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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Rod on November 21, 2003, at 2:53:39
You can't be curious and be in panic at the same time...
You can't be curious and have an OCD event at the same time...
You can't be curious and have a Major Depressive Episode at the same time...
You can't be curious and be grumbling about people, places, things, or ideas...
Curiosity is an emotion... Curiosity is the only emotion that can't be extiguished from the outside or by other people... Only you can turn off your own curiosity...
Curiosity gets stronger with practice...
Curiosity inevitably leads to discovery...
Since what we don't even know that we don't even know and can't even guess is almost everything in the universe, being curious can be our spaceship for discovery... What we need to fix ourselves with is out there somewhere if, and only if, we remain curious...
Posted by tabitha on November 21, 2003, at 3:16:14
In reply to Curiosity vs Panic, posted by Dr. Rod on November 21, 2003, at 2:53:39
Do you think that cultivating curiousity is an effective treatment for panic, OCD, major depression, and 'grumbling'? What makes you think so?
Posted by Dinah on November 21, 2003, at 8:20:10
In reply to Curiosity vs Panic, posted by Dr. Rod on November 21, 2003, at 2:53:39
Posted by DaisyM on November 21, 2003, at 15:32:18
In reply to Curiosity vs Panic, posted by Dr. Rod on November 21, 2003, at 2:53:39
I'm curious as to why I'm anxious right now!
I'm curious as to why things that happened 30 years ago make me so sad...
I'm curious as to why rechecking and redoing and resaying don't help me 5 minutes from now.
I'm curious if you've ever REALLY been depressed. I am finding that I am unbelievably curious about how I got here and how I get out -- in fact my most asked question is How did this happen? And that is NOT a rhetorical question for me.
Posted by Dr. Rod on November 21, 2003, at 21:22:12
In reply to Re: OK I'm curious..., posted by tabitha on November 21, 2003, at 3:16:14
Thank you for your response... and thank you for a little snapshot into how you think...
I am way past just thinking about this stuff... If I was only telling you stories about my thinking, I would be spewing my opinion(s)... 1900 years ago it was pointed out that, "The few control the many by opinion"... I wouldn't waste your time with my opinions...
Based on careful research that I was part of over a six year period, 7 out of 8 people can turn the corner to a permanent cure starting off being curious... Curiosity is a discovery tool, one that can't be messed with by those 50 people that you feel obligated to in your life... Timewise, this only need be a tiny part of your recovery... Curiosity will help you discover those other tools you already have in place...
Once you are in touch with your curiosity, you can suspend all opinions until you have discovered which ones are yours and which ones are being foisted on you... A 10 year old can't do this... Once you are 15 or older, your brain is finished being remapped with the advanced tools required for this trek... Your Mom couldn't have told you about this because the research is toooooo new... Piaget hinted about it 100 years ago... D'Massio locked in on it 12 years ago, but nobody knew if it was significant to mental health, or anything other than D'Massio's own work...
The "Outcome Thinking" project studied this and many other new fragments to produce 87% success with over 700 clients in the study... Our work provides you with an option not available before... I'm not selling anything nor am I providing any therapy... Think of what I am doing is showing you a treasure map and answering your questions about your quest for the treasure... Along the way, I assemble my own treasure chest of ideas... I don't repeat anything I hear here...
I do get ideas for MY curiosity to pursue... I discover a brighter flavor of what is important...
Back to your Question... Curiosity is a tool that you always have in your personal tool box...
Posted by Dr. Rod on November 21, 2003, at 21:25:14
In reply to Indeed you can. (nm) » Dr. Rod, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2003, at 8:20:10
What??? Indeed I can what???
Posted by Dr. Rod on November 21, 2003, at 21:28:09
In reply to Re: Curiosity vs Panic » Dr. Rod, posted by DaisyM on November 21, 2003, at 15:32:18
Thank you for your response... and thank you for a little snapshot into how you think...
May I address your 4 concerns???
Posted by Dinah on November 21, 2003, at 21:32:28
In reply to Re: Indeed you can. » Dinah, posted by Dr. Rod on November 21, 2003, at 21:25:14
> What??? Indeed I can what???
You said:
"You can't be curious and be in panic at the same time...
You can't be curious and have an OCD event at the same time...
You can't be curious and have a Major Depressive Episode at the same time...
You can't be curious and be grumbling about people, places, things, or ideas..."
I was challenging that assumption. It may be factual for you to say "I can't be curious and..." but you can't say that for me (or in this case "you") because it isn't true for me. So it isn't factual for you to tell me that I can't feel curious and... at the same time.
Posted by Dr. Rod on November 21, 2003, at 22:26:01
In reply to Re: Indeed you can., posted by Dinah on November 21, 2003, at 21:32:28
Thanks for your quick response...
