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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 20:42:33
In reply to Nope, nope nope.. » Penny, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 20:32:39
> Just couldn't put my head on his lap, couldn't sit on his lap, couldn't put my face anywhere near his lap.... Sorry, I just couldn't do it. Unlike Dinah's therapist, I like to assume mine has a penis...
Well, I'm pretty sure mine doesn't - she's a woman, and she has given birth before, so...but in your case - no way!!! And no way with my pdoc either!!!
oh my.
P
Posted by Dinah on January 15, 2004, at 20:43:52
In reply to Re: Did I spell it wrong? » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 20:29:42
I think he would be wrong to terminate you. If he thinks he's in trouble and needs supervision he should get it. I can think of very few circumstances where I approve of a therapist unilaterally terminating (and don't you love that expression - so appropriate) a client.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 20:45:58
In reply to Re: Nope, nope nope.. » Karen_kay, posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 20:42:33
Now Penny, you're getting me all wrong here. It's not that I wouldn't like to do it. It just wouldn't be soothing and comforting. It would be soothing and comforting in a different way..... Why do you make me think these bad thoughts????
Posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 20:53:16
In reply to Re: Nope, nope nope.. » Penny, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 20:45:58
Posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 21:06:49
In reply to Re: Nope, nope nope.. » Penny, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 20:45:58
Hi, I didn't mean to scare anyone with those links. I purposely chose a couple links that were strongly worded regarding boundaries, just to show the other side.
Just because something feels flattering does not mean it is in our best interests as clients. When my shrink made that comment alluding to his wife not communicating well, I was actually kind of flattered to be confided to, then later realized, wait a minute, he went a bit far with that and he knew it, I could see it in his face. And he quickly corrected it. I would love for him to stroke my hair though! Until I ran screaming out of the room, that is...
Note to Karen: While I'm sure you are beautiful, and I know you are definitely entertaining, you are more than that too. Just remember, you don't have to be beautiful or tell funny stories to impress your therapist or us. It's fine to enjoy being attractive and funny (I've beent told that I am both and get a kick out of it sometimes) but you are worth so much more than that too, just because you are alive and you're you.
One time, I said to a short-term male therapist (to whom I was not remotely attracted) that I was sick of people saying, "What do you have to be depressed about, a pretty girl like you?"
He replied something like, "Yes, you're a pretty girl, but you're so much more than that. You're not just a pretty girl. You're a wonderful person. You're you." He was one of those kind of non-sexual, teddy bear people who could say stuff like that and have it come across the right way.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 22:07:21
In reply to sorry links were scary!, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 21:06:49
I'm not at all trying to impress anyone with my funny stories. That's honestly just plain Karen. If you knew me in real life, that's just how I am. I have a real knack for getting myself into situations with my mouth, but I always have stories to tell at least. And I do go through phases where I'm not quite up to par either. That happened a week ago, but I'm usually quick to recover, thanks to everyone's help :)
And though I think I'm pretty darn cute now, I didn't used to. Used to be, I couldn't even look in a mirror. I didn't even think I looked human. But, that's been eons ago. Funny, I call my sister now just to tell her how cute I look on any given day and she just loves it because she knows how much I used to just hate myself. I don't completely value myself based on my sense of humor and looks. Not at all. I'm also intelligent, punctual, have an appreciation for the arts... I could go on all day, but I wouldn't want to bore you.....Also, I don't feel the need to entertain anyone. I enjoy my own posts actually and I enjoy contributing. But, if I don't feel like posting or am not in the mood to be humorous, I'm not. I've had many a rotten therapy session.
I do have my off days (weeks, and yes for a while even years)..
Posted by DaisyM on January 15, 2004, at 23:23:46
In reply to Re: Hey, you found a BD present for me! » DaisyM, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 7:20:07
Don't you have a dusty copy of the Joy of Sex around somewhere? Or did I misread that?
Posted by crushedout on January 15, 2004, at 23:40:26
In reply to Re: a link » Dinah, posted by Penny on January 15, 2004, at 20:18:26
> I think it would be soothing. I can picture myself sitting at my T's feet, with her in her chair, and laying my head on her lap...she's a good mom.Oh, I want to do that, too! I'm crying because I can't ever.
Posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 9:35:47
In reply to Re: sorry links were scary! » Joslynn, posted by Karen_kay on January 15, 2004, at 22:07:21
Hi Karen, I didn't mean to make it sound like I think you value yourself just for your looks and humor. Looking back at my post, I used way too many "you" messages, which I actually don't like to do.
