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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cordy on January 14, 2004, at 11:20:39
So I have a friend. Depressed friend. And I may have mentioned that I thought depression was a selfish disease. Its all about yourself, I mean, how can you deny that? Anyway, I think I really insulted her. I said that sometimes I feel like depressed people really do just need to get over themselves, realize that everyone has problems. That they are not alone in feeling that way. Anyway, I looked the subject up and got this post. And after reading what you guys have to say, I really feel horrible about what I said to her. The thing about snapping out of it... yeah. I think that’s how I must have sounded to her. So since you guys have had this said to you, what’s the best way to reconcile? Also, in defense of the people that have said this, isn't it understandable how we came to this conclusion? I personally have never experienced depression. I lived with my stepfather, who has a sever form of it. He lies in bed till 4 every day and is unwilling to do anything for the family. I ended up taking care of him. This is most likely the bases in my annoyance of the disease. I only wanted to help her get better. And I'm completely willing to sit through the rough patches and continue to be her friend. So give us a break? And I would appreciate some advice on how to fix this greatly…
Posted by EmmyS on January 14, 2004, at 11:41:32
In reply to snapping out of it, depression is selfish, posted by cordy on January 14, 2004, at 11:20:39
An honest direct apology comes right from your heart to hers. (In my rather odd mind, it's an act of a highly spiritual nature.)
You simply look inside yourself at how you feel about what you said, and how those statements make you feel now. Speak about those feeling to her. Explain to her exactly what you explained to us - that your past struggle with your step father's illness has left you with some residual anger, and you misdirected it at her. Now that you understand that, you feel.....fill in the blank. Sad? Sorry? Embarrased?
You did the right thing - you realized that what you did just didn't feel right, you got on the internet to try to understand it from a educational point of view, you looked inside yourself for your own personal experiences, you put it all together. I'm VERY impressed. You showed tons of insight.
So, time to talk to your friend - she needs you. Hopefully, she is in a good enough place that she can be open to your apology. If not, you may need to make more than one attempt. Prepare for that possibility.
Take care of yourself so you can take care of others.
Good luck!
Emmy
Posted by Penny on January 14, 2004, at 11:52:20
In reply to snapping out of it, depression is selfish, posted by cordy on January 14, 2004, at 11:20:39
First let me say bravo on realizing that what you said might not have been the most constructive way of trying to help your friend. One of my biggest gripes on this board and elsewhere is that people who have never suffered from depression can't possibly understand what it's like for those of us who have. A while ago I started a thread on the social board (and I'm sure there's been more than one!) about the worst things someone can say to someone who is depressed. Here's a link.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030626/msgs/238151.html
As for what to do now - yes, I understand where you are coming from in that you haven't suffered from depression yourself and it might seem like a selfish illness. But realize that all illness in the way you describe it is really selfish - illnesses are only about the person who has the illness, really. Cancer, diabetes, mental illness, etc. - these are not contagious - they are affecting the sufferer directly and others only indirectly. But they ARE illnesses. Mental illness is not something someone makes up - trust me, if I had a choice, I certainly wouldn't choose to be depressed.
Anyway, to answer your question, I would tell her that you did a little research and that you realize that what you said to her was probably not what she needed to hear, and that you apologize. Tell her that you know now that there are many others who feel like she does. Ask her what you can do for her. She may not know what to tell you. Tell her about this site - it's a great place to get support. Offer to listen - but, and this is KEY - don't try to FIX her problems. Because you can't, no matter how much you want to. If she hasn't seen a therapist or a psychiatrist, ask her if she'd like you to HELP her find someone. If she'd like you to go with her to the first doc visit. Be patient. Realize that she is probably seeing the world through a bit of a haze right now (or in total darkness, perhaps), but that this is a medical condition - it is not something that she can just snap out of, and I promise you, she wishes she could. We all do.
Thanks for posting and for taking the time to educate yourself about your friend's illness. You obviously care a great deal.
Feel free to post back anytime.
Penny
Posted by Poet on January 14, 2004, at 12:27:54
In reply to snapping out of it, depression is selfish, posted by cordy on January 14, 2004, at 11:20:39
Hi,
You're right about the misconceptions about depression (and other mental health issues for that matter.) It's completely understandable why you and so many others think (thought)it's selfish, snap out of it, etc. Caring for your stepfather is stressful, and tiring, and I can understand why you
are annoyed with people who are depressed.Someone told me "you just need to get hit in the head with a 2 by 4 and get some sense knocked into you." If only it were that easy.
What I would have liked to hear was "I'm sorry for what I said, I didn't understand what you're feeling, you can count on me when things get rough."
You are a good friend.
