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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on July 14, 2003, at 20:21:43
In reply to can't seem to get rid of my feelings for therapist, posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2003, at 19:51:59
Knowledge rarely does help feelings. But talking frequently does. That's why we go see the darn therapists to begin with. Do you think it might be time to take the plunge and mention your feelings? Others have done it in the past, and most have found that their therapists have the professionalism and sensitivity to handle it tactfully. It's not an unusual thing, and I'm sure your therapist has dealt with it before.
You probably won't get what you think you want from him. (I certainly hope not - that would be horrendously unethical of him). But maybe you will be able to get what you need from him. An uncritical acceptance of this, like any of your other feelings for him.
It took a lot of trust and courage for me to mention my own transference to my therapist (a maternal one). But I swear that when it became less of a shameful secret, it also became less painful.
Posted by Miller on July 14, 2003, at 20:37:03
In reply to can't seem to get rid of my feelings for therapist, posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2003, at 19:51:59
Pinkeye,
Oh, did I have a crush on my therapist. I never brought it up to him. HE ASKED ME STRAIGHT OUT. I thought I would fall over and die. Although he said to "brace myself" I was horrified. However, he told me that it is absolutely natural to feel affection towards him. It is a real feeling. He said since he is the only person in my life who is honest and authentic with me, it is almost expected for me to have feelings towards him. I have also had the transference feelings of absolute rage towards him. At first, I refused to tell me I was upset. Then I refused to tell him why. I was so scared of making him mad. What if I ticked him off bad enough he didn't want to see me anymore? After he persuaded me, I let loose. I spilled every crumb if anger. His reply was to take all the mean things I said and made a "letter" to my dad, using my words. I was stunned. Everything I was angry at was clearly what I couldn't tell my dad. That was a major breakthrough. I couldn't automatically start directing my anger to my parents, but when he would tell me he was directing it where it belonged, I understood.
I do have very strong feelings for him still. He knows it. He also tells me to think of him as a flight instructor. There will be a time when I will fly on my own. I won't need him, but I will know he was there to teach me how to fly without hurting myself. I just have to trust him for now. I can't see me flying solo. I also can't see me wanting to. So far he hasn't been wrong.
:)
-Miller
Posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2003, at 20:57:52
In reply to Boy, can I relate » pinkeye, posted by Miller on July 14, 2003, at 20:37:03
I think he knows it too, since I have told him many times how much I am attached to him.
I just haven't told that I have a romantic crush on him.
The main fear I have is that I want to believe that he has the same romantic feelings towards me too. I don't want to say it and then listen to him saying that it is normal for patients to feel this way but he doesn't have any feelings towards me. That will be so much disappointing.
I want to atleast keep my hope that he feels the same way towards me :-)
And besides both of us are married anyways, so there is no point in saying it knowing myself that there is nothing beyond a therapist patient relationship that is possible and it is very unethical of me to feel this way too.
thanks for your support though. It really helps to vent your feelings to someone.
Posted by Ilene on July 15, 2003, at 11:53:10
In reply to can't seem to get rid of my feelings for therapist, posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2003, at 19:51:59
> It has been one year since I have had the crush on my therapist.. and it never seems to go off. I don't have the courage to bring it up to him either. I have read everything I can about transference but the knowledge does not help my crush. Just venting out my frustration here.
Okay, this is just a personal opinion, and I'm not trying to be hostile. Also, my issues are probably different from yours (plural).
I think transference is a good reason to never go into therapy, esp. w/ a man. Maybe my perspective is skewed, but it seems that a lot of people get into quasi-romantic relationships w/ their therapists, and transference is supposed to be a good thing. I think it just encourages dependency. And I don't want any more unrequited love in my life.
I.
