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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tinydancer on May 4, 2004, at 11:42:48
As much as I believe in therapy and have a lot of faith in it, I still struggle (I like to think like any normal human being) when things go downhill after an appointment. I find that its really hard to rationalize in my intellectual mind why I continue going to therapy when I get triggered very badly after a session. On one hand I think this means that the appointment was a good one: work was done. No pain, no gain. (I'm a bit of a masochist.)
In my last appointment I had to take some criticism (doled out gently) and it just affected me deeply. I relived so many things both in that moment and afterwards. I feel like suddenly so much has flowed to the surface. I'm scared because I'm tearful and I'm a NON crier. When I cry that is nearly the same as self injuring for me in the sense that I take it as a sign that I am really down in the gutter. Usually the tears come from sadness, depression, but this time it is a lot different. They seem to be more from shame and feeling inadequate and unworthy to even be alive.
Today I had group and one of the members discussed her brother's suicide-last Monday was the 11 year memorial. Obviously that was extremely emotional but the discussion of suicide triggered something in me. Several times I got teary eyed and finally when it was my turn to talk I really lost it. Interestingly this is the first time I have cried in group. EVER. Last year I was in group 3 x week for 4 months and now its down to every 2 weeks and yet still no tears, no matter what I've talked about. (People do not like the non-criers, I've noticed). I just said how I felt so ashamed, because the truth was that no matter how nice I tried to be, how nice I tried to look, how intelligent or funny I was, I had basically no friends and that proved that I was a loser, and to me that is the worse insult a person could have. I said that I felt so alone and that I only wanted a friend. Those words were jarring for me, even to say them. I'm amazed I could even get them out, because that was really opening my heart to the other group members (most of which don't even like me).
Can anyone relate to this at all? Ideas? Thoughts? Especially about the fear of suddenly being tearful. Does that sound stupid? I guess I just have to really be tough or else it will all fall apart. When I let the tears come, I'm afraid they will never stop. The intensity frightens me, I guess that is why I never let them come.
Posted by ghost on May 4, 2004, at 13:01:03
In reply to Getting worse before getting better in therapy, posted by tinydancer on May 4, 2004, at 11:42:48
it doesn't sound stupid. not at all.
i don't consider myself a non-crier, because i actually cry very frequently-- but never in front of anyone. i will never let someone see me cry. i can count the number of times i've cried in front of someone on one hand. i don't know exactly why-- it's just too intimate, i guess. and i know what you mean about being afraid they might never stop once they start.
i don't really have any advice (obviously), but i just wanted to tell you that it dosen't sound one bit stupid, and i know how you feel.
Posted by DaisyM on May 4, 2004, at 13:18:31
In reply to Getting worse before getting better in therapy, posted by tinydancer on May 4, 2004, at 11:42:48
Tiny,
Your post really touched me. I have some thoughts.
I am older than you and have a lot of acquaintances. People tell me I have "lots" of friends. Most of my friendships are work related and pretty one-sided as far as any "support/advice" stuff goes. My fault, I don't usually tell anyone my problems unless I can make it a funny story or I've already done what needs to be done. The exception here might be that my office is pretty aware of my husband's up and down illness and they can be very supportive around medical stuff. (bunch of nurses and human service people One of the most painful realizations I have had in therapy is how alone I feel. I'm talking about that intense loneliness that is a void so big in your soul you can't imagine how it could ever heal or be filled up.
When we go to this place, it is guaranteed to make me tear up. I, like you, am not a very good crier in therapy. I was trained early that "tears don't solve your problems" so as soon as they well up, I shut down. I've sobbed maybe 3 times in the last year. (sob = face in hands, tears actually down the cheek, for 1 minute or less)
My Therapist thinks this ache is the awareness of what the younger me felt as she dealt with all the bad things -- alone. It is her pain and it is very old and very deep. Since we've opened up all this stuff, it is now my pain in my awareness of how much I hold people at arms length. I tried to do this to my Therapist for a long time. He insists on going into the dark places "with me." He tells me to call when I feel bad even if I don't know what I want, so I don't have to be alone with it. And he tells me crying is OK, especially in the consulting room. That I will stop, because it is biologically impossible not to stop.
I think feeling criticized by someone you hold in such esteem has triggered off very old feelings for you. The need to cry might be coming from a very young place. Especially since you've identified shame in there somewhere. Being weepy doesn't mean you are falling apart. It means you are mourning, and allowing the sadness to come forth.
I've never experienced a group. So I don't know what to tell you there. But it sounds like your expression of emotion was appropriate.
A wise friend said to me recently, "How many friends do you really need? If you have 4 or 5 close friends over a lifetime, consider yourself lucky. If you think about it, you probably don't want most people to know all your private feelings. So try to get OK with surface friends." She added that she felt what I was looking for really wasn't a "friend" but instead a mother. Someone who could nurture me, emotionally and physically, with whom I could unconditionally break down and show my flaws and who would still believe in me and someone who would protect me from all this pain. She is probably right.
