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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Morgen on August 2, 2003, at 22:19:25
In reply to Re: still haven't had one yet! » Morgen, posted by Dinah on August 2, 2003, at 9:56:19
Only two sessions left... but she offered in the past to do some phone sessions. I actually don't move for another month its just that my job is going to make it extremely inconvenient this month to do more than two sessions -- but if I really need to, I could.... I hope. We will be talking about this Monday.
Originally Monday was going to be our last session, but after how upset I was I indicated that I really needed to see her twice. I didn't say this, but I need to see her once to repair our relationship, and then a different time to say goodbye.
Posted by judy1 on August 3, 2003, at 17:17:58
In reply to Re: still haven't had one yet!, posted by Morgen on August 2, 2003, at 22:19:25
It seems like you have thought things out very carefully and I'm glad you are going to take care of your needs. Since she offered to do phone sessions with you that might be a nice transition once you move. Have you ever done a phone session with her? I really like them, I tend to be more honest on the phone (and sometimes I make rude faces since I can't be seen :-). I hope it goes well- judy
Posted by stebby on August 9, 2003, at 8:57:55
In reply to Re: A New Breakthrough in the Transference Crisis? » Morgen, posted by allisonf on July 27, 2003, at 23:45:47
It has been reaffirming to follow along on this post. I decided to begin seeing a therapist when I was really depressed. I chose a female therapist becasue I knew I would have transference problems with a male. Unfortunately, I immediately fell in love with my female therapist. It was not only unfortunate because she was completely in experienced, but she had to terminate because it was the end of her internship. I was devastated. When I discovered that she walks by my house (she lives in the same town as I) and tried to say hello, she ignored me. I was even more devasted. My psychiatrist finally convinced to see a new therapist, and now I'm in love with my new therapist (also a female). Unrequited love sucks! I finally let her know that its happening again and was relieved to find out that she has been waiting and expecting it to happen. She thinks I will only be successful working out these issues if I'm involved in a tranference thing! It is reafirming to see others experiencing the same thing, especially with a same sex therapist. I always thought I was a heterosexual and am married.
Posted by Dinah on August 10, 2003, at 14:33:54
In reply to also in love with therapist, posted by stebby on August 9, 2003, at 8:57:55
It's a strange, emotionally laden relationship. I suppose how we react to it depends more on our ways of dealing with the world than it does with the sex or attractiveness of the therapist. I tend to relate as a little girl, so I turn my therapists into providers of safety, mother figures. If someone's tendency is the common and perfectly natural one of sexualizing or romanticizing intimacy, then I suppose that a therapeutic relationship would bring that out.
If you've read many posts on this board, you've probably seen the book "In Session" recommended. I can't praise it highly enough.
And I'm glad you have a therapist with the sensitivity and professional training to handle it well. And congratulations to you for having the courage to bring it up!!
Posted by stebby on August 10, 2003, at 19:46:03
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » stebby, posted by Dinah on August 10, 2003, at 14:33:54
Thank you Dinah for your kind words. I guess I do sexualize intimacy. I also have a strong maternal attraction to her. When she has talked about her daughters, I envy them so much for having a mother like her. This whole transference thing has been so mortifying. Actually, therapy has been one mortifying experience after another. On the one hand I know rationally that transference is completely out of touch with reality, on the other hand, there is just no way to make it go away. I really hope I can somehow work through this. Has anybody ever had a tranference problem disappear? And, if so, how did it happen?
Also, thanks for the book recommendation...I just ordered it.
I also wanted to mention that I have definitely had the experience the real strong transference feelings only happening outside of session, and it just seems like a normal relationship when we are together. Calling the therapists voice mail is an interesting idea in order to bring me back to reality.
Posted by Dinah on August 10, 2003, at 20:53:43
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » Dinah, posted by stebby on August 10, 2003, at 19:46:03
I hope the transference can be worked through. Or maybe I don't. He's my safe harbor. I feel like a blind pup nestled by mom's soft belly. I want to keep that feeling more than anything. Since it's not a terribly painful transference, I haven't got a real incentive to try to end it. I feel bad, then I see him and talk to him and I feel better. He says it's the talking that helps, and that it's no magic on his part. I don't know.
