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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2003, at 12:38:04
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you?, posted by fuzzymind on February 4, 2003, at 3:21:49
Well, it seems like you have a good grasp of the problem. That puts you ahead of many. Have you tried CBT?
It must be frustrating to not be able to believe the more positive thoughts.
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2003, at 12:49:11
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you? » Dinah, posted by mikhail99 on February 4, 2003, at 12:21:29
Hi Mik,
I do think my family and friends would identify a certain amount of inconsistency in what I feel like doing, my work performance, stuff like that. But they always see me as Dinah and have a good idea who Dinah is. I'm grasping it bit by bit, trying to sort out mood from character, but it's not easy.
Perhaps I really need to grasp that to some extent you are what you do. I'm relatively consistent in what I do, except energy level. But I never think that what I do is really who I am. I think everyone thinks I am XXX because I do YYY, but I know I'm not really XXX at all. That's just a front I have.
Not sure if I'm making sense again.
Thanks,
Dinah
Posted by judy1 on February 4, 2003, at 13:34:46
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you? » mikhail99, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2003, at 12:49:11
I think this may come down to the dissociative disorder (I though you had? or I might be confusing you with me :-). Anyway, the shifts in identity are probably being confused with mood shifts, is that possible? take care, judy
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2003, at 14:05:26
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you? » Dinah, posted by judy1 on February 4, 2003, at 13:34:46
I'm sure that does have something to do with my identity problems. I've never been diagnosed with a dissociative disorder, but I use dissociation so much as a coping mechanism that I'm sure I fall somewhere on the spectrum. Not DID, but some dissociative disorder. I'm very, very cautious about discussing it with mental health professionals so I'm left with no real idea. Do you think that caution is justified? What has been your experience?
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on February 4, 2003, at 14:55:58
In reply to How much do your moods define you?, posted by Dinah on February 3, 2003, at 21:39:52
> I think I have trouble seeing myself consistently as the same person with different moods. I don't think "I am Dinah, and I'm not feeling terribly sociable today." or "I am Dinah, and I feel like chatting today." Instead I think "I am Dinah, a person who doesn't like to socialize." or "I am Dinah, who enjoys interaction." I don't know if this makes a whole lot of sense.
---------------------When you can't rely on your mind to be in the same state from day to day, it gets very hard to identify with any of the particular days, and mindsets. Similarly, if your face changed appearance(literally) from day to day, you wouldn't have any idea what you looked like. Without consistancy, there's nothing to identify with. It's horrible. I know that I can have a Monday where I feel apathetic and sad, then a Tuesday where I feel socialable and witty, and then a Wednesday where I feel nothing. Not being able to rely on some benchmark of mood makes it difficult to deal with people, as you've mentioned. People expect you to be roughly the same from day to day, while you know that the relatively chipper Dinah from last week's dinner party can't be summoned at will for next week's, so next week you have to pretend, which confuses things even more. Total disconnect.
I just try to identify truths and values that I know I can always stand by, and not worry about the details of my daily outlook. Given the unreliability of my own feelings, it helps to have supportive people around, because by their own daily expectations and appreciation for you, they can help you maintain a working identity.
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on February 4, 2003, at 15:06:12
In reply to How much do your moods define you?, posted by Dinah on February 3, 2003, at 21:39:52
...maybe being predictably unpredictable is a personality in itself. :)
Posted by judy1 on February 4, 2003, at 16:29:27
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you? » judy1, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2003, at 14:05:26
Personally, I sought out someone who I knew had a lot of experience, she's written 2 books about the subject. My shrink was not very open to DID (which I don't have- more DD-NOS), but since I've given him her books he has become much more open. How does your therapist feel about it? I'm assuming it has come up because of your coping mechanisms. What worries you about bringing it up? take care, judy
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2003, at 18:10:04
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you? » Dinah, posted by judy1 on February 4, 2003, at 16:29:27
My therapist, of course, knows because he's seen me in action. I blank out a lot in session. He's said I look like I'm watching angels dance in the corner of the room. :) And we've talked a lot about my use of it. He doesn't really offer many opinions, but when presseed he'll say that if he were qualified to diagnose his guess would be dd-nos because it doesn't fit any of the categories. But he adds that he's not qualified to diagnose.
I haven't really told my pdoc about it, because it doesn't seem like a medication sort of thing. Plus, there is just a lot of controversy and skepticism in the whole area, and I guess I'm afraid that people will think I'm claiming to be something I'm not, or making stuff up, or that I'm more disturbed than they thought. I'm not sure whether I'd be more afraid to be disbelieved or believed or most scary of all, misunderstood.