I hope it didn't sound like, "now you young ladies, take a lesson from my wizened experience I have gain in my 34 years" LOL.
So, to keep to the I messages...in therapy, with both my female therp and my male shrink/pdoc, there is part of me that does want them to think I am pretty. And I also like to make them laugh, and know that I can. Once I almost made my pdoc spew coffeee all over his expensive computer.
But then, there's this other part of me that knows some of the best times have been when I've been ugly and crying with them.
Looks...I know what you mean about feeling unattractive, then feeling attractive. When I was a child, I was kind of cute but had the frizzy hair glasses chubby thiing. Then I went through puberty, growth spurts, boobs!, shape of face changes, contacts etc and suddenly, I was pretty. But then I would compare myself, look around the room and decide, was I the prettiest girl or not, who was prettier and why, etc. I was definitely treated differently as time went on...not so much by friends, but getting better treatment from strangers, in stores, etc.
Now, in my 30s, there are tons of young twenty year olds much cuter than me, and I can just look at them and be happy for them and glad that I'm not in my 20s anymore, because emotionally they were hard times.
Well, I am getting way off topic...
Posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 12:25:55
In reply to two more links, posted by Joslynn on January 15, 2004, at 13:49:57
wow, yeah, some of those legal links were disturbing. the "client signs" thing: i met MOST of those criteria: gifts, questions about her personal life, i even gave her a romantic poem about her! so now she's supposed to be planning my termination? ack. scary. i hope she hasn't seen this site.that seems really stupid, though. to terminate clients for that reason. as long as the T's got a handle on her own feelings, that doesn't make any sense. am i crazy here?
Posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 12:53:46
In reply to Re: two more links » Joslynn, posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 12:25:55
I read it as saying, if a client is acting that way, it's time to for the therp to be extra vigilant about his or her own behavior...that the signs show the situation may be ripe for the therapist crossing boundaries, if as a therpaist you are not aware of the pitfalls, not taking care of your own sitch psychologically, etc.
But I just skimmed it, actually. And of course it was from a lawyer.
Posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 12:54:51
In reply to Re: two more links » crushedout, posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 12:53:46
...but I didn't read it as saying, terminate these clients.
Posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 12:58:32
In reply to Re: two more links » crushedout, posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 12:53:46
Yeah, that's what I think would be the right way to deal with it, but that's not what it says. It says you should start strongly considering termination.
Posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 12:59:26
In reply to Re: two more links » Joslynn, posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 12:25:55
Oh, I just read this sentence! "You also need to be prepared to terminate the client without abandoning them".
Yeah that's pretty crummy. We've seen what that's done to people here.
If a therapist repeatedly encountered this kind of sitch, I think they should ask themselves, what am I as a therapist doing, could I be acting seductive in a way I don't realize? I don't think it should always be on the patient.
Posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 13:02:22
In reply to Re: two more links, posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 12:54:51
> ...but I didn't read it as saying, terminate these clients.
Well, it actually says, "You also need to be prepared to terminate the client without abandoning them." And that's only in the part about the "Client signs" so it's not about a situation where the therapist has feelings for the client. I think that's just silly. Don't you?
Still, I found the links fascinating and helpful.
Posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 13:06:22
In reply to Re: two more links, posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 12:59:26
> If a therapist repeatedly encountered this kind of sitch, I think they should ask themselves, what am I as a therapist doing, could I be acting seductive in a way I don't realize? I don't think it should always be on the patient.That's an excellent point. Maybe even if it's not repeated. Maybe they should just always ask themselves that. Because in general, I think feelings don't usually come out of thin air. Although with transference, it doesn't always mean the T's been seductive, either. But it's worth them asking themselves.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 16, 2004, at 15:08:44
In reply to Re: two more links, posted by Joslynn on January 16, 2004, at 12:59:26
I've just really been thinking about my therapist and I've been researching boundary crossings. I read one site that said all cards should be dated and placed in the client's folder. I've sent my therapist numerous thank you cards and he places them in his office. And he discloses personal information as it pertains to therapy, sometimes it doesn't.
