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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by mair on August 19, 2004, at 7:27:44
In reply to The Therapeutic Relationship, posted by Susan47 on August 18, 2004, at 22:23:23
It is a strange relationship. I can't get myself around the concept that Ts may care about their patients other than in a professional context, with a huge dose of detachment. I cling to the view that while they are important to us, we are not important to them; certainly not on any personal level.
What does your therapist say to you when you talk about your relationship?
Mair
Posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 8:57:04
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship » Susan47, posted by mair on August 19, 2004, at 7:27:44
I no longer have a therapist, the conundrum of the relationship was too upsetting for me.
May I ask a quick question... Why do you "cling" to the view.... etc.? I think I did that too in therapy, so I wouldn't become overly schizoid, because it *is* a very difficult relationship. Actually I found it horrible and never want to repeat the experience. My advice is never go to a therapist you're attracted to on a deeper level. Ouch.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 19, 2004, at 9:11:07
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship, posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 8:57:04
Susan,
Did you ever try a female therapist? If so, did you have the same problem?
Posted by Dinah on August 19, 2004, at 10:48:49
In reply to The Therapeutic Relationship, posted by Susan47 on August 18, 2004, at 22:23:23
I see it as being more along the lines of teacher/pupil. You'll never forget the third grade teacher who spent time before class talking to you about berry picking. But chances are she'll forget you. It doesn't mean she didn't care about you.
I called a therapist I had when I was a young teen/preteen. It had been over 25 years, but he was happy to hear from me. No, he didn't remember a whole lot about me. But what he did remember was correct. He remembered my parents better than he remembered me (wink). And he seemed to be happy enough to hear from me. And I didn't even *like* that therapist, was as much a clam as a young teen can be (and you know how clam-like that can be).
I think I've gotten past this issue. Sometimes I wonder what my therapist really thinks of me, or get upset if I think he's only pretending to like me when he really thinks I'm an *ss. But the restraints of the relationship don't bother me because frankly I don't want more from him than therapy. So if he doesn't want to do more than give therapy to me, we're in perfect agreement.
And aren't all relationships in our life bound by some sort of restraints? I care about (at least some of) the people at my office. I'll cry at their funerals, I enjoy talking to them. But we don't hang out at home. I usually don't know about their new cars. But I appreciate the part of them that I do have.
Even my most intimate relationship, the one with my husband, is bound by restraints. He's my best friend, yet I don't tell him the same things I tell my therapist. And frankly, I don't want him to tell me the things he might tell his therapist. Especially if they're about me. Very intimate relationships like husband/wife and even more mother/child do best, IMHO, with a fair amount of discretion.
So my therapist is my therapist. He cares about me after nine years of therapy. But he cares about me in the way you care about a client, not a wife or daughter. I care about him after nine years of therapy. I want the best for him. I'm sorry when he's having troubles. But I care about him in a different way than I care about my husband or my son or even my parents. Because even the best therapist/mommy isn't like a real mother. He doesn't yell at me like he yells at his real kids, I'm sure. Well, maybe a little, but not nearly as much.
And what's the problem? I know that if I run out of money, I wouldn't see him anymore. But I'm paying for his time, not his caring. I can't pay him to care for me. That is either there or it isn't. If I could no longer afford him, that would mean I wouldn't be able to book time with him, it wouldn't mean he'd quit caring.
I think the boundaries of a therapeutic relationship are troublesome in two ways. One is that on the surface they don't resemble any other relationship. But that isn't as true as it sounds. Most people in our lives are people we only see in certain situations. Work people at work, hobby people at hobbies, etc. Which leads to the second reason a boundary can be troublesome: if you want more (from a therapeutic, work, or hobby relationship) than the other person wishes or can give. That's not unique to therapy. There was a lady at church who liked me just fine at church, but she had a busy life and to her I was a church friend. And maybe I wanted to be a hanging out sort of friend. It hurt. But there's nothing wrong with church friends. I just wanted more.
So yes, I would never go into therapy with someone I where wanted more than a therapeutic relationship. And if those feelings of wanting more developed later on, it would hurt. But all relationships hurt when one person wants more than the other. The only question is whether you can accept what is offered or if you can't. If you can't you can't, and it's no shame. If you can, then maybe you can learn something from the wanting but not having.