Posted by pinkeye on July 15, 2003, at 15:29:43
In reply to Re: can't seem to get rid of my feelings for thera » pinkeye, posted by Ilene on July 15, 2003, at 11:53:10
Oh.. no. I would never want to go to my same sex therapist.. I don't think I would have this magical feeling with her. And I wonder if I would have improved as much as I have done with him. Most of my improvements were also because of my transference for him, out of my respect and feelings for him. I wouldn't have had this if I had a same sex therapist.
Again this is my personal opinion and might be different for different people.
Posted by Dinah on July 15, 2003, at 18:51:07
In reply to Re: Boy, can I relate, posted by pinkeye on July 14, 2003, at 20:57:52
I guess it's up to you whether the fantasy is worth more to you than the deeper intimacy in the therapist/client relationship that can come from being completely honest.
I kind of figure I've got the best part of my therapist. I don't really want more from him, or envy his wife or kids or friends. I get his undivided attention and nonjudgemental (relatively) support. The sessions focus on my needs not his. The people in his real life don't get that from him. The only downside is I have to pay.
He tells me sometimes that he isn't my mother. And that he doesn't want to be my mother. And I don't get upset at all. Because he might make a lousy real mother, but he makes a great therapist/mom. And that's more than enough for me.
Sometimes the real thing can be even better than the fantasy.
Posted by Dinah on July 15, 2003, at 23:32:44
In reply to Re: Boy, can I relate » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on July 15, 2003, at 18:51:07
>
> Sometimes the real thing can be even better than the fantasy.Hmmmm.... Qualifier. In therapy, even the real thing is a large part fantasy.....
Posted by allisonf on July 16, 2003, at 2:56:35
In reply to Same sex therapist? No No., posted by pinkeye on July 15, 2003, at 15:29:43
> Oh.. no. I would never want to go to my same sex therapist.. I don't think I would have this magical feeling with her. And I wonder if I would have improved as much as I have done with him. Most of my improvements were also because of my transference for him, out of my respect and feelings for him. I wouldn't have had this if I had a same sex therapist.
> Again this is my personal opinion and might be different for different people.
I am totally there with you pinkeye, I have been in love with my therapist for way too long. And it just won't quit, despite all the talking and analysing each situation as it happens (tho I do agree with Dinah that the open, honest exchange of feelings is better than the alternative).But I am also here to say that a same sex therapist is no safer than the opposite sex (transference works in mysterious ways...) My therapist is a woman, like me, and these feelings I have for her, romantic, erotic and otherwise, rival any infatuation I have ever had for a boy. Until recently, I've never thought of myself as anything but heterosexual, so this experience has called for some surprising sort of self redefinition...that ought to be part of therapy, but I just don't know if I can get past the shame of it to discuss. So anyway, I can really understand your discomfort discussing your romantic feelings with your therapist. I agree the end result is the better place to be, but the journey is not easy! Good luck to you!
Posted by Penny on July 16, 2003, at 9:31:11
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No. » pinkeye, posted by allisonf on July 16, 2003, at 2:56:35
I prefer a same sex therapist, as I have a lot of issues with men and don't think I could open up to one in the same way. Not that there aren't wonderful male therapists out there, I just prefer seeing a woman.
But my pdoc is a man, and we get along great. I think he's handsome and very masculine, but I'm not really attracted to him in a sexual way. I see him as a definite father figure and he's very important to me. My therapist is a mother figure and I feel an attachment to her as well. Haven't had the sexual feelings for a therapist, though I can certainly understand how it could happen. I had a chiropractor once who was about my age and was cute as a button and I was so jealous of his wife. We became 'friends' and I even went over to his house once (his wife was home) and it was cool - but I was definitely attracted to him. Couldn't help it.
Posted by pinkeye on July 16, 2003, at 14:47:31
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No. » pinkeye, posted by allisonf on July 16, 2003, at 2:56:35
This therapist-patient relationship is so pathetic in some ways. It takes a really great capacity to reveal everything about yourself to someone and not feel attracted to them. And to realize that they probably don't care as much for you as you do for them is even worse.
