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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Elle2021 on December 31, 2003, at 16:24:23
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » Elle2021, posted by crushedout on December 30, 2003, at 23:34:52
Crushedout,
I'm glad it helped you. The only reason I can think that she would be encouraging transference, even though she knows about your crush, is that perhaps she is trying to avoid making you feel rejected, because she thinks you are on the brink of making a big step. That is the only thing I can think of. I'm glad that you are going to discuss it with her, hopefully that will resolve the situation.
Elle
Posted by dragonfly25 on January 1, 2004, at 9:39:57
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » dragonfly25, posted by Elle2021 on December 31, 2003, at 16:18:08
> > hi elle,
> >
> > i keeping reading about transference, what is it? thx
>
> Hi!
> Transference is when the patient develops romantics feelings toward the therapistHi
wow! really? i had never heard of that. i can't believe this is encouraged. but what do i know. if it helps why not, if i ever had romantic feelings for my doctor i would stop the therapy- is that a bad thing? but just b/c i would think it would interfere with MY issues that i came to him for. this must be a freudian technique. i felt like i was missing something cause i kept reading about transference, it seems like everyone is experiencing it, thanks
dragonfly
Posted by henrietta on January 1, 2004, at 11:51:22
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » Elle2021, posted by dragonfly25 on January 1, 2004, at 9:39:57
Transference is when the patient transfers onto the therapist feelings about someone in the patient's life. Could be your mother, father, any important figure with whom you have unresolved conflicts. The idea is that the patient can work through the unresolved conflicts using the therapist as a sort of stand-in for the mother, father, whatever. The feelings are not necessarily romantic. (This is a very poorly worded explanation---sorry. Think I'll go look it up on the internet!)
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 14:37:36
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » Elle2021, posted by dragonfly25 on January 1, 2004, at 9:39:57
There are two ways of using the term. One is the narrow way of describing feelings towards others in your life being projected onto your therapist. So you might have feelings towards your therapist that really "belong" to your mother.
The wider definition is that transference is anything that you feel towards the therapist that isn't clearly a natural response to the real relationship. Like if your therapist answers the phone and talks to his carpet cleaner during your session and you get mad, that isn't transference. He was being rude and you got angry to a degree proportionate to the offense. But if your degree of anger is completely out of proportion to the offense, you might consider whether transference is in effect. One way transference is useful is that themes that play out in every part of your life get played out with your therapist. So if you tend to be angry with authority figures and you see the therapist as an authority figure and get angry with him, you can work on that in therapy to improve your real life relationships with authority figures. Or if you tend to see men as threatening, and see your male therapist as scary but learn to trust him anyway, that could improve your relationships with other men as well. Or if you can only relate to men sexually and you sexualize your relationship with your therapist, you can use the relationship to learn different ways to relate. Etc, etc.
I like the second definition better, as I think it covers more useful ground.
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 14:42:07
In reply to I saw her today, posted by crushedout on December 31, 2003, at 14:50:32
I think it's great that she admitted the problem, but I also think you should ask her to get supervision on your case. She's admitted to feeling "compelled" to have a connection with you. There's no telling what else she'll feel "compelled to do" and that'll just mess with your mind.
If you want to continue to see her, it's really really important that her behavior be closely monitored by someone who can keep tabs on her. You shouldn't have to do that yourself.
You're not any two people trying to negotiate a relationship. You're a professional and someone under a professional's care. This is her problem and she should take *extreme* precautions to make sure you aren't hurt by it.
Posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 14:56:53
In reply to Re: I saw her today » crushedout, posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 14:42:07
well, that sounds like an excellent idea, but that would ruin my chances of seducing her, dinah!someone else needs to tell her to do that, because i'm only motivated by my desire to be her lover, no matter how much pain it causes me.
it's not sensible, but it's really where i'm at in my head. must be frustrating for you guys, who know i'm out of my mind.
> I think it's great that she admitted the problem, but I also think you should ask her to get supervision on your case. She's admitted to feeling "compelled" to have a connection with you. There's no telling what else she'll feel "compelled to do" and that'll just mess with your mind.
>
> If you want to continue to see her, it's really really important that her behavior be closely monitored by someone who can keep tabs on her. You shouldn't have to do that yourself.
>
> You're not any two people trying to negotiate a relationship. You're a professional and someone under a professional's care. This is her problem and she should take *extreme* precautions to make sure you aren't hurt by it.
Posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 15:08:11
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » Elle2021, posted by dragonfly25 on January 1, 2004, at 9:39:57
> wow! really? i had never heard of that. i can't believe this is encouraged. but what do i know. if it helps why not, if i ever had romantic feelings for my doctor i would stop the therapy- is that a bad thing? but just b/c i would think it would interfere with MY issues that i came to him for. this must be a freudian technique. i felt like i was missing something cause i kept reading about transference, it seems like everyone is experiencing it, thanks
Dragonfly,
Not everyone experiences it. I'm like you. If I started feeling a romantic attraction I think I'd get out of there. And in the broader definition Dinah used, where it is overreacting to things your therapist does based on your prior experiences with other people, it's something I've worked hard not to do. I don't see encouraging it as helpful.
