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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by pinkeye on July 17, 2004, at 1:36:45
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 16, 2004, at 20:54:43
You have a wonderful way of communicating your feelings.
I agree with you, if I were in your situation, I would find it really really hard to let go. I would still like to have as much of it as possible.
There are maybe other non drastic alternatives that you can consider.
Maybe you start seeing another T simultaneously and space out a little your meeting with your T. By that maybe this feeling of overwhelming desire and dependance might reduce a little. If you don't want to penalize your T, then maybe you don't have to mention his name to your new T so that will protect him. I think it is practically impossible for anybody to handle this on their own without getting external help.
I don't think you will be able to come out of this unscathed or unhurt. You are going to be hurt. The aim here would be to minimise the hurt as much as possible. And helping you cope up with the loss and separation.
I wouldn't advise you to take any legal action against your current T. It would mean a disaster to you. I don't know if you will be able to bear the guilt and emotional trauma that will come out a legal battle.
Posted by Deafmom on July 17, 2004, at 8:12:51
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 16, 2004, at 20:54:43
I understand completely. That's why I posted the fact that, regardless of all the negative factors, I still wish for it. I would take him up on it any day and I find myself obsessed with thinking of him. I need to figure out a way not to be so needy of him, but it's hard. I feel so empty in life and he is the only one who makes me feel good. I have DID (mulitple personality), Borderline PD, PTSD, psychotic depression and Avoidant PD. I am very reclusive and scared of people. I am also completely deaf....self-inflicted (two alters faked hearing tests until they got a surgery-hungry doctor to sever both auditory nerves). He is hearing, but signs, so he can hear the variations of my voice when I switch and he's just really wonderful. I understand how you feel as much as I possibly can. People can tell me not to let it happen, but, to be fully honest, if it was possible, I would jump on it (no pun intended). :v)
Posted by Raindancer on July 17, 2004, at 17:43:22
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 16, 2004, at 20:54:43
Jadah, I am really sad for your situation. I think you said it all when you said that you wish you could go back to your original therapeutic relationship, but I don't blame you at all. A year ago I would have done the same . I loved my T very much and that love was so overpowering I would have done anything. Now I love him more than that and the feeling is deep and abiding and I couldn't do anything to hurt his work and his family, both of which mean a lot to him. (Not that he's asked me! this makes it easier!) I think a lot of this is because I'm older than most people here and have already made huge mistakes in my life, which have hurt people and which I deeply regret.
I think you are tackling this with love and sensitivity. I think pinkeye's idea is very good, that you start therapy with someone else to help you through this. My thoughts are with you - take care. Raindancer
Posted by Pfinstegg on July 18, 2004, at 19:15:18
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 16, 2004, at 21:07:45
Your posts are so articulate, and convey the incredibly complex mixture of growth, intimacy and pain which has resulted from this situation. I am not underestimating the positive things which have occurred. I have to admit that I have very strong feelings of sexual longing, and just a desire for the intense closeness which you have described.- it's just not going to happen with my T, but, if it could happen, I would probably not resist it. Probably, as long as you live, you will have strong and meaningful memories of it. As you say, it's not all bad.
But still, so much loss and pain lie ahead. The organization I mentioned-TELL- is for support. There is no pressure to go to court, or anything similiar. Because of the positive aspects of your relationship, this is probably not something you'd want to do. They are just there to help you get out of the situation when and if you choose to. You mentioned that you and your T still do good work together- is it really possible to do both at the same time? I guess it must be! I do like the suggestion of beginning to form a relationship with another T. You would need to find one with whom you could form a strong connection; this would put you in a better position to make healthy choices for yourself and your future. I know something like this takes time to resolve, but I hope you will keep posting to us.
Posted by Joslynn on July 18, 2004, at 19:36:27
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 16, 2004, at 21:07:45
*sigh* I just wrote a long, hopefully supportive post and then lost it because I hit submit without putting in my screen name.
Anyway, what I wanted to say was first of all, thank you for your honesty and for showing us the dark side of the fantasy.
Secondly, like others, I do think you should see another therapist and let go of him. I know that you feel psychologically and sexually bonded, but long-term, how good will it be, how much time of your life and emotions will it eat up? I just feel like you deserve to have someone of your own to love and who loves you.