Posted by Penny on July 16, 2003, at 15:20:55
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No., posted by pinkeye on July 16, 2003, at 14:47:31
> This therapist-patient relationship is so pathetic in some ways. It takes a really great capacity to reveal everything about yourself to someone and not feel attracted to them. And to realize that they probably don't care as much for you as you do for them is even worse.
Well, they don't care for you in the *same way* that you care for them - after all, it is a career for them but real life for you (I'm not sure if that's what I mean exactly...)
But, they do care - or they should, if they're worth their salt. I think you can tell. My former therapist was very concerned about me, my pdoc spends a great deal of time with me and wants to know everything about what's going on with my life, and is there for me even in the middle of the night if I need him to be, and not for a fee. He actually cuts me a break with his fees. My current therapist cares enough to give me her home phone number and her cell number so I can get in touch with her if I really need to. I know she thinks about me between visits b/c she will come in with insight on something we talked about previously.
It is a hard relationship to categorize - that's what's so difficult for me. No one in my family or among my friends really understands it. They don't understand the attachment like the folks here do. But I see the therapeutic relationship as a very important one and one that can easily be abused by an unprofessional therapist.
But I think that *most* therapist (I would hope) are not in the business for money - they are in it to help people. Not that good money isn't a benefit, but they're being paid for what is probably a very emotionally draining career. I guess I see the fee as being something of a formality, to ensure that there is a professional boundary, but the caring is for free. At least, that's how I feel. I guess I see it that way because my therapists and my pdoc have gone out of their way, above and beyond, to be there for me even when I couldn't pay them the full amount or pay them right then. They certainly don't have to do that. That's one of the ways I know they do care about me.
Posted by pinkeye on July 16, 2003, at 17:14:22
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No. » pinkeye, posted by Penny on July 16, 2003, at 15:20:55
that is a nice way of looking at it. I am pretty sure that I am in love with my therapist. I don't know much about him, but he makes me feels so accepted and cared for.
Posted by allisonf on July 16, 2003, at 20:26:36
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No., posted by pinkeye on July 16, 2003, at 17:14:22
I agree with you guys that the therapy relationship is unlike any other. I am really facinated by it--I try to read everything I can about the therap. alliance, transference, etc. It seems that *most* of what's out there (with the exception of "In Session") is heavy duty psychoanalytic and not incredibly helpful. I think there is so much more research to be done on the topic--what exactly is it about the interaction that makes it work?
Also, I agree that most good therapists care or even love their clients, but in a professional way (if there is such a thing). One thing that gave me even more respect for my therapist was realizing that it must be tough for her too b/c her needs can't always be met by our relationship either. A few months ago, I was in a cranky period and just blew off therapy. Even tho she was angry and I know she wanted to express it, we spent all the follow up time talking about my feelings (as we should). But I found myself thinking what a sort of unnatural sacrifice therapists have to make & how draining that must be for them. Don't remind me... I know that I pay a healthy sum for that kind of treatment, but still...
Posted by Tabitha on July 17, 2003, at 0:48:48
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No., posted by allisonf on July 16, 2003, at 20:26:36
>>>Even tho she was angry and I know she wanted to express it, we spent all the follow up time talking about my feelings (as we should). But I found myself thinking what a sort of unnatural sacrifice therapists have to make & how draining that must be for them. <<<
no need to worry about them... they all probably have their own therapist where they go complain about us!
But back on topic, I feel so left out of this thread. I've never had romantic feelings toward my same-sex therapist. I've never felt maternal type transference either. I barely think about her as a person. Am I missing something?