Because it happens all the time. You send more emails than you get. The lady at church wants to keep your relationship at church. You will most likely never meet the people you've come to care about on Babble. If you can learn to fully enjoy what you can get from each person (including husbands and parents and children) and acknowledge what you'd like to have, I think it leads to a richer life.
Posted by pegasus on August 19, 2004, at 11:52:34
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship, posted by Dinah on August 19, 2004, at 10:48:49
Well said, Dinah! I love your perspective on this. Thanks for writing it all out so eloquently. I find your take on the issue very helpful.
pegasus
Posted by bobby on August 19, 2004, at 12:12:38
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship, posted by Dinah on August 19, 2004, at 10:48:49
Sorry to but in on this thread but you offered such great advice that I just had to pat you on the back. The pure honesty reminds me of Sar--although you are a star in your own right. Hope you are well.
always lurking but not much to say,
Bobby
Posted by mair on August 19, 2004, at 12:55:09
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship, posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 8:57:04
Susan - I agree with most of what Dinah said, but I'm not sure where I fit into her equation. I have trouble with defining/understanding/accepting the limits of the therapeutic relationship but I don't think it's because I want something more from my T. I certainly like her very much, and care for her sometimes more than I like, but I'm not tortured by the image of us as social friends, or soulmates, and I don't wish she was my mother or lover or any number of other kinds of relationships. She's stated before that had we not met as T and patient, she could see us as social friends very easily. I think I could too, but it usually doesn't bother me that we can't have that kind of friendship.
She and I have talked about this a fair amount, because I think and I think she thinks also that the view I "cling" to, of being unimportant, is an impediment to therapeutic progress. It's easiest to say that I am as guarded as I can be because I don't trust her not to hurt me. That's probably a part of it although we've also discussed whether I don't want to be important to her because I don't want to worry about whether I'll hurt her or disappoint her. There, is afterall, the practical consideration that the occasionally suicidal me doesn't want to worry about how my demise will affect her.
So I can't easily answer your question except to say that it's something she and I repeatedly discuss. Nonetheless, I get lots of benefits from the relationship, even when I'm so unwilling/incapable of opening myself up to her, and even when the relationship seems so unsettling to me.
What happened with your last T to turn you off so much?
Mair
Posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 13:37:04
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 19, 2004, at 9:11:07
Miss Honey, I did see a female therapist, and I've also seen male therapists I wasn't attracted to. This one was definitely different for me. I knew I was in a precarious place with this one, emotionally, and perhaps I should've been strong enough to look somewhere else a lot sooner, but the fact might be that I needed what he offered to get through what I had to do at this time. Also, it's so difficult to start something (no matter how dysfunctional it may seem to the outside world), quit midstream, and go back with someone new. I invested so *much* of myself in this therapy. I just can't do that again.
I don't know what this has to do with my therapy, but I have this recurring dream, almost like a nightmare.. it must be classic, you know. It's a big big old house, with some new parts, and I live in the new parts. And they're really beautiful. But there's like a third floor, and it's full of dust and old furniture.. everything's been left the way it last was used; dirty coffee cups etc. Books are everywhere. I've tried going up there to clean it out, but there's something supernatural there that keeps coming and scares me away.
This dream has been ongoing since I got to a certain stage in my therapy. I don't know what it means. THere's another one too but it's kind of embarrassing. BUt troubling nonetheless. I wish therapy was better financed by insurance companies....
Posted by Dinah on August 19, 2004, at 13:50:23
In reply to Hi Dinah! » Dinah, posted by bobby on August 19, 2004, at 12:12:38
I wish I were doing a bit better. How are you doing? I hope your relative absence means you're doing well.
Posted by Dinah on August 19, 2004, at 14:06:06
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship » Susan47, posted by mair on August 19, 2004, at 12:55:09
Mair, I've never gotten the impression you wanted any more from your therapist than you get either. Do you actually find your relationship painful? Or do you just have trouble accepting that she cares for you within the therapeutic relationship?
