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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DaisyM on November 10, 2003, at 21:39:30
I need a way to time keep better. I don't know what happened today -- usually I have a better feel for what time it is. I think two things, usually I can hear the University clock at the 1/2 hour and there was too much landscaping noise today.
We also went in a direction that I did not anticipate. It got heavy, I got upset and I think I tuned out. It wasn't tears (I wish!) but it was me just pouring out stuff. And then, I took a breath and he said, "we have to stop." I was shocked. He wasn't rude or anything, it was just so abrupt, I wasn't ready and I was mortified to see that we had run at least 7 or 8 minutes over.
He keeps the clocks turned away from me, on purpose. We've talked about that -- he said he doesn't want me worrying about the time. But I don't want to repeat today, and I can't keep looking at my watch, that would feel rude.
Suggestions? Should I bring it up? Let it go?
It is 21/2 hours later and I still feel shaken. Maybe it was just the session itself... whatever it is, it feels YUCKY!!!
-D
Posted by Elle2021 on November 11, 2003, at 5:36:10
In reply to Abrupt Session Ending, posted by DaisyM on November 10, 2003, at 21:39:30
I have had the same experience. My pdoc keeps his clock behind the couch so he can see it but I can't. It hurts my feelings sometimes when I want to finish talking about something and he just rushes me to finish, or cuts me off. I guess what I have to understand is that I am not his only patient. He has others that need help too. I try not to let it get to me, but sometimes it does hurt.
Elle
Posted by justyourlaugh on November 11, 2003, at 7:27:12
In reply to Re: Abrupt Session Ending » DaisyM, posted by Elle2021 on November 11, 2003, at 5:36:10
elli,,
when i first read your post i was mortified!
i read it wrong..lol..i forgot the "l" in clock...
anyway..there isnt even a clock on the side of the hospital when i go to see my sw..
sometimes when i get in the van i notice we ended about 15 minutes early?..maybe he felt it was warrented or maybe i started early?
but i doubt it...
i have a pretty good sence its " miller time" just about always...
j
Posted by lookdownfish on November 11, 2003, at 7:58:58
In reply to Abrupt Session Ending, posted by DaisyM on November 10, 2003, at 21:39:30
I totally understand how you feel. It's horrible to be cut off when you're in full flow. I would bring it up next time, just to get it off your chest. If I feel particularly annoyed or upset after a session, I usually start with that straight away next session.
By the way, its my first post on this board. I've been lurking here for a while and have found the posts here very helpful and supportive.
Posted by Poet on November 11, 2003, at 10:28:21
In reply to Abrupt Session Ending, posted by DaisyM on November 10, 2003, at 21:39:30
Daisy,
My therapist has cut me off, too, usally with a polite "I'm sorry our time is up." I know it's because she has a patient waiting, and not because I've bored her silly, but my fear of abandonment can take over.
I do glance at the clock; it's on the table next to me, but faces her. She knows I do it and once in awhile says something like, we have plenty of time left.
I think therapists learned in school to keep the tissue box near the patient and the clock facing themselves.
Try to let it go, therapists are the keepers of the clock, even though I'm always told that I am in control.
Take care.
Poet
Posted by DaisyM on November 11, 2003, at 14:18:15
In reply to Re: Abrupt Session Ending » DaisyM, posted by Poet on November 11, 2003, at 10:28:21
I'm trying to let it go but I think it is all tied into that need to be the perfect Therapy client...ok, perfect everything. I've also come up with two more reasons why I'm upset -- the context of the discussion was about me wanting to really matter to someone -- not for what I do for them, or the role I play, but for it to matter that I am a mess, and needy and hurting. And, I realized last night that I matter in therapy -- until my time is up. Ouch.
I also asked an important question yesterday that got deflected. I totally understand why he wanted to explore why I was asking it, and why right now, but it occured to me last night that he never answered it. Ugh.
Is it Friday yet?
