![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 17:35:58
And I think this one has some value questions involved.
We talked about the fact that I feel uncomfortable around well groomed and socially ept people. And he lept on the well groomed part, as he does whenever I mention grooming.
He thinks that I should dress more to fit in with those around me. Do at least minimal makeup and style the hair a bit. Admittedly this is because I mentioned my own discomfort around others who I perceive are better groomed than myself. And I fear that they will have a negative perception of me because of my looks and my casual and somewhat eccentric approach to dress.
My therapist thinks it's fine to dress as I do, braid my hair, wear camisoles instead of bras, no makeup, and tennies sometimes. But he also thinks that there are times I should dress to conform. And he gave some examples from his own life where changing the way he dressed changed the way he perceived himself as well as how others perceived him.
My belief is that people need to accept me as I am, or not accept me at all. I felt that way in middle school when I wouldn't shorten my skirts or press my pleats if that's what it took to be accepted, and I feel that way now. He says I'm stubborn, and while that's a good trait to have sometimes, it's not working in my best interests now.
I see this almost as a moral issue, stubborn wench that I am. Why can't people see past the fashionable footwear to see the person? On the other hand, I suppose I'm doing a bit of reverse prejudice by feeling insecure around the fashionable. That probably affects how I treat them, after all. No, on the other hand, I'm no more outgoing around the unfashionable so there is probably no outward manifestation of my discomfort.
So is my therapist right? Should I don makeup, bras, reasonably fashionable shoestyles, clothing, and hairstyle so that I feel less insecure around others? Or should I insist on feeling comfortable as I am?
Posted by holymama on April 23, 2004, at 19:03:53
In reply to Second of two homework assignments, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 17:35:58
Dinah, I have experienced this feeling of being out of place by the way I dress from both perspectives. I too used to dress in braids, hippy clothes, overalls birkenstocks...whatever was comfortable and baggy and definately NO makeup and I felt like people should just accept me. And I usually felt that they did too, at least the people I cared about accepting me. But I know too, that I did feel a certain amount of shame (for lack of a better word) in my appearance, and felt a little like a mouse in the company of better dressed people. But that would not make me change.
It's only been with age/time/whatever that my dress has changed. I went through a very physically fit period as a young mother, when I dressed in very attractive clothing, nothing baggy at all, clogs and Dr Scholls (hey, they're not high heels, but they're sexy on my scale), tight shirts, makeup, I've even started dying my hair bleach blonde and cut into a pixie. What a change from my hippy days! Well, the reverse happened with my peers. In some ways it felt good -- I certainly had the attention of men (at least their eyes!!!), but other women felt uncomfortable around me. They would make comments about my skinniness, and turn around and talk to eachother about the woes of their lives and diets, as if I was excluded from 'real life'.
So now, I am somewhere in the middle. Not very physically fit, but wearing reasonably attractive clothing, a little makeup, my hair cut short and dyed. I like being in the middle. I have experienced both sides, and I see how powerful our physical appearance is. I don't any longer want to hold onto my stubbornness about dressing however I want to, and I don't want to dress in the most attractive way possible. Both extremes repel people. It's actually more exciting for me to go out in the world as a nonthreatening person, so as to attract as many people as possible, and to get the most out of life. As an attractive/not too attractive female. :)
Posted by DaisyM on April 23, 2004, at 22:19:43
In reply to Second of two homework assignments, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 17:35:58
This is a really tough question when you frame it as a moral dilemma...
I would assert that your concerns about your son's social life could come in to play here too. Most kids do not want their parents to stand out, good or bad. So conforming some would be good for him. That doesn't mean you are teaching him to not be your own person, you are sending the message that there is a time and place for everything. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
My children know that they have to wear certain things in church, certain things at grandma's or to school and a bathing suit in the pool. I don't say much about what they choose to wear, as long as it isn't offensive to any group, hate wear, etc.
