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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 104. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 1:32:04
Transference:
How is it possible that feelings can feel real, and yet not be real, all at the same time.
I mean, if they _feel_ real, then aren't they necessarily real, seeing as how all they are are _feelings_?
This is really feeling confusing.
Posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 1:33:45
In reply to Transference Crisis, posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 1:32:04
I don't blame you guys for getting tired of hearing about this, so I started my own thread... so I can talk to myself for awhile.
Morgenada
Posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 1:36:48
In reply to Transference Crisis, posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 1:32:04
Morgen,
Here are some interesting articles on transference and/or termination for you:
Posted by Tabitha on July 26, 2003, at 2:34:06
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis, posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 1:33:45
Hi there,
if I understand right, the feelings are real, but they're not really about the therapist, they're about someone else (is it always parents?)
I'll probably learn more by reading your article links
Posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 3:10:51
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis, posted by Tabitha on July 26, 2003, at 2:34:06
oh no... its not always parents... it can't be.
You're definition sounds right though.
But in my case, it seems that its not about a person, but a situation.... I've never felt toward my therapist as I once felt about my ex until now, when we're about to terminate our relationship. Its strange.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Posted by fallsfall on July 26, 2003, at 10:00:59
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis » Morgen, posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 1:36:48
Transference is facinating to me. At the same time it makes me feel like I have no control.
My old therapist did CBT. My transference was too much for her. I don't know if that is true for all CBT therapists, but transference really isn't their thing.
I changed to a Psychodynamic therapist and within a month and a half I have the same transference going with him. I have confidence, though, that he will be able to handle it. I just wish he wasn't going on vacation for 2 weeks.
Do you know how long your transference has been going on? Have you tried to talk very specifically about it with your therapist. I probably wasn't specific enough with my old therapist, but then again, I didn't know what was going on until the end.
I'd like to know how your stuff goes.
Posted by Dissociative Jane on July 26, 2003, at 10:30:46
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis » Morgen, posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 1:36:48
> Morgen,
>
> Here are some interesting articles on transference and/or termination for you:
>
> http://www.crisiscounseling.com/Articles/Transference.htm
>
> http://www.arespress.com/AresPages/termination.htmlDear Morgan,
Thank you so much for sharing the above posts. they are quite interesting and I have saved these to my favorite places to review again.
Posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 17:58:10
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis » Morgen, posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 1:36:48
Here is a unique perspective brought to you by Patch Adams. He deals with transference and friendship:
Posted by Dinah on July 26, 2003, at 18:55:21
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis » Morgen, posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 1:36:48
Hmmm....
http://www.crisiscounseling.com/Articles/Transference.htm
Well, I'm glad my therapist didn't have the standard of "I tend to avoid people who are "oozing" with transference potential." If all therapists did, I'd never find anyone willing to take me on. And it doesn't sound overly compassionate, so I'm not sure I'd want him as a therapist anyway. Although, I must say that at the beginning of my therapy, I don't think anyone in their right mind would have seen me as "oozing with tranference potential." Indeed, I was described as being incapable of any deeper feelings. My transference potential came as a surprise to all involved.
Thank heavens my therapist was willing to work with it, and not terminate me in disgust or fear.
Posted by Tabitha on July 26, 2003, at 22:53:52
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis, posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 17:58:10
I feel a little squirmy reading that patch adams thing. There's got to be something in between totally cold and inhuman and going so far as offering love and friendship to patients. My therp tried to describe it to me once, when we were talking about how I can interact with family members having problems, that there's a way to stay open and empathetic but without getting invaded by the other person's pain and problems. It sounded really good, but I don't think I actually know how to do that. I think that would be a better stance for a caring professional, rather than making friends with patients.
Thanks for the interesting links.
Posted by raven on July 26, 2003, at 23:24:36
In reply to Transference Crisis, posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 1:32:04
I ran into a site a while ago where various people were discussing what transference means to them. I thought it was interesting...it's pretty long. Hope it doesn't get cut off.
**************************What is at the root of this? Why are we seemingly so vulnerable in our relationship with our therapists, so obsessed with them? Why don't we just pack up and leave when the pain of it becomes intolerable or when it interferes with the rest of our lives to such an extent that we are no longer functioning properly?
The answer is transference, the powerful feelings which the client develops towards the therapist. According to Freud, transference is essential. Without it, he believed, the analysis could not succeed.