I must admit that the latter has been quite a struggle for me. When I write things like my "best moments" above, it seems clear that the caring is genuine, albeit limited to the therapeutic relationship. But when I write things like the "worst moments" above - that characterized our early relationship, I also understand the trust issues I had and still sometimes have with him.
All that being said, I highly value the therapeutic relationship for what it represents in itself - not as a substitute for other relationships. I always say I'd kill myself without my therapist, but maybe what I mean is I'd kill myself without a good therapeutic relationship - how is that for a forward step in progress. And I know how very hard it is to find a good match, or as in my case, to work hard at making a so-so match into a good one through years of hard work. I guess I've learned a lot of relationship skills along the way, but I'm not sure how generally applicable they are.
What was I saying? Oh yes. Is it really the limitations of the therapeutic relationship that bother you or is it your general feelings that spring from your overall way of feeling that you aren't someone that others would care for.
Because I have to say that I hope you know those are distorted thoughts. My experience with you is that everyone who mentions your name thinks you're pretty terrific and well worth caring for. I know, I know. That probably doesn't help much. But I was just wondering if your discomfort with your therapist came more from trust than with boundaries, and your trust problems may have more to do with your feelings about yourself than anything she has or hasn't done.
Or I may be way off base.
Posted by Dinah on August 19, 2004, at 14:06:36
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship, posted by Dinah on August 19, 2004, at 14:06:06
Posted by Dinah on August 19, 2004, at 14:07:10
In reply to Above for Mair ^^^^^ (nm) » Dinah, posted by Dinah on August 19, 2004, at 14:06:36
Posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 14:34:41
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship » Susan47, posted by mair on August 19, 2004, at 12:55:09
Mair,
More later; for now I have to say that Dinah's perspective is lovely and I've seen it from her view as well; right now she's coming from a very grounded place. But when we're in therapy we're usually not grounded. I'm glad I'm not needing therapy as much as I seemed to be when I was having it!!!!!
Posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 14:35:58
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship, posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 14:34:41
Posted by vwoolf on August 19, 2004, at 14:37:32
In reply to The Therapeutic Relationship, posted by Susan47 on August 18, 2004, at 22:23:23
It is a few weeks since I last wrote. I have been feeling very vulnerable on this site after exposing some quite deep feelings and finding the very nature of what I was saying thrown into discussion by posters who were questioning the foundations of the the therapy process. I can see that there are debates of a theoretical nature on this board that live side by side with personal accounts about the therapy process, and that sometimes they are uncomfortable neighbours. But I have felt wounded and insecure, particularly since I was rapped over the knuckles by Dr Bob for my knee jerk reaction to a post I felt touched a personal cord.
Anyway, I have decided to try and get over my hurt. I value the exchange on this board too much.
You may remember I recently decided to stay in therapy with my female T, in spite of my very negative feelings towards her. Over the last few weeks things have changed so much, and I now have great feelings of tenderness towards her. She seems so gentle and kind, and really caring.
A good example of why came a few days ago. Recently I received some news that has made my future financial position seem very fragile. I told her about it, and expressed my fear that next year I would not be able to afford therapy. She assured me that we would find a way to keep going, that I would never be turned away from the door. She said she would be prepared to look at discounted rates, late payment, slower modules, any way to keep helping me. I suddenly realised that it really is not about the money. She actually does care. It is a most peculiar sensation. I think it’s the first time in my life that I have found someone who is prepared to care for me unconditionally. It is changing the way I see the world.
This may be naïve, and I may write and tell you the opposite in a few days time. But somehow I don’t think so.
Posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 14:39:01
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship » Susan47, posted by mair on August 19, 2004, at 12:55:09
I saw him as being corruptible.
Posted by Dinah on August 19, 2004, at 14:42:11
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship, posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 14:34:41
But the extent to which I am *grounded*, and clearly I'm not grounded in every area, is *because* of therapy, not some independent process. :)
You can ask my husband. I am not by nature a grounded person. But I'm slowly internalizing my therapist's... whatever.
Posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 14:50:54
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship » Susan47, posted by Dinah on August 19, 2004, at 14:42:11
You seem to have an ideal therapist/client relationship. I've had good ones too, so I know the difference. But I think I alluded before to the fact that I'm thinking maybe this relationship had to be the way it was, in order for me to see things about myself. I was always so concerned about the way he saw *him*self though. I always felt like I knew he was corruptible but he put himself in this little bubble of denial. Remember Jadah? I just had a feeling this T had that in him and maybe it was a little too close to the surface. But hey, I may be way off base. This is probably all about me, I mean, isn't everyone a universe unto themselves? Have you ever sat and watched people go by in cars? Notice how everyone is in his or her own personal universe? We're all like that, aren't we? But maybe I'm wrong, ack. I'm driving myself crazy. Goodbye.
Posted by underthecs on August 19, 2004, at 15:10:39
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship, posted by vwoolf on August 19, 2004, at 14:37:32
>>Over the last few weeks things have changed so much, and I now have great feelings of tenderness towards her. She seems so gentle and kind, and really caring. <snip> I suddenly realised that it really is not about the money. She actually does care. It is a most peculiar sensation. I think it’s the first time in my life that I have found someone who is prepared to care for me unconditionally. It is changing the way I see the world.>>
YIPEE! I'M SO HAPPY FOR YOU. I, too, go back and forth. I think it was Susan who suggested to me to try to remember how you felt when you wrote this, even if you do start feeling the opposite later. It's hard though, huh? I hope you can hold onto these good feelings for a really, really long time!
Posted by gardenergirl on August 20, 2004, at 0:42:58
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship, posted by vwoolf on August 19, 2004, at 14:37:32
I'm glad that things are progressing to a good place with your T. She does indeed sound caring and reliable. Also, I'm glad you posted again despite your prior experiences here. I think you put it quite nicely...how personal accounts and debates have a very tentative co-existence. Glad to have you here on Babble.
Take care,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on August 20, 2004, at 0:46:20
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship:Dinah, posted by Susan47 on August 19, 2004, at 14:50:54
> Have you ever sat and watched people go by in cars? Notice how everyone is in his or her own personal universe? We're all like that, aren't we? But maybe I'm wrong, ack. I'm driving myself crazy. Goodbye.
At least you are within your own universe on the way... ;) ("driving" yourself crazy..heh heh heh) sorry, I just had a chuckle.
Take care,
gg
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 20, 2004, at 12:17:24
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship, posted by vwoolf on August 19, 2004, at 14:37:32
> I have felt wounded and insecure, particularly since I was rapped over the knuckles by Dr Bob for my knee jerk reaction to a post I felt touched a personal cord.
> Anyway, I have decided to try and get over my hurt. I value the exchange on this board too much.Sorry about not being more sensitive. I think it's great that you're not letting an issue with me distract you from what everyone else has to offer!
Bob
Posted by vwoolf on August 20, 2004, at 14:07:36
In reply to Re: sorry » vwoolf, posted by Dr. Bob on August 20, 2004, at 12:17:24
Posted by mair on August 20, 2004, at 15:55:15
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship, posted by Dinah on August 19, 2004, at 14:06:06
Dinah - I'm headed off tomorrow for a much needed week's vacation, and I'll have little, if any, computer access, but I didn't want to leave without acknowledging your post.
You're not way off base at all; I just hadn't really thought of this in the way you put it. I don't have boundary issues (or not many anyway). But trying to hold onto an image of myself as a person of value is a daily struggle, and sometimes exhausting.
The fact that I am so uncomfortable with accepting how she might feel about me in the therapeutic relationship definitely makes therapy seem so overwelmingly difficult. We talk about it alot, and sometimes I can take in what she's saying about her view of me, and sometimes I just can't.
I enjoyed reading everyone's best and worst therapy moments, but could really think of none of my own. When I'm not really in the middle of it, I detach myself pretty well.
Take care
Mair
BTW: Did you get my email of about 10 days ago - I mailed it to the other address you gave me?
Posted by Dinah on August 20, 2004, at 15:58:05
In reply to Re: The Therapeutic Relationship » Dinah, posted by mair on August 20, 2004, at 15:55:15
Ugh. No, I didn't. I closed that account because I wasn't using it. The old bullyforyou should work.
I hope you have a great vacation! Sounds like you deserve one.
This is the end of the thread.
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