Posted by allisonf on July 17, 2003, at 9:53:32
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No., posted by Tabitha on July 17, 2003, at 0:48:48
I went to my current therapist for 2 years, stopped for 2, went again for 1, stopped for 3 and have now been back for almost 2. In all that time, I never had any strong transference type feelings for her (that I noticed) until this past year & 1/2. I think the dev't of it in my case has something to do with the recent diagnosis my bpII, the bpII itself, and the more vulnerable state I've been in. I don't think it really speaks to the quality of the therapy experience (therapy was really helpful for me even in those years when I didn't have strong feelings for my therapist), but more where you are personally, why you are in therapy, etc.
Posted by Dinah on July 17, 2003, at 10:02:31
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No., posted by Tabitha on July 17, 2003, at 0:48:48
Maybe it depends on your level of development, Tabitha. Maybe you are past that transference stage. :) Or maybe it's how you view her - as a consultant maybe?
There was a part of me that just sees him as a therapist, and thinks he could easily be replaced by another one, maybe even a better one. But there's another part of me that thinks he's magic. That I feel bad and see him and feel better. Definitely a very early childhood maternal transference.
For what it's worth, I tried a couple of times to use him as an erotic fantasy. I mean, it's almost de rigeur to fall in love with your therapist, right? But it didn't work, *at all*. Yuck. It just felt icky. So erotic transference I just can't do with him - it feels too incestuous. But maybe a maternal transference is just a different way of falling in love.
Posted by BBoo on July 17, 2003, at 11:12:32
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No. » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on July 17, 2003, at 10:02:31
Hi, I can relate so well to all of you. I was SO attached to both my therapist (female) and doctor (male) that when I lost them 3 years ago, I almost died. My therapist decided to move, and I decided I couldn't live without her and tried to kill myself. I ended up in ICU. While I was there, my doctor "fired" me. I spend the next 4 weeks in the psych hospital totally devastated. I still get very upset now when I talk about it. I had been with them for over 5 years. I felt like they were the only ones who cared if I lived or died...
Posted by Penny on July 17, 2003, at 12:22:23
In reply to I can relate, posted by BBoo on July 17, 2003, at 11:12:32
Your doctor 'fired' you????
I suppose I can *sort of* see due to liability issues how it can make a doc not want to work with you anymore, but I didn't realize that one would actually stop seeing you as a patient due to a suicide attempt. As though THAT would help matters...
Oh my...
Well, I'm certainly glad you survived that ordeal. Did you find new clinicians you are happy with?
Posted by Dinah on July 18, 2003, at 8:23:20
In reply to I can relate, posted by BBoo on July 17, 2003, at 11:12:32
I can relate totally. That is my greatest fear - that my therapist will move away.
I have a recurring nightmare where I enter his office and there's another person there. He introduces her as his replacement.
I'm really sorry for the loss of your therapist and the betrayal of your doctor.
Posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 0:57:31
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No. » pinkeye, posted by allisonf on July 16, 2003, at 2:56:35
I just wanted to see if there are any follow up comments with this thread about communicating these feelings to the therapist. I can't say I'm in love with mine at all, because I really just refuse to think about it, but I can say I love her, and our upcoming termination (due to me having to move) is making it more necessary, but not easier, to talk about what I'm feeling with regard to the relationship. I have just about given up on it however.
I had never really thought about my feelings being "transference" until I realized last week that I hadn't felt this miserable since I left my ex. And though I've phrased it that I left my ex, which I did, the separation was due to a long-lasting and continual betrayal (of which I was aware and, for way too long, hoped for change) and ultimate refusal to change. Though neither of us wanted to be parted from each other, I know we both ultimately felt rejection -- my ex because I was the one to leave, and me because my ex refused to change the things that hurt me. And I'm realizing right now, for the first time, that emotionally the situation is similar to being forced to terminate due to a necessary move. And transference or no, it is true that my therapist has taken over in some ways the emotional role of my ex, which was the reason I went into therapy.
If you've had any luck talking with your therapist about your feelings, I'd love some suggestions on how to approach it. Morgen.
Posted by noa on July 24, 2003, at 6:07:30
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No. » allisonf, posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 0:57:31
Printing posts to show or read to therapists is something that a number of babblers have done when they don't know how to express something to their therapists.
