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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 164. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 6, 2002, at 7:52:52
[Posted by Stamper on November 5, 2002, at 21:39:38]
> Have any of you fallen in love with your therapist or have the therapist fall in love with you? Apparently there is a lot of this going on but never heard of it before until I read about it on another post. I'm on effexor-300 mg and wellbutrin-400 mg. Have been lurking here for some time.
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2002, at 10:13:05
In reply to Love with therapist « Stamper, posted by Dr. Bob on November 6, 2002, at 7:52:52
I think it's pretty common to develop romantic feelings for your therapist. Therapy mimics a romantic relationship in some ways and we're probably pre-programmed to respond.
Or there are other ways of responding to those feelings. My transference is a maternal one, and I tend to see my therapist as one giant breast. (Which disconcerts him no end when I admit it.)
I highly recommend the book "In Session: The Bond Between Women and Their Therapists" by Deborah Lott. It discusses all sorts of attachments.
Now therapists falling in love with their patients (and letting them know)? I don't know how common it is, but I do know it's not right. If a therapist has feelings for a patient, positive or negative, he/she should deal with them himself. If they get in the way of the therapeutic relationship, a proper referral should be made. Therapists might fall in love with their patients, but they shouldn't act on it.
Posted by judy1 on November 9, 2002, at 18:50:39
In reply to Love with therapist « Stamper, posted by Dr. Bob on November 6, 2002, at 7:52:52
I've had a mutual relationship with a former shrink, which is a huge boundary crossing and one that took a very long time to work through. Dinah's book suggestion is excellent, it will help you understand transference and therapy. I don't know how widespread it is, but I do know that when it is acted out by the therapist, it is probably the worst possible scenario that can happen to a client. Are you just referring to feelings? Are they yours or are they coming from your therapist? take care, judy
Posted by Stamper on November 11, 2002, at 21:25:33
In reply to Re: Love with therapist « Stamper, posted by judy1 on November 9, 2002, at 18:50:39
I was reading past posts from someone whose therapist had told her he was in love with her and that quite frankly was the first time I had ever thought of that. I can see why people would develop feelings for their therapists, you tell them pretty much everything. My therapist is very effective and has helped a lot, but honestly is not physically attractive to me at all. I do get an uncomfortable feeling when he tells me stuff about his family and vacations etc. I'm not sure why. Maybe I am having a hard time seeing him as having a life of his own. I'm going to get the book and read about it. My neighbor is a psychiatric nurse and she also said it was an excellent text. Thanks to both of you for the suggestions.
> I've had a mutual relationship with a former shrink, which is a huge boundary crossing and one that took a very long time to work through. Dinah's book suggestion is excellent, it will help you understand transference and therapy. I don't know how widespread it is, but I do know that when it is acted out by the therapist, it is probably the worst possible scenario that can happen to a client. Are you just referring to feelings? Are they yours or are they coming from your therapist? take care, judy
Posted by judy1 on November 12, 2002, at 11:39:48
In reply to Re: Love with therapist « Stamper, posted by Stamper on November 11, 2002, at 21:25:33
If you are feeling uncomfortable, then trust your instinct that something is wrong. Many therapists talk about their personal lives in an effort to make their clients feel at ease (I've written recently about mine when he spent 50 minutes of an hour session doing that, but I was more ticked about the waste of a session- not what he was telling me), but that's a far cry from having a therapist tell you he/she loves you and tries for physical intimacy. If you genuinely feel he has helped you in the past, then either write a letter or tell him face-to-face that you are uncomfortable with his revealing his personal life. He should respect that and stop- if not then you need to move on.
Take care, judy
Posted by Stamper on November 12, 2002, at 11:58:56
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » Stamper, posted by judy1 on November 12, 2002, at 11:39:48
Do you mean you wrote a letter to your therapist? Or journaled? Did you give him the letter? Mine has never indicated anything of a physical nature at all. I'm not sure why just normal conversation about family etc would bother me? Maybe the book will help me figure that out? If you don't mine my asking, how did you handle the relationship with your shrink? I think I would be blown away by that. But part of my problem is ever thinking that anyone would be attracted to me anyway. Definitely low self-esteem.
Posted by judy1 on November 13, 2002, at 12:31:19
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by Stamper on November 12, 2002, at 11:58:56
re: letter- do you mean the offending shrink? I often write my shrinks or therapists because I have a lot of difficulty with confrontation, and for me it helps to get the problem out by writing it and then it's even better when I actually give it to my therapist because it opens discussion of the problem. As far as the relationshop with my ex-shrink, it's been over 3 years but I still have a lot of residual problems with trust in particular (with male shrinks). The APA has clear guidelines about physical relationships with patients, I did not want to press charges but I did need to work things out so a mediator (another shrink) was brought in for as long as I needed it. I wrote him letters, I was hysterical for a long time, and actually attempted suicide. It was not a great time. Hope things work out for you- judy
Posted by becca on June 29, 2003, at 11:35:12
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » Stamper, posted by judy1 on November 13, 2002, at 12:31:19
This is 8 months late but just saw your thread about being in love with your therapist. I' m in the midst of working this out with mine and have learned a few things about boundaries:
--In traditional, strict psychoanalysis the therapist is never supposed to reveal anything about their life outside of session. I had a psychiatrist stop wearing her wedding ring when i noticed it (and wouldn't confirm if she was married) and also she didn't tell me she was pregnant until it was quite obvious. I thought she was a bit too cautious but the point was that the therapist is supposed to be a "blank page" for you. You imagine him/her to be whatever you imagine and the content of those ideas reveals your own issues. So if you assume your shrink is an warm, intellectual type that sits at home and reads by the fire that would reveal something different (about you) than if you assumed he went off in his porsche to play golf each afternoon. probably the content of your fantasies about the shrink reveal behaviors or values from your life that can be explored in therapy.--Falling in love is not only incredibly common but often an explicit goal of therapy. Or rather, transference and projection is an explicit goal. Transference is when you have feelings for your shrink that you have had, or still have, for other people. And projection is when you think your shrink has feelings or traits that actually belong to you or someone else. So when you fall in love with your shrink [who is supposed to be a blank page] you are falling in love with all the traits you are pinning on him that are actually related to other people in your life.
Not to mention the fact that it's easy to idealize someone who listens empathetically to your deepest issues and vulnerabilities.Finally, falling in love is not the only outcome. People often have child/parent feelings for their shrink rather than sexual/romantic ones. Or they can have entirely negative feelings, putting the shrink in the role of someone who hurt or abused them. This is problematic because the client will often quit therapy in anger or disgust without realizing that the feelings are not based on the therapist but on other people. The therapist, after all, is just a blank page. You're not supposed to know enough about him/her to really make judgements or know with certainty what they are "really" like.
Different therapists have different ideas about how much to reveal about themselves. Frustrating as it is not to know much about your therapist I've seen the trouble that knowing too much can cause. For example I was sure my therapist was gay and when I discovered he was living with a long-term female partner I obsessed about it constantly and felt very inhibited about discussing sexual things. and then he became an object of sexual fantasy that never would have happened if I continued to believe he was gay. Gay was safe and off-limits for me . In the end perhaps this was all good as I've worked on LOT of assumptions and relationship stuff. But I think it probably would have been better if I had not found out by accident when I did.
Finally the bottom line: therapists are supposed to never have any kind of personal or social relationship