Now, I'm really overly anxious that he may transfer me out. I'm certain I'm just paranoid. CERTAIN of it. But, I know that he is ethical and if he feels that he's crossing boundaries I know he would seek supervision. And if that person were to suggest he transfer me out I honestly don't think I would continue therapy. Would he be obligated to talk with me about it first, maybe suggest I stop asking questions first or something. I mean would I have some sort of a warning first at least? Anything to let me know that there's a possibility that he's considering terminating therapy? Funny, I used to think that him crossing boundaries would be a dream come true.
Posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 15:13:20
In reply to Re: two more links » Joslynn, posted by Karen_kay on January 16, 2004, at 15:08:44
I would take those legal links with a grain of salt, Karen Kay. They were pretty alarmist.But I'm planning to check with my therapist to find out if she's thought about terminating me. Just to reassure myself.
> I've just really been thinking about my therapist and I've been researching boundary crossings. I read one site that said all cards should be dated and placed in the client's folder. I've sent my therapist numerous thank you cards and he places them in his office. And he discloses personal information as it pertains to therapy, sometimes it doesn't.
>
> Now, I'm really overly anxious that he may transfer me out. I'm certain I'm just paranoid. CERTAIN of it. But, I know that he is ethical and if he feels that he's crossing boundaries I know he would seek supervision. And if that person were to suggest he transfer me out I honestly don't think I would continue therapy. Would he be obligated to talk with me about it first, maybe suggest I stop asking questions first or something. I mean would I have some sort of a warning first at least? Anything to let me know that there's a possibility that he's considering terminating therapy? Funny, I used to think that him crossing boundaries would be a dream come true.
Posted by Penny on January 16, 2004, at 15:24:35
In reply to Re: two more links » Joslynn, posted by Karen_kay on January 16, 2004, at 15:08:44
I would think that it is all about what the therapist can handle and what he/she can't. I wouldn't worry too much about what questions you ask, Karen, as it's up to him to decide whether or not he wants to respond. If he starts to feel he's disclosing too much personal info, then perhaps he will stop answering all of your questions so frankly. But I am still a believer in being pretty honest with your T, though I know there are always exceptions. Perhaps I have just been fortunate to have therapists I could be perfectly honest with.
As for your situation, I would think that the only way your T would refer you on would be if he thought either he couldn't help you or wasn't helping you, OR if he found himself contemplating acting on feelings he had developed for you (mind you, I didn't say that I think he has developed feelings, just that IF he did and IF he found himself thinking about acting on them, THEN it would be his responsibility to refer you on). However, if the problem is over-disclosure on his part, I would think he would simply change his approach, i.e. not disclose so much.
Of course, to me that sounds like a reasonable solution to a problem such as that. But all people and all situations aren't reasonable. But I certainly wouldn't worry about it if I were you.
P
Posted by Karen_kay on January 16, 2004, at 15:39:10
In reply to Re: Hey, you found a BD present for me! » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on January 15, 2004, at 23:23:46
Oh, yes in fact I do! And if you like, I have an extra copy of the Kama Sutra as well. I can send them together if you want? But, keep in mind the first book is outdated and the pictures aren't really up to par....Just a heads up for you! I could include a few pictures of my handomse therapist (fully clothed, thank you) in the front cover to help add to your imagination, if you like?
Hope your birthday went well! :)
Posted by Karen_kay on January 16, 2004, at 16:31:59
In reply to Re: being referred on » Karen_kay, posted by Penny on January 16, 2004, at 15:24:35
But, in your honest opinion, do you think he's acting or responding inappropriately? Honestly? Because I'm certain if he feels he is then he would seek supervision and from there, ect....
Posted by Dinah on January 16, 2004, at 17:27:32
In reply to Re: two more links » Joslynn, posted by Karen_kay on January 16, 2004, at 15:08:44
Karen, my therapist said he's only referred out a patient once. And that he gave her plenty of warning first but she wouldn't stop serious boundary crossing behaviors (not words, behaviors).
I know it's tough, but try not to worry.
Posted by Dinah on January 16, 2004, at 17:29:42
In reply to Re: two more links » Joslynn, posted by crushedout on January 16, 2004, at 13:02:22
> > ...but I didn't read it as saying, terminate these clients.
>
> Well, it actually says, "You also need to be prepared to terminate the client without abandoning them." And that's only in the part about the "Client signs" so it's not about a situation where the therapist has feelings for the client. I think that's just silly. Don't you?
>
I do. And not only silly, stupid and foolish as well. The surest way for a therapist to get sued is to abandon a client and have a vindictive and/or dead client as a result, it would seem to me. And "terminating without abandoning" is such a stupid oxymoron it isn't even worth discussing.