I think we all learn what certain modes of dress mean. Try thinking of it as a costume for certain occasions. Yesterday I wore my white suite and red heels. I was presenting at a conference and needed to "look" like I was in charge (of what, I have no idea :). Other days I wear a lot less formal attire.
I think you have to just shift your thinking away from someone else's opinion "making" you and choosing to change, a little here and a little there.
Posted by tabitha on April 23, 2004, at 23:08:33
In reply to Second of two homework assignments, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 17:35:58
Do you ever try asking little Dinah what she wants to wear? Would she enjoy being spruced up on occasion?
Posted by pegasus on April 23, 2004, at 23:32:11
In reply to Second of two homework assignments, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 17:35:58
Tough, tough, tough. I hear you on not wanting to change your grooming or clothing just to conform. But then, it sounds like sometimes you do wish you fit in better, if only for the sake of your son.
You seem to be thinking about it from the the perspective of the other people: why don't they just look past the attire and grooming and see the real beautiful you? But, the thing is that you can't control what they're going to do or think. You can only control what you're going to do or think. If we assume that at least some subset of them are not going to look past the outer appearance, then you have the choice to dress in a way that will help them relate to you better, or dress as you want, and accept that those people won't relate to you as much.
I think everyone will agree that you don't *have* to change your appearance. You've been proving that for some time, right? If you wanted to, though, you could choose to change your appearance.
So, then, is there any reason for your own self that you actually want to? Fitting in can count, if that's truly something you'd enjoy at times. Maybe if there are consequences to dressing differently that you'd enjoy, that's not morally wrong, is it? I mean, there are consequences to dressing the way you do now, and it seems as though you're at least a tiny bit unhappy about those consequences at certain times. So you *could* see dressing differently at times as something that you're doing for yourself.
Or not. Just maybe another way to look at it.
pegasus
Posted by crushedout on April 24, 2004, at 0:43:28
In reply to Second of two homework assignments, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 17:35:58
Dinah,I tend to be like you about clothes, I think. A bit of a stubborn nonconformist. But mostly I dress how I feel comfortable and that feels really important to me.
It sounds to me (although I could be wrong) that you wouldn't feel comfortable donning bras and makeup and so forth, so would that really make you feel more secure around people, if you're uncomfortable and not being yourself? It's hard for me to imagine it would.
> And I think this one has some value questions involved.
>
> We talked about the fact that I feel uncomfortable around well groomed and socially ept people. And he lept on the well groomed part, as he does whenever I mention grooming.
>
> He thinks that I should dress more to fit in with those around me. Do at least minimal makeup and style the hair a bit. Admittedly this is because I mentioned my own discomfort around others who I perceive are better groomed than myself. And I fear that they will have a negative perception of me because of my looks and my casual and somewhat eccentric approach to dress.
>
> My therapist thinks it's fine to dress as I do, braid my hair, wear camisoles instead of bras, no makeup, and tennies sometimes. But he also thinks that there are times I should dress to conform. And he gave some examples from his own life where changing the way he dressed changed the way he perceived himself as well as how others perceived him.
>
> My belief is that people need to accept me as I am, or not accept me at all. I felt that way in middle school when I wouldn't shorten my skirts or press my pleats if that's what it took to be accepted, and I feel that way now. He says I'm stubborn, and while that's a good trait to have sometimes, it's not working in my best interests now.
>
> I see this almost as a moral issue, stubborn wench that I am. Why can't people see past the fashionable footwear to see the person? On the other hand, I suppose I'm doing a bit of reverse prejudice by feeling insecure around the fashionable. That probably affects how I treat them, after all. No, on the other hand, I'm no more outgoing around the unfashionable so there is probably no outward manifestation of my discomfort.
>
> So is my therapist right? Should I don makeup, bras, reasonably fashionable shoestyles, clothing, and hairstyle so that I feel less insecure around others? Or should I insist on feeling comfortable as I am?