But transference is not restricted to psychoanalysis. It can occur - often to an emotionally incapacitating extent - in just about any one-to-one therapy situation: counselling, hypnoanalysis, neuro-linguistic programming or any of the other 'psy' activities. All therapists know about transference - it is covered in detail in their courses, which teaches that transference is both inevitable and essential. They could tell the client before the start of therapy what might happen, but they don’t. Transference can be extremely painful.
One of the things which makes this distress even more difficult to bear is that it is not talked about. It is one of the few remaining conversational taboos, not least because the phenomenon is so bizarre that it seems impossible to convey to someone who has not been through a similar experience. We feel that others would think we were foolish or totally mad if we tried to describe the emotional mayhem triggered off by the therapist.
Transference is one of the strangest things I have ever experienced, and I am still trying to understand it. It isn’t just an obsession with the therapist, but is also an experience of profound helplessness and hopelessness. For someone who is "in transference" , the mere thought of leaving therapy can be enough to bring on a panic attack.
Freud at first looked upon transference as an unwelcome side-effect of therapy and tried to minimise it. He thought that hypnosis caused transference, and therefore tried to avoid using it. Later he accepted transference as inevitable, and was able to incorporate it into his analytical therapy. When discussing transference, however, he talked mainly about the difficulties it introduced for the therapist and the therapy, and made hardly any reference to the suffering of the patient who was enduring the transference.
This is still true in therapy today. As the therapy continues, the patient becomes aware that their interest in the therapist is no longer an enjoyable sideline to their life. To stay in therapy feeds and maintains the obsession; to leave therapy – and to keep away from the therapist – is indescribably painful. Typically therapists will tell patients that the intensity of the transference is a sign of resistance, which means the therapy is close to finding the truth, and therefore the last thing the patient should do is to leave.
Confusion arises because it is used to refer to two different phenomena: the attribution to the therapist of characteristics of a significant person in the client's life and the state of attachment and dependency which can bind the client to the therapist. It may, I suppose, be argued that these two phenomena are one and the same but the manifestation of the second can be much more problematic and difficult to deal with. For me, the state of mind generated by therapy was, first of all, similar to infatuation but to the nth degree, so much so that I can say that it was on a different emotional plane.
The therapeutic relationship is the only occasion in which feelings for each other receive special names, "transference" and "countertransference", and that's the reason why sometimes I think it's the most neurotic relationship of all. The 'transference' hypothesis takes precisely what a patient experiences -- his feelings towards the analyst -- as the most authentic and valuable thing, and demotes them to the status of a mere fiction, to something inauthentic.
It is perfectly possible and normal to fall in love with somebody you feel understood by, cared for etc. I have seen many therapists but I have never fallen in love with any of them. If one day I do, why is that called "transference"? Such a generic name for a specific feeling. Nobody would doubt me if I said I had fallen in love with my neighbor, who is cute and talks to me for 15 minutes a day when we are opening our doors to enter our homes. But if I claim I have fallen in love with a therapist then it is transference.
...about the dynamics of client-therapist attraction, I’d like to suggest that considering it as just another instance of the standard man-woman relationship fudges the issue. The feelings generated in the client by the therapy situation are, it is true, very similar to romantic/sexual desire but often do not correspond with either the sex or the sexual orientation of the persons involved. Thus a fully heterosexual woman may find herself obsessed by another woman, and a male client may be similarly attached to a male therapist.
Unless we recognise the wholly particular nature of the client-therapist relationship we cannot begin to fathom it. Could it be, for example, that both sexual desire and the desire generated in therapy stimulate some pleasure centre in the brain? And once this stimulation starts, could it be that its cessation causes us to suffer withdrawal symptoms like those of an addict deprived of his drug?
One thing for sure: the presence of these feelings, and my candid expression of them to my analyst, has raised the stakes at risk in the process. Whatever happens, I expect to receive a serious blow to my self eventually.
They talk of having feelings about their therapists which they believe would have been generated (or were generated) in a normal social setting. However, if therapist-client relationships always followed this kind of pattern, the notion of transference would probably never have come into existence.
The point I want to emphasise is that, much more often, the therapist-client couple does not correspond to one in which this kind of attraction would normally arise. The fact that it does arise in the most unlikely circumstances is what makes me so curious about what exactly is going on. My first therapist, for example, was a dowdy, down-to-earth matronly figure in her early fifties, yet I was obsessed and besotted with her beyond all measure.