Plus much of the literature doesn't fit me at all, and the attitude of the "experts" scares me a bit. I really enjoyed "The Myth of Sanity" which discussed the milder dissociative experiences that more closely matched mine. My therapist agreed to read it, I offered to pay him to read it, and I gave him my copy. I haven't seen or heard anything about it, so I assume he forgot or wasn't interested.
Posted by Dinah on February 4, 2003, at 18:17:59
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you? » Dinah, posted by Eddie Sylvano on February 4, 2003, at 14:55:58
Predictably unpredictable. I like that. :) It makes me sound way more interesting than I am.
You described it much better than I did (as you often do). And I like the comparison to having your face change from day to day. It's disconcerting to sometimes be a person who can start chatting in line and bring together a whole group of people, and other times a person who can't make eye contact or put two words together coherently. Values are something that are relatively consistent, although how much I care about them may differ some with my energy level. I do need to find things like values to define myself by.
Posted by Tabitha on February 5, 2003, at 1:51:25
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you? » Eddie Sylvano, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2003, at 18:17:59
Hi Dinah, I also suffer from lack of a solid identity. It's not as mood-related as it used to be. I still have moods, but I can see the whole picture a little better. It's easier because I'm so seasonal -- I have a winter self and a summer self. Only 2 selves! With predictable seasons even! That's almost manageable.
There's been some other improvement over time too. I'm sure my therapist would take some credit for that. I wish I could explain what helped me have a better sense of self. Probably working on self-acceptance helped the most. But defining that is hard. Maybe all the time spent talking about my feelings, day to day upsets and reactions, and having the therapist help me see that I make sense. Rejecting or disconnecting from my own feelings made it hard to have a sense of self. Whether this applies to you or not, I don't know, but I just wanted to toss in the fact that therapy does seem to have helped my sense of identity.
Posted by judy1 on February 5, 2003, at 12:13:14
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you? » judy1, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2003, at 18:10:04
Just wanted to let you know I ordered the book you mentioned, the excerpts looked great.
I agree this is more of a 'psychologist' type of thing, although my pdoc has (as I mentioned) come around a bit. I have never been made to feel as though I was 'exaggerating' my symptoms, quite the contrary. My therapist does deal with people with DID, and she feels it is an extremely creative way to deal with abuse and only addresses the parts that interfere with everyday life- like SI, or missing work or showing up 200 miles away. Perhaps that is part of the why you are considering a second opinion- I think this is too huge not to address in therapy. JMHO. take care, judy
Posted by Dinah on February 5, 2003, at 16:37:41
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you? » Dinah, posted by judy1 on February 5, 2003, at 12:13:14
Hi Judy,
It really is a good book in that it describes the full range of dissociative experiences and normalizes them. And I don't really have any of the more extreme manifestations. I don't miss work or buy things or take trips without knowing. I don't have alters. I can make myself blank or foggy, but I don't actually lose time. I have done a great job of splitting off my emotional self. I think my therapist has a good, matter of fact attitude to whatever I do have, and I like that. I'm afraid that some therapists would try to expand on my actual experience. Some of the literature by "experts" is really scary. Of course, most of the literature applies to DID, not the lesser dissociative experiences.
Posted by Dinah on February 5, 2003, at 16:38:17
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you?, posted by Dinah on February 5, 2003, at 16:37:41
Posted by judy1 on February 6, 2003, at 10:54:26
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you?, posted by Dinah on February 5, 2003, at 16:37:41
If you are comfortable with how your therapist addresses your symptoms, then that is key to a productive relationship and eventual resolvement of issues. I did want to stress that although my therapist does deal with clients with DID (and actual alters) she has never suggested that is true in my case, rather she takes the actual symptom(s) I have and addresses them on 3x5 cards I get to take home :-). So there may be cases where therapists do exaggerate symptoms to fulfill criteria of DID (like they did with abuse cases in children), I'm just saying it's not true in my case. It sounds like you're content in your situation and I wish you well- judy
Posted by Dinah on February 6, 2003, at 11:54:07
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you? » Dinah, posted by judy1 on February 6, 2003, at 10:54:26
I'm sorry, Judy. I didn't mean your therapist of course. I don't know if I've read any of her books (or even who she is). And I'm sure she didn't exaggerate any of your experiences. And I have no doubt that DID exists.
It's just that I have trouble finding information that matches my experience, and since the information in the literature doesn't match my experience, it scares me a bit.
That's all I was trying to say, but said very badly.
Dinah
Posted by fuzzymind on February 6, 2003, at 15:43:53
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you? » fuzzymind, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2003, at 12:38:04
> Well, it seems like you have a good grasp of the problem. That puts you ahead of many. Have you tried CBT?
>
> It must be frustrating to not be able to believe the more positive thoughts.Yep....I got worse in therapy. My shrink was incompetent and even would yell at me for brining up I wanted a cat. "You are in no condition to take care of a cat:!! Well BS...cats are easy to take care of, and my kitty has been a friend for the past 3 years. Not suprising. THey let pedophiles become employess at preschools, I guess all walks of life have their share of incompetent morons.