The problem will be if he terminates me.
I don't really envy his kids. I figure they've got the real dad, fights over clothing and homework and curfew. I've got the therapist/mom which is better than any real one can ever be. After all, he only has to see me two hours a week.
My feelings are strongest when I'm feeling really agitated or upset. Because I know that most of the time seeing him can make me feel better. I also feel more strongly while I'm there or right after I leave. I have trouble holding on to images over time, so I use the answering machine to remind me of him. Otherwise his image dissolves between sessions. Or rather, I can take a piece of how he feels with me when I leave, but it only lasts a few days and then it's hard to reach.
However, I've heard stories of the transference being successfully worked through, so I know it's possible. I just don't try.
I gotta think that not trying isn't all that healthy though.
Let us know how it goes with the two of you actively working on it. I'd be really interested.
Posted by stebby on August 11, 2003, at 10:02:03
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » stebby, posted by Dinah on August 10, 2003, at 20:53:43
I know what you mean about not wanting to work through it. Maybe that is what you need right now and eventually you will figure out how to get what you need from a reciprocal relationship. The problem for me is the frustration of knowing it could never go beyond the office. I have this secret hope that somehow she feels the same way and would want to pursue something outside of the therapeutic environemnt. Also, its not good for my relationship with my husband to spend my time thinking about my thereapist ALL of the time. That is why I find it painful in a way. On the other hand she does make me feel so much better. I guess that's why the transference started. I have been in these transferential relationships so many times now always with people I can't have, and it always ends in pain. Just as you are despaerately afraid of him leaving, so am I. My therapist said that I could hang around as long as I needed to until I work this out. That was SO reassuring. I wonder if she knows she may never get rid of me
Have you approached this topic with your therapist? What does he say?
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 11, 2003, at 10:25:05
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » stebby, posted by Dinah on August 10, 2003, at 20:53:43
Just my opinion-I think having a strong transference- of whatever kind- is important and necessary for changes to take place in us. I have an intense and powerful one- partly loving and dependent, partly full of rage and hate, partly full of.. everything you can imagine! I don't think it's within our power to try and lessen it, or arbitrarily "work it through". My analyst has said that I need to have the most intense experience with him that I possibly can; we work on it together, and in fact talk about the moment-to-moment changes in my feelings about him a great deal of the time. I find that even harder and more frightening than recounting frightening or shameful episodes from my past. Sometimes he points out analogies to relationships in my past, but often he doesn't- we do know where they come from by now. He also sometimes reveals what his reactions are- what feelings my feelings have caused him to have.
So, I think trying to lessen or diminish a transference is not the way to go. Instead, embracing it and allowing it to happen fully opens the way for us to have new "objects" in our lives, both new "self-objects" within ourselves which are more benign than our old ones, and new outside objects, which are are also more loving and uncritical than our original parental ones were. But, for this to happen, we do need therapists who are skilled at working with transferences, and who fully understand the therapeutic potential which they have.
As to really "working it through". ask me a few years from now- I have no idea yet how that happens!
Pfinstegg
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2003, at 10:34:14
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » Dinah, posted by stebby on August 11, 2003, at 10:02:03
I guess that's where I'm really lucky. I don't want anything from him beyond the therapeutic hours. Twice a week and every once in a while when I'm upset maybe an extra. I don't know much about his non therapist self, and I don't even know if I'd like him. The little he's revealed about himself would indicate we don't have a whole lot in common.
Perhaps I'm fooling myself a bit. Perhaps on some level I hope he's a bit fond of me, but it's not really necessary. During the early years of our therapy I know he didn't much like me, but he still was a good therapist.