How wrong do you think I am??? ...perhaps by a matter of degrees??? If I qualified my claim by saying 51% or more of the time, would I still be wrong???
Curiosity is only one tool needed to overcome years of misuse and abuse of the mind, if that's anything like your story... Most troubles are many layers deep... Once you peel back one layer, even nastier demons might emerge... You are not that much different than I am, or anyone else, regarding the tools at your disposal for fending off the demons... Just don't stop fending!!!
Posted by DaisyM on November 21, 2003, at 23:23:25
In reply to Re: Re: Curiosity vs Panic » DaisyM, posted by Dr. Rod on November 21, 2003, at 21:28:09
Sure...have at it. I'm always up for an intellectual debate. Just one piece of advice - watch how pompous you "sound." It negates your evidence.
And please...don't talk to me about "degrees" or 51% of right or wrong. I work in special ed - .00001% of a change is our cause for celebration. Grey is our color. Flexibility, try anything and everything is our creed.
Posted by tabitha on November 22, 2003, at 1:29:52
In reply to Re: OK I'm curious... » tabitha, posted by Dr. Rod on November 21, 2003, at 21:22:12
I'm still not clear. You were involved in some research on cultivating curiosity to overcome symptoms of panic disorder, OCD, and major depression? Where was it published?
I did a google search on 'Outcome Thinking' and I only found management consultant seminar stuff. I didn't see anything related to psychotherapy or mental illness.
Posted by Dr. Rod on November 22, 2003, at 8:02:34
In reply to Re: OK I'm curious... » Dr. Rod, posted by tabitha on November 22, 2003, at 1:29:52
Thank you for being patient with me... There were many more aspects studied than only curiosity in our project... Actually, the impact of curiosity on the project was a delightful surprise... We found it wonderful to induce curiosity instead of, lets say, inducing progress via coercion... Curiosity also fit best in our niave model (presupposition), since the respondent then went where they wanted to go; they would better own their recovery... Success in recovery would be theirs, not ours...
Regarding "Outcome Thinking", the book, "The Aesthetic View", isn't finished... The author, and my long time friend and mentor, David Peck, passed away this past May, having finished only three chapters... I make no secret that I have picked up the torch and carrying it as fast and as high as I can... Although I have the "roughs" of the first three chapters, partly out of respect and partly out of my unique perspective, I choose to honor him every chance I get, and not mess with his book...
I feel I have been given a gift by this man, by my association over the last 29 years... I feel some of the gift is relevant to the issues herein... I feel I would be a toad if I didn't want to share something given me so freely... You and I are, in a sense, together on a journey of separate discovery, but with a potential of mutually beneficial outcomes...
I'm not ignorant, just naive... Tell me when I'm wasting your time and I'll figure out how to tighten up my end...
Posted by Dr. Rod on November 22, 2003, at 10:35:51
In reply to Re: Re: Curiosity vs Panic » Dr. Rod, posted by DaisyM on November 21, 2003, at 23:23:25
I asked if I had your permission to address each of your 4 concerns in turn... I accept your response as a "yes" and will go on... I'm curious why you're so bristly in your responses...
>>>I'm curious as to why I'm anxious right now!
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You appear to have unfinished business... If you were truly in a state of anxiety, you'd be tooooooo busy reassuring yourself, at a 1000 times a minute, to be curious... However, if you were anxious about unfinished business, you could multi-task and be curious at the same time...>>>I'm curious as to why things that happened 30 years ago make me so sad...
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I'm curious; do you see what happened 30 years ago such that its so far in the past that it has a stillness with no background, and sort of grey or perhaps in black and white, and you're the only one in the picture??? Or, do you see full motion, with a background moving independently, with yourself in the foreground, and all in bright full color??? Is it the same vision in dream state???>>>I'm curious as to why rechecking and redoing and resaying don't help me 5 minutes from now.
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By age 15, the genetic brain remapping is usually complete... Research has shown a significant number of Affective Disorder folks are reporting an as-if condition... Its as if the source of memory was lost in the remapping, yet the memory remains... Also, since not all memory is connected to sight, the remaining vision has a big hole in it... The good news is that 95% of the "Updating Process" is partially processed by vision, so when you "get it", from that point on (till Alzheimer’s...lol) you will have a new and reliable source for the old memory...>>>I'm curious if you've ever REALLY been depressed. I am finding that I am unbelievably curious about how I got here and how I get out -- in fact my most asked question is How did this happen? And that is NOT a rhetorical question for me.