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2004, at 3:35:17
In reply to Re: Second of two homework assignments » Dinah, posted by crushedout on April 24, 2004, at 0:43:28
Thank you for all your replies and I'm going to ruminate on them for a while. Obviously this topic touches some core issue and some very old pain.
And of course, I'm lazy as all get out, and hate to think of spending precious time on makeup and hair.
Plus, whenever I try I feel like I'm wearing a huge neon sign that says I'm trying too hard. He says you get over that...
My therapist told me on one of the other occasions that he found reason to discuss this with me that it isn't so much whether makeup makes you look better as it is that people think you're making an effort to fit in with the occasion.
I don't know. As I said, whether or not to conform seems to be a very central issue to me. I'm really going to have to consider it. Thank you for giving me more to factor into my considerations. :)
Posted by Medusa on April 24, 2004, at 5:12:58
In reply to Second of two homework assignments, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 17:35:58
This topic is near and dear and sensitive and primal for me.
Based on my own experience, I disagree with your therapist's approach to the issue. He might be very pleased with the appearances of the process I went (am going) through, but it sounds to me like he's suggesting moral/value compromises that I could just never stomach.
I agree with the way you articulate this:
> My belief is that people need to accept me as I am, or not accept me at all.
>
The thing is, my way of dressing presented a continuous challenge to those around me. Plenty of them accepted me as I was. Many others made it VERY clear that, based on my appearance, I was Not Okay. I depended on my slouchy looks to do this sorting for me.Unfortunately, this is a superficial sorting procedure, and I thereby underestimated my ability to figure out who really valued me for me. I also _over_estimated the ability ( and time and energy and awareness) of others, many who are good people with lots of their own pressures to manage, to guage my character and the essence of my person.
Most people don't have time to sit and get to know you before making at least some arbitrary judgement calls on where you might fit in their own lives and values systems. For me, I'd rather be the one making the calls. I figured out that if I removed enough visual barriers to others' desire to know me, *I* became the one figuring out who *I* wanted to know, and the others made more positive effort (rather than the negative-oriented effort it takes to decide to overlook superficial disturbances).
> Should I don makeup, bras, reasonably fashionable shoestyles, clothing, and hairstyle so that I feel less insecure around others?
>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is a sort of false either/or situation. There are other options!
I feel like you might not be permitting yourself a full range of choices, Dinah.
>Or should I insist on feeling comfortable as I am?
>YES. Comfort is key. I don't wear anything that feels any less comfortable than my pajamas.
Another huge, huge aspect of this for me has been performance and raw ability. I hate the idea of being judged "better" or worth more because I found some clothes on a rack that fit and I was able to pay for them or get someone to buy them for me. I found that by making my own clothing, I satisfied my need to know that a "you look nice" happened because of what I can do, because of abilities I have that they don't. Most of my clothes don't look "home-made" - high-quality fabrics sewn into very simple designs generally look expensive and classic.I've written this quickly under influence of a splitting headache and haven't really organised my thoughts well ... let me know if any of it makes sense to you.
Posted by fallsfall on April 24, 2004, at 8:52:18
In reply to Second of two homework assignments, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 17:35:58
>Admittedly this is because I mentioned **MY OWN** discomfort around others who I perceive are better groomed than myself. And **I FEAR** that they will have a negative perception of me because of my looks and my casual and somewhat eccentric approach to dress.
>Should I don makeup, bras, reasonably fashionable shoestyles, clothing, and hairstyle so that **I FEEL** less insecure around others? Or should **I INSIST ON FEELING** comfortable as I am?
*** As I read this post, Dinah, it is not about how other people perceive your appearance. This post is about how **You Feel** about your appearance.
First, you need to decide if you *want* to feel more comfortable with other people. You may be using your discomfort as a defense - it may be a convenient way to keep you from getting too close. I think your motivation for you son is both appropriate and important. Your social skills CAN impact his social opportunities. This would be weighed when you are deciding if you *want* to feel more comfortable.
