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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on March 17, 2005, at 10:04:21
I hadn't thought too much about Tuesday's session beforehand. I had appreciated his call (which was to apologize more than to check up on me as it turns out. He "admitted" with a smile he's not one of the "perfect therapists" like my friends' have who called.) I didn't feel particularly angry with him. I had forgotten the more insulting things he said. (If you really work hard on not encoding something when it happens, you can do it.) I even had some of my usual between session imagery which is sort of silly, and has to do with typical mother/child interactions. You know, visualizing me reaching up with my arms and having him pick me up, or visualizing me sitting at his side with my head on his knee. The normal stuff.
When I got there and asked how he was, he answered that he was stressed out from the family health problems I've alluded to. I expressed proper sympathy.
But when the session really started, I was floundering. This isn't the only time it's happened. I realized that I knew intellectually that this was therapy, he was my therapist, and he meant a lot to me. But simultaneously I had no idea why I went to therapy, what I said when I went there, what I was supposed to talk about, and who this person was.
It was a lesser version of the day long ago when I looked at my mother and she wasn't my mother any more. She was a screaming woman who looked ridiculous. Poof. No connection, no emotional recognition of her as my mother, and it never came back.
I tried different things to say, everything seeming so distant, then gave up and retreated to rational work mode, then tried again. And with not all that much time left in session I was honest and told him what was going on.
He thought it was because I was angry with him. I didn't feel angry. I thought I might have been worried about him and didn't want to distress him, but that didn't really ring true either because telling him I didn't really know who he was or why I was there was not guaranteed to be unalarming to him.
He was a trooper. His usual unflappable self. He answered my questions, apologized again if he had made me feel unsafe, and my favorite moment was when I asked who he was and he answered "I'm your therapist/mommy." with a gentle smile in his voice.
I wish I knew what happened, or why it happened. It's such an unsettling feeling. I've been anxious ever since.
Posted by Dinah on March 17, 2005, at 10:10:08
In reply to A form of dissociation I hate. I'm so weird., posted by Dinah on March 17, 2005, at 10:04:21
Actually it wasn't a lesser version. It was the exact same thing.
But it's happened to me two or three times with my therapist and it's never been permanent. I'm really hoping it's not permanent this time.
Posted by sunny10 on March 17, 2005, at 10:31:30
In reply to Re: A form of dissociation I hate. I'm so weird., posted by Dinah on March 17, 2005, at 10:10:08
your "refusal to encode" in order to disallow any memory of your anger is causing you to "bury the anger" instead of experiencing it, relaxing into it (accepting it), discharging it, and reacting to it.
If you continue to bury those feelings, you are in effect burying HIM from your idea of acceptable existence as part of your life- thus the disassociation.
Or, at least that's what I've been reading in "How One of You Can Bring the Two of You Together", by Susan Page.....
The author refers to ANY type of relationship, it doesn't have to be a marriage...
She talks quite a bit about anger and what happens to those of us who "stuff it" deep inside-whether it's because we can't deal with what we think the consequences of our anger might be- or whether we are too busy, but never get around to dealing with it, somehow.
End results are the same... either you explode (like me) or you disassociate (like you)... Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't say you are the disassociater of the two of us- I have "disowned" my own mother and refuse to think about her in emotional terms.
I guess I'm capable of doing that, too....
Obviously I am doing some "anger work" right now, so this colors how I took your post.
Hope I'm not out of line....
Posted by Susan47 on March 17, 2005, at 10:42:32
In reply to Re: A form of dissociation I hate. I'm so weird., posted by sunny10 on March 17, 2005, at 10:31:30
This "refusal to encode".. I've done it deliberately for years, knowing yet not knowing I was doing it but it was automatic, a filter that was subconscious but in the end I don't think it was helpful to do that for the last thirty years, it made me dysfunctional. Not totally, but to a great extent. For the last year I've been very aware of my ability to do this and I've tried not to, for the most part, but I know it still happens, and it's frustrating when it does. It's the type of thing that leaves my ex-T, I'm sure, shaking his head, wondering "Now where'd she get THAT impression?" ... it's a self-protective device that was necessary for survival I guess, but now it just gets in the way, for me.