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I suppose if I tell you my Mom wouldn't let me be depressed, you would accuse me of being patronizing, so I won't... I have always been too busy and too curious myself to set the paralyzing "mind grind" in motion... "Mind grind" is my euphemism for what the mind is doing to a person during obsession; that 1000 laps per minute... Or, maybe I have been lucky this way...As to repairing the "how did I get here", separating "what you did" from "who you are" is the toughest first step... If you refuse to take responsibility for what happened, fine... Then separate the "who THEY were" from "what THEY did"... The "outcome" is similar...
As in the book by Karen Hornay, beware of the "Tyranny of the Shoulds" and don'ts... Our research showed that shoulds and don'ts are fine for kids, but carried on into adulthood, they tend to flip over at the darnedest times... They are rooted in obligatory thinking, which is anti-optional by nature... "Outcome Thinking" can replace obligation and obligatory thinking, with the refreshing nature that all situations can have optional "outcomes" (results) to employ... Sorta like your flexibility treatise, don't ya' think???
How'd I do???
Posted by DaisyM on November 22, 2003, at 18:54:41
In reply to Agendae » DaisyM, posted by Dr. Rod on November 22, 2003, at 10:35:51
How did you do? Not bad -- your arguments are well thought out and articulated. However,when you talk about memory remapping and memory source, you lost me a little.
Here is some of what I know:
Children 0-3 experience the world in a more complete way than adults, using all of their senses to learn. The brain takes in the external world through its system of sight, hearing, smell, touch and taste. Lost memories may be retrieved initially by stimulation of any of these senses and a particular memory may or may not have all the initial components. Is this what you mean by "the remaining vision has a big hole in it... "? Still this doesn't explain why OCD folks look for relief with repetition. It isn't a faulty memory issue -- it is an emotional balance/sense of safety issue. (I'm not OCD, BTW)I have complete memories (in color)devoid of "past time" emotions. I can get anxious, fearful, etc. about them in the here and now, but I can't "feel" what I felt then...I do feel in dreams.
Recent brain research tells us that there are sensitive developmental “windows of opportunity” especially as they relate to neural plasticity, the reciprocal phenomena whereby ,activities are incorporated into the structures of the developing brain, in both positive and negative ways, and ultimately influence development and behavior. The brain maintains some of this plasticity throughout a person’s lifetime – giving us the ability to adapt and change in response to the demands of the environment. Not all of our adaptations are beneficial (depression)or are conscious choices.
Different parts of the brain, which mediate different functions, store information (memory) that is specific to the function of that part of the brain. This allows for different types of “memory” for example, cognitive (names), motor (walking) or affect (emotions). The brain stores information in a use-dependent fashion. The more a neuro-biological system is used, the more a state (and functions associated with that state) will be built in – for example, use of a specific language, walking gait or staying in a state of fear. Because these brain systems develop in a sequential fashion, from brainstem to cortex, optimal development of the more complex systems (e.g. the cortex) requires healthy development of less complex systems (e.g. the brainstem and midbrain). Therefore, if the state-regulating parts of the brain (brainstem and midbrain) develop in a less than optimal fashion (perhaps following excessive traumatic experiences or neglect) this will impact development of all other regions of the brain. For example, if the synapeses that develop in the brain are created in response to chronic stress, or other types of abuse or neglect, especially in children who perhaps were born with a tendency to be irritable, impulsive and/or insensitive to emotions in others (underlying temperment) the result can be violent and overly aggressive child behavior. How? Research tells us that early exposure to violence and other forms of unpredictable stress can cause the brain to operate on a fast track. Such overactivity of the connections between axons and dendrites, combined with child vulnerability, can increase the risk of later problems with self-control.
I've read that there are experimental forms of therapy that have children and adults work with visualization to try and replace early "bad" memories with a replacement story - trying to stimulate brain waves and lay down an "imaginary story" as a "real" memory in the lower brain. It will be interesting to see how effective long term this works.
We know that adult depression can interfere in infant brain activity. Infants who do not receive responses to cries or smiles are deprived of the cognitive and emotional stimulation that encourages positive brain development. The longer a child has been exposed to one type of experience or environment, the less likely he or she will be able to reverse the synaptic learning that has taken place. Likewise in the area of social and emotional development parental interaction can establish secure lifelong foundations, or not. Since babies are not yet capable of conscious, long-term memory, they rely on simpler forms of memory, such as recognizing familiar faces, learning that they will get attention if they cry, or forming emotional associations with particular places or people. These kinds of memories, habitual behavior patterns that are stored at lower levels of the brain, differ from “real” conscious memories as they rarely register after a single experience. The repetitive requirement of this type of memory ability explains why babies respond so well to consistent, responsive caregiving. Or why attachment disorders result in such devastating loss of trust in adults and are so hard to repair. Infant experiences are not the only way lost of trust can get set up, of course.