Also, just so you know, if you do tell the story to another therapist, you may want to ask first if they are obligated to report one of their peers who violates the professional ethics. They may be required to report this kind of thing, I think I read that somewhere.
Personally, I do think this guy should be reported, but that is not my decision to make, it is yours. And I wouldn't want you to end up having that decision made for you by another therapist either. So maybe research the professional requirements about other therapist violations first, either by asking or reading up on it...whether or not they would be required to tell.
This may be a long process for you, but hang in there and please remember it is not your fault. He should have been trained to realize that a sexual abuse victim is very vulnerable in this way. It is hard for me to have compassion for someone who cannot uphold the morals of his marriage or his profession. I think you deserve better, but I am also impressed that you can see all sides. I don't think I could.
None of this is your fault. You were vulnerable and had been victimized before. You were looking for a safe place. I think we all want that and sometimes it can go to another place we hadn't intended.
Posted by shadows721 on July 18, 2004, at 19:37:28
In reply to I'm in love with my therapist, posted by tinydancer on October 10, 2003, at 2:43:19
Tiny,
As someone who also suffers with DID, you have to be very careful. Our boundaries are blurred. We (meaning I here) are easily confused with fantasy and reality. I would really analyze why these feelings are coming up and share them with the T. I think this is transference. Transference is not a bad thing.
You mentioned this person is married and with children. This can go many ways: 1) You want to recreate an unconscious pain by getting involved with an unavailable person 2) You see this person as a safe person to have sexual fantasies. 3) This person reminds you unconsciously of another person that brought you pain in association with sex.
Only you have the answers, but they need to be discovered by you. I really don't think this has anything to do with him. Remember, you are the one creating this fantasy. What's the motive? Is it to stop a therapeutic relationship? Find out whats really going on Tiny. Talk with the T. This is actually very common transference in therapy. Let us know what happens.
Posted by Joslynn on July 18, 2004, at 20:21:18
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Joslynn on July 18, 2004, at 19:36:27
Posted by Joslynn on July 18, 2004, at 20:22:18
In reply to above was for Jadah (nm), posted by Joslynn on July 18, 2004, at 20:21:18
Posted by Jadah on July 19, 2004, at 21:09:54
In reply to I mean, my post was for Jadah (nm), posted by Joslynn on July 18, 2004, at 20:22:18
I just want to thank you all for the continued support and input. It is so nice to have. Someone mentioned that I was honest and articulate, I have to confess that I am also a social worker, currently out of the profession to pursue a paramedic carreer. I think about how many times I have talked to married couples trying to recover from affairs, of just clients with relationship issues. Isnt it funny how you could tell other people what to do to better their lives but you cant take your own advice?! Its hard to look at myself in the mirror sometimes. I also wanted to mention that I am "in recovery" in terms of having borderline personality disorder. Can anyone relate? I heard on a movie the other day someone say that "you would be surprised what a little girl without a daddy will do for a little attention". In a sick way, to some degree, it reminded me of my self and my current situation. No one wants to be alone, especially in my head, that is not a safe place for me to linger too long. Sorry, I know I am just babbling and probably not making any sense. I guess my unconscious is starting to seep out. I hope all is well with all of you, in this Darwinian struggle called love and life. Hope to hear from you soon. Take what you can from this and discard the rest, like I said, my thoughts right now are really disorganized....Im very tired. Also wanted to hear from more of you, out of curiousity, as to how many of you would give in to your T, the object of your affection, had they given you the open door to make your fantasies with that person come true, sexually.... would you be able to say no?? Just curious. I did get one response and I thank you. Its not about people agreeing or disagreeing with me, I think it is a thought that could harmlessly be entertained. What if it did happen to you??? I never in my wildest dreams thought it would happen to me. Blew me right out of the water!! Take care guys.
Jadah
Posted by Joslynn on July 20, 2004, at 8:46:42
In reply to Re: I mean, my post was for Jadah, posted by Jadah on July 19, 2004, at 21:09:54
To answer your question...I couldn't live the fantasy if the door were opened. Then I would lose the safe person I run to when I feel hurt by other men (my father, guys I am dating/have dated, etc.). If he was the one with whom I was involved, then when he hurt me (which he would be doing by having an affair with me) I would have no one to run to. Because he would be the one I would want to run from. So I would lose him by having him.
