![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 63. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on August 21, 2004, at 10:34:18
My therapist and I were talking about it. He seems to think that being genuine is a worthwhile goal in itself. I'm beginning to lose faith that that is true.
The real me has a fair number of borderline tendencies, if I want to use a shorthand to describe myself. My therapist agrees. Not that I meet the criteria for diagnosis, but that I have a lot of tendencies. An intense fear of abandonment, high reactivity with slow return to baseline, a tendency to act out, with SI being a prime example.
I discovered almost thirty years ago that my real self wasn't going to get me what I wanted. I created Dinah Who Is As She Should Be. No one really cared that I was fake, anymore than people care when I emotionally divorce them. I act fine, and that's what matters to others. So the fake Dinah gets along just fine. Does what she should do, acts towards others as she should act. And if the fake Dinah has a limited range of emotions, that limits pain as well as joy.
So what is the benefit in being genuine? If other people like me better fake and superficial, and it hurts less being fake and superficial, does being genuine serve any purpose whatsoever? Does the real me have any value at all?
Posted by Susan47 on August 21, 2004, at 11:04:45
In reply to What is the point of being genuine?, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2004, at 10:34:18
Oh yes Dinah, the real you is the one who will make *your* life full!
Does that make any sense at all?
Posted by Aphrodite on August 21, 2004, at 12:24:16
In reply to What is the point of being genuine?, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2004, at 10:34:18
I too have created a facade called Aphrodite who interfaces very well with the world. I am well-liked from a distance, and this fake me has circumvented a lot of pain. Unfortunately, it has also cost me any deep, personal connections, but I try to suppress that reality and ignore it.
I think that to be genuine, you have to have found your place and your people. I have not found that, so being genuine is not safe. The facade is self-protective. However, I have not lost all hope that someday I will be in the right environment to actually breathe comfortably and expose my true self, the good and the bad, and to be able to accept the same from others.
The key is kindred spirits. There are some here on Babble, don't you think?
Posted by lucy stone on August 21, 2004, at 12:31:08
In reply to Re: What is the point of being genuine? » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on August 21, 2004, at 12:24:16
I have what I call the "Other Lucy" who interacts with the world when it is too scary for the real Lucy to do so. I can only be genuine with a very small group of people, primarily my husband, my children, and my T. I like being genuine, though, since I can relax and just live without all the effort of keeping the other Lucy going. I have very few feelings when the other Lucy is active, either good or bad feelings. After I am done with her I often get very depressed, sort of rebound from her. I would like to not need her anymore and just be the authentic Lucy all the time. I'm working toward that as one of my goals of therapy. Dinah, are you the authentic you here? If you are I like you very much.
Posted by vwoolf on August 21, 2004, at 13:56:06
In reply to Re: What is the point of being genuine?, posted by lucy stone on August 21, 2004, at 12:31:08
I've pretended that the other face is the real one for so long, that I had almost begun to believe it was all there was. It has been an amazingly effective front - I've convinced huge audiences at international meetings, managed schools and counselling organisations, had a successful marriage - but it was all just a front to hide the wounded me.
My problem now is that, much as I would wish to be able to keep up the front, it just doesn't work anymore. Kaput. Gone. Even in the most intimate places, like my marriage, I wonder who my husband thinks he has married. Definitely not the genuine me. And that is sore. It is a very lonely place.
Posted by tabitha on August 21, 2004, at 16:05:47
In reply to What is the point of being genuine?, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2004, at 10:34:18
OK, so 'Real Dinah' is easily overwhelmed by her feelings, and acts them out in disturbing ways, and has trouble functioning as an adult. 'Fake Dinah' shows no feeling at all, just behaves as a proper adult and suppresses her feelings totally. Then 'Genuine Dinah' must be somewhere in the middle, right? Able to function and behave appropriately, yet also able to feel and express feelings. So I'll bet that while some people might prefer Fake Dinah to Real Dinah, they'd really much prefer Genuine Dinah over Fake Dinah.
I have trouble with the whole concept of middle ground myself.