If you decide that you do want to feel more comfortable, then you need to recognize what is making you uncomfortable. You don't say that people come up to you and say "Your clothes look rediculous". You didn't give any examples of "proof" that your clothes/hair/makeup have ever illicited any overt comments from anyone. But you DO say repeatedly that *YOU* make judgements based on the way that you are dressed.
So if *you* want to feel more comfortable I think you have two choices:
1. You can change your clothes/makeup/hair so that you feel more like you fit in
2. You can decide that you will stop feeling uncomfortable with your current appearance
Of course, the third choice is:
3. You can decide that you "like" feeling uncomfortable (that it gives you some benefit) and make no changes.
*** Disclaimer: I am an unstylish person. I haven't worn make up since my wedding 20+ years ago. My hair is straight (60's style) and I cut it about once a year to even off the bottom. I wash it, comb it and it dries (eventually). I have received lots of Tshirts from companies or events I've been connected with - I wear them because I own them and they were free. I wear sandels when there is not snow on the ground. I don't shave my legs (my leg hair is blond and not heavy, most people don't know). I do dress "up" for work - usually a midcalf skirt (very full, they are more comfortable), and a plain colored Tshirt (just a tiny bit "fancier" than normal). My biggest concern is whether I wore the same outfit the last time I saw the same people because then they might figure out that I don't do laundry very often.
My sister is a fashion designer in NYC. Her clothing is not very mainline. She had a pocketbook that was made from a car's innertube. It had a license plate for the flap, and the strap was made out of a seatbelt. She buys two pairs of socks (one with a red pattern on black, the other with the same pattern, but black on red), and wears one sock from each pair. Her clothes are black, red, and leopard print. They make a statement about who she is - that she is creative, that she makes decisions for herself (the fashion world - of which she is a part - is not going to tell her what to wear), that she is bold, that she likes the fact that she is unique.
My clothes say that I like to be comfortable, that I have better things to do with my time and money than shop. I do wear different things in different environments (i.e. I don't wear skirts at home and I don't wear blue jeans to work), but that is more because *I* want it that way, than that anyone told me I needed to do that.
After I had been home as a housewife when my first two kids were very little, I went back to work as a software engineer. Most software engineers wear bluejeans and Tshirts. I wore suits (with skirts) because I was so happy to be able to put something on that made *me* feel competent and not end up with food (or worse) or playdoh all over it. It was contrary to the culture for me to dress up, but I wanted to and I did. They got used to it, and I would get comments if I ever wore jeans the same way that comments were made if my officemate ever wore a skirt.
This has a lot more to do with whether *you* are comfortable in your appearance, than in *what* your appearance is. If *you* are comfortable with the way you look, everybody else will be, too.
Posted by lonelygirl on April 24, 2004, at 11:26:51
In reply to This one I'm going to have to think about., posted by Dinah on April 24, 2004, at 3:35:17
Dinah,
I have some of the same issues that you do... I never wear makeup, and actually I feel extremely self-conscious on the rare occasion that I do (e.g., for a job interview) -- I'm embarrassed to think that anyone might notice I am wearing makeup. I think the self-consciousness is a mix of several things, including that people might wonder what I'm trying to hide, that it might look like I'm "trying too hard" (and of course failing miserably) to look good, and that I might have done it the wrong way (I don't have much practice applying makeup, nor much knowledge of what is/isn't fashionable). I think another reason is that I attended an all-girls school for most of my life, and nobody wore makeup to school -- in fact, I specifically remember people being teased for wearing makeup ("Who are you trying to impress?"). I also wear a very plain hairstyle (straight, shoulder-length, side part, bangs) and rarely use any styling product.
Just out of curiosity, do you ever wear perfume? I feel the same about that as about makeup; although I always try to make sure I'm clean, and use deodorant, and sometimes use scented lotions, I feel self-conscious about specifically applying a fragrance. Oh yeah, I don’t wear jewelry either (though I used to wear plain hoop earrings, and I still would but for the fact that my ears get extremely irritated even by earrings for sensitive skin).