Another thing which distinguishes the therapy relationship from a romantic one is the regression which often manifests itself in the client’s behaviour - there is often a dreamlike quality to the therapy which can take over one’s whole life so that the client is living in what amounts to an altered state of consciousness.
In the therapy situation, the self-disclosure is unparalleled. Perhaps the very act of performing self-disclosure triggers the sex drive, since the way is being prepared for a relationship?
I do not share this view about the power associated with self disclosure, though I think it is unnatural to be expected to self disclose to someone who does not respond in kind.
I agree that self disclosure calls for intimacy. I think it is unnatural that I disclose myself to somebody that remains a "blank screen", or whatever one wants to call it. But I disagree some that self disclosure is necessarily tied to sexual desire. I often found it easier to disclose myself to a close friend than to a lover.
But of course self-disclosure gives some sort of pleasure. When it can be done properly, it can give a lot of pleasure.
I think it could signal a relationship of some kind, but the frustrating result is that there is no factual relationship. This frequently made me feel annoyed and confused. I think therapy is a great place to learn something about ourselves but I never could get real emotional support from it, since there is no real contact with the therapist…
Posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 23:43:36
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis, posted by raven on July 26, 2003, at 23:24:36
That was really interesting -- thanks for posting it. Did the whole thing get up? Is the websight still out there? (I couldn't find it on google).
Thanks.
Posted by Morgen on July 27, 2003, at 2:32:02
In reply to Transference Crisis, posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 1:32:04
I got so incredibly lonely tonight, I actually called to listen to my therapist's voice mail. I have NEVER done this before. I felt horrible about doing it in the first place, because it reminded me of how I used to call my ex's cell... just for a little comfort... I figured I was doing more damage by giving in to my transferential inclinations.
But I couldn't resist.
But when I did call... guess what... I _was_ comforted, but not the way I had expected -- not the way listening to my ex's voice on the phone used to comfort me (though it also upset me at the same time). I was comforted because listening to her voice made me remember who she is! Something about it clicked in my brain and made my feelings of loss subside quite a bit.
Then I remembered that even though I feel very affectionate toward her outside of session, when I'm actually sitting there with her, my feelings for her are not in the forefront. Somehow, her absence and the thoughts I process after session is where there really strong transference feelings start to come up.
I called her voicemail two more times tonight... just to remind myself of who she is... which inevitably reminds me of what a good therapist she is.
Maybe I will be able to see her again after all
Does anyone else feel the main "crush" emotions in the therapist's absence, and experience these emotions subsiding while in session? Just wondering.
Posted by Morgen on July 27, 2003, at 2:39:37
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis » Morgen, posted by fallsfall on July 26, 2003, at 10:00:59
See previous message (breakthrough), but I wanted to give a quick answer before I try to get some sleep tonight.
I had never thought about my feelings being transference before. I had never really thought of them being inappropriate either, or unreasonable. I still don't think all of my love is unreasonable. As I think I've mentioned on here before, competence in itself, let alone compassion, accountability, and caring, are all traits worthy of love. With this new breakthrough though (again, read previous post --sorry!), I am starting to wonder if I actually am able to separate out what is transference and what is her, by doing things that make me remember who I'm dealing with.
But this "transference crisis" definitely came about because of my mood. Everything is intensified a hundred notches.
I haven't talked with my therapist about this and she hasn't pushed it, though I'm sure she realizes. Personally, I'm thinking that talking about this may not be _her_ forte, but I know its certainly not mine -- so I may not have really given her a chance.
Posted by noa on July 27, 2003, at 10:38:08
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis, posted by raven on July 26, 2003, at 23:24:36
My own opinion is that even with transference, ie, transferred feelings, there is also a real, here and now, human relationship going on. It is limited by the boundaries (hopefully!) of the therapy, but it is still real. Not everything is attributable to transferred feelings. That being said, the transferred feelings phenomenon can obviously be very powerful.
That is why it is important for the therapist to guard the boundaries--and I bet it is very difficult to do this in a way that doesn't lean too far in either direction, that is firm but doesn't make us patients feel ashamed.