Once I admitted all of my feelings to him, we talked about all of this a whole lot. For a long time he was angry with me for what he thought was my demands for forever therapy. He finally figured out that I was expressing my fears, not demanding anything from him. And now at this point, he's at least temporarily capitulated. He says I can come to therapy for as long as I want to. He won't fire me. He can't rule out the possibility that he'll move or die, but short of that, he seems resigned to having me as a "lifer". Now that he's accepted that part of me, and answers with amusement instead of anger at my now occasional displays of fear of losing him, it takes up a whole lot less time in therapy. We're able to work on other things now. Perhaps he still hopes that I'll outgrow him, but he's sensitive enough not to say so or to in any way suggest that one day he'll abandon me. I guess he probably will anyway; everyone does don't they, whether or not they intend to. But I'll deal with that when it happens. Right now I'm just happy that he's quit being angry about it.
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2003, at 10:36:21
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist, posted by Pfinstegg on August 11, 2003, at 10:25:05
And as always, your view of things is so centering.
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 11, 2003, at 11:26:17
In reply to Re: I really do like your analyst. :) » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on August 11, 2003, at 10:36:21
Thank you Dinah. I know I am very lucky to have him. Hope you are feeling a lot better than the last few days. It seems to me that it would be very painful to have to cut down your twice-seekly sessions now- I hope you can avoid doing that.
One thought: I am like you- I can't take any of the SSRI's without getting completely flat and apathetic. However, when some depression returned four months after having TMS, I began Lexapro 10 mg., and I have found that it is quite different- it's a good AD, and smooths out my hopeless times, and, for me. it is a bit activating without making me more anxious than I already am. I've noticed the huge range of responses to Lexapro- from excellent to awful- on the med board, but just thought I'd mention that it's probably the best AD I've taken- I still feel like me on it. Have you considered trying it? Since you are so sensitive to meds. if you do try it, you might want to start at 5 mg.,or even 2.5. Anyway, just a thought.
Pfinstegg
Posted by Dinah on August 11, 2003, at 13:29:18
In reply to Re: I really do like your analyst. :) » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on August 11, 2003, at 11:26:17
Thank you, Pfinstegg.
I am feeling somewhat better now, because I've decided to go back into Scarlett O'Hara mode and worry about this tomorrow (and renewing that vow daily). Of course, that's what got me into this mess to begin with. But I just can't handle it all at once.
So I'm not spending money, I'm working as much as I can, and if I run out of money in my checking account, I guess I won't have a second session that week. (One session per week is paid for by funds set aside, so I don't have to worry about it dropping below that.)
It's the best I can do right now, I think.
Posted by stebby on August 11, 2003, at 19:07:26
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist, posted by Pfinstegg on August 11, 2003, at 10:25:05
Pfinstegg..an insightful message..I think you are right. I cannot stop this reaction, maybe embracing it is the way to go. God knows I have tried to stop it, I think this is one of the reasons I cut. I just find the reaction so disruptive to my life... I can't concentrate on much else, yet I live in this dual life. Know one would ever suspect that I have these issues. I guess I jsut need to be as open and honest as I can to my therapist and hope that she can deal. At this point I suspect that she can. By the way I also am on lexapro 10 mg and have found it to be better than other SSRI's as well.
Posted by Still Hurting on August 12, 2003, at 0:30:54
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis » Morgen, posted by Dinah on July 26, 2003, at 18:55:21
Well, i'm glad for you that your therapist didn't terminate you like mine's did. Shit it hurts so bad. If transference is so common, than why didn't someone warn me about it. I loved my therapist because she appeared to be everything i needed with her warm smiles and twinkling eyes. I didn't mean to embrace her the way i did. Well, hell she found out and kicked me to the curve so quick. I don't know if she was supposed to have worked me through it, but all I know is that she booted me and now all i have is a letter from her boss telling me to leave her alone or he will call the police on me. Damn, i went there to deal with drama, not to create more focking drama.
Posted by Still Hurting on August 12, 2003, at 1:02:30
In reply to A New Breakthrough in the Transference Crisis?, posted by Morgen on July 27, 2003, at 2:32:02
Morgen, i just have one question.