Posted by Susan47 on March 17, 2005, at 12:12:17
In reply to A form of dissociation I hate. I'm so weird., posted by Dinah on March 17, 2005, at 10:04:21
I don't understand Dinah, why you said you're weird. The disocciation you experienced this visit is totally expected, isn't it? I mean, you really probably should be angry with him because he did say insulting things to you. But you're refusing to be angry with him because he might leave you then, so you've shut him out, you refuse to allow him to have any emotional relevance to you whatsoever ... so of course you wouldn't know why you were there, on one level, and know why you were on another. There's the two parts of you, fighting each other. You love him, he hurts you. Disconnect. You don't love him, he doesn't hurt you. But the love is real, and won't go away, and that part of you is real too, so that parts looking on going, okay, he's your therapist, you're there because he means a lot to you.. reminding you, you know, so you don't completely disconnect, you can't. It's the part that's going to release you, I think. Hmmm. Of course I'm probably all wrong again and mind-gesticulating endlessly, but it was fun. And it was probably all related to me anyway, what I've gone through. I better post and re-read this here.
Posted by Susan47 on March 17, 2005, at 12:23:10
In reply to Re: A form of dissociation I hate. I'm so weird. » Dinah, posted by Susan47 on March 17, 2005, at 12:12:17
You love him, he hurts you. Disconnect. You don't love him, he doesn't hurt you.
Not love, it's not that you don't love him, or like him or respect him or whatever, but it's more that you don't let yourself be open to what he's saying. But that other little voice in there says, he's a professional, hello, he knows something.. but I mean, he said some pretty unacceptable things. Your T must've said something really awful, I think.
Posted by 10derHeart on March 17, 2005, at 13:13:53
In reply to A form of dissociation I hate. I'm so weird., posted by Dinah on March 17, 2005, at 10:04:21
Dinah, I really think Susan may have come awfully close to the heart of this. The way she expressed so simply the "love>>hurt>>disconnect" sequence, etc. resonated so much. Because reading this thread, and your previous one just after he called, I kept thinking about that idea of "purposely forgetting" what he said during your "heated exchange." I guess I'm saying you minimized it more than enough to make me want to suggest bringing it right to the forefront...?
And if this is what's happening, of course you'd be still anxious. Especially since you've said it is *just* like with your mother. That image sounds scary and unsafe, so dissociating with your T. (therapist/mommy) and having it feel the same, would probably feel fairly awful. ((Dinah))
You used the words "rude" and "insulting" to describe whatever he said after you'd offered up your suggestion to him. Which, BTW, really jumped out at me as you'd also said "bared my soul," about that conversation. That's a strong statement, especially after he'd been gone on a trip, and then to be, in essence, rejected. Ouch. Yuk.
Like Susan, I'm thinking whatever things he said were really quite bad. And I'm wondering if there's deep disappointment in finding out the phone call was much more apology than "checking on you." If you were going to sort of place it along side his offer about your father's funeral, which I remember touched you, did he maybe "spoil" that somewhat?
I hope I have given you some ideas - or at least not made an *ss out of myself. Sorry the session went like that - your words about dissociating and not really recognizing *who* he was to you were powerful.
I'm really, really sure this will all be temporary.
Posted by 10derHeart on March 17, 2005, at 13:21:32
In reply to Re: A form of dissociation I hate. I'm so weird., posted by sunny10 on March 17, 2005, at 10:31:30
...about "forgetting you" in my post to Dinah. I left out a whole part....
I was going to say along with what Susan wrote, that what you wrote just fits right in there so beautifully, too. It really is all about the same things. Anger, burying, stuffing, hurt, resentment, planned forgetting, and so on, can have some intensely unpleasant results.
PS - Great to see you posting more again, too. I missed you :-)
Posted by sunny10 on March 17, 2005, at 14:12:25
In reply to Re: dissociation/oops, sorry Sunny... » sunny10, posted by 10derHeart on March 17, 2005, at 13:21:32
I didn't feel neglected... Susan47 and I have a habit of taking each other's ideas and expounding on them- she just said it better than I did, that's all.
I referenced a book- kind of a detached sort of answer, I guess- she made it real!
Thanks for your kind words. I tend to stay away when I am not thinking positively and can't find ways to express myself to others supportively.
Maybe I came back a little too soon- I was too abrupt in my phrasing wasn't I? : p
And I'm sorry about that, Dinah-sweetie... I meant only the best.
Posted by Susan47 on March 17, 2005, at 16:09:39
In reply to Re: no worries, (Dinah, please read, too) » 10derHeart, posted by sunny10 on March 17, 2005, at 14:12:25
Just from my little corner of the board I want to state this to you Sunny10; I know you pretty well, I think, one side of you in any case, and your phrasing was your mind working, that's all, and it wasn't abrupt at all, that's how minds usually work, and if you're an honest person, which I believe you to be, you'll just spit it out. Which I think is what you did, and it was bloody brilliant, darling.