ANother therapis said I was a drama queen and my depression was mild. Funny...all the different online depression tests state I am either extremely or severely depressed. What constitutes worse than mild? DO I need to go to the session with a gun pointed to my head?
I wan to get heart disease or cancer. I do have chest pains from time to time because of my obesity and sedentary lifestyle. When I get those pains, I do wish my heart would go into arrest. No one in my family gets cancer..so that one is a long shot.
Posted by noa on February 7, 2003, at 11:49:12
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you? » likelife, posted by Dinah on February 4, 2003, at 12:26:26
I haven't had time yet to read all the posts on this thread, but I will get to them.
It makes perfect sense, Dinah. Somewhere on this board, I wrote a post about my TV metaphor. I'll see if I can find it, because I don't know if I can rewrite it now.
I used to really fight to be the NOT depressed Noa, except that when I was deep in a depression, it was nearly impossible to imagine being not depressed. This also made me extremely anxious when I wasn't depressed, always on guard for depression pouncing on me when I wasn't looking.
When I started getting better in my mid-late 20's I liked to think of the depression as being a thing of the past. I didn't own it as part of me. So when it would come back, I was devastated. I remember when I saw a therapist briefly after I first moved here, in my early thirties, and she confronted me with the idea that I have had a life long depressive disorder that comes and goes in waves, but the waves never get very high, I felt so defensive--I wanted to prove to her that I was past my depression and this was just a stress reaction. But I came to see her idea as right. She was the one who prompted me to look into antidepressants. I had taken prozac before for two periods of about 10 months each. At that time, the medical thinking was that short term use worked. But since I think this therapist was right, short term use was not the right approach for a recurrent, chronic dysthymia plus major depression.
I only saw her briefly because she was working out of her house and one time I arrived maybe 5 minutes early and rang the bell and she came to the door in a towel and that kind of freaked me out, so when our contractd 10 sessions ended that was it. When I decided I wanted to go back into therapy, I found a different therapist. Anyway, the work with him focused a lot on bringing together this split in how I experience myself--depressed and not depressed, to accept both as part of who I am. Accepting the depressed part has helped to make me less hypervigilant for any little downturn. I had developed a lot of anxiety around every little down mood, and the panic would lead to more depression.
I'm still working on this. I feel like right now, although in some ways I'm functioning better than I have in recent years, in other ways, I am sort of steeped in awareness of these deeply embedded core feelings of horribleness that I used to work so hard to escape from . I still do a lot of escaping from them--mostly mind numbing idlesness--but I am also more aware of them being there, part of me. Problem is, I feel they are unchangeable. My therapist used to say they can change but now he is saying that because I feel that they are so etched onto my very being, that it isn't about changing the core feelings, but learning to somehow accept them but not let them be in control so much. He keeps reminding me that it is ok to exprience myself in different ways at different times (I am better when I am in structured settings, or able to borrow purpose and meaning from others because it is hard for me right now to be motivated just for myself --eg, I am doing well at work right now, but home life is rather stagnant).Anyway, I am glad you brought this up, because I think that mood disorders really do make it hard to have a consistent experience of one's self.
Posted by noa on February 7, 2003, at 12:02:03
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you?, posted by noa on February 7, 2003, at 11:49:12
Here is my post with the TV channel metaphor:
Posted by judy1 on February 7, 2003, at 13:22:20
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you?, posted by noa on February 7, 2003, at 12:02:03
Posted by Dinah on February 9, 2003, at 18:28:06
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you?, posted by noa on February 7, 2003, at 12:02:03
I have the additional problem of having too many channels. I'm a whole digital cable system. :)
My main problem has never been depression. I think I've had a couple of episodes of major depression, the rest of the time I'm not quite sure what is wrong. I vote for messed up electrical circuitry in my brain.
So each of my gazillion mood states seems to have its own opinions, motivation level, energy level, even memories. When I'm happy I remember happy things. The rest of the time I don't so much. I guess there are values that I hold to no matter what, and actions that I do, no matter what. I need to hold on to those things to define myself.
Posted by noa on February 10, 2003, at 17:36:08
In reply to Re: Yes, that is a great metaphor. Thanks! » noa, posted by Dinah on February 9, 2003, at 18:28:06
I think another aspect of the varied mood state question that you posed is control--the question was worded as "how much do your moods define you?" which puts the "you" in the passive part of the sentence, and the "moods" in the control seat. What I'm dealing with now a lot in therapy is how much this feeling of not having control over the moods has made me feel less and less in control of everything in my life. And I think this applies whether it is depression or whatever different mood states.