Are you sure that i'm not your long lost sister?
My god, you have given me so many laughs tonight as i sit and read your posts. my god. I've done everything you have done. I have found myself at 2am in the morning listening to my therapist's voice mail. I have bought a toe ring like her. I've gotten a tattoe like her's. I've put her name in the search engines to find her info. I've put her children's names in the search engines. Are you sure that we haven't watched just a bit too many mystery movies. Well it's nice to see that somebody out there is just a bit as screwed up as me. Let's try to help one another out in this. But i only have one question. Seeing that you have went to this woman for 8 years, why hasn't she worked you through this transferial stuff by now?
Posted by Dinah on August 12, 2003, at 2:45:08
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » Dinah, posted by stebby on August 11, 2003, at 10:02:03
I was thinking about what you said about your husband. My husband and I were talking about this just the other day, after I read a book that mentioned the protential problem of intimacy with the therapist replacing intimacy with other important people in your life.
I had already solved that problem by sharing with him an overview of some of what we talked about in therapy. And go into greater detail with him than with my therapist on topics that he is more familiar with than my therapist. That way he doesn't feel excluded, and I'm not in fact excluding him. I don't share those things he doesn't want to hear, but things like my relationship with my parents or what's going on in work or how my illness might be affecting him. All those things lead to late night, after my son is asleep, intimate talks that we both enjoy. And he talks about what's on his mind as well, with work and family. So I actually use the therapy to be more intimate with my husband.
Maybe if you're able to do that, it would lessen some of the intensity of your feelings for your therapist.
Posted by stebby on August 12, 2003, at 9:17:33
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis, posted by Still Hurting on August 12, 2003, at 0:30:54
Oh my gosh, how horrible!!! That is such a painful story..this is exactly why I want to be able to work through my tranference and I resist embracing it. When my first therpist called my psychiatrist to tell her that she had seen me joggig by her house, I was so ashamed. My old therapist appears to hate me or fear me...its an awful feeling when someone views you like your crazy...it pains me just to think about it. On some level I really think I can relate to the pain you are going through. Its all so screwed up...you go to a theraspist to help sort out your difficulties, and then you end up with more. You need to find someone who is capable of dealing with transference in a supportive way...or maybe at this point you are too hurt to think about going back, but it sounds like you need support now more than ever.. Its taken me a year of a new therapist to trust her and start to move beyond the old one (unfortunately, I am now in love with my new one) But, instead of fearing me, she says we're in this together and we'll work through it. Maybe that can happen for you.
Posted by stebby on August 12, 2003, at 9:27:19
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » stebby, posted by Dinah on August 12, 2003, at 2:45:08
That's a good idea about trying to bring your husband into the picture somehow. Have you actually told your husband that you are in love with your therapist? That would be such a huge step for me, not to mention that my therapist is a woman! Perhaps I could discuss this with him in terms of a strong attachment...I told him about that with my old therapist after she left, and I was in tears for days. But he never had any idea that there was a sexual attraction. I relaly think he'd have a hard time with that.
Posted by Dinah on August 12, 2003, at 9:43:32
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » Dinah, posted by stebby on August 12, 2003, at 9:27:19
I guess I never think of it being "in love" since there's no sexual or romantic overtones. He knows I'm attached to my therapist and rely on him, and see him as a mother figure. He thinks it's weird, but he's ok with it.
If it was a romantic attachment, I think I would have left long ago. It's just me, but I couldn't be open with someone I found attractive. I'd get tonguetied. And my husband probably wouldn't like that either. :)
But you could share other stuff.
