijacking...
ENOUGH ALREADY!!!
AAAARGH.
Things escalated and got way out of hand.
Crap
Crap
CrapI wish it were a rule that we didn't mention other sites here...
Posted by Tabitha on April 5, 2005, at 0:32:19
In reply to I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2005, at 19:53:21
Congratulations on making that connection, Larry. It's a long road to sort that stuff out and learn to separate the past from the present.
Posted by alexandra_k on April 5, 2005, at 0:39:16
In reply to I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2005, at 19:53:21
Yeah Larry. I get you. I hear you. I have a tendancy to do that too. My only clue is that my distress and upset is way out of proportion to the present situation - but in light of the past situation it is an understandable response.
Validation can be useful there to help the bad feelings come back into control.
But sometimes it is hard to come by.
I liked what Dinah said before.
About how everyones feelings can be validated and be acceptable all at the same time.
To validate someones perspective or take or feelings doesn't have to invalidate someone elses.There seem to be a lot of bad feelings all round at the moment.
:-(
I don't know what to say.
I am sorry for my above comment.
I spoke first and thought later.
I wish I hadn't posted it in hindsight.:-(
Posted by fallsfall on April 5, 2005, at 7:27:03
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by TofuEmmy on April 4, 2005, at 22:28:30
Emmy,
Does this situation remind you of some time in *your* past?
Curiously and with love,
Falls.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 5, 2005, at 8:27:59
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » Larry Hoover, posted by Tabitha on April 5, 2005, at 0:32:19
> Congratulations on making that connection, Larry. It's a long road to sort that stuff out and learn to separate the past from the present.
Thanks, Tab.
I want to follow on in that theme, because that's part of the anguish. I made the intellectual connection long ago, and of course, you need that, if you are ever to be able to try and bring your adult self into play when the little monster is having a tirade.
What I find most troublesome, just now anyway, is the sense that the adult me isn't even present during these episodes, at least not in the form of judgment. I don't know whose judgment I was using, but it didn't feel like mine at all. Nobody else would know that, of course, and I'm absolutely not trying to deflect any responsibility, but it feels like I'm left to pick up the mess that was made by someone else. In this case, it was (almost) said by someone else, and I actually have a great deal of difficulty recalling what was said....it's almost like *I* wasn't even there. Little beggar has full access to my vocabulary and style of rhetoric, though.
That upset little monster can and will do or say almost anything. And, if the triggering situation is one that might recur, or if dealing with the prior episode is itself triggering, I can get into compound episodes of the little beggar doing or saying things that are not part of my adult better judgment. Moreover, it's not until months later, sometimes, that I can even begin to figure it out (e.g. a multiple trigger situation).
I got lucky this time (or the therapy really is helping), in that I rather quickly made it to a place of pseudo-objectivity, where I could begin to take observations, gather impressions, and try and smooth things out a bit.
I *know* it is me who did/said these things, but I don't feel true ownership of it, either. Not when I'm left exhausted, mentally spinning, and thinking to myself "What the f*ck was that?".
Sort of an aside....I think there was some talk over here (maybe I saw it somewhere else) that some aspects of borderline and DID could be thought of as variants or extremes of PTSD reactions. Even though I never get into those realms, that would seem to make a lot of sense to me.
I appreciate all the support I'm getting. I guess you guys do understand.
Thanks,
Lar
Posted by TofuEmmy on April 5, 2005, at 8:35:50
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » TofuEmmy, posted by fallsfall on April 5, 2005, at 7:27:03
Yes Falls, I do know where it's coming from. Thank you for asking. :-)
But, I'm just getting used to my new villain costume, so I think I'll keep that story to myself.
(it's a little tight in the butt, but enhances my bust-line)e
Posted by sunny10 on April 5, 2005, at 8:46:54
In reply to I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2005, at 19:53:21
I am crying... I feel exactly the same way as you.
Posted by Dinah on April 5, 2005, at 9:15:13
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » Tabitha, posted by Larry Hoover on April 5, 2005, at 8:27:59
Lar, I haven't much time, but I wanted to say that I used to have the same problem - far more than now.
I just couldn't understand why I did the things I did.
You might want to read Alexandra's posts on the Writing Board about her theories. I found something very similar to be the answer for me. I'm not sure how much I understand myself what I mean, but I'll try to put my thoughts in order. No small feat.
Posted by henrietta on April 5, 2005, at 9:33:24
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » fallsfall, posted by TofuEmmy on April 5, 2005, at 8:35:50
Didn't they teach you in kindergarten that if you didn't have candy for everybody, you couldn't have any yourself? In my opinion, either everybody gets to wear a villain costume or nobody does. I vote for nobody getting to wear one, despite the bust enhancing possibilities. :]
(Or maybe we could just wear whichever half is more flattering to our individual body types.)
Posted by Dinah on April 5, 2005, at 9:48:40
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » fallsfall, posted by TofuEmmy on April 5, 2005, at 8:35:50
Well, you look fetching of course in that villainess costume.
But not terribly convincing, I fear.
Ahhh, Emmy, you sweetie. I'm sorry you're hurting.