-D
Posted by mair on November 11, 2003, at 15:30:50
In reply to Re: Abrupt Session Ending, posted by DaisyM on November 11, 2003, at 14:18:15
I think it is reasonable for you to have access to a clock. In my own therapist's office, I keep closer tabs on the time than she does. Sometimes it's just because I'm looking for an escape, and maybe your therapist would say I shouldn't be focused on time in that way. However, I also may choose not to bring something up if I know there is very little time left to discuss it. This is perfectly legitimate. Maybe your therapist might say that he/she doesn't want me to fail to bring something up on account of time running out, but if he isn't going to extend the session, you should be able to know how much time is left. I can see how it would be upsetting to be cut off abruptly. The only way to avoid this is for you to be able to monitor the time as well.
I can also see how this all may dovetail with the topic for discussion, but I think you wouldn't like an abrupt cut-off regardless of topic.
Mair
Posted by Dinah on November 11, 2003, at 16:11:19
In reply to Re: Abrupt Session Ending, posted by mair on November 11, 2003, at 15:30:50
I've missed you.
Posted by Dinah on November 11, 2003, at 16:21:29
In reply to Re: Abrupt Session Ending, posted by DaisyM on November 11, 2003, at 14:18:15
I hate the "why did you ask that" question. It always makes me feel like he's telling me I shouldn't have asked or something, while he always swears that's not what he meant. That it's just important to find out why things are important to me at any given time.
I'm dogged enough to either get my answer or know why not. :) He might have just been diverted and forgot. Remind him next week.
My fear of abandonment somehow extends to hating being dismissed at the end of session. For years and years I kept the time to the minute, and would get up to leave even if we were in the middle of talking about something. I also checked to make sure he wasn't cheating me out of time. As a sign of my increased trust in him, I'll sometimes let him dismiss me at the end of the session instead of dismissing myself first. I doubt he understands the immense significance of that.
One day not too long ago, in the middle of a heated discussion that he might have thought I was trying to escape, he told me with annoyance that it was *his* office and *he* would tell me when the session was over. lol.
But his clock is always visible, and I really don't get the significance of keeping the time a secret. I'd just check my wristwatch.
Posted by jane d on November 11, 2003, at 17:21:02
In reply to Abrupt Session Ending, posted by DaisyM on November 10, 2003, at 21:39:30
> He keeps the clocks turned away from me, on purpose. We've talked about that -- he said he doesn't want me worrying about the time. But I don't want to repeat today, and I can't keep looking at my watch, that would feel rude.
>
> Suggestions? Should I bring it up? Let it go?Daisy,
I'm glad other people have jumped in on this. I was appalled when I read your post. I can see the clock whenever I choose. It's placed where I don't have to look at it but, when I want to, I can see it by just shifting my eyes without turning my head. And it's big enough to see easily. I use this to time myself and to prepare myself when we're near the end. It never occured to me that a therapist would want to keep you from knowing the time.
My therapist has said that therapy is a collaberative process and I think she both means it and knows how to make it happen. She doesn't act like she needs to be in control all the time. Or perhaps, more accurately, she doesn't feel that giving me control causes her to lose any.
Under the circumstances I don't think looking at your watch is rude. I'd even be tempted to bring my own clock and set it up facing me. (Of course it would probably be more mature to just tell him that you want to see the clock. Period.)
Good luck.
Jane
Posted by DaisyM on November 11, 2003, at 18:59:38
In reply to Re: Abrupt Session Ending, posted by lookdownfish on November 11, 2003, at 7:58:58
Hi and welcome. Thanks for your response. I lurked for awhile too, before I jumped in. I'm interested in your name: is there a meaning?
I guess I will have to bring it up, since it is bothering me. I'm guessing, "I need at least a 5 minute warning so I can collect myself" is probably the most diplomatic way to go about it. What I really want to say is, "don't ever do that to me again! I felt like such an idiot for going over and taking too much time." But YOU KNOW if I say that we are going to have to go over again my resistance to needing him. Some weeks I'm OK with it, some not. This is a not week...
