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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Rigby on December 22, 2004, at 2:15:57
In reply to Re: I'm very close to going back to old T » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on December 21, 2004, at 23:23:29
Hi Crushed,
What stands out to me is that you went to this new therapist to not be there permanently but to have a place to go to perhaps process your first therapist. And you now say she hasn't been helping you with that. If your main goal is to get through feelings about your first therapist I would ask yourself, as a "consumer" why you aren't making that a priority?
It strikes me as perhaps a theme because your feelings of transference with your first therapist were unbearable. But you never seemed to cover them in therapy--it just didn't come up, your therapist didn't handle it or claimed you dissociated--but in the end, what was desperately important to you wasn't being worked on. Why not?
I guess I feel that old therapist or new, life is precious, time is ticking and these are really big "building" years for you (relationship, family, career.) I would think you'd want to maximize your time in whoever's office you choose to help you overcome some obstacles that have stood in the way of you achieving dreams. I just don't want to see you spend these important years focused on the *process* of therapy and on the therapist herself vs. the enormous benefits that could come of what a good analyst could offer you.
Hope this makes some sense--it's late and I'm rambling a bit.
Rigby
> yeah ideally taht would make sense but she really hasn't been helping me with it. we just haven't been talking about it, and when we do, it doesn't go anywhere. i'm serious. i'm not just saying this.
>
> also, she's on vacation till jan. 3.
>
> but i'll consider what you say very carefully. i'll try not to act rashly
Posted by Dinah on December 22, 2004, at 7:06:04
In reply to Re: I'm very close to going back to old T » gardenergirl, posted by crushedout on December 22, 2004, at 0:05:11
First of all, I think Rigby is very wise. That *should* be the main focus of your therapy. To learn to get what you want in the real world.
And of course, I remember you weren't very happy struggling with your feelings with your therapist for so long.
But gut wise, I have to say that I understand and would probably do the same thing. Fortunately right now therapy is a useful supportive adjunct to my life, not the center of it. It helps me go out and deal with the other stuff as best I can. But if my therapeutic relationship were ever in jeopardy, I'd do whatever it took at whatever cost to myself and possibly at whatever cost to my life to keep it intact. I would do things that were very harmful to myself to keep it intact. Even if it were already essentially gone in every way that matters, I'd still do everything in my power to cling to the vestiges.
I'm not saying it's right. It's not. I'm not saying I'm not overly attached to my therapist. I am. There are a heck of a lot of good and understandable reasons why I'm so attached that have to do with my root difficulties. I probably should try to work on those, and lessen the attachment.
But I won't.
I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here. I'm not sure if your situation is as sick and twisted as mine. :) (I smile because on the surface, mine isn't. It appears to be very helpful and stabilizing to me. It's only if termination were in sight that it would become a monster destructive force in my personal landscape.) But I'm saying I *do* understand if you feel you need to go back, for whatever reason - justifiable intellectually or not.
Posted by crushedout on December 22, 2004, at 11:44:49
In reply to Re: I'm very close to going back to old T » crushedout, posted by Dinah on December 22, 2004, at 7:06:04
Thank you, Dinah. That means a lot to me, to have that side understood. You've always been good at doing that. And it needs to be validated. Even if through having that side understood, I end up deciding not to go back. I feel like it's easier to make the decision *not* to go back if I feel like it's a valid option, if that makes any sense.Wow, I just reread that paragraph and it was extremely convoluted.
Posted by pinkeye on December 22, 2004, at 15:50:40
In reply to I'm very close to going back to old T, posted by crushedout on December 21, 2004, at 21:33:08
why don't you let things settle down for about 3 months and just continue with the way things are? I can see how tempting it must be to go back. I do agree that your old T was probably good for you in many ways, but seeing the way you suffered - was hard for all of us to see. We don't want you to keep doing that and would like if you can give yourself a chance to come out of it.
Posted by crushedout on December 22, 2004, at 20:29:38
In reply to A Few Thoughts » crushedout, posted by Rigby on December 22, 2004, at 2:15:57
Hi Rigby,
I *think* I get what you're saying. But I'm not sure you understand my situation completely. I *originally* went to this therapist to figure out whether to leave the old T. Then I decided to have her as a therapist, at least for a trial period. And I got really depressed, and not about the old T but just generally, so that had to be our priority. It's very hard to make good use of an hour a week. I'm doing the best that I can.
It sounds like you're saying that I'm not doing therapy right, and that I'm wasting my life or something. I've been severely depressed and doing my best to deal with that, and dealing with a ton of loss in my life.