Poet
Posted by cordy on January 14, 2004, at 14:55:44
In reply to Re: snapping out of it, depression is selfish » cordy, posted by Penny on January 14, 2004, at 11:52:20
Thing is, I'm not sure what I said was wrong. It wasn't the correct thing to say at the time, granted. But I still feel like, in non chemical cases, depression can be a very self-indulgent disease. And isn't it possible to help someone by making them realize that they are not alone in their insecurities and worries? So what can I say to her? I'm not going to lie and say I was completely wrong.
Posted by Penny on January 14, 2004, at 15:18:08
In reply to Re: snapping out of it, depression is selfish » Penny, posted by cordy on January 14, 2004, at 14:55:44
I understand your point, but I disagree that true depression is ever non-chemical. Even 'episodic depression' - i.e. depression that follows a traumatic event, like a death - probably has a chemical basis. Some people are predisposed to depression. Sometimes it will hit for no apparent reason, other times it will be brought on by stress, but people who are truly depressed, in the clinical sense, most likely have a predisposition for it. Which is why not everyone has a depressive disorder regardless of their life circumstances. Of course this whole point continues to be debated, but I truly believe that clinical depression is chemical. There are other factors, of course, but in the end it comes down to differences in brain chemistry, which messes with everything else.
I didn't mean to say that you were entirely in the wrong - you were trying to help her, and I understand that. The problem, in my experience, is that people who are depressed are all too aware that there are other people who have it as bad or worse than they do. And those of us who have depression feel a great deal of guilt over feeling that bad when 'hey, my life's not really that bad - what's my problem?' I guess what I'm trying to say is that your friend probably has already given herself the "snap out of it, you're being selfish" talk. What she needs from you is more "I accept you as you are and I'm here when/if you need me to listen. But you have to tell me what you want me to do."
I think the other folks who posted in response to you probably expressed their thoughts more clearly than I have. I guess I'm speaking from a place of having a close friend, who has herself suffered from depression but deals with it much differently, giving me pep talks and whatnot when I'm feeling really low, and a grandmother who is always reminding me about people who have it worse than I do, and it gets to be a bit much.
I don't know how much of this makes sense - my brain is a bit fried at the moment after working all day - but I'm just trying to tell you from my perspective how your friend might feel (without knowing her, I know) as a sufferer of depression. I do admire you for going to such lengths to help her. Perhaps you should ignore my posts and read the others and follow their advice instead? Sometimes my best intentions are a bit misguided.
Sorry.
P
Posted by cordy on January 14, 2004, at 17:20:09
In reply to Re: snapping out of it, depression is selfish » cordy, posted by Penny on January 14, 2004, at 15:18:08
Not at all. Your post was the most helpful one. thats why I responded to it. But if it's something that she might be telling herself in her head (the snap out of it thing), then why should she blame me for saying the same thing? I understand that it would be painful to hear it out loud, but at the same time... maybe it's necassary.. like, if you're thinking it too. But incapable of actually doing it... I dont know. I really want to put this behind us, but at the same time I seem to be completely unwilling to say I was wrong. I'm not sure I was. her depression was not caused by anything other then some upsetting things people said to her. It was not chemical, I suppose it could be termed as circumstantial.
Posted by Dinah on January 14, 2004, at 19:15:22
In reply to Re: snapping out of it, depression is selfish, posted by cordy on January 14, 2004, at 17:20:09
Maybe you should just let it be. You can be as much a part of her life as she'd like you to be, at a level she feels comfortable with. And vice versa of course.
You could apologize for what you feel you can honestly apologize for. Then stop. Period. Don't try to explain anything more. A lot of times I get in waaay worse trouble trying to explain.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 14, 2004, at 20:19:06
In reply to Re: snapping out of it, depression is selfish, posted by cordy on January 14, 2004, at 17:20:09
You might also consider apologizing for saying something that hurt her. Clearly that was not your intention, and it's the hurt that hurts, not necessarily that you said something others may not agree with. Whatever you believe about the source of depression, and there are many theories, being depressed is PAINFUL. There are NO easy answers to getting better. She may appreciate hearing your validation that what you said hurt without getting into a debate about whether or not you were right.
As others have said, the most helpful thing for those of us who are depressed for whatever reasons, is having someone accept and understand that we are in pain. And that in and of itself, without attempts to help "cure" it, is very valuable.
Take care and congratulations on being sensitive and caring enough to want to understand for your friend! That means a lot.
g
Posted by cordy on January 15, 2004, at 21:30:32
In reply to Re: snapping out of it, depression is selfish » cordy, posted by gardenergirl on January 14, 2004, at 20:19:06
thanks everyone who responded to this post. I was really in need of help. It all worked out for the best.
Posted by Medusa on January 18, 2004, at 5:28:12
In reply to Re: snapping out of it, depression is selfish » Penny, posted by cordy on January 14, 2004, at 14:55:44
> depression can be a very self-indulgent disease.