Posted by Penny on January 16, 2004, at 23:42:04
In reply to Re: being referred on » Penny, posted by Karen_kay on January 16, 2004, at 16:31:59
> But, in your honest opinion, do you think he's acting or responding inappropriately? Honestly? Because I'm certain if he feels he is then he would seek supervision and from there, ect....
Well, I'm not sure why my opinion on this really matters, as he's your therapist, but...
I don't know him at all. And I only know you through babble. So I am speaking solely from extremely limited information! But, if it were me - if he was MY therapist - and he said some of the things to me that he's said to you, I can assure you that it would make me uncomfortable. Then again, I never would have admitted to him that I had ever fantasized about him! So I guess it wouldn't be an issue - probably wouldn't come up at all!
I would hope that, as a professional, he would seek supervision if he felt at all inclined to consider violating any major boundaries. But I have to leave it up to you, Karen, to know whether he really would or not, because, as I said, I don't know him. I guess I'm a bit wary because of some of the horror stories I've heard about unethical therapists and the pain they can cause, but, then again, perhaps some would consider my very own darling pdoc to not be as professional or rigid in his boundaries as he perhaps should be. Though none of his boundary crossing has ever been things that make me uncomfortable, except for offering to loan me money one time when I was strapped and he was worried about me. Talk about fulfilling the daddy fantasy...but I didn't borrow any money. And my T made me promise that if I felt that his offering such a thing would put me in an uncomfortable position, that I would bring it up with him.
But I guess it's all in how you look at it. You are in the situation. I am an outsider. You have your experiences and I have mine. So it's hard for me to say. On the surface, I would have to honestly say that I think he should really be a bit cautious in how he relates to his patients, or he should be keeping good records, or he should be seeking supervision to ensure that there is nothing that would get him in trouble or hurt you or other patients. And, I guess, in knowing how very young he is, I would hope that he's keeping good records and such anyway - it's too early in his therapy career for him to be an expert, Ph.D. or not, and while no therapist ever knows it all, 10 years from now he may look back on some of his conversations with you and wince with an "I can't believe I said that!"
At the same time, perhaps he's treating you as he would treat anyone your age, or perhaps he just knows he can be more laid back with you. I dunno. Just follow your gut. I feel YOU will know, really, if something is not right. And if it makes you uncomfortable, don't hesitate to tell him so! If not, then don't worry about it.
P.S. - Feel free to ignore any or all of what I wrote above!
P
Posted by Karen_kay on January 17, 2004, at 10:22:07
In reply to Re: being referred on » Karen_kay, posted by Penny on January 16, 2004, at 23:42:04
I'm just in need of constant reassurance. That's all :) The thought has never crossed my mind that he may act on any type of boundary crossing or that he has ever had any type of inappropriate thoughts about me. My fear is that he is a bit too forthcoming with information, due to the fact that he is new at this.
What I am worried about is the fact that I am inquisitive and he is not highly skilled at directing the conversation in a different direction (which I love!). So, when I ask him personal questions he is more likely to answer rather than ask why I would ask such a question. And I'm certain he asks himself 10 minutes later "Oh no, why did I answer that?", I'm sure it isn't going to be 10 years later.
And he doesn't keep notes at all. A brief paragraph of what happened during the session. He says he has a good memory, which is true. Is that bad? Sometimes I get the feeling he's a little boy in big boy clothes. But, referring a client out is only an option IF and ONLY IF a therapist feels that they aren't helping a client or if they feel they may act upon feelings, right? If that's the case, then I see no need for alarm.
I think I'm going to go in during my next session, have a brief discussion about my asking too many questions, see what he says, also see if he's considered terminating my therapy and move on ASAP so I don't give him any ideas!As for your Pdoc offering you money, did that make you uncomfortable? That is a rather strange situation. On one hand it seems SO nice. It shows that he really cares about your wellbeing. But it begs the question of ethics and his ability to seperate himself from his clients. But, it also shows that you hold a special place at the front of the class :) I'd have snatched the $ from his hand as fast as I could, but that's just me. And said, "Could you bill me for it?" No, I don't think I could have taken the money either. I'd feel like I would have owed him. But, I don't tell my therapist when I have money problems. I like to pretend like I don't have money problems. But, I'm really skilled at denial. I could give you a lesson if you like :) However, it isn't a very effective coping technique. Especially if you spend money you don't have. YIKES!
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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