-D
Posted by DaisyM on November 11, 2003, at 19:15:44
In reply to Re: Abrupt Session Ending » DaisyM, posted by Dinah on November 11, 2003, at 16:21:29
Dinah,
I can just picture the two of you, LOL.I want to clarify that time isn't a "secret". It is just that the clock sits on a low table facing him that I can't see unless I move and actually work to look at it. I think I'll just take off my watch, I always wear one, and put it on my lap so I can see it.
This shouldn't be such a big deal, I guess.
When you repeat a question, does he get annoyed? The question I asked was a health question, so it was, I guess, kinda personal. I don't know now if I still want to really know but I want him to know that I realize that he didn't answer.
Posted by Dinah on November 11, 2003, at 20:00:58
In reply to Re: Abrupt Session Ending » Dinah, posted by DaisyM on November 11, 2003, at 19:15:44
> Dinah,
> I can just picture the two of you, LOL.
>
Yeah. :) It can be kind of amusing sometimes.> I want to clarify that time isn't a "secret". It is just that the clock sits on a low table facing him that I can't see unless I move and actually work to look at it. I think I'll just take off my watch, I always wear one, and put it on my lap so I can see it.
>
That sounds like a good plan. I wouldn't worry about looking though. You can see that most people here like to manage their sessions well enough to leave in one piece. A therapist should be able to understand that.>
> When you repeat a question, does he get annoyed? The question I asked was a health question, so it was, I guess, kinda personal. I don't know now if I still want to really know but I want him to know that I realize that he didn't answer.No, he doesn't get annoyed. Well maybe sometimes. He gets annoyed at me quite frequently really, I guess. But I feel safe enough with him not to mind. And I guess he feels comfortable enough with me to admit it sort of (he also knows I'm a human lie detector). So we both know it's ok for him to be annoyed. Ok, sometimes I forget when he's just plain angry or as he says "frustrated", with no amusement or resigned tolerance mixed in.
But mainly he's amused by my dogged determination in asking questions. And he usually thinks a while and finds some way of answering that says as much as he feels comfortable saying while being honest. (Sometimes he's a bit too honest. He said once that sometimes he gets a bit too comfortable because we've been together so long. But how can a client mind a statement like that?)
Are you concerned about his health? Do you have reason to believe he's not in good health? That would be anxiety provoking, I know. Hmmmmm...... It is a tricky subject to raise. But if you're a patient of his, you do have a personal interest in his personal business.... But still difficult... I generally don't ask personal questions directly, I guess. He's volunteers things, and I might mention that he seems tired or tense or happy or something immediate and he comments as much as he wants to.
I think if something were important to me to know, but personal to him, I might say something really neutral like "I notice you didn't answer my question about your health, and I hope I wasn't out of line in asking it." That would still let him not answer. And if I was worried about how it would impact *me* (which is, after all the most important thing - grin), I might ask he anticipated any change in his working arrangements.
Is he the sort who would get annoyed at being asked again? And is he the sort where being annoyed is a big deal, or is he pretty laid back like mine. Mine can be annoyed, amused, aggravated, fond, exasperated, sympathetic, all at once. Or at least pretty soon.
Posted by Dinah on November 11, 2003, at 20:02:49
In reply to Re: Abrupt Session Ending » Dinah, posted by DaisyM on November 11, 2003, at 19:15:44
Posted by DaisyM on November 11, 2003, at 21:56:04
In reply to Re: Abrupt Session Ending, posted by Dinah on November 11, 2003, at 20:00:58
I like the way you phrased reasking the question, so I will steal it. OK? :)
The health question was more centered on the fact that part of what I am dealing with are my own feelings around my hubby's illnesses -- and for some reason I got worried that if my Therapist had an ongoing illness, he might be having a hard time hearing me complain, worry, etc about all of this. Which I told him when he asked why I wanted to know. (We have an agreement about me trying not to take care of him, which is why I was brave enough to bring it up at all!)