Regarding clothing, my wish is to blend in, or perhaps fade into the background. Since I am overweight, I cannot wear the trendy styles. I frequently see/hear people ridicule overweight girls (including those much less overweight than I) who try to wear more “trendy” clothes (e.g., shirts that expose their midriffs, shorts, short skirts, tight tank tops, etc. -- and even those who dare to wear swimsuits in public), and talk about how disgusting they are. So I usually wear very plain, somewhat loose clothes, mostly in gray, navy blue, and black, that cover as much skin as possible (I won’t wear shorts, even when it’s 110 degrees outside, and I haven’t gone swimming in years). I don’t own high heels; I usually wear either sneakers or Doc Martins. I usually dress to be comfortable -- I guess my feeling is, if I’m not going to look good anyway, I might as well be comfortable.
It’s nice that you can talk about this with your therapist. These kinds of issues are very uncomfortable for me to discuss, even with my psychologist, whom, as you know, I adore. The problem for me, and I’m not sure if this is how you feel or not, is that if I did try to wear makeup and perfume, style my hair, wear more fashionable clothing and shoes and jewelry, I suppose I might actually “fit in” better, and be more acceptable to others, yet I can’t stand to try because I would feel so embarrassed and self-conscious that I probably wouldn’t be able to leave my room.
Posted by lucy stone on April 24, 2004, at 12:24:31
In reply to Second of two homework assignments, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 17:35:58
I can totally relate to this and have somewhat of the same struggle. I am a very large woman (over 6' tall and overweight) and that makes if very difficult for me to find clothes that fit the "fashionable" definition. I usually have to buy whatever I can find that fits and not what I would choose if I could. I also feel very uncomfortable wearing heels because it makes me even taller, so my shoes also usually fit into the "unfashionable" category. I am an old feminist, washed off my makeup in 1972 as a political statment and never put it back on. I do wear it occasionally when I get really dressed up, but it never feels comfortable. I don't like people to touch me, I don't like to talk about my appearance, and I don't like to look in the mirror. I just recently switched from having my hair cut at Pro-Cuts type places to going to a real salon and having a good cut. That was a major accomplishment for me and is still difficult but I know I look better for it. Sometimes I have to get really dressed up for black-tie type events for my husband's work. These are tortuous for me because I never feel like what I am wearing is right. I always feel more than a bit off. I have just barely brushed these issues therapy since they are so painful for me so I can't give much advice. I kind of think your therapist may be a bit off on this. I think that if you to change your apperance to fit society's expectations when it really isn't you it's not going to help you. I think you will still feel akward and uncomfortable. I think you might need to start gradually, change one thing at a time, and when that feels good more on a bit more. Perhaps do what I did and start with a good haircut that doesn't need much maintenace. You could feel better groomed without having to fuss with yourself. If that feels goods maybe more on a bit. I also see this as a moral issue, but maybe you could make some small change that make you feel good about yourself but still keep your sense of integrity. I should do this myself, I think, but right now it is very difficult.
Posted by karen_kay on April 24, 2004, at 13:16:25
In reply to Second of two homework assignments, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 17:35:58
dinah,
i think that you are absolutely perfect just the way you are darling. i think that you should never, under any cicumstances feel that you should try to change or alter your appearance just to conform.
i do think that you should try to change the way you think others perceive you (and you perceive yourself).. you say that you fear they have a negative perception of you because of your looks and your approach to dress. perhaps if you change that, then you needn't bother with changing the way you dress and you can still remain very cute and comfortable..... people won't judge you because you are so gosh darn cute dinah. and i promise you, you are indeed very cute. someone who wears tennies, pigtails and cute dresses is very cute. you should try to change your perception that others have a negative 'opinion' of you, rather than change your appearance, because even if you do change your appearance and style of clothes, will that really accomplish much? perhaps maybe your therapist will be pleased to see it, but will that really make you happy to be uncomfortable? i still sense you'd have the same problem, if you just changed your style of clothes dear. even with a few compliments. perhaps it would boost your self esteem, but i think you need to change you perception instead dear.