Print out your post and bring it to her. I think your insight about the association you made between the feelings toward the therapist and the feelings about the break-up, is fantastic!
Posted by Dinah on July 24, 2003, at 7:42:41
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No. » allisonf, posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 0:57:31
Noa's right. I always used to print out my posts and bring them to my therapist. Now we've gotten so that I rarely feel uncomfortable telling him anything, but at one time it was very helpful.
And what I discovered was that it was *always* better to share things than to keep them to myself. It hurts so much to keep things to yourself. (Assuming you have a good, professional, therapist.)
And, as Noa said, good work on identifying the parallels in your feelings.
Posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 20:05:03
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No. » Morgen, posted by Dinah on July 24, 2003, at 7:42:41
Fine, I won’t write you, I’ll write thin air.
I will remind you that you were the one who initially offered for me to write you when I was upset. Granted, you didn’t have it in mind that I would be writing to complain about you. But turning me away when I do so points out to me that you may very well be in part the problem concerning my inability to talk with you about our relationship. You get defensive. I’ve seen it happen in the office. It probably just happened over email. There was no misunderstanding, there was nothing to misunderstand, I was just venting, again. Not only was your reason disingenuous, but you also picked one hell of a time to make me experience my first rejection from my therapist. I actually thought to myself Wednesday night, when you hadn’t answered my email, oh good… she’s helping me do what I said I wanted to do in my last email… put this whole thing away and not think about it until I’m done doing the work I need to do. Apparently, not the case.
But that’s fine. You need to take care of you and I understand that, and I can certainly understand how being angry with you over e-mails can be too burdensome, and I know you’re not getting paid for it. But my email said I was scared. It said I was concerned. It said I wanted you to be concerned. It said things are not good. It didn’t specifically say I was suicidal, but since when would I ever specifically say that. Point is, you relied on my “highly functional form of coping” that you’ve mentioned so frequently lately. You relied on it, just like everyone else does. And maybe your right, surely I’ll pull through just like I always have before – see, now I’m relying on it too. But what no one seems to realize, or perhaps seems to care, is that I might not pull through. It is actually possible for me to fail at something.
Problem is, I was absolutely unable to communicate my anger to you in person. You just eliminated my easiest mode of communication, making me believe you’d rather I not communicate at all. You get your wish. I’m not coming back, I’m not going to answer your emails, and I’m not going to go through some sort of sadistic goodbye session. And not only that, but I’m leaving with anger and pain and hatred in my heart, in part because I know I’m only hurting myself, and it’s a stupid thing to do. But somehow its just a little bit satisfying to think that at least you’ll have the knowledge that you failed me miserably, and that I’m going to hurt about this for a long time.
And I know you don’t deserve it. Somehow, I can’t force that to matter to me and change how I feel. Call it transference, because I’m sure that’s what it is, but somehow its as if you _are_ my ex. And like my ex, further contact with you is painful and unwanted. And emotionally, I am right back where I was when I sought out counseling in the first place, making me feel that the past year and more has been not only worthless, but destructive. All's unwell that ends unwell.
Posted by fallsfall on July 24, 2003, at 20:21:46
In reply to Self-indulgent rant to therp (very long), posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 20:05:03
Wow. I'm so impressed. Did you send that?
There are so many things I should want to say to my ex-therapist, but it is so intimidating to me that I can't even think what they are.
Do you feel better?
Posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 20:56:12
In reply to Re: Self-indulgent rant to therp (very long) » Morgen, posted by fallsfall on July 24, 2003, at 20:21:46
I'm ranting about a new prohibition on email communication -- that _would_ be pretty gutsy to ignore her prohibition and send that email back to her. But I'm more passive-aggressive than that. Tonight I just want to prove to her, eventually, that that was an unfortunate decision.
Morgenada
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