I *am* frustrated that the transference is not being dealt with and maybe it is partially my fault, but I need practical advice about how to address that. I don't need to get even more depressed about how I'm going to die soon and my life is passing me by while I screw this up.
Posted by littleone on December 22, 2004, at 21:05:04
In reply to Re: A Few Thoughts » Rigby, posted by crushedout on December 22, 2004, at 20:29:38
Hi crushed,
I could be thinking of someone else here, but have you had a couple of T's over the last few years who you've really fallen for? If you have, then there seems to be some sort of pattern there and it is probably the pattern that needs to be understood and addressed rather than the transference feelings towards the individual T.
I understand why you would want to go back to your previous T. When you have that special bond with someone, it can feel like you've lost part of yourself when they/you leave.
However, it sounds like you're still a little confused within yourself (maybe a bit unconsciously) as to why exactly you should be going back. In one message you said something about wanting that special closeness and bond reinstated, but in another message, you say you want to resolve the transference.
I know that these two things don't have to be exclusive to each other, but in this case, I can't see how your old T can meet both these needs similtaneously.
You mentioned that your current T was a temporary in between T and it really doesn't sound like you've bonded strongly (although I can't recall how long you've been with him/her).
I was going to suggest that you try going to a new T. But maybe try to shake things up a bit. If say your old T was a woman, try seeing a man. Or try seeing someone with a different personality to your old T.
I guess the only other thing I wanted to remind you of was that you did have a strong bond with your old T, but if I recall correctly, she seemed over invested in the relationship. Which invariably means that she had certain needs being met in the relationship. And when she's meeting her needs (either consciously or unconsciously), she's not doing the best thing in your interests.
But like I said earlier, I could be way off base and have you confused with someone else.
Take care.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 22, 2004, at 22:08:42
In reply to Re: A Few Thoughts - turned out kinda long » crushedout, posted by littleone on December 22, 2004, at 21:05:04
Maybe thinking about what do you want to happen? And maybe reflection on what the reply you would most want to see on this thread to be...what would it say? I get the feeling and maybe I am wrong that youre not happy with the replies you have gotten so far...What would be the reply you want to see? That may be the answer for you
Posted by crushedout on December 22, 2004, at 22:19:43
In reply to A strange thought perhaps but, posted by Fallen4MyT on December 22, 2004, at 22:08:42
That's not completely true. For example, I liked Dinah's reply, as I made pretty clear in my response to it. She validated my feelings without telling me what to do.I'm not looking for answers. There are no easy answers to this problem. I'm just trying to get helpful feedback and support. That can come in many forms. It's hard to say exactly what I'm looking for because it's not that specific.
I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just looking for help and some kinds of help are not helpful.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 22, 2004, at 22:45:03
In reply to Re: A strange thought perhaps but » Fallen4MyT, posted by crushedout on December 22, 2004, at 22:19:43
But Crushed all we can do is try and you do not like what we think is supportive. You say you like 1 persons support. I think you know my situation with my T so I feel I am VERY neutral in this more so than really anyone who has posted to you. So yes support comes in many forms and helpful is WHAT??? that was the point of my last post was for you to maybe ask yourself why most of the helpful posts I have read in here...to you seem to be.. to you... NOT supportive or helpful?? I am not being difficult either I just know how you feel to some extent being one to cross lines and all myself and the fence sitting is not good for you I can read and hear the stress in all your replies. So I can only support you how I would want to be supported and I would ask myself WHAT IS IT I AM NOT GETTING THAT I WANT TO HEAR IN HERE...AND maybe post it to yourself or for all of us to see what you need or want? I really FEEL for your PAIN and frustration I REALLY DO...but I feel that youre biting a lot of hands that are typing and trying to help. I CARE . I do not care what you do I CARE that you do DO something to stop this agony for yourself. I am not saying its easy man of anyone in here I would know that best. I hope you try what I said it just MIGHT help you find what you need and want but maybe arent sure yourself on.
> That's not completely true. For example, I liked Dinah's reply, as I made pretty clear in my response to it. She validated my feelings without telling me what to do.
>
> I'm not looking for answers. There are no easy answers to this problem. I'm just trying to get helpful feedback and support. That can come in many forms. It's hard to say exactly what I'm looking for because it's not that specific.
>
> I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just looking for help and some kinds of help are not helpful.