Posted by Dinah on March 17, 2005, at 20:16:25
In reply to Re: no worries, (Dinah, please read, too) » 10derHeart, posted by sunny10 on March 17, 2005, at 14:12:25
No one was overly abrupt. :)
What he said wasn't *that* awful. I don't remember what it was, but it isn't in him to be terribly awful. It was probably no worse than what biofeedback guy said as a matter of course. It did feel sort of bad to make an offering to him and have it not only declined, but declined without grace. But he said that he now realizes that, and he has apologized and I accepted.
But his theory is what everyone else seems to be, that I'm angry. That just doesn't seem to ring any bells for me.
I do know that I've been worried about him both awake and asleep (in my dreams) since the last session, so I'm trying to figure out if my concern for him as a person made me feel disconnected from him.
I also know I felt panicky all session, and kept glancing at the door wondering if I should make a run for it.
I guess I *could* have been angry with him even though I couldn't feel it. But if I was, we did the whole apology/reparation thing already.
It's a scary thing, though, to not "recognize" someone or someplace that you know well. Emotionally, I mean. Although it was for the best with my mother.
Posted by sunny10 on March 18, 2005, at 9:22:19
In reply to Re: no worries, (Dinah, please read, too), posted by Dinah on March 17, 2005, at 20:16:25
I read another thread where you just added some info about a good psychology book and you seem to be suggesting that you have found that you see yourself in "dependecy"- just not in the passive sense.
Could it possibly be just that you only allow yourself to be dependent on your T with passive expectations (and no one else) about your needs being met and that you were just surprised when he treated you like the non-passive person you present to the rest of the world? Could it be that he realized that he slipped up by not being the person that he knows you need him to be right now, thus the apology?
It may be that he is feeling that you are healing and treated you that way; then realized that maybe YOU don't realize that you may not be as dependent on him as much as you used to be (?).
I get that a lot, actually, so I may be totally projecting here... But I have been told often that I "only THINK I need help"- that I am actually fine and can manage on my own. That only my fears hold me back and that if I can learn to control fear, I can control all of the rest of my reactions/feelings.
Of course, my fears are what make me not believe them, so it is a slightly amusing cycle that I create in therapy. (that is, when I'm detached enough to look at myself and laugh)
I don't know if I've made any sense, here, my thoughts are going in circles, but they all hinge on the fact that you seem to be thinking of him more as his own person and less as a T that you need to depend on. And since he is also "mommy", this is slightly alarming.
Most of the people that I know who were raised by loving, caring parents had to learn to "leave the nest" when they went off to college- or to go straight to the working world. They tell me that they had some anxiety, some feelings of sadness about leaving their parents behind, but their parents helped them with those feelings and helped them start their own lives.
I'm not sure about you, but I never had that. I was sent to boarding school when I didn't want to go. I was angry and resentful with my parents, and they were angry and resentful with me(which is why they had sent me away to begin with- they assumed I was into drugs and alcohol which I have never been. Hmm... maybe that why they freak ME out so much...Something else to think about). So I have never felt that normal, healthy letting go. I think this is why I have such a dependent personality and a fear of abandonment.
It never ceases to amaze me how, when we try to help each other see things from a different angle, we almost always think of things that we ourselves need to examine on another level for our own growth!
Maybe some of us are truly are ready to "leave the nest" but are feelings those same anxious and feelings of sadness to leave loved ones behind...
An interesting prospect to ponder... If it's not true for you- maybe it's true for me because it came up in my mind when I thought about your situation from my perspective...
Sorry for the complex post. It's obviously not a genius piece of writing, but I couldn't think of other ways to say what was milling around in my mind...
Posted by Susan47 on March 18, 2005, at 15:40:41
In reply to Re: Dinah, posted by sunny10 on March 18, 2005, at 9:22:19
Your mind works beautifully, too, sunny, and everything you've said has an emotive response with me because I come from a similar background. My father loved/hated me because his mother didn't want him, never loved him, was cruel to him, etc etc ad nauseum plus he had a real war-torn childhood, he and my mother both, and well you can just imagine how Daddy related to me. I was always, always the enemy, from birth to now and probably to his grave. Even though he may even know on an intellectual level what he's doing, he doesn't understand the emotional impact and bereavement he's caused me, all the pain and dysfunctional life I've lived, if he did he'd want to die himself, and no one really WANTS that, goes Looking for it, so he can't ever see it but I have a horrible, terrible feeling if he's sane when he dies and he has time the reality will strike him and it will be horrible, absolutely horrible if that happens. So in all honesty, I hope it never happens, I hope he never understands emotionally, with his heart, what he did, because it would really make his life sad, and right now I think he's pretty happy with his life, he's feeling okay about it, and that's just so important. But that's totally off track, I guess I just needed a safe to spill. You see, I separated, I AM separating from C, my old therapist, and I'm absolutely panicked, frightened, a little girl, but I look in the mirror and I see this beautiful woman I've always been, and I'm relaxing into her, flaws and all. And I'm so grateful, I'm so grateful and so torn with tears that no words can ever express how much I really feel.