Posted by antigua on April 5, 2005, at 10:36:10
In reply to I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2005, at 19:53:21
I know exactly how you feel. I'm usually a very mild mannered person, but in the midst of one of these episodes, I don't have a clue as to who I am. But you're right, it's the kid. I know that my reactions are over the top and it feels very frightening.
Hmm, thanks for the insight. I'm going to try to figure out what put me into that situation to begin with.
best,
antigua
Posted by sunny10 on April 5, 2005, at 11:53:19
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » Larry Hoover, posted by antigua on April 5, 2005, at 10:36:10
Posted by antigua on April 5, 2005, at 13:34:57
In reply to Re: knowing why doesn't help me much (nm) » antigua, posted by sunny10 on April 5, 2005, at 11:53:19
I'm sorry. I can only hope that if I know why then maybe I can find a way to stop it. I haven't done that yet and maybe I'm just dreaming...
best,
antigua
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 5, 2005, at 13:55:42
In reply to Re: knowing why doesn't help me much » sunny10, posted by antigua on April 5, 2005, at 13:34:57
> I'm sorry. I can only hope that if I know why then maybe I can find a way to stop it. I haven't done that yet and maybe I'm just dreaming...
> best,
> antiguaHere's my experience with this process....
For many years, all I knew was that something was wrong. Something was seriously wrong, but I didn't know what. When it was suggested to me what was wrong, I couldn't accept it, and dismissed the idea out of hand. But I never forgot the idea, and I began to see that it offered an explanation for what was wrong, after all. That was better than before, when I had no idea at all what was wrong.
The frustrating part of coming to understand the what part of the wrong part is that I could only do it in retrospect, looking back at something that had happened, sometimes months or years before. What use is that, really?
But it's part of the flow. You can start to pick up on the pattern, and suddenly, one day, you pick up the pattern while it's happening. Yes, in Real Time! That's quite a thrill, let me tell you. It's like thinking "Look! There's one of those, right there!"
What triggered me to post that first post in this thread was one of those things that I didn't recognize. I didn't see that one coming, and I got a bit blindsided by it. I guess my frustration was huge because of the old feeling of total helplessness that comes from being snuck up on.
But, I figured that episode out, after only a few hours of reflection. I feel a whole lot better (though much for tired) now.
It's a new skill, and it takes practise. Remember the first time you got a bicycle to stay up? I bet it wasn't the first time you tried. This is kind of like that.
IMHO, when you've figured out what is wrong, you're 70 or 80% of the way towards actively sorting it out. Most of the work is done. All you gotta do now is catch sight of one those little suprises when it sneaks up you....sneaky little buggers.
Lar
Posted by Tabitha on April 5, 2005, at 14:54:52
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » Tabitha, posted by Larry Hoover on April 5, 2005, at 8:27:59
I think they key to circumventing these episodes is probably connecting with the feelings that are driving the actions. Anger is probably the top level, but underneath it is usually hurt. My T used to tell me I would act instead of feeling. I barely knew what she was talking about, but she was right. Connecting with those feelings helps temper the compulsiveness of the actions.
Lately we're working with this critical parent/child/adult stuff. I've learned that most of my 'triggered' feelings come from my own internal critic. It was hard to admit that, because it felt to me that the criticism was coming from 'out there'. So I'd focus on my anger at others, when the real hurtful message was coming from inside. Or maybe it originated from outside, but it only hurt because my own critic picked it up and validated it.
So if the same thing is going on with you, maybe your inner critic is picking up the idea "your feelings don't matter. nobody cares about your feelings" and battering you with that. Then of course your little kid has a temper tantrum. Does that fit at all?
From there, the thing to do is talk back to that critic and comfort the child. In my sessions we're using a bat to whack the critic (no kidding). Once you learn to do some self-comfort, then the need for external validation lets up, and life gets easier.
Posted by Tamar on April 5, 2005, at 15:55:01
In reply to I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by Larry Hoover on April 4, 2005, at 19:53:21
When I read your post I really identified with it. I do the same kind of thing regularly. And even though I know intellectually most of the things that are likely to trigger me, it doesn't always prevent it happening. I'm sure it's part of the PTSD.
In my case it wasn't my mother, but other stuff. But the experience you describe sounds very familiar to me. I get that rhetoric thing too. And I absolutely hate losing control at any time, so losing control in response to a trigger can be terrifying. I absolutely cannot stand anything that sounds like personal criticism, and that's unfortunate because my job involves taking a certain amount of critique, which isn't supposed to be personal, but often feels personal!
I hope you found what you were looking for among the replies to your post. And I hope things will get easier for you.
Tamar
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on April 5, 2005, at 17:25:22
In reply to Tofu, posted by henrietta on April 5, 2005, at 9:33:24
> I vote for nobody getting to wear one, despite the bust enhancing possibilities. :]
*g*
Thanks for that!
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 5, 2005, at 17:58:54
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » Larry Hoover, posted by Tabitha on April 5, 2005, at 14:54:52
> I think they key to circumventing these episodes is probably connecting with the feelings that are driving the actions. Anger is probably the top level, but underneath it is usually hurt.