So, telling me that "your mother wouldn't let you" (get depressed) is valid...and I wouldn't argue with that. However, remaining incredibly busy can not always offset the stress of continually coping, especially if you have a large number of negative things to cope with at one time.
Unfinished business is a good call: I think the unfinished business is that I was so busy being competent I didn't ever "deal with" the emotional aspects of events -- I just went on to the next event, and the next, and the next...
I still maintain though that curiosity can be simultaneously engaged in with Panic. I'll debate "shoulds" at another time!
Posted by Dr. Rod on November 23, 2003, at 3:19:51
In reply to Re: Agendae -- really long reply! » Dr. Rod, posted by DaisyM on November 22, 2003, at 18:54:41
Well, well, well... Now I know why you debated the DSM-IIIr and DSM-IV with your shrink... I still don't get why you were so bristly... When you "go left brain", you communicate eye to eye... I suspect you roll out agendae when you "go right brain"... Never the less, I trust you at your word...
Remapping: Explained symbolically by Roger Penrose... D'Massio found it significant to explain phenomena in recovery of childhood brain trauma patients... Piaget hinted about it 100 years ago as an explanation for his observations... Bandler and Grinder played with it while developing their principles of NLP...
If you accept that children store memories as feelings, and that adults store memories as pictures whose value is attached as feelings, and that a genetic clock is at work in the changeover, you can start modeling the two explanations you said I had wrong... A whole lot more than pubic hair arrives around age 12... Up to age 10, children universally store memories as feelings... After age 15, they mostly store memories as pictures that are quickly, reliably, and objectively, able to be recalled when needed... Why there is a not-clearly-defined five years depends on culture, heredity, intellect, environment, and even nutrition somewhat...
As for memory source, this pertains to cause of the value of the memory... Example: a chronically internally conflicted child may store memories haphazardly such that proper connections for remapped memories are not available sometimes... You say you are not OCD, yet you say,
>>>I'm curious as to why rechecking and redoing and resaying don't help me 5 minutes from now.
Pardon me for missing what you were referring to...
There are really nine senses... I'm currently writing an article explaining the importance of the other four... What's most important to people is the notion each sense creates an image of what it senses... Common thought is that only sight creates images --- big mistake... According to Penrose, the micro-tubins line up with dimension even in smell and taste...
Look how neatly this all unfolds... There eight cortical centers managing images for nine senses... Sight is visual, sound is auditory, touch is tactile, smell and taste are gustatory, balance is vestibular, location is propriaceptor, gut (with a mind of its own) is visceral, and wellness is the vagus nerve (gambling takes a Vegas nerve)...
The gut is comprised of the heart, the stomach, the intestines, and the diaphragm... Feelings are stored in the gut, so a value attached to a memory is stored in the contractions in the viscera (gut)... Love is an image stored in the visceral cortex, causing firing of synapses controlling heart beat and diaphragm pace, producing a giddiness... Without the pattern recognition available in the visceral cortex, we might mistake love for some other feeling...
More later ------- its 1:11am Sunnyvale time...
Posted by Dinah on November 23, 2003, at 6:56:19
In reply to This could take a while... » DaisyM, posted by Dr. Rod on November 23, 2003, at 3:19:51
Twas I who discussed DSM IIIR and DSM IV with my therapist. I certainly wasn't bristly, nor was I at all left brained at the time. It was a teasing exchange based on mutual affection.
Posted by DaisyM on November 23, 2003, at 17:32:13
In reply to This could take a while... » DaisyM, posted by Dr. Rod on November 23, 2003, at 3:19:51
Sunnyvale - Silicon Valley - that explains a lot (just kidding! :)
Brain development is a research subject of mine, especially as it relates to attachment so I enjoy the "debate."
What you say makes sense, especially in regards with what we know about emotional intelligence. I think the concept of cross-training the brain (LxR hemispheres -- see: martial arts concepts) is really interesting. It does make me wonder if this interferes with re-mapping. Do you see differences in Left Handed vs. Right handed?
Also -- where do you place a person's concept of "self" or their sexuality, within your 9 senses? (Gut makes sense yet so much of who we are is stored in the amygdala...) I have yet to see a good biologically based explanation of why prior to age 12 negative memories are "easier" to recall than positive ones.
Where are you planning on publishing your article?
Posted by DaisyM on November 23, 2003, at 17:37:04
In reply to This could take a while... » DaisyM, posted by Dr. Rod on November 23, 2003, at 3:19:51
And, where did I say you were wrong? Besides my initial reaction to being able to do two things at the same time...
Not that it matters. Research based opinions, debatable findings, shared information. It is all fun.
-D
This is the end of the thread.
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