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 21, 2004, at 18:26:56
In reply to Re: What is the point of being genuine?, posted by tabitha on August 21, 2004, at 16:05:47
Hi Dinah... I think you were saying that the *real* Dinah would be ill- i.e. be easily hurt, fearful of abandonment, apt to go from feeling too much to not feeling anything for other people, or to SI to cope with the storm of feelings which gets aroused in you. But isn't that just the part that you, and all of us, are trying to heal? You're describing over-sensitivity and over-reactivity, followed by *shutting down*, if the stimuli are too much. In neurological terms, you're describing a sympathetic nervous system which gets too easily aroused, which can, if it goes on too long, cause your parasympathetic nervous system to kick in: that results in the *nothingless* feeling- the *escape when there is no escape*. To people around us, there probably doesn't seem to be too much going on in the way of stimulation, but, to us, relatively small things in our environments can start our brains going into these storms of feelings, followed, sometimes, by complete absences of feeling.
Our brains are not wired correctly, because of various combinations of childhood neglect, lack of comfort and love, physical or sexual abuse. We all present one face to the world, but we have to face a much more painful inner world.
I think that is where, thankfully, therapy comes in. Having the repeated experience of being accepted-not just some of us, but all of us, including our rage, loneliness, self-hate, feelings of being *fake*, etc. really changes us inside. Not just that we come to accept those parts of ourselves better, but that we have what the therapists call a "transmuting internalization". I think that means that we take into our brains - our thoughts and feelings, conscious and unconscious- a feeling of our therapists' caring and presence. That way, we begin to automatically like and comfort ourselves better, and to feel more authentic and truly *ourselves* in our interactions with others.
I have been reading that researchers are beginning to be able to SHOW changes in the MRIs of brains with people with PTSD and/or borderline PD as they are treated with psychotherapy. They get more connections- more NEURONS ACTUALLY GROW IN ADULTS! between the emotional centers in the hippocampus and amygdala and the right pre-frontal cortex, which is the highest non-conscious center for regulation of emotions. It's the best news in the world that psychotherapy can actually make physical changes for the better in an adult brain! The MRIs they used are much more sensitive than the standard ones, and are just research tools at present. But it looks as though the time will come when people with psychiatric disorders will get them diagnosed by MRI, which can also document the improvement which occurs with therapy and medication. That should help- prove a challenge- for insurance!
Posted by gardenergirl on August 21, 2004, at 18:31:01
In reply to The real Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on August 21, 2004, at 18:26:56
Posted by AuntieMel on August 21, 2004, at 20:04:51
In reply to What is the point of being genuine?, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2004, at 10:34:18
Dinah
I do think that being genuine is a goal worthy on it's own. It's a part of accepting and liking yourself. But genuine doesn't mean following your impulses all the time - being grumpy with sales clerks, etc.
Everyone, sick or well, has a public persona (fake) that helps them get along with others. It works professionally and in social situations.
But that persona is usually a version the "genuine" person, just always on her very best party manners. And that can be hard to maintain. The smile sticks. Something has to give. So she has around her a few trusted people that she loves. Those are allowed to know the girl that has been wounded and hurts.
So, yes, it is important to be genuine. Which also means showing the good side of you, the caring sensitive part. The Dinah that we know here.
Mel
Posted by Susan47 on August 21, 2004, at 20:23:35
In reply to The real Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on August 21, 2004, at 18:26:56
Pfinstegg that was beautiful, thank you.
Posted by Susan47 on August 21, 2004, at 20:35:59
In reply to The real Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on August 21, 2004, at 18:26:56
Pfinstegg, Thank you thank you oh yes that feels so true!!!
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 21, 2004, at 21:16:17
In reply to The real Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on August 21, 2004, at 18:26:56
Thanks so much, gg and Susan! I am just starting to read about these new things, and they really are encouraging for us all. I'm going to a conference in NY in October- usually, it's a psychoanalytic conference devoted to clinical material, but this year, for the first time, it's going to be entirely about the new findings in neuroscience- and how they apply to psychotherapy. I hope I'll learn new things I can post about here.
Posted by Susan47 on August 21, 2004, at 22:36:40
In reply to Re: The real Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on August 21, 2004, at 21:16:17
Pfinstegg, I hope you do too because for me, your post was one of the most hopeful, helpful things I've seen here. Bring us more, please!!!
Posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 0:00:33
In reply to The real Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on August 21, 2004, at 18:26:56
I'm going to have to think a bit more about it. At the moment, I can't see any benefit to my existence even though I've been working for a long time in therapy to release the real me. I'm just not quite grasping *why* right now. I think I remember something about everything getting expressed as anxiety attacks, but I think I'm on medications for anxiety anyway.
I'm going to have to think about it.
I think that on this board you mainly see the Dinah Who Is As She Should Be, guided to a greater or lesser extent depending on the post by the Dinah Who Is As She Is. So I'm not sure what those of you who like Dinah are responding to. The Dinah Who Is As She Should Be can pass as real, I think.
I'm thinking of going back into hiding. I'm thinking that being non-genuine may be a better way to live. My husband sure likes the Dinah Who Is as She Should Be a lot more. In fact, he'd like me to be a bit more "Should Be". My husband's big on shoulds.
I told my therapist that I feel like I'm standing on a ledge deciding whether to jump, even though I'm posing no threat to my physical body. And that's all that matters, right? At least it always seemed that way. And I'm not sure it isn't true. I still haven't figured out what earthly good I am to anyone including myself. I *think* my therapist doesn't particularly like the Should Be Dinah, and prefers the Dinah Who Is as She Is. But even he couldn't come up with a better reason than just that it was valuable to be genuine. That doesn't seem good enough a reason.
If the fake me can fulfill all my functions, and better than the real me - what is my purpose in being genuine?
Posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 0:15:41
In reply to Re: What is the point of being genuine?, posted by tabitha on August 21, 2004, at 16:05:47
I have trouble with middle ground too. Like Linehan's wise mind.
And I wouldn't exactly say Fake Dinah suppresses all feelings or doesn't express any. It's just the relatively limited range of emotions that helped get me labelled schizotypal. Dinah Who Is As She Should Be does righteous indignation superbly. :) And definitely has a better sense of humor than Dinah Who Is As She Is.
Long before I could name my emotions, I used colors to describe them. I did this whole color wheel using a full range of crayola colors, with differing shades and intensities. Then I assigned a name to describe the color. The first few years in therapy, I'd consult the chart to say "I'm feeling brick red... ok that's resentful." Anyway, Fake Dinah has a full range of emotions, but in the bright glittery range. Excitement, amusement, irritation, indignation. Real Dinah has a full range of emotions in the warmer range - and darn it I still can't describe those well. But lavender rather than blue, or crimson rather than fire truck red.
Ohhhh, I'm not making any sense even to myself.
What you said made perfect sense, and when I read it I couldn't figure out why on earth I wouldn't want that for myself. I'm going to have to think about it more.
Posted by AuntieMel on August 22, 2004, at 0:18:54
In reply to Re: The real Dinah, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 0:00:33
To me, the value of being genuine is that you get to relax. It's a lot of work keeping up a facade.
And, even though it is needed at times, when I do it I feel dishonest.
I think sometimes I get a glimpse of the real Dinah here. I like her better, too.
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 22, 2004, at 1:00:54
In reply to Re: The real Dinah, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 0:00:33
I know this sounds like a too-simple answer- but I think the reason to allow yourself to be genuine is that you'll feel happier. But when you feel really down on yourself, it doesn't seem like there's any worthwhile person inside you that you can be. The people who love you know that there is, but maybe you can't know it yourself right now.
I think, from what you've posted, that you've got more things stressing you than you have for quite a while. Harry has had an additional loved and loving year that he wasn't supposed to have, which I feel sure you gave him with your love and care, but now he isn't doing so well. And it sounds as though you have been forced by your father's illness to have more interactions with him and your mother than you may think is right for you.
To return to a neurophysiological way of thinking about it: more stress= HPA axis overactivity=cortisol overproduction=less new neurons and less serotonin, nor-epinephrine and dopamine in the your hippocampus= getting depressed. I know I make these irritating excursions into the neurophysiology of it all; if you hate it, just ignore it! Having definitely been severely depressed myself in the past, I know that I don't think normally then- I start to dislike, disapprove and hate everything about myself. I seem like a totally bleak landscape to myself, although I go on acting as though everything is "fine". You don't sound as depressed as I know I've been, but you do seem to be thinking more negatively about yourself than you usually do. It's so worthwhile to take every step you think might be beneficial right now, while it's not too severe. I don't know for sure what helps the most- but, maybe more visits to your T per week, less time with the parents, more undemanding cuddles with your husband and son, any self-soothing, self-nurturing thing that helps- I'm not sure what your most comforting things are.(for me it's warm baths and moisturizing every inch). I think the hardest thing is to do good things for oneself when one doesn't feel at all valuable.