I think you are saying that not only do you have distinct mood states with distinct perceptions, etc., but that there are so many and sometimes they get all scrambled up. Do they overlap sometimes?
BTW, my therapist and I have been using the word "dissociative" or "dissociative-like" (I introduced the idea) to describe my experience of different mood states, even though we know it is not true dissociation. But the mood states really transport me, in a way that is kind of like dissociation(I think). I don't lose orientation to person, place or time, I know who I am, etc. etc. but it seems to me to be a mild form of dissociation, or at least some kind of related phenomenon.
Also, I do seem to space out about time a lot, when lacking any structure like work, etc., not necessarily when in a very strong mood state, but more likely when anxious and avoidant, but I don't think this is true dissociation either--maybe it would be better to call my loss of time due to self-numbing avoidant behavior(often with help from computer games) "pseudo-dissociation".
A young relative of mine seems to have what I call an associative/dissociative regulation problem. Sometimes she spaces out a lot and gets into her own dream world, seeming to lose touch with those of us around her, but she also has too much association going on sometimes--her mind is always leaping from one idea to other interesting-but-very tangential ideas. It is fascinating to see how she thinks, but also annoying because often she can't stay on topic and have a focused conversation. So it is not just that she DISsociates but also that she OVER-associates, as well, which makes me think there is some kind of regulation ability that most people have and she doesn't have enough of, to kind of balance the system out.
Posted by Bittersweet on February 12, 2003, at 21:40:57
In reply to How much do your moods define you?, posted by Dinah on February 3, 2003, at 21:39:52
Holy shnitzel, I thought it was just my personality the whole time :o)
I am a 34 year old female. I have dealt with depression and SAD as long as I can remember. I believe I am Bipolar, and have now just began looking for answers and treatment.Now this above mentioned difficulty exists whether I am "up" or "down" (mostly down); I can be happy-go-lucky one day with a person, and the next day get "stuck", or as said in an above post, barely put 2 words together or even look at that same person in the eye. I wonder, if not worry, what they think of me. Are they as aware of this as I?
My biggest challenge is not just feeling/acting differently from day to day, but feeling/being a different person depending apon who I'm (dealing) with as well. On an average day I could be a "shrinking violet" with one person, usually an authority type, while on the other hand be quite outgoing and even aggressive with someone else. What the f^ck is that all about?
If I could rely on identifying with my values that would be great, but my moral fibre seems to be made of wax...gotta watch out for those hot summer days!
Or could it just be my dual Gemini nature? LOL...
Posted by Bittersweet on February 12, 2003, at 23:02:56
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you? » Dinah, posted by Bittersweet on February 12, 2003, at 21:40:57
sorry, one more thing I forgot to mention: Someone here, I think it was noa, said something about "losing time". This happens to me quite frequently, usually when I shop. I mean, like I can go into the Safeway to buy a loaf of bread and a pack of smokes or some such thing, and will come out an hour later with just those items, maybe 1 or 2 extras. This happens even when I'm in a hurry! You mention this "dissociation", which I know nothing of. Also, my memory is is not too good, and I have days where I am very confused, like one minute I believe it is say, Monday, then the next moment am thinking otherwise and set out to do a Tuesday chore. Is this all part of depression of one kind or another, or something else?
It is hard for me to talk to a doctor, as I lose my thoughts, or he seems to not listen and be in a hurry. I figure if I really do my homework it will make it easier to get my concerns across. I am relatively bright on a good day, but those days tend to be getting fewer and further between.
Thank you to all who take the time to read my gibberish and offer help.
Posted by Dinah on February 12, 2003, at 23:57:45
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you? » Bittersweet, posted by Bittersweet on February 12, 2003, at 23:02:56
Do you have a therapist? A therapist can help you sort out all of these things. I don't know about your psychiatrist, but mine is strictly meds.
Dissociation is pretty hard to pin down. It can mean a whole lot of different things. For a general overview there is the book by Marlene Steinberg: "THE STRANGER IN THE MIRROR: Dissociation: The Hidden Epidemic". It gives a pretty good description of derealization, depersonalization, as well as time loss and amnesia. Anxiety is often accompanied by dissociative symptoms. Nature's protection I guess.I don't have time loss or amnesia, but I use dissociation as a coping tool a lot and it can interfere with life. It can also have an effect on seeing yourself as a continuous whole person.
You might want to check it out.
Posted by fuzzymind on February 13, 2003, at 9:56:24
In reply to Re: How much do your moods define you? » Bittersweet, posted by Bittersweet on February 12, 2003, at 23:02:56
> sorry, one more thing I forgot to mention: Someone here, I think it was noa, said something about "losing time".
Unfortunately, too many believe lost time means they were abducted by aliens. Go look at the recent episode of Penn and Teller's BS on SHowtime
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