Jane
Posted by naiad on January 1, 2004, at 15:29:10
In reply to Re: I saw her today » Dinah, posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 14:56:53
Crushed,
I am in complete sympathy with you. When I first realized I was "in love" with my T, I deeply desired a sexual relationship with him. But , I have talked and talked about it with him (thank God that he has been a complete professional)and am seeing the end of that fantasy. I also realized, after reading In Session, that there was zero chance of it being a positive thing for me. I have let go of the fantasy. Give it a try.
Posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 15:32:49
In reply to Re: I saw her today, posted by naiad on January 1, 2004, at 15:29:10
how? how can i let go? how did you do it?
> Crushed,
>
> I am in complete sympathy with you. When I first realized I was "in love" with my T, I deeply desired a sexual relationship with him. But , I have talked and talked about it with him (thank God that he has been a complete professional)and am seeing the end of that fantasy. I also realized, after reading In Session, that there was zero chance of it being a positive thing for me. I have let go of the fantasy. Give it a try.
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 15:57:59
In reply to Re: transference » dragonfly25, posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 15:08:11
> > And in the broader definition Dinah used, where it is overreacting to things your therapist does based on your prior experiences with other people, it's something I've worked hard not to do. I don't see encouraging it as helpful.
>
> JaneBut Jane, the reason it's helpful is that we don't have the insight to know we do it until our therapists point it out to us. There's no need to encourage it to a greater extent than we already do it. But if we do it in real life, it's useful also to do it in therapy so that our therapists know about it.
Or at least I think that's the theory.
(And I'm using "we" merely as a global we.)
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 15:58:46
In reply to Re: transference » dragonfly25, posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 15:08:11
Posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 16:03:01
In reply to Re: transference, posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 15:57:59
>
> But Jane, the reason it's helpful is that we don't have the insight to know we do it until our therapists point it out to us. There's no need to encourage it to a greater extent than we already do it. But if we do it in real life, it's useful also to do it in therapy so that our therapists know about it.
>
> Or at least I think that's the theory.
>
> (And I'm using "we" merely as a global we.)Wouldn't it just be easier to say, when they ask why you came to therapy, "hey I'm screaming at everyone and I think I'm reacting disproportionately". And if you didn't volunteer it to ask "do you ever do this"? Save so much time and you wouldn't have to get into whether your therapist really was a jerk or you just thought she was. :)
Jane
Posted by naiad on January 1, 2004, at 16:06:52
In reply to Re: I saw her today » naiad, posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 15:32:49
I accepted, really and truly, no kdding myself, the truth that a romance is impossible. I also accepted that I HATED not getting anything back from him (no return of "love" -- I put the word in quotes because I don't think it is really love but I don't know what else to call it.)
This is not easy and for me it has added to my depression. I am grieving over the lost fantasy.
Take care and best of luck.
Posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 16:12:25
In reply to Re: I saw her today » crushedout, posted by naiad on January 1, 2004, at 16:06:52
The problem is that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. I mean, unfortunately, as we all know, Ts do sleep with clients. And it's almost always a disaster. But it happens. So I can't convince myself it's IMPOSSIBLE, although I admit it's unlikely she would do that. But the reason Dinah (and others) are so concerned is because it's NOT impossible.Right?
So, I have to decide that I don't WANT it. Because it would hurt me. Because I deserve better, etc. etc. Deciding it's impossible won't help, because I just know it's not.
I'm sorry you're more depressed. I think I know how you feel. I feel pretty sad myself.
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 16:15:27
In reply to Re: transference » Dinah, posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 16:03:01
> Wouldn't it just be easier to say, when they ask why you came to therapy, "hey I'm screaming at everyone and I think I'm reacting disproportionately". And if you didn't volunteer it to ask "do you ever do this"? Save so much time and you wouldn't have to get into whether your therapist really was a jerk or you just thought she was. :)
>
> JaneYou would be surprised how many people don't realize they're screaming at everyone. :) And wouldn't recognize it unless they saw it pointed out to them right under their nose, and even then might deny it outright. Sigh. I think my work involves people too much. I get disillusioned.
But I forgot the other reason to encourage transference. Positive transferences can encourage compliance with therapy. And, in my own therapy, the positive therapy is used to create a corrective emotional experience and a secure base (or good enough mother or whatever). But now I'm getting waaay out of my depth. :) I think I prefer to think of it as magic and not examine it too closely.