>Would you consider doing some reading on family systems? See, often, depression and other illnesses can be caused or exacerbated because of their helpful function in families or other social systems. Roberta Gilbert's _Extraordinary Relationships_ gives a fairly easy read of one approach to family systems theory.
Posted by cordy on January 18, 2004, at 9:36:08
In reply to depression's selfless function, posted by Medusa on January 18, 2004, at 5:28:12
Is this to understand my friends depression better? Or to help me understand my stepfather better? Because I'm down with the first, but the second... not sure I want that. see, he's a jerk. Depression or no, I have no forgiveness for him. He did things no disease can make up for. He did things even completely retarded people are tought not to do. (hitting, as per example)
Posted by Medusa on January 18, 2004, at 9:54:01
In reply to Re: depression's selfless function, posted by cordy on January 18, 2004, at 9:36:08
> Is this to understand
probably not for either person specifically, but to give you insight for future depressed people you might encounter ...
> Depression or no, I have no forgiveness for him.
>Heh. "Forgiveness" is highly overrated and oft misunderstood. Those who request (or demand) it often want absolution from responsibility for their contributions to very hurtful situations. They want clean slates, reconciliation, a smiling "of course I'll forgive you" and a big warm fuzzy hug. And it's held over the heads of those who don't comply, "if you can't forgive you'll be bitter" and so on. Lots of books about the healing power of forgiveness, and not too many on standing up and taking responsibility for your own idiocy, aggression, and various other shortcomings and weaknesses. Wonder why that is?
The family systems stuff isn't about forgiveness or letting anyone off any hook. In fact, it's more about investing more in your own individuation and less in other people's games. About setting limits and not letting others get away with things that other approaches would suggest to "forgive". There are different schools of thought within family systems theory, and so far I've read mostly just from one school. I've seen it work amazingly well in a few instances already ... it's not the kinder-gentler way at ALL, but for those who have the guts to go through with some pretty harsh maneuvers, the pay-off is rapid and significant.
I sound like I'm selling snake oil, don't I? ;]
Posted by cordy on January 18, 2004, at 15:46:27
In reply to Re: depression's selfless function, posted by Medusa on January 18, 2004, at 9:54:01
So is it a book that I just read? Or does it involve, like, doing things? like, talking to him? yuck... and yes, I'm so with you on the forgiveness thing. Why is it necassary? I don't care if he's happy. He certainly never cared whether I was. Not my issue much?
Posted by Medusa on January 20, 2004, at 13:11:57
In reply to Re: depression's selfless function, posted by cordy on January 18, 2004, at 15:46:27
> So is it a book that I just read?
There are books - and I've gotten a lot of relief just by reading and thinking.
> Or does it involve, like, doing things? like, talking to him?
>It might. Some ideas are pretty weird - like THANKING someone who was a real jerk. Not thanking them for anything bad, only for things that were truly helpful or positive. It turns out that a lot of freedom comes from giving thanks ... in a way, I found that it highlighted just exactly how LITTLE there was to thank for.
>I don't care if he's happy. He certainly never
>cared whether I was. Not my issue much?But him not caring whether you were happy was a big, big offense. And I bet that it hurt you on some level. Even though it's "not your issue much". I know people who are depressed, really horridly hideously depressed, and they CARE about whether their kids are happy! I wouldn't link the two factors. I'm guessing that you could use some kind of freedom from the damage he inflicted by not caring.
Posted by cordy on January 20, 2004, at 22:48:51
In reply to Re: depression's selfless function, posted by Medusa on January 20, 2004, at 13:11:57
It's so strange that I feel more comfortable talking about these thing to strangers online then to really close people. I didn't link being depressed with not caring if I was happy. I linked not caring if I was happy with not caring if I was happy. Know what I mean? anyway, I don't think this is why I said things to my friend. at least I hope not. weird to think of my stepfather as having such a lasting effect on my psyche. bad weird...
Posted by terrics on January 21, 2004, at 17:12:04
In reply to Re: snapping out of it, depression is selfish » cordy, posted by gardenergirl on January 14, 2004, at 20:19:06
You all seem so nice. All I have to say to this thread is depression is selfish...It takes your life away. Sometimes you feel a little better and come up for air and there is that depression again, taking your life. terrics
Posted by antigua on January 21, 2004, at 18:46:06
In reply to Re: snapping out of it, depression is selfish, posted by terrics on January 21, 2004, at 17:12:04
Welcome! We are nice! We understand each other in a way that most other people in our lives don't. I don't feel so alone when I find out there are others who have made it through some of the stuff I'm painfully going through.
Keep posting..
antigua
This is the end of the thread.
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