(Also, the guilt would get to me...if the person were single, it may be easier to contemplate, but I still couldn't do it. That's partly for religious reasons though.)
Well, that is my answer, FWIW.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on July 20, 2004, at 9:26:49
In reply to Re: I mean, my post was for Jadah » Jadah, posted by Joslynn on July 20, 2004, at 8:46:42
Jadah,
It's hard to objectively answer your question about what I would do if the door were open. I am very attracted to my T, both physically and mentally. And I imagine all sorts of scenarios all the time. However, I tend to think that if I were actually presented with the opportunity to ACT on those fantasies, I would run screaming from the room.
I idealize my T so much and I am one of those people who prefer the fantasy over reality since reality is such a let down. I would also be devestated I believe if my T initiated anything because then I would know that he would not have my best interests at heart. I would know that he was not a professional. And I would lose the one relationship in my life where it is all about ME (sounds ridiculous I know).
I am also at the point now (after a year in therapy) where I feel I actually DESERVE the best care possible. And if any boundary crossings appeared I would know I was not receiving the care I deserved.
Posted by pinkeye on July 20, 2004, at 14:07:43
In reply to Re: I mean, my post was for Jadah, posted by Jadah on July 19, 2004, at 21:09:54
Jadah
It reminds me that even Ts or Social workers or not perfect individuals and have their own ups and downs. I appreciate your telling us that you were a social worker.
Till day before yesterday, I would have said that I would grab the oppurtunity to be with my T if there was a chance. But over the past couple of days, realized that marital commitment is very important and loyalty to a marriage is very important. So now I don't know. If both of us had not been married, then the answer is a definite yes. But if one of us or both of us are married (as in my case), then answer is most likely a no.
Posted by Susan47 on July 20, 2004, at 15:45:11
In reply to Re: I mean, my post was for Jadah, posted by Jadah on July 19, 2004, at 21:09:54
I'm new on the board, and I posted today asking about docs in love (because I suspect my doc is a weak weak man).
Would I cave? I would have when I was feeling very good sexually about myself.. because of the way HE was responding to me.
Aren't psych's just a mirror of ourselves? When I was feeling very sexual, I WOULD have had sex with him BECAUSE I know I would probably have had the best sex of my life ... orgasm! Something that happens only when there is absolute trust ... and yet, after the first time, would there be trust again?
I have lots and lots to say, and more to ask ... let's talk!
Posted by Susan47 on July 20, 2004, at 15:52:36
In reply to an open door, posted by Miss Honeychurch on July 20, 2004, at 9:26:49
I absolutely love what you just had to say; it's very much how I'm beginning to feel about things with my psych ... after the initial boost to my self-esteem. I think that was what just about blew me out of the water. It's a new experience having a beautiful man listen to what I have to say, and actually seem respectful and attentive. Of course, that's his job. It's so easy to lose sight of that when it's all about ME though. I NEED to feel good about myself, to survive, and he gave me what I needed for survival ... now I just have to find it in reality.
It sounds like you're on a good path and I hope I can be there too some day.
Jadah I want you to know that your honesty in this forum was exactly what someone like me needs to hear. I love that you're able to share this, and I hope I can support you the way I feel you've supported all of us with your honesty.
Posted by steelmagnolia25 on July 20, 2004, at 16:41:57
In reply to Re: I mean, my post was for Jadah, posted by Jadah on July 19, 2004, at 21:09:54
absolutely. and i'm not proud of that.
Posted by henrietta on July 20, 2004, at 18:34:08
In reply to would I?, posted by steelmagnolia25 on July 20, 2004, at 16:41:57
No, and I'm not proud of that.
Pride has nothing to do with it.
Posted by steelmagnolia25 on July 21, 2004, at 20:23:43
In reply to Re: would I?, posted by henrietta on July 20, 2004, at 18:34:08
> No, and I'm not proud of that.