Posted by crushedout on December 22, 2004, at 22:54:28
In reply to Re: A strange thought perhaps but » crushedout, posted by Fallen4MyT on December 22, 2004, at 22:45:03
who is "we," fallen? i don't like being told to flip a coin. i disagreed with some of what you said. i'm not going to pretend to agree with things i don't agree with, ok? please just let it drop. i know you mean well, but this is not helpful to me.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 22, 2004, at 22:57:22
In reply to Re: A strange thought perhaps but » Fallen4MyT, posted by crushedout on December 22, 2004, at 22:54:28
OK no problem good luck on whatever you decide I just won't post to you. The coin flip was one of many ideas but anyhow I really hope you find peace in whatever you do
HUGS
> who is "we," fallen? i don't like being told to flip a coin. i disagreed with some of what you said. i'm not going to pretend to agree with things i don't agree with, ok? please just let it drop. i know you mean well, but this is not helpful to me.
Posted by crushedout on December 22, 2004, at 23:28:39
In reply to Re: A strange thought perhaps but » crushedout, posted by Fallen4MyT on December 22, 2004, at 22:57:22
Well, although this thread has turned out to be rather trying and frustrating to me (for whatever reasons), I wanted to let everyone know that I haven't acted on my urge to see her, and am trying to sit with my feelings of ambivalence and be patient, see where they take me. I don't want to act when things are still so unclear. I think you were right, falls, that I need to try talking this through with the new T first. And if that doesn't work, perhaps I'll look for the strength to find another T (ugh).
No way am I getting a male T, though. That just feels way wrong to me (no offense to men, I just don't want one as a T and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work for me).
In general, I'm feeling a bit better, perhaps a little on the manic side. But I'm not miserably depressed. Just wanted to share this.
Posted by Rigby on December 22, 2004, at 23:56:55
In reply to Re: A strange thought perhaps but » crushedout, posted by Fallen4MyT on December 22, 2004, at 22:45:03
Like Fallen4 said, I think you need to be clear that you want a certain type of support--otherwise, when you post you'll get various perspectives and opinions.
As far as my feelings are concerned, I spent time thinking about your situation and really trying to come up with the best response that I could for you. To have you respond by saying that I don't get it and that I think you're doing therapy wrong and wasting your life is not only a misinterpration of my message but it's disrespectful of me and the time and thought I put into your situation.
Good luck.
> But Crushed all we can do is try and you do not like what we think is supportive. You say you like 1 persons support. I think you know my situation with my T so I feel I am VERY neutral in this more so than really anyone who has posted to you. So yes support comes in many forms and helpful is WHAT??? that was the point of my last post was for you to maybe ask yourself why most of the helpful posts I have read in here...to you seem to be.. to you... NOT supportive or helpful?? I am not being difficult either I just know how you feel to some extent being one to cross lines and all myself and the fence sitting is not good for you I can read and hear the stress in all your replies. So I can only support you how I would want to be supported and I would ask myself WHAT IS IT I AM NOT GETTING THAT I WANT TO HEAR IN HERE...AND maybe post it to yourself or for all of us to see what you need or want? I really FEEL for your PAIN and frustration I REALLY DO...but I feel that youre biting a lot of hands that are typing and trying to help. I CARE . I do not care what you do I CARE that you do DO something to stop this agony for yourself. I am not saying its easy man of anyone in here I would know that best. I hope you try what I said it just MIGHT help you find what you need and want but maybe arent sure yourself on.
>
>
> > That's not completely true. For example, I liked Dinah's reply, as I made pretty clear in my response to it. She validated my feelings without telling me what to do.
> >
> > I'm not looking for answers. There are no easy answers to this problem. I'm just trying to get helpful feedback and support. That can come in many forms. It's hard to say exactly what I'm looking for because it's not that specific.
> >
> > I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just looking for help and some kinds of help are not helpful.
>
>
Posted by crushedout on December 23, 2004, at 0:15:32
In reply to I'm With Fallen On This One, posted by Rigby on December 22, 2004, at 23:56:55
I'm sorry you feel I was disrespectful, Rigby. I was just telling you how I read your post. *I* felt disrespected, but maybe I misinterpreted. That can happen.
As I said to Fallen, I don't know exactly what sorts of responses I want when I post. I know I don't want my feelings to be minimized, I don't want to be demoralized, and I don't want to be condescended to. But I assume all that goes without saying. I don't expect everyone to always give me exactly what I want, but I also will disagree with things that I don't agree with, and I may have feelings in response to a post (even if the poster put a lot of thought into it). It seems to me that's the nature of human interaction.
And, please, Rigby, don't do me any more favors. *Especially* if I'm not allowed to have a response to them. Those are favors I don't need.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 23, 2004, at 0:34:12
In reply to I'm With Fallen On This One, posted by Rigby on December 22, 2004, at 23:56:55
Rigby I wasn't going to say anything on how I FEEL but now that you said it I too feel very hurt by all the time I spent trying to help and how much of what I said was also misinterprated in a disrespectful way. I have NO problem with someone saying this isn't what they want or need but I have never had anyone in all the time I have been on Babble be so disrespectful of my time and that of other poster's time and feelings. FEELING PUT DOWN is an understatement. A sinple thank you OR THANK YOU BUT ....would have been fine. I do not care to argue and thats what most of this thread has been. I am done with this and do wish Crushed well.