So ask yourself...what is it you are looking to have a friend for? The answers might help point you to the right direction of finding some.
In the meantime, I know it isn't the same, but you have lots of friends here. Babble has become a haven for me. I encourage you to use it too. You are worthwhile, you do deserve to be happy.
Take good care.
Daisy
Posted by tinydancer on May 4, 2004, at 14:23:38
In reply to Re: Getting worse before getting better in therapy, posted by DaisyM on May 4, 2004, at 13:18:31
Posted by antigua on May 4, 2004, at 14:35:37
In reply to Getting worse before getting better in therapy, posted by tinydancer on May 4, 2004, at 11:42:48
tinydancer,
I've always felt that I had to be tough, to not let anyone inside. I used to cry at the drop of a hat (sad stories, babies, even commercials!) but I can't seem to do that anymore, I can't reach way inside anymore and let it out. It's good to let it out, I swear it is, because it helps you heal. And you are healing. It's horrid when you're going through it, but if you can feel, you can let go. It's when I don't feel, when I'm numb, that I know I'm in trouble.For me, I am terrified of accessing the anger I know that is there directed toward my father for what he did to me as a child. I am afraid that if I let myself feel the anger, it will overwhelm me and I will never recover. Intellectually I know that's not true, but it does keep me from feeling it. So, yes, the tears will stop, but they are helping you know, so try to hang in there.
All my best,
antigua
Posted by rs on May 4, 2004, at 18:06:32
In reply to Getting worse before getting better in therapy, posted by tinydancer on May 4, 2004, at 11:42:48
Oh Tinydancer therapy is hard. Crying makes the pain real and it hurts. So sorry your having a hard time. Thinking of you. Have this fear if friends found out about the real me what would happen so keep everyone at arms lenght. Even therapist many times.
Posted by Aphrodite on May 4, 2004, at 18:16:50
In reply to Getting worse before getting better in therapy, posted by tinydancer on May 4, 2004, at 11:42:48
Sad though it is, it seems to only make sense that we get worse before we get better. We've been in a prison, and although we haven't liked it there, it was still comfortable and familiar. When we are on our way out, we aren't sure of what to do or how to act even though it's the road to freedom. Our behavior begins to change, like your surprise to find yourself tearful. Then we're jolted and run back into the prison. I think this goes on for awhile as the new world seems overwhelming and frightening.
I am surprised out how much worse I actually feel since beginning therapy. It's even become my "new normal." But the alternative for me is to run away from my emotions again, and that doesn't seem right either. So, I keep trying to push through the pain like I'm giving birth to a new me.
Crying is very troublesome for me too. I remember during one of my first visits I said I was concerned that I never cry. Then, as the process continued, I started crying more in therapy. (I was always worried more about makeup smearing and things like that -- I can be so vain!) Anyway, now I complain that I cry too much. But then, I'm one of those people who complains either way. It's always too hot or too cold!
Look at the tears as a sign of growth. I've heard that the chemical compenent of tears of joy and tears of sadness are remarkably different. So, the tears of sadness are actually releasing toxins from your body. Better to get them out.
Good luck, my dear.
Posted by tabitha on May 5, 2004, at 0:55:36
In reply to Getting worse before getting better in therapy, posted by tinydancer on May 4, 2004, at 11:42:48
Tiny, you can feel proud of yourself for showing the group your tears and telling them the feelings behind them. I'm still trying to absorb the lesson myself-- that real strength is exposing your vulnerability, not keeping it hidden. I still feel ashamed sometimes when I cry in group, but the feedback I keep getting from them is that they feel closer and more connected to me when I talk about my feelings and show emotions. I'm guessing that your group probably felt compassion for you and will feel closer to you now that you've let them see behind your mask. Good work!
Posted by finelinebob on May 7, 2004, at 5:06:44
In reply to Getting worse before getting better in therapy, posted by tinydancer on May 4, 2004, at 11:42:48
Just because it feels bad or hurts, don't give in to thinking that things are getting worse!
Maybe this metaphor works, maybe it doesn't: do you know how the body builds stronger muscles? You overstress them, you create small rips and tears, and the body responds by rebuilding and augmenting that muscle tissue.
Now, you start talking about some time you got psychically ripped. Too much stress, too little support -- damage you couldn't repair. But you survived it. Maybe not all that well, but you're here now and capable of taking that stress on. You're here-now, not there-then; you know more now, you have support now, and you should realize that you did survive this before with nowhere near the help you have here-now to face it again.
Some wounds need to be reopened before they can heal. But that pain can be a sign that you are on the road to a better place.
My therapist, when she'd helped one of her clients to a place like this, would take some extra time or ask us to stay in her outer office for a few minutes -- not so that we could compose ourselves as much as to not try to shrug these moments off. To acknowledge them for what they are, take a deep breath, then acknowledge ourselves as having survived, having passed through, and having had a chance to learn.