Posted by Susan47 on March 18, 2005, at 15:43:05
In reply to Re: Dinah, posted by Susan47 on March 18, 2005, at 15:40:41
of course but I was writing kind of TO Sunny, if you know what I mean. Hmm. I have a ton, a ton, really in the hospital its supposed to take ten minutes to do this, but it's my homework and it feels like a ton of work because I'm so anxious about it. I can't get started, I feel incredibly anxious.
Posted by LG04 on March 18, 2005, at 20:53:51
In reply to Re: no worries, (Dinah, please read, too), posted by Dinah on March 17, 2005, at 20:16:25
Hi Dinah,
My theory of what happened is similar to Sunny's. I am starting to recognize this with me and my therapist and have had those same feelings of suddenly having no idea who she is.I'll explain what it is for me and you can see if it rings any bells for you.
I have an "idealization transference" with my therapist, which i am working to break. But meanwhile, I need her to be ideal (i understand why but that's a whole other subject). Which, among other things, means not making any mistakes. Not being quite human.
When she makes a mistake, or isn't doing what I want/expect her to do, i get furious. She is supposed to be ideal! how dare her mess up? This keeps me from having to see her as human. Humans mess up. Perfect mommys don't. If I'm furious, it maintains my need to see her as perfect. if i understood that she wasn't perfect, if i could accept her in all her human-ness, then i might be mad, or annoyed, or frustrated, or perhaps even forgiving. the fury allows me to continue to see her as ideal. i am furious, she apologizes, and she is back to being ideal again. i've avoided seeing her as human.
i know that you didn't get furious or even that mad. but the common denominator is that it terrifies me to think she is an ordinary human being. i use fury to cover it up. (or, i might think that i am totally worthless. either way, it keeps her ideal). perhaps you use dissociation in that "weird" way b/c it scares you so much to think of him as an ordinary human and not the ideal mommy.
because the few times that i've actually allowed myself to see her as human, as ordinary, i felt the exact same way. i had this feeling that i was supposed to know her, but i didn't. i didn't know whose office i was in, or who i was talking to. it's the most bizarre feeling in the world, especially since i have a very close relationship with her.
and when i feel this way, i also feel total panic and that i am desperate to run. because only a perfect mommy is safe and will protect me. anything less than that leaves me feeling incredibly vulnerable and scared to death. an ideal mommy won't hurt me or make mistakes. less than an ideal mommy? totally unpredictable. therefore, terrifying.
so maybe it's not that you are angry at him but just the fact that he made a mistake (wasn't as gentle as he could have been) and apologized was enough for you to see him momentarily as a regular person who messes up sometimes. and right now you only want to see him as an ideal mommy. especially since you were having those thoughts beforehand where he picks you up and so forth. you were in that mode and then he showed himself as human. that would be enough of a reason to dissociate.
so that's just an idea, i don't know if it fits for you or not. but i thought i'd throw it out there since the same thing has happened to me. i've been reading a lot about idealization transference and it's given me a lot of understanding into what's going on with me and why.
i hope you are able to figure it out. i know it's a scary feeling. by the way i've always been able to put her back into the role of ideal mommy after those weird dissocations, so maybe that will comfort you that you will be able to do it also.
LG04
Posted by Dinah on March 18, 2005, at 22:27:31
In reply to Re: no worries, (Dinah, please read, too) » Dinah, posted by LG04 on March 18, 2005, at 20:53:51
He said that while he was *glad* I had forgotten what he said on one level, on another level he worried that "forgetting" like that helped me maintain an idealized image of him (and others I might do that with). He said that it was also important for me to remember that however out of character it seemed to be for him to have said it, that there obviously *was* the capacity in him, however small, to say things like that.
I reminded him that I hadn't forgotten that he had said *something*, just not the specifics. Nor do I think I idealize him all that much. There is a constant running commentary in my head that is the very opposite of idealizing. And it seeps into even the part of me that adores him, keeping a nice healthy skepticism and mild distrust alive.
You should *hear* my opinion of him. lol.
It's more that in spite of all his flaws, he gives me something I need. He generates a feeling of calm that I suck up as greedily as a pup at a teat.
He's got other fine qualities as well. He's absolutely brilliant at relationship repair. But that's partially because he's got a bit of a temper that requires that he keep repairing relationships. lol. Nevertheless he's taught me a lot about that.
This is the end of the thread.
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