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 16:18:18
In reply to Re: I saw her today » naiad, posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 16:12:25
Ok, maybe it's not impossible to get her to sleep with you. But it is impossible for it to turn out well, or be what you want. Or so close to impossible as to make no difference.
The therapist usually gets scared or ashamed and ends up hurting the client.
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 16:35:03
In reply to Re: transference » Dinah, posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 16:03:01
Which reminds me of the sort of transference I forgot to mention. The sort where you take everything you need, and transfer all those qualities onto a poor hapless and clueless therapist. If you're lucky they don't do too much to screw up your carefully constructed illusions.
And one day hopefully you won't need this imaginary safe place anymore and you graduate from therapy.
And she lived happily ever after.
THE END
lol.
(Sorry for the silliness, but it does seem like a fairytale sometimes.)
Posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 16:42:21
In reply to Re: I saw her today » crushedout, posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 16:18:18
Yes, Dinah, that's precisely what I have to remember, and have been reminding myself for awhile. But I'm still stuck with the problem that I feel so willing to destroy my life just for a night with her. I guess I need to work on that in therapy. Why would I be willing to do that to myself? She can't possibly be worth it, but it feels to me like she is.
And, there's always that possibility of that fantasy where it does work out all perfectly, even though that never seems to happen to anyone else. I must have a really swelled head to think I'll be the exception. But I can't help but hope it's true.
> Ok, maybe it's not impossible to get her to sleep with you. But it is impossible for it to turn out well, or be what you want. Or so close to impossible as to make no difference.
>
> The therapist usually gets scared or ashamed and ends up hurting the client.
>
Posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 16:44:33
In reply to Re: I saw her today, posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 16:42:21
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 16:47:49
In reply to Re: I saw her today, posted by crushedout on January 1, 2004, at 16:42:21
Can you try altering your fantasies to be more realistic? Don's stop with the sleeping with her. And make the sleeping with her less perfect in your fantasies. Have her pass gas or be really lousy in bed (which is as likely as not you know).
On the rare occasions when i want my therapist to be my real mommy, that's what I do. And I always realize that while he makes a great therapist mommy he'd make an awful real one.
It helps me...
Posted by dragonfly25 on January 1, 2004, at 16:51:56
In reply to Re: transference » dragonfly25, posted by jane d on January 1, 2004, at 15:08:11
thanks everyone , that was helpful. i totally get it know.
dragonfly
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 2, 2004, at 1:46:12
In reply to I saw her today, posted by crushedout on December 31, 2003, at 14:50:32
> I also lent her my copy of "In Session."
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by Elle2021 on January 2, 2004, at 7:59:28
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » Elle2021, posted by dragonfly25 on January 1, 2004, at 9:39:57
"if i ever had romantic feelings for my doctor i would stop the therapy- is that a bad thing? but just b/c i would think it would interfere with MY issues that i came to him for."
It seems to me like it would interfere with the issues you came to him for, but apparently, for some it helps. If I experienced erotic transference, I would automatically try to become "Perfect," and my problems would disappear. Someone I'm attracted to can NOT know the real me, or that something might be wrong with me. So, it would shut down the theraputic process. But fortunately, I'm not attracted to my pdoc that way. But, I love it when he treats me like a daughter. It feels safe. I watched a biography (E! True Hollywood Story) on Dr. Phil, and it said that he said that he hated listening to all his patients complain. I wonder if thats what my doctor thinks about me. I hope not.
Elle
Posted by Dinah on January 2, 2004, at 8:09:38
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » dragonfly25, posted by Elle2021 on January 2, 2004, at 7:59:28
You're joking! Ugh. I don't think I'll watch him anymore (not that I have much - he doesn't come on Nickelodeon). How awful to instill shame into millions of therapy clients.
Posted by naiad on January 2, 2004, at 8:35:56
In reply to Re: OK, what do you all think of this??? » dragonfly25, posted by Elle2021 on January 2, 2004, at 7:59:28
"If I experienced erotic transference, I would automatically try to become "Perfect," and my problems would disappear."
THere is certainly that element of conflict. Get good therapy vs. get the Therapsit! Even though I tried to put my best self on display for my T because of the erotic transference, that didn't last for long. I couldn't keep up the mask.
I guess the reason I haven't terminatd is because I think I'm suppossed to be getting a benefit. So far the only one I can identify is that even though I long to have a romance with him, I have accepted that I cannot. I hate getting nothing back from him. Transferance comes in this way -- I never got the love from my mother that I wanted. My T is like her in that no matter how perfect I make myself try to be, I STLL get nothing back (at least not what I want)...the new news is that I understand on a visceral level how hurtful that is. Even though I have been aware of how I experienced my mother's parenting style as being cold and withholding, I didn't know how I felt about it. I didn't understand how painful it was. Unfortunately, having made this link has not made me feel much better about my life.
I am still in therapy 101 -- trying to figure out how to be a human. So hard.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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