My first therapist was pretty much in the "blank slate" camp. He didn't really answer any questions I had about him. He would say we had to explore what it meant to me first, etc. etc. and then, often, I would feel ashamed for asking. But then he was good about addressing the shame--acknowledging that his approach might have hurt my feelings, etc. etc., so at least it wasn't crazy-making! He also did not share much about what he was thinking. Back then, I was very dependent on him, and much more needy. It is interesting--I remember noticing, later on, that his boundaries were slightly less rigid over time. He would be more forthcoming about his thoughts, for example. I think it was in part because I got better at expressing myself so he wasn't worried as much about that, and also because I wasn't as needy as I had been in the beginning, and therefore better able to keep to the boundaries. So, if he disclosed something I could handle it better. But he didn't disclose much, anyway.
I did write him some letters, during the first couple of years of therapy (I saw him for 10 years) because it was so hard for me to talk about a lot of things in person (it got easier over time). Sometimes these were pretty much right after a session when a lot of feelings came up and I couldn't articulate them, but afterward I could write them out. Other times it was about something I wanted to raise but couldn't get myself to bring up in the session. The letters broke the ice, and then I could talk about them in the session. I don't know if he would have handled it differently if I couldn't then talk about the content of the letter in the sesssion. Email wasn't around back then, so I don't know if that would have been a problem for me or not.
When I was getting ready to move away, we did a lot of reflecting on the changes over the ten years. I asked if I could have copies of the letters I had written him earlier on, and he gave them to me. I wrote him a couple of letters after I moved, and then that was it.
At one point, I was in a group with really confrontational leaders. People kept dropping out of this group--most just disappearing without doing the agreed upon number of termination sessions. It was pretty awful. It didn't feel safe. But the therapists set up this catch-22 where we felt like leaving was cowardly and shameful, too. When people started raising the issue of how harsh the leaders were, they would attribute all of it to transference--now that was crazy-making!! I ended up leaving like the rest of 'em--just dropping out, which was something I didn't think I'd do, because I felt like I should go and say goodbye to the other members. But I just felt I couldn't go back in there.
My current therapist is more easy going about disclosing things about himself--he doesn't volunteer it but he answers questions, but it's not like he talks about himself a lot or anything. He will then ask about the meaning, or why it came up for me, etc. I don't know if he would be more witholding about himself if he thought I would have difficulty staying within the boundaries, or were extremely dependent on him or something. I guess I can ask him that. The one boundary testing thing I did do early in the therapy was that I went through a period of intense curiosity about him and I drove by his house. I told him right away--the session after I drove by, and he didn't seem perturbed by it at all. He just gently tried to explore with me what I was thinking, feeling, etc.
Posted by Dinah on July 27, 2003, at 11:04:46
In reply to A New Breakthrough in the Transference Crisis?, posted by Morgen on July 27, 2003, at 2:32:02
I think that's wonderful. :) On your own you were able to sort out what she really was, and what was leftover feelings from other losses. You deserve to treat yourself for that!
It's a shame you didn't have longer to sort through these feelings, but maybe, as you said, it isn't her strong point anyway. And therapists who don't handle transference well apparently just end up doing harm if you bring it up. It quite shakes my unshakeable faith that everything should be discussed with your therapist.
And thank you, thank you, thank you, my therapist, for being who you are. You guys are rapidly shifting my transference from a maternal one to an idealizing maternal one. :)
Posted by Dinah on July 27, 2003, at 11:06:58
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis, posted by raven on July 26, 2003, at 23:24:36
Thank was very interesting. Thank you for posting it.
Posted by judy1 on July 27, 2003, at 14:15:05
In reply to A New Breakthrough in the Transference Crisis?, posted by Morgen on July 27, 2003, at 2:32:02
I have to admit that I called my ex-shrink's voice mail on numerous occasions for the very same reasons you did. You should be proud of yourself for analyzing those feelings and taking it one step further and actually discuss it with your therp in a rational manner would really help you to understand this for what it is (which I think you've already done:-). I just feel that actually talking to your therp will bring this to a healthy ending (as long as she is receptive to discussing it) and enable you to progress with someone else in the future. While I think you'll have those feelings with another therapist, I truly don't think they'll be as intense, mainly because you've made such a strong effort to understand them. take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on July 27, 2003, at 14:22:32
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis, posted by noa on July 27, 2003, at 10:38:08
I smiled when I read your post, mainly because I've e-mailed my shrink after almost every session- long intense e-mails filled with things I couldn't say during the actual session. He began to worry if I didn't write after a while:-). I saved them - maybe 200 or so- and his replies which were so Dr. Bob in brevity. But you're right they were a good jumping off point for the next session. take care, judy
Posted by raven on July 27, 2003, at 17:30:14
In reply to Re: Transference Crisis » raven, posted by Morgen on July 26, 2003, at 23:43:36
Yes, the whole message was there. Sorry, it was over a year ago and I don't still have the link.