> Pride has nothing to do with it.For me, the pride factor does matter. Part of my goal in entering therapy is to learn to trust my gut instinct, make choices, and then be able to stand firm on my choices. But the issue raised in this thread touches a painful chord. I would be willing to enter a personal relationship with my T despite the fact that it would hurt many people aside from myself. It's quite humiliating to realize that I'm still so willing to inflict pain upon myself after the successes I've made in therapy. I wish I were in a place where I could take the "high road" on this issue and then be proud of putting myself first.
Posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 0:08:34
In reply to Re: would I?, posted by steelmagnolia25 on July 21, 2004, at 20:23:43
This is a painful issue, and since I'm new to psychobabble, or any type of chat group, this has been a real eye-opener for me. It's kind of nice to know I'm not alone in my struggle, but it's also very sad to realize that this is one of the pitfalls of... what, transference?
However, I've been doing some thinking on this subject, as I suspect my T would have been inappropriate given the opportunity. He's a man, he's aging, he doesn't seem particularly satisfied with his private life, and like any of us he's human too. Also, other factors would've made it easy for him.. my emotional lability, for one.
But I'm happy to say that I think I would say no now. Because after the orgasm, there would be no respect for a man who took advantage of me like that.
Posted by starlight on July 22, 2004, at 18:14:34
In reply to For Steelmagnolia, posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 0:08:34
This seems like a hard topic to tease out, on one hand the therapist is taking advantage of the patient, but on the other isn't the patient to a certain extent taking advantage of the doc as well? Especially if you know that he would probably go for it? Is it much different than a boss/secretary or a teacher/student relationship (at an appropriate age)? Here's a man who hears your worst problems, who hears you speak with a level of honesty that you likely reserve for your appointments, and if he falls in love with you or feels really attracted to you, it seems like it would be tempting to cross that boundary. And then if the patient approaches him and is open to it, that would be even more difficult if he wants you to start with.
We're all stuck in the human condition and sexuality is a huge part of that. It's unethical and it seems wrong, but at the same time it seems human and understandable.
It's kind of like the catholic priest thing. They're supposed to remain celibate. But celibacy is basically denying your own humanity and I think it can lead to abberant behavior. They're people with the same urges as everyone else, but with the burden of a vow that denies their most base urges, they're more likely to act out in secret.
It just seems understandable to me. Maybe I have a hard time with boundaries! ;)
starlight
Posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 18:58:18
In reply to Re: For Steelmagnolia, posted by starlight on July 22, 2004, at 18:14:34
> This seems like a hard topic to tease out, on one hand the therapist is taking advantage of the patient, but on the other isn't the patient to a certain extent taking advantage of the doc as well?
To the extent that a patient is getting his/her needs met, I suppose you could say s/he is "taking advantage". In the real definition of a patient in therapy, though, neediness is part of the equation and therefore how could s/he possibly be taking advantage of anyone?
Doesn't that require that the T be a rather weak-willed person?
Posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 19:04:27
In reply to Re: For Steelmagnolia, posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 18:58:18
Probably everyone has some difficulty with boundaries.
I was so tempted to sexually tease my T, but I never did, and I'm glad of that. I see in hindsight though, that that would've been me meeting my needs. And at the time that would have been okay because *I* was the *patient*.
I'm glad I'm not a T; I really don't know how they manage. They must have incredible dreams!
Posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 19:25:53
In reply to For Starlight(last message for you too), posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 19:04:27
...but I just realized that there's a difference between "wanting" somone and truly being in love. A T should definitely know the difference. If a T is in love, s/he has to do the right thing by the person they're in love with. I know it's idealistic, but that's what we try to build a good personality on, isn't it? In my definition, doing the right thing would be difficult but rewarding. It would mean making good choices. Having an affair with a client is not a good choice, and therefore not the right thing to do. Making a choice to be with the client in a real relationship which isn't threatened by anything, that's a good choice. Deciding to stay with your family and be honest with your client about that is a good choice.
I think as patients, or clients, we need to realize that we also deserve good things in our life. And we deserve much more than just an affair with our T.
Which is why I had to stop seeing mine; I wanted him too much.
I think if a T really wants a patient that way, he better start working on himself and his life.
Thanks for reading my psychobabble.
Posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 19:42:03
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Jadah on July 16, 2004, at 20:54:43
> Again I want to thank you all for your wonderful input. It is very hard to let go. I am curious, for all of you that say you are in love with your therapist... if the opportunity arose, would you be strong enough to say "no", especially when this is the one person who you are closest to and have developed deep feelings for over time.I know it is difficult when I read all of your writings, I know how difficult and helpless it feels to want something/someone so bad yet you dont have any control. Could you put yourself in my shoes? What would that be like for you? I dont see our affair as an ultimate betrayal, because I love him and this is what I wanted. I just want him in my life, whatever that may be. We still do good work in therapy, its my feelings outside of that when I am not with him that hurts-always did. He taught me alot about love, about loving myself, about trusting someone when I am most vulnerable...that not all men are going to abuse me.... I dont mean to be contradictory to the responses I have received from so many of you. I know that you are all right in what you say, it is just going to be difficult to cut loose. I have noone else but him to talk to about this because he is married and I am not out to ruin his carreer because he loves me and is caught in this love triangle. I know it will end, we cant keep on like this, we both know it. I would hope then that we could go back to the way things were theraputically, he has given me more hope and met more of my psychological needs than anyone I have ever worked with in the past (which has been alot).Noone else would hold me when I cried and wipe my face. Noone else would kiss the scars I have all over my body that makes me ashamed. Noone else has ever known me so intimately on a psychological level. He has the most soothing voice and it reassures me that everything is going to be alright. Please do not look at this situation as being all bad. There is a middle ground if you could see what I am saying. The sex will stop eventually, we discuss it all the time. Part of the reason I write you is to let you know that this sort of thing does happen. Be careful what you wish for. Our relationship though, has made me want to be a better person, and I realize now that I am capable of loving someone else and am ready to search out a relationship with someone. I have definately grown. I know longer want to be just someones occassional sex thing for there pleasure. I know what it is like now to make love and i want more of that in a relationship. He has taught me alot, in all ways. Please do not get frustrated with me, but try to see the whole situation all the way through. Please keep responding, I look forward to all of your input. :)
Jadah said in this post that her T has made her want to be a better person. I wonder if she has made *him* want to be a *better* person. Hmm.
I'm really grateful to Jadah. She was very brave to share this with everyone.
Posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2004, at 10:14:27
In reply to Re: I'm in love with my therapist, posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 19:42:03
Sorry, I was wrong. Jadah actually said that her *relationship* with her therapist made her want to be a better person.
Was she talking about her sexual relationship with that man, or her therapeutic one?
Do any of us think that *he* wants to be a better person because of his relationship with her?
Where is Jadah? I hope she's okay, we haven't heard from her on this board for a few days and quite frankly, I'm concerned about her.
Does anyone know how she's doing?
Posted by starlight on July 23, 2004, at 13:13:21
In reply to For Starlight(last message for you too), posted by Susan47 on July 22, 2004, at 19:04:27
I don't know how to explain it other than how I feel about it - it's like when I was in the military - there's not supposed to be any social/dating interaction between officers and enlisted. But I dated several officers, they were more educated in most cases, a couple were doctors, a couple were pilots, I even dated one (who knocked my socks off - I might add!) while I was in my tech school training. I'd sneak out of my window and meet him somewhere (and it was fun!)
They're just humans who've had a lot of schooling and they're supposed to adhere to this boundary, but boundaries are crossed all the time. Look at Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, etc., etc. It seems wrong, but it seems forgiveable to me. Everyone is needy - including therapists and we all seek love, healing, help, closeness. And maybe sometimes, that's the work. Maybe going through that whole experience is the work.....just a thought. Luckily, I haven't had that problem. I had one situation in college where I slept with a professor and was very into him, but then one day, when we were on a trip to the beach, I saw this side of him that completely disgusted me and I was done. From that point on he grossed me out - and then he started stalking me like a wierdo and I had to go to the Victim's advocate on campus to get it stopped. It was a great ego booster and I learned a lot from it, and I gained power by taking control of the situation and ditching him. It's kind of like we can turn the situation around and use it to our own advantage and growth.
Just some thoughts - I'm trying to be as honest as I can be.
starlight
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