I think I've only seen him annoyed once, and it wasn't really obvious. Once I made him defensive, but he immediately admitted it and took ownership of it. He is usually very open and gentle so I think it would be OK to bring it up again. The question he asked me: "how would it be for you to talk freely if you knew I had an illness?" I haven't answered that for myself yet but I also don't want to be insensitive. Do you think I'm looking for an excuse to hold back?
*sigh*. I don't think I'm worried about him leaving (as in dying). Maybe this is also a part of the discussion. Hey, I just realized that this is a great way to make it all about him and keep it away from me for awhile...insight!
Posted by Speaker on November 11, 2003, at 22:52:58
In reply to Abrupt Session Ending, posted by DaisyM on November 10, 2003, at 21:39:30
I think I would go in and ask him "Was there a reason you didn't answer my question?". Of course its their job to answer a question with a question but I find that a bit of a game so I would be direct and ask why he didn't answer you.
As for the time thing...I had the same trouble and it was just unsettling. I asked the Dr. to warn me when it was getting close on time...not to just end abruptly. If I start a new subject and we are close on time he is very good at letting me know we are close on time do I want to rush or wait until next week. I would be honest so you can get what you need. Remember you are paying a lot for it!
Posted by Dinah on November 12, 2003, at 0:52:20
In reply to Re: Abrupt Session Ending » Dinah, posted by DaisyM on November 11, 2003, at 21:56:04
Feel free to steal anything I say. I'm sure half of it was stolen from someone else anyway. :) That statement sounded rather like my therapist. He always said I'd internalize him.
So there's no particular reason to think your therapist is in ill health. Well, that makes the question less personal, don't you think? Since it's really more about what's going on in your head than in his body. I suspect my therapist would have answered, but would have also thoroughly gone over my reasons for asking. But my therapy is more supportive in nature, so I think you're not supposed to frustrate the poor fragile client unneccessarily. (grin)
Wish me luck. That's the topic of our next session. Making therapy more challenging and less supportive. I'm thinking of running away to Tahiti before Friday.
It's all so very complex, isn't it? You must have to be constantly thinking as a therapist. Evaluating each question to determine the optimal level of frustration for that particular client.
Or perhaps I give them too much credit. Maybe they're just wondering what the stock market is doing.
Posted by Elle2021 on November 12, 2003, at 1:23:05
In reply to Re: Abrupt Session Ending, posted by justyourlaugh on November 11, 2003, at 7:27:12
> elli,,
> when i first read your post i was mortified!
> i read it wrong..lol..i forgot the "l" in clock...Heheheheheheheehehehehehe!!!
Elle
Posted by lookdownfish on November 12, 2003, at 2:50:07
In reply to Re: Abrupt Session Ending » lookdownfish, posted by DaisyM on November 11, 2003, at 18:59:38
> Hi and welcome. Thanks for your response. I lurked for awhile too, before I jumped in. I'm interested in your name: is there a meaning?
No great significance, but I live near London zoo, where there is an aquarium, and they have some fish called Lookdown. They are like silver foil and they just swim around really quickly with a grim expression looking totally brainless.
You're lucky your therapist lets you run over time at all. Mine is mean as can be and just says we have to stop. even though I think she doesn't have another appointment after me. She probably has a tv program she wants to watch.
Posted by DaisyM on November 12, 2003, at 19:04:20
In reply to Re: Abrupt Session Ending » DaisyM, posted by lookdownfish on November 12, 2003, at 2:50:07
.
Posted by Deafmom on November 13, 2003, at 17:20:47
In reply to Abrupt Session Ending, posted by DaisyM on November 10, 2003, at 21:39:30
I've had similar situations where I find that my session has gone up to an entire HOUR over (2 HOURS!). I feel guilty, although my therapist doesn't eant me to feel that way. But sometimes it also really feels nice that he is interested in what we're discussing. But then the days come where he stops me and says we have to stop and I get hurt. Does he not like me as much anymore? Is he mad at me? Blah, blah, blah! It's a hard thing to overcome. Trying not to second guess the therapist but feeling so strongly that you KNOW what they're thinking. I wish I could be of more help than to just say, I've been there.
This is the end of the thread.
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