and i don't think you'll feel any less insecure around others if you are what glamour may claim 'fashoinable.' you just need to get it through your 'stubborn' (you said it, i didn't :)) but, beautiful head that others will accept you even if you aren't necessarily an exact replica of them. in fact, it's even more beautiful to see that there are such lovely people out there who have other things to do with their time than to spend it trying to figure out if their shoes match their hand bag. dinah, you're perfect just the way the are dear. and don't try to let yourself tell you any different. wear what you like. and don't worry that others are judging you based on that. if they don't have anything better to do with their time than to judge someone based on what they are wearing, they honestly don't deserve to speak with someone as talented and beautiful as you. and you too should believe that. repeat that to yourself until you believe it!
Posted by Ilene on April 24, 2004, at 14:45:12
In reply to Second of two homework assignments, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 17:35:58
> And I think this one has some value questions involved.
>I read an entire book on the meaning of clothing, and there are other books out there on the same subject.
> We talked about the fact that I feel uncomfortable around well groomed and socially ept people. And he lept on the well groomed part, as he does whenever I mention grooming.
>You've alread thrown a value judgement out here when you mention "well" groomed. I assume you keep yourself and your clothing clean and reasonably tucked in, so what you are talking about is style, not cleanliness or neatness, and you associate that with social grace. Part of social comfort is knowing the rules for both appearance and behavior.
> He thinks that I should dress more to fit in with those around me. Do at least minimal makeup and style the hair a bit. Admittedly this is because I mentioned my own discomfort around others who I perceive are better groomed than myself. And I fear that they will have a negative perception of me because of my looks and my casual and somewhat eccentric approach to dress.
>Do you think this negative perception is (or might be) based *solely* on how you dress?
> My therapist thinks it's fine to dress as I do, braid my hair, wear camisoles instead of bras, no makeup, and tennies sometimes. But he also thinks that there are times I should dress to conform. And he gave some examples from his own life where changing the way he dressed changed the way he perceived himself as well as how others perceived him.
>There are definitely times when it's a good idea to conform. Religious observances, for example. It's clear if you don't dress in an appropriate way that you are showing disrespect. The same is true, to a lesser degree, in other situations.
> My belief is that people need to accept me as I am, or not accept me at all.So--if I don't agree with your choice in skirts, or artwork, or food, I should reject you entirely?
>I felt that way in middle school when I wouldn't shorten my skirts or press my pleats if that's what it took to be accepted, and I feel that way now. He says I'm stubborn, and while that's a good trait to have sometimes, it's not working in my best interests now.
>
> I see this almost as a moral issue, stubborn wench that I am.Appearance issues are often fraught with "morality". How a person dressed when I was a kid (in the 60's) was a statement of values and politics.
>Why can't people see past the fashionable footwear to see the person?
It's more work than most people want to do. You're asking a lot. People are also more comfortable when they think you are going to act in a predictable way, and they make predictions partly on how you look.
>On the other hand, I suppose I'm doing a bit of reverse prejudice by feeling insecure around the fashionable. That probably affects how I treat them, after all. No, on the other hand, I'm no more outgoing around the unfashionable so there is probably no outward manifestation of my discomfort.
>
> So is my therapist right? Should I don makeup, bras, reasonably fashionable shoestyles, clothing, and hairstyle so that I feel less insecure around others? Or should I insist on feeling comfortable as I am?It doesn't sound like you are actually comfortable, even when you are around people who dress the same way you do.
Sometimes wearing clothing that is a little uncomfortable is a sign of respect, because it shows you are putting some effort into pleasing another person. That's one reason we don't stay in our jammies all day.
The only way to find out if you feel less insecure when you dress more stylishly is to do so, and do it more than once. You will probably feel self-conscious at first.
I found when I first started wearing "business attire" (e.g. a suit) that people treated me differently, depending on who they were--people in stores were more deferential, while anti-corporate types were almost insulting.