> Like Fallen4 said, I think you need to be clear that you want a certain type of support--otherwise, when you post you'll get various perspectives and opinions.
>
> As far as my feelings are concerned, I spent time thinking about your situation and really trying to come up with the best response that I could for you. To have you respond by saying that I don't get it and that I think you're doing therapy wrong and wasting your life is not only a misinterpration of my message but it's disrespectful of me and the time and thought I put into your situation.
>
> Good luck.
>
> > But Crushed all we can do is try and you do not like what we think is supportive. You say you like 1 persons support. I think you know my situation with my T so I feel I am VERY neutral in this more so than really anyone who has posted to you. So yes support comes in many forms and helpful is WHAT??? that was the point of my last post was for you to maybe ask yourself why most of the helpful posts I have read in here...to you seem to be.. to you... NOT supportive or helpful?? I am not being difficult either I just know how you feel to some extent being one to cross lines and all myself and the fence sitting is not good for you I can read and hear the stress in all your replies. So I can only support you how I would want to be supported and I would ask myself WHAT IS IT I AM NOT GETTING THAT I WANT TO HEAR IN HERE...AND maybe post it to yourself or for all of us to see what you need or want? I really FEEL for your PAIN and frustration I REALLY DO...but I feel that youre biting a lot of hands that are typing and trying to help. I CARE . I do not care what you do I CARE that you do DO something to stop this agony for yourself. I am not saying its easy man of anyone in here I would know that best. I hope you try what I said it just MIGHT help you find what you need and want but maybe arent sure yourself on.
> >
> >
> > > That's not completely true. For example, I liked Dinah's reply, as I made pretty clear in my response to it. She validated my feelings without telling me what to do.
> > >
> > > I'm not looking for answers. There are no easy answers to this problem. I'm just trying to get helpful feedback and support. That can come in many forms. It's hard to say exactly what I'm looking for because it's not that specific.
> > >
> > > I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just looking for help and some kinds of help are not helpful.
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by gardenergirl on December 23, 2004, at 6:57:05
In reply to Re: I'm With Fallen On This One » Rigby, posted by Fallen4MyT on December 23, 2004, at 0:34:12
Crushed,
I was thinking that perhaps this thread is kind of representative itself of how you might be feeling? It seems like with this conflict, there is not a clear difference between options. At any rate, it's clear you are feeling really awful. I wish there were an easy answer.Somebody I respect a great deal said an interesting thing to me the other day. She said (regarding a different conflict) that sometimes all alternatives are bad. The task, then, is to choose the one that hurts the least. And only you can do that, unfortunately. I wish I could help more.
And I think I can relate about how you posted mostly negative things about your former T, and that only presents one side of it. I tend to complain about the negatives about my husband to my T, and I have to remember to make an effort to say some good things, too. That way I make sure he realizes that my husband really is a good man and not a complete clod. ;)
I do think that if your depression is getting worse with the new T, that is telling. Regardless of whether you are working on the transference or not, alleviating depression is a goal, right?
At any rate, if I could, I would come over and just sit quietly with you in support.
Take care,
gg
Posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 7:24:18
In reply to (((crushed))), posted by gardenergirl on December 23, 2004, at 6:57:05
At the risk of alienating just about everyone, could I suggest a bit of a step back and some deep breaths?
I see that everyone has been putting a lot of effort into their responses and trying really hard to help Crushed with her pain.
I also understand that losing an important connection to a loved one can *feel* like a life threatening event. And bring out the natural responses to life threatening events. Mother lioness and her cub, that sort of thing.
I don't think there's anything personal going on here. And everyone's reactions are perfectly understandable. But if everyone takes a step back and sees how each other's reactions are also perfectly understandable, perhaps we can keep some very valuable connections here on the board strong and maintain important sources of support for everyone involved.
Posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 7:26:04
In reply to Re: I'm very close to going back to old T » Dinah, posted by crushedout on December 22, 2004, at 11:44:49
You're welcome, Crushed. I understand perfectly. And that wasn't convoluted at all.
Posted by crushedout on December 23, 2004, at 13:15:17
In reply to (((crushed))), posted by gardenergirl on December 23, 2004, at 6:57:05
Hi gg,I don't know *what's* going on in this thread but I do know I feel pretty bad about it. I wish I hadn't started it.