Once, I dredged up this deep-seated anger I had about something that began when I was only eight -- a failure I couldn't escape and I had cursed God for it, daring God to step into my shoes and try to do any better. It was extremely painful to feel that sense of failure -- but my therapist encouraged me to hold onto it. A few minutes in the outer office weren't enough ... I carried it with me to the subway. So, there I am on the uptown C, angry as hell and hurting 30+ years of hurt, when up pops what on my iPod's random playlist? Kate Bush singing, "If I only could I'd make a deal with God and I'd get him to swap our places". Well, after some spasms of laughter, it finally hit me: if God had been in my place, God probably wouldn't have done any better or worse than the 8 year old I was at the time did. And I finally was able to forgive myself for that failure, and I cried my eyes out all the way to 168th Street.
I don't think I would have found that forgiveness if I was afraid to sink into that pain -- to get to know it for what it was and to see how far I'd come from it. To know I survived it then and, given all I have now just how much I can kick its @ss into submission.
Maybe you've gone through something similar, but I've found that I've gone through four different phases -- so far! -- in my therapy:
(1) You talk about what you want to talk about.
(2) You talk about what you need to talk about.
(3) You talk about the things you DON'T want to talk about.
(4) You talk about the things you never before would have admitted even existed, and your mind does everything it can to keep you from remembering.If that makes sense, then recognize this: the further along you are, the greater the pain you experienced to put those memories where they are. That you can step into that pain once again is a sign of strength, of healing, of trust and of growth.
my $.02, flb
Posted by gardenergirl on May 7, 2004, at 9:54:05
In reply to Re: Getting worse before getting better in therapy » tinydancer, posted by finelinebob on May 7, 2004, at 5:06:44
Wow, what a great description of the process! That really nails it.
gg
Posted by terrics on May 11, 2004, at 16:12:14
In reply to Getting worse before getting better in therapy, posted by tinydancer on May 4, 2004, at 11:42:48
Hi TinyD, Sorry about all the pain you are going through. I was wondering something, and I hope nobody takes offense. Does anyone know the purpose of crying? Also, why do some people cry easly and others like Tiny rarely cry. Terrics
Posted by finelinebob on May 11, 2004, at 21:43:10
In reply to Re: Getting worse before getting better in therapy, posted by terrics on May 11, 2004, at 16:12:14
>Does anyone know the purpose of crying? Also, why do some people cry easly and others like Tiny rarely cry. Terrics
I had to Google this. Looks like the short answer to your first question is "no". This link (Dr. Universe!) had some interesting info: http://www.wsu.edu/DrUniverse/cry.html
A few points from Dr. Universe:
* Babies cry to communicate. For very young babies, crying is about their only effect means of communicating.
* So, we may learn very early that crying is a good way to communicate distress.
* There are three kinds of tears: lachrymal (for keeping the eye wet), reflex (onions and pokes in the eye) and EMOTIONAL tears. Emotional tears differ from the other two types in composition -- they contain 20-25% more proteins and hormones. No one really knows why.
* one theory wrt why we evolved the ability to cry says that it is a byproduct of another process (when we're distressed, a number of things happen to the body processes that are regulated automatically -- breathing, heart rate, adrenaline levels, etc). Again, we learn to associate crying with certain stimuli.Now, I also checked with the ultimate scientific authority on the web -- Dr. Science -- and he has not answered any basic question on why we cry. He did, however, provide this answer as to why we cry when we cut onions:
"You cry because onions are telepathic vegetables. As you slice the onion it sends out thought waves, starting with "Don't you feel guilty about cutting up this onion?" and progressing to "Your mouth is going to smell like a cesspool." The evolution of telepathic powers has protected the onion as a species. The only animals that eat onions are humans, who seem to be telepathically insensitive. In recent intelligence tests, onions placed right between dolphins and real estate agents. If you feel guilty about eating onions, comfort yourself with the knowledge that if they could, onions would not hesitate to eat you."
hth,
flb
Posted by cubic_me on May 12, 2004, at 10:47:17
In reply to Why do we cry? » terrics, posted by finelinebob on May 11, 2004, at 21:43:10
I very rarely cry either. I went for about 8 years without crying at all (I'm only 21).
When I was growing up I was told off for crying and wasn't allowed to show if I was sad or angry. I learned how to not cry, and eventually it became so effective that it prevented me from crying all together, however much I wanted to. I'm slowly learning how to allow myself how to cry again.
Posted by terrics on May 12, 2004, at 21:06:45
In reply to Why do we cry? » terrics, posted by finelinebob on May 11, 2004, at 21:43:10
Posted by terrics on May 12, 2004, at 21:08:17
In reply to Re: Why do we cry?, posted by cubic_me on May 12, 2004, at 10:47:17
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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