I think how you dress is your own business, but what you choose to wear inevitably makes a public statement. You telegraph different statements by wearing certain things. If you want to put other people at ease then dress the way they do.
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2004, at 20:10:19
In reply to Re: Second of two homework assignments, posted by Ilene on April 24, 2004, at 14:45:12
So many different points of view! It sounds like my internal dialogues. (grin)
I'm also really sad to hear that other people understand how I feel. It's a rotten feeling. :(
I wonder how much it has to do with my weight. But I also wonder how much my weight has to do with my desire to be invisible. Funny isn't it, wanting there to be more of me so that people won't notice me.
Oh, my head is spinning.
And I'm starting to wonder if I really do want to change more than I want to stay the same.
I want to change. I want to change. I want to change. I want to change.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 25, 2004, at 15:35:28
In reply to Re: Second of two homework assignments, posted by Dinah on April 24, 2004, at 20:10:19
Dinah,
I am struck by the opposing issues of your two homework assignments. Affirmations are designed to foster acceptance for who we are and then your second assignment involves possibly changing something about yourself that seems very core to you. How are you supposed to reconcile the two? Is your T sneaking in dialectics? How can you do both?Also, as a high maintenance girl, I am a bit jealous of those who are comfortable without using all of the products I use and without spending so much time in the morning using makeup to try to look "natural." I just don't feel comfortable going out in public without at least makeup base on (although I rationalize it that it contains sunscreen, and therefore I MUST use it) and a bit of mascara and lipstick. Days when I have gone without, I feel very unattractive and invisible and get more self-conscious. Gotta have my shield on.
Funny all of the ways we deal with discomfort and appearance. Perhaps because my mother was/is a product queen. Maybe that's where I learned it.
Dinah, dear. I read all of the posts, and am torn too. I see value in both approaches (being yourself and making small changes to fit in). The best I can come up with is perhaps to try it and see how it feels. Maybe go to a hair stylist and get one of those great wash and wear cuts (but not so short that you give up your braids!!!) Or go to a Clinique counter (former Clinique girl, so I am biased, but they usually don't look like Tammy Faye.) Find one of the girls who has the silver "C" pin. This means she has some training and experience under her belt. Pick one who look natural rather than like Tammy Faye. And just ask for a light, simple makeup application. You could view it as an experiment or learning experience. How does it feel? Are you more or less comfortable (remembering that change is initially uncomfortable). How do you perceive others' to react? How do you feel about those reactions?
I once had a client who always had to look "perfect" walk around campus all day with a big stain on the front of her shirt. Her task was to note others' reactions and her own to try to disprove that she MUST look perfect or others will reject her. She found it to be really uncomfortable, but she did find out that she wasn't rejected. In fact, some found her to be more approachable. So this experiment was helpful to her, although it did not lead her to always walk around in dirty clothes. :)
You already know how it feels as you are now. Maybe it would help to clarify your values on this if you experienced the other option.
NOT that I am saying you need to change!!!! Just presenting an option for experimenting with yourself.
But still, why the two homework assignments together?
gg
Posted by Dinah on April 25, 2004, at 17:33:59
In reply to Re: Second of two homework assignments, posted by gardenergirl on April 25, 2004, at 15:35:28
Well, I think I can answer that part. I think it's two reasons.
One reason is the nature of my therapist. If I might be a bit cynical, while still saying this about him with the most enormous affection, he has a fondness for psychobabble silliness. Which explains the affirmations. He's also verrry appearance conscious. You can tell by his clothes and his office and his car. He's very shiny. He leaps at every chance I give him to discuss my grooming, which falls far short of his standards.
But he to his credit it was me who said that I was uncomfortable. He was responding (a bit too eagerly to my taste) to my expressed discomfort.
I still haven't quite figured out what to do on this half of the homework assignment. It may take me weeks of scouting out what other people look like, and maybe a bit of shopping to come to a conclusion.