Thank you so much for your understanding. And you are SOOOO sweet. I would love to have you here next to me for a while. Just the thought of it gives me comfort.
xox,
crushedout
Posted by crushedout on December 23, 2004, at 13:17:11
In reply to Deep breaths everyone?, posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 7:24:18
Dinah,Thank you so much for this post. We obviously needed a mediator, and you make excellent points, without taking sides. I appreciate it. And I agree with everything you said.
crushed
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 23, 2004, at 13:50:29
In reply to Deep breaths everyone?, posted by Dinah on December 23, 2004, at 7:24:18
> could I suggest a bit of a step back and some deep breaths?
>
> I see that everyone has been putting a lot of effort into their responses and trying really hard to help Crushed with her pain.
>
> everyone's reactions are perfectly understandable. But if everyone takes a step back and sees how each other's reactions are also perfectly understandable, perhaps we can keep some very valuable connections here on the board strong and maintain important sources of support for everyone involved.
>
> DinahThose are all really good ideas. Could I also encourage the use of I-statements? For example, instead of:
> I liked Dinah's reply, as I made pretty clear in my response to it. She validated my feelings without telling me what to do.
>
> I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just looking for help and some kinds of help are not helpful.How about:
> I liked Dinah's reply, as I made pretty clear in my response to it. She validated my feelings and I didn't feel told what to do.
>
> I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just looking for help and some kinds of help I don't find helpful.--
And instead of:
> I really FEEL for your PAIN and frustration I REALLY DO...but I feel that youre biting a lot of hands that are typing and trying to help.
How about:
> I really FEEL for your PAIN and frustration I REALLY DO...but I feel that others that are typing and trying to help feel frustrated, too.
--
And instead of:
> i don't like being told to flip a coin.
How about:
> i don't think flipping a coin would help.
--
And instead of:
> OK no problem good luck on whatever you decide I just won't post to you.
How about:
> OK no problem good luck on whatever you decide, I just feel frustrated.
--
And instead of:
> To have you respond by saying that I don't get it and that I think you're doing therapy wrong and wasting your life is not only a misinterpration of my message but it's disrespectful of me and the time and thought I put into your situation.
How about:
> To have you respond by saying that I don't get it and that I think you're doing therapy wrong and wasting your life made me feel I'm doing posting wrong and wasting the time and thought I put into your situation.
--
And instead of:
> please, Rigby, don't do me any more favors. *Especially* if I'm not allowed to have a response to them. Those are favors I don't need.
How about, well, just skipping that? Or, as Fallen later suggested:
> thanks, Rigby, for trying to help.
--
And instead of:
> I too feel very hurt by all the time I spent trying to help and how much of what I said was also misinterprated in a disrespectful way. I have NO problem with someone saying this isn't what they want or need but I have never had anyone in all the time I have been on Babble be so disrespectful of my time and that of other poster's time and feelings. FEELING PUT DOWN is an understatement.
How about:
> I too feel very hurt. I spent a lot of time trying to help. I have NO problem with someone saying this isn't what they want or need but FEELING PUT DOWN is an understatement.
--
Taking a step back also means time to preview what you've typed:
> Babble is a place ... to learn about my own methods of interaction (what works, what doesn't work, what I should stop / start / do more of.)
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041027/msgs/411257.html
> I have found that babble gives me the opportunity to practice responding rather than reacting to others. Because we aren’t face to face and we write rather than speak we have the opportunity to really think about our posts before hitting ‘submit’.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041027/msgs/413401.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by crushedout on December 23, 2004, at 13:58:34
In reply to Re: Deep breaths (and I-statements), posted by Dr. Bob on December 23, 2004, at 13:50:29
Wow, Dr. Bob, that was a really good lesson in I-statements. Thanks for helping.
Posted by alexandra_k on December 23, 2004, at 18:11:52
In reply to Re: Deep breaths (and I-statements) » Dr. Bob, posted by crushedout on December 23, 2004, at 13:58:34
Now I am just being a sh*t, and this really is a joke
but instead of
> Thanks for helping.
How about
I feel helped.
Heh heh. Have a good holiday crushed :-)
PS(I'm not trying to pick on you, nor Dr B either)
Posted by crushedout on December 23, 2004, at 22:28:49
In reply to Re: Deep breaths (and I-statements), posted by alexandra_k on December 23, 2004, at 18:11:52
thanks for the injection of humor, alexandra. :)
Posted by alexandra_k on December 24, 2004, at 1:13:55
In reply to lol » alexandra_k, posted by crushedout on December 23, 2004, at 22:28:49
Thanks for finding it funny
or for at least saying so :-)
I am in a bit of a funny mood...
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