Good uck.
Posted by Morgen on July 27, 2003, at 23:11:19
In reply to Re: A New Breakthrough in the Transference Crisis? » Morgen, posted by Dinah on July 27, 2003, at 11:04:46
oh... :(
My therapist is wonderful too.... (isn't it funny that my reaction is slightly defensive and very sad -- sad that I've only been complaining about my therapist.) But really, she is. And like I said, I may not have really given her a chance. I think if I didn't have so many reasons to expect so much from her, my dissapointment wouldn't be so horrible.
And... like you and Alisson have said, we can hurt them too. I know of one prior occassion where I did, and my emails were pretty intense. But with all of your guys' encouragement (somehow I doubt that's proper grammer but oh well), I am definitely leaning toward going in to see her. But it has to be two more appointments...... I can't do this all in just one.
Morgenada
Posted by allisonf on July 27, 2003, at 23:45:47
In reply to A New Breakthrough in the Transference Crisis?, posted by Morgen on July 27, 2003, at 2:32:02
> But when I did call... guess what... I _was_ comforted, but not the way I had expected -- not the way listening to my ex's voice on the phone used to comfort me (though it also upset me at the same time). I was comforted because listening to her voice made me remember who she is! Something about it clicked in my brain and made my feelings of loss subside quite a bit.
> I called her voicemail two more times tonight... just to remind myself of who she is... which inevitably reminds me of what a good therapist she is.
I too call my therapist's vm when I need a boost (and she's ok with that). But I think it's great that it your case, it had really positive results beyond just comfort. It sounds like you're going into the sessions (did you get two?) in a better frame of mind.> Does anyone else feel the main "crush" emotions in the therapist's absence, and experience these emotions subsiding while in session? Just wondering.
Totally. There are times I feel odd discussing "transference" issues, when the feelings aren't so strong when we're face to face. Why aren't they? In any case, this should maybe work in your favor (at least with respect to the neg feelings) when you see your therapist this week, huh? Good luck!
Posted by Dinah on July 28, 2003, at 8:31:15
In reply to Re: A New Breakthrough in the Transference Crisis? » Dinah, posted by Morgen on July 27, 2003, at 23:11:19
I'm sure she is wonderful. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I've just seen some awful stories here and elsewhere about some therapists who weren't able to deal with what appeared to me to be fairly normal transferences.
It's therapists in general that have disappointed me from time to time. But there are really great, professional ones too. I'm sure your therapist is one of them.
I wonder if the feelings not being as intense face to face as they are between sessions is perhaps an indicator of how much the feelings are transference? My feelings seem just as intense in person, although I'm aware that I have a strong maternal transference to him. I just feel as snug as a pup at its mother's belly when I'm with him.
Posted by Morgen on August 1, 2003, at 2:31:02
In reply to Re: A New Breakthrough in the Transference Crisis? » Morgen, posted by Dinah on July 28, 2003, at 8:31:15
Oh Dinah, I knew you weren't criticizing my therapist at all -- I was really just commenting on how fond I am of her... that I feel so defensive so instantly. Lately I've been worrying about her too, with all the information she has about herself online and the fact that she sees clients out of an office at her home... I read the websites someone posted much earlier about therapists getting stalked and it kind of freaks me out. Hopefully it doesn't happen much.
About your transference suggestion (that the fact of my feelings subsiding when we're face to face might indicate how much of it is transference) -- I have been thinking the same thing. My experience when I called her voicemail that first time definitely made me feel like any hatred and anger I was harboring -- feelings which suspiciously resembled how I felt about my ex -- immediately washed away. I was reminded of who she was when I heard her voice. It seems reasonable.
Of course, that's not to say that I don't totally adore her in person too. But its not the same.
Morgen
Posted by Dinah on August 1, 2003, at 8:09:54
In reply to Re: A New Breakthrough in the Transference Crisis?, posted by Morgen on August 1, 2003, at 2:31:02
Did you discuss it at all?
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