This is a non-sequitur, but in some of the reading I've been doing getting ready for the conference I mentioned, I read how people who hoard have specific abnormalities on their brain scans. It's considered a very tough thing to have, not so common, but very difficult to overcome. I never knew before that it was so specifically brain-based; I thought it had a more purely psychological cause. It must be awfully hard to go into their house and see all that stuff piled up. It would feel to me like they had stopped living, and were just existing- sort of dead, really. I hope it doesn't upset you that I say that.
Let's be sure we keep a dialogue going. I never came out and said so directly, but the support I got from here when I was extremely depressed a year and a half ago really did help me. Now that things are better, i still think about that, and am grateful.
Posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 8:26:07
In reply to Re: What is the point of being genuine? » tabitha, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 0:15:41
It doesn't even make any sense to me. I was very tired. I think the Provigil that has upped my productivity to almost acceptable levels has also disturbed my sleep pattern.
Posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 8:30:42
In reply to Re: The real Dinah » Dinah, posted by AuntieMel on August 22, 2004, at 0:18:54
Thanks, Mel. :) That is a good thing to hear. It's not a message I get much at home, which really does make me wonder why I bother trying to stay genuine.
And I'm not altogether sure my therapist just isn't particularly crazy about my more productive false self because my surface self doesn't see much use in a therapist and tends to be rather rude to him. Those first five years of therapy were unpleasant at times (for him too). :)
Posted by gardenergirl on August 22, 2004, at 8:44:41
In reply to Re: The real Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on August 21, 2004, at 21:16:17
Yes, please do share when you get back. I'm envious. Sounds like a great conference!
gg
Posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 8:51:27
In reply to Re: The real Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on August 22, 2004, at 1:00:54
No, of course I don't hate it! I find it fascinating. I didn't realize that about hoarding. My therapist has said it's a form of OCD, but I can't feel any anxiety on the part of my mother, and it's hard to recognize OCD in her.
My therapist agrees with you about the depression part. And there's probably a fair amount of truth to it. And a lot of anxiety at what the future will bring. He thinks I shouldn't make any decisions right now, because he suspects any plans that are so *suddenly* different. I've been trying to pull away from him, go once instead of twice a week, because it's easier to let go and drift away from caring and from being genuine if I don't see him. But it is an idea that is consuming me. It seems so perfect. It seems like a way of killing everything in me that is real, but without the ethical considerations of causing harm to others through my actions. Because I don't see that many other than my therapist would care. My husband likes my false front better and makes that clear. I've never been particularly genuine with my son, because it's my philosophical belief that I shouldn't burden my son with genuineness (smile - I guess I wish my parents had put on more of a front for me. They were only tooooo real with me.) I emotionally divorced my mother long ago. My father is a giant two year old and always has been. He doesn't need me to be genuine with him, he needs me to take care of him. (You should have seen how jealous he was of my son, and how he still makes little digs at him. It makes my early childhood much easier to understand.) I haven't been genuine for years with my few remaining friends. Social situations are too stressful for me to be genuine. I was watching a video of my wedding shower yesterday (an event I have absolutely no recollection of despite the video), and I was struck with how well I did. I know for sure there wasn't a shred of genuineness in me, because that sort of situation would bring out the fakest me there is, yet I interacted far better than I really interact. So, other than my therapist, I can't think of anyone who would be affected by my action. So it seems like such a lovely solution. And it probably isn't permanent. It wasn't the first time. In a few years, when it doesn't hurt to be real, maybe I could try again.
I'm sorry to go on so. And very repetitively at that. And I know your well thought out post that I'm replying to is a perfect answer to this one as well. So please don't feel like you need to reply to this repeat post. :) I know I'm stuck in a thought loop, and I realize how very annoying that can be.