Yes, I long ago figured out that anger is a cloak I pull over hurt, embarassment, humiliation, whatever. Glad to have that validated.
> Lately we're working with this critical parent/child/adult stuff. I've learned that most of my 'triggered' feelings come from my own internal critic.
I appreciate the suggestion, but my mechanism must be different. It's like my inner child wants to grow up and be treated perfectly/equally/morally/ethically properly, all in an instant.....while I'm not so sure the little self-righteous bastaad is doing that in return. (I don't know where *I* go, when he's at the wheel. It's almost like lost time.) It's an act of defiance, a symbolic lifting of the oppression of my childhood. I never internalized the abuse. I was subdued by it. And remnants of his indignation burst up.
Or something like that.
Lar
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 5, 2005, at 19:01:41
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » Tabitha, posted by Larry Hoover on April 5, 2005, at 17:58:54
Larry, I think you described a dissociative episode- not one that amounts to DID, but which is on that spectrum- perhaps more towards the "ego state disorder" end. Having Complex PTSD myself, (although not knowing it until recently), I always tried to make very fair and thoughtful decisions, professionally, and remained unaware that I was often "triggered" into flashbacks by any sort of unfair or cruel behavior by others. I know much better, now! When similiar things happen to me, as happened to you, I *know* what is happening now, and know to let the younger, injured ego-states come into therapy and tell, as fully as possible, what they are feeling and suffering. The most helpful thing, I've found, is to let the feelings flow as freely as possible. It feels like that is where healing lies.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 5, 2005, at 21:03:55
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » Larry Hoover, posted by Pfinstegg on April 5, 2005, at 19:01:41
> Larry, I think you described a dissociative episode- not one that amounts to DID, but which is on that spectrum- perhaps more towards the "ego state disorder" end. Having Complex PTSD myself, (although not knowing it until recently), I always tried to make very fair and thoughtful decisions, professionally, and remained unaware that I was often "triggered" into flashbacks by any sort of unfair or cruel behavior by others. I know much better, now! When similiar things happen to me, as happened to you, I *know* what is happening now, and know to let the younger, injured ego-states come into therapy and tell, as fully as possible, what they are feeling and suffering. The most helpful thing, I've found, is to let the feelings flow as freely as possible. It feels like that is where healing lies.
Thank you, but I'm going to have to Hmmmm on this one. Hmmmm.....
Lar
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 5, 2005, at 21:52:17
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » Pfinstegg, posted by Larry Hoover on April 5, 2005, at 21:03:55
O.K.....Hmmm right back at you!
Posted by alexandra_k on April 6, 2005, at 1:21:24
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » Larry Hoover, posted by Pfinstegg on April 5, 2005, at 21:52:17
Posted by sunny10 on April 6, 2005, at 10:27:37
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » Larry Hoover, posted by Pfinstegg on April 5, 2005, at 21:52:17
guess we're all wondering what you consider the difference between "internalizing" and "subduing"... I think one involves the other to a large extent, Larry. And what you said sounds like me, too... that "little child wanting everything, but not helping out much" feels familiar, and so does "I don't know where "I" go during these outburst" (or words to that effect- my "exact-o-meter" seems to be shut down these days).
That's kinda what I meant when I said that "knowing what causes the triggers doesn't seem to help me" because I still react this way when I get blindsided like you do...
My brain's a bit mushy on overload, forgive me if I've mangled your thoughts...
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 6, 2005, at 10:39:25
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so....., posted by sunny10 on April 6, 2005, at 10:27:37
> guess we're all wondering what you consider the difference between "internalizing" and "subduing"... I think one involves the other to a large extent, Larry.
I knew what was happening to me was wrong. I did not agree. I knew it was unfair. I was simply overpowered. And I think my little boy has been waiting for a chance to speak, to be heard, to reject false attributions.
I've got an inner critic, no doubt about that. I've made mistakes, certainly, and it sometimes feels like those are being endlessly replayed in my head. I literally tell my inner critic to f*ck off. Occasionally, those words actually come out of my mouth. I remember once, in a mall, just before Christmas.....an outburst....the parting of the crowds....heh.
Those are distinct, in me, the inner critic and the sense of being suppressed. I knew, I guess, even way back then, what was my mom's sh*t and what was my sh*t. What happened to me simply wasn't fair. I guess I had boundaries of some sort.
Lar
Posted by antigua on April 6, 2005, at 11:12:21
In reply to Re: I don't know where else to post this, so..... » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on April 6, 2005, at 10:39:25
Sounds like you've found a good way to handle it. I'm still looking. Part of my problem is suppressed rage--I can get outwardly anger at regular things in life (husband, kids, whatever) and keep those in line (usually). The couple of times that I've been majorly triggered, like you said, I haven't figured it out until afterward, but blindsided is the right word to describe how I've felt.
My biggest problem is that I can't let the rage out. It's all internalized. So part of me is really stressed about when I do blow, will I just lose control entirely? That's my resistance, of course, but I don't get Brownie points for just knowing; someday, hopefully, it will come out and I can begin to heal. Maybe I can heal w/o it, but I really don't think so.
antigua
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