Posted by Still Hurting on August 12, 2003, at 11:38:28
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis » Still Hurting, posted by stebby on August 12, 2003, at 9:17:33
Thanks for your compassion. And I'm happy for you that you found a therapist that can work with you and not against you. Truthfully, I don't think she was experienced in this kind of thing. For her, everytime i would get in her business, she'd tell me that i was crossing professional borders. She kept reminding me that we had a therapeutic relationship and that's it. And if I continued to cross borders that she'll see to it that i get another counselor. What she didn't tell me was that transference is a common thing in client/therapist relationships. She hated me being in her personal business. But my question is, seeing that they went to university for all of this, wouldn't they be better prepared to handle transference when it shows up? Therapists seem to treat us like criminals when transference manifests, wereas they need to anticipate that some of their clients will struggle with seeing them as the ideal lover/friend/parent/etc. So instead of making us feel stupid and embarrassed shouldn't they do just as your therapist is doing,and that is to help us work straight along through it and into self-actualization?
Posted by fallsfall on August 12, 2003, at 12:14:34
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis » stebby, posted by Still Hurting on August 12, 2003, at 11:38:28
I think that some "schools" deal better with transference than others. I found that my CBT therapist didn't have a clue what to do. I transferred to a Psychodynamic therapist and the transference came up, I panicked, and he knew what to do. (P.S. that felt a LOT better...)
Posted by stebby on August 12, 2003, at 15:55:33
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » stebby, posted by Dinah on August 12, 2003, at 9:43:32
Leaving is not an option...it would be too painful which I think you could understand. I like the 'working it out" option much better. Or, maybe I'll just grow out of it. How intersting it is for you to have a maternal type transference with a guy? Does your husband get jealous of your relationship with your therapist? Also, in regards to getting tonguetied,the real romantic attachment doesn't happen when I'm in the office, well, maybe a little, but its mostly when I'm on my own. Its all very confusing...
Posted by stebby on August 12, 2003, at 16:09:56
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis » stebby, posted by Still Hurting on August 12, 2003, at 11:38:28
I couldn't agree with you more. I wonder how common transference is. It seems like therapists should be more trained in it. Its awful being treated like you are a criminal by anyone, never mind by the person who is supposed to be helping you. I guess people inexperienced in transference think you are going to do something like stalking. My old therapist feared me because of it...that is countertransference. Who knows, maybe she was stalked before or something. Maybe that's why your therapist had such a strong reaction to you...she obviously has her own issues! Gotta run...
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 12, 2003, at 17:29:36
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist » Dinah, posted by stebby on August 12, 2003, at 15:55:33
Some of the things which have happened to people here because the therapists were not skilled in handling transferences are just horrible. I told my analyst about them briefly today; he thought it was fascinating that discussions like this are on the web now. He said, " I wonder how many therapists know that their patients are trying to modify or titrate their transferences because of their intuition about what the therapists can and cannot tolerate." Although he didn't say so today, I know that he believes that people get better by experiencing strong transferences of all kinds, and then, because the therapist reacts differently from people in the patient's past, a sort of "new space" is created between them, in which the patient has the chance to feel and behave in a new, healthier way. I have been having this kind of therapy for about five months, with such intense tranference feelings of all sorts coming up constantly (when I am not in his office, I can hardly believe how strong all those feelings are). They are being handled with such acceptance and skill, and I am feeling better than in many years.
I do think it is very arduous work, at times, for the therapist. Mine, who holds university teaching positions as well as having a full day of patients, takes off a week every two months! Sheer survival!
Pfinstegg
Posted by Dinah on August 12, 2003, at 19:18:03
In reply to Re: also in love with therapist, posted by Pfinstegg on August 12, 2003, at 17:29:36
Well, I'm glad your therapist is in such demand, and teaching besides. He sounds like one I wouldn't even mind leaving mine for. Except it sounds like he's gone almost as often as mine is. Mine might be gone the last week of August. Again. Sigh.
I had a very very similar conversation with my therapist today. It's amazing how, when they handle the transference well, it's so much less an issue. And it's absolutely astonishing to me that so many handle it so badly.
But my therapist is a bit exasperated because everytime I read about therapists who don't handle transference well, or other bad therapy, I get anxious with him. lol. Transference!!!
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