Besides. I can't stand to have any part of my hair touch my skin during the summer. And school is almost over. I have a while.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 25, 2004, at 22:32:41
In reply to Re: Second of two homework assignments, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2004, at 17:33:59
I'm the same way with my hair. Can't have it in my face or on my neck. Probably not the best choice for summer then, that I just had it cut to a chin length bob. I've been finding creative ways to pull it back ever since. But then I get bored with my hair so quickly. Maybe because I am a gemini.
:)
gg
Posted by noa on April 26, 2004, at 18:49:28
In reply to Re: Second of two homework assignments, posted by Dinah on April 25, 2004, at 17:33:59
OK, gals, doesn't this situation beg us to nominate Dinah for one of those ambush makeover things they do on TV?
Dinah, don't devalue your "signature" style too much. Besides, your husband seems to like it!
Posted by Ilene on April 27, 2004, at 10:54:02
In reply to Second of two homework assignments, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 17:35:58
So Dinah--
Have you made a decision about this assignment? Last night in Open you mentioned wearing pants and a sleeveless sweater to your son's classroom.
And how did that go? Once upon a time I could do things like that, but right now I'd be terrified.
I.
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2004, at 11:40:06
In reply to Re: Second of two homework assignments » Dinah, posted by Ilene on April 27, 2004, at 10:54:02
The kids helped me through it. They're apparently quite used to clueless parents. :) I sort of suspect the real reason behind the parents being there is to give the kids a feeling of confidence at being able to show grownups what to do.
I wore the same pants but a plainish pullover top in a lovely shade of magenta instead. The sleeveless sweater is one of my wardrobe staples though, and I wouldn't have had any problems with that. I say sleeveless, but the shoulders are long enough that they qualify as short sleeves, I guess.
I wasn't stylish or trendy, but I was clean. And the kids probably didn't notice either way.
Posted by All Done on April 27, 2004, at 11:46:43
In reply to Re: Second of two homework assignments » Ilene, posted by Dinah on April 27, 2004, at 11:40:06
> The kids helped me through it. They're apparently quite used to clueless parents. :) I sort of suspect the real reason behind the parents being there is to give the kids a feeling of confidence at being able to show grownups what to do.
So it went well, Dinah? :)
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2004, at 12:01:45
In reply to Re: Second of two homework assignments » Dinah, posted by All Done on April 27, 2004, at 11:46:43
Yes, it went well enough. I was uncomfortable, but not miserably so. It was fun to see my son in his native habitat. He's pretty much the same little boy he is at home. He was horribly embarassed of course, at his Mom being in the class. But that's perfectly normal.
I lived, and wouldn't mind doing it again.
Posted by Ilene on April 27, 2004, at 14:01:03
In reply to Re: Second of two homework assignments » Ilene, posted by Dinah on April 27, 2004, at 11:40:06
> The kids helped me through it. They're apparently quite used to clueless parents. :) I sort of suspect the real reason behind the parents being there is to give the kids a feeling of confidence at being able to show grownups what to do.
>
> I wore the same pants but a plainish pullover top in a lovely shade of magenta instead. The sleeveless sweater is one of my wardrobe staples though, and I wouldn't have had any problems with that. I say sleeveless, but the shoulders are long enough that they qualify as short sleeves, I guess.
>I'm sure no one took notes on your wardrobe. You are lucky you can wear magenta. It's a lovely color, and I look terrible in it. I have very strong reactions to colors and color combinations.
> I wasn't stylish or trendy, but I was clean. And the kids probably didn't notice either way.I've been getting my clothes by mail order, on the cheap. I'll share the URLs, if you like. I wear jeans or something similar and tee-shirts or turtlenecks most of the time. I have a few long skirts but they're pretty well worn. I copied one; maybe I'll do it again. I used to sew, but I've hardly done it for a very long time. I think my son needs some shorts, though. . . .
I'm glad it went well.
This is the end of the thread.
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