Posted by gardenergirl on August 22, 2004, at 9:00:02
In reply to Re: The real Dinah » AuntieMel, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 8:30:42
Dinah,
When I read your first post in this thread, I have to admit, I was stumped. If I were your T and you asked me that in that way, I would either babble on stupidly, or just say, "that's a good question...let's explore it." (I like the latter response better, but I can't say I can always come up with it.)Perhaps part of my being stumped is that I am depressed right now, too. It's getting better, though, finally. It's been a long summer.
I think I'm in a similar place, as far as getting ready to take a risky leap and not knowing if it is worth it. Even though the defended and "should" me is behind me and comfortable in that I know her so well, the genuine me that is out in the unknown is starting to look more attractive. There is such a sense of relief I get when in sessions I lose defenses and the real me comes out and my T accepts her and loves her too. It's really a profound feeling, one that is hard to put into words. It's almost a like a relief at recognition. I imagine that if I were able to feel that way all the time, or at least much more often, then I would be much less depressed.
I think the "shoulds" are a terrible thing. That is one of the things about Horney that really resonated with me...the tyranny of the shoulds. It just sets you up to be defended. If you think of a battle metaphor, well-defended has a sense of security about it, but it takes a lot of effort and maintenance to keep it going. Imagine if you had no enemies and no worries about defense? Peace, comfort, freedom to do as you please and be as you please.
Any way, my turning point or cliff right now is related to deciding to give up the defended roles I play (mainly maladaptive dependent versus adaptive interdependent) and take on more independence and confidence in myself. I think this is related to allowing the genuine me to be. My T brought up this conflict in me as a hallmark of termination, actually. That felt a bit scary, but not as scary as it usually does. So there really is an appeal there.
I'm so rambling, because I'm sleep deprived, too. Perhaps you can explore with your T how it feels to be on that cliff and thinking about jumping. Would Dinah fly free? I think so, but it takes a great deal of faith to make that leap. (Kind of like in the first Matrix movie, :)
Take care. I hope this is of some help. I obviously need to think more on it, too. I have to wonder, though, if my most recent depression has served a good purpose, helping me to get to this point? Perhaps there is a bit of depression that goes along with grieving the loss of the defended me that has to be felt before I can be ready to fly. Hmmm.
Take care, Dinah. You are a dear.
gg
Posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 9:34:38
In reply to Re: The real Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on August 22, 2004, at 9:00:02
It sounds encouraging for you, gg. And I'm glad. :) I hope you are able to fly free with a genuineness that feels comfortable and natural to you.
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 22, 2004, at 9:41:46
In reply to Re: The real Dinah » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 8:51:27
Not annoying at all, Dinah. I was stuck for so long in such a severe depression, with the same painful, horribly negative thoughts just reverberating around and around. My T pointed out to me just last week that anyone who was as depressed as I was is at very high risk for a relapse; even though he's an analyst, and doesn't prescribe any anti-depressants, he wants me to continue taking low doses of Lexapro and Wellbutrin, and to consult my pdoc if the depression starts to get worse-right away. This is in spite of all the intensive work we are doing in therapy, which seems to me like it is really healing the old wounds.
Your father sounds like mine: he was absolutely awful to my son- taunting him, finding every possible fault in him- but, at bottom, I think he was very jealous, too. I never allowed my son to be alone with him. So far, he's doing fine. (my son, I mean). My father died ten years ago without ever growing or changing one bit. He was smart, too- but not psychologically smart at all. It makes me feel so sad to think of all the missed opportunities- but it does take two if things are going to change in a healthy direction.
Posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 10:24:20
In reply to Re: The real Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on August 22, 2004, at 9:41:46
I can really understand your posts and your struggle, Dinah. I never was eloquent enough to be able to put my selves into the language you've expressed; you did that really well in the lst couple of days and don't beat yourself up for going back and forth and being insecure about what's best. I hope you work it out without hiding your real self, because I think if you go with the fake Dinah, although the world might be able to handle her and she gets what she wants (which is what, by the way, I don't think you ever did say. In your first post you said the fake Dinah gets what she wants. Which is what?) the real Dinah will suffer even more. She needs to come out and be accepted, not just by her T, but real people who're self-sufficient enough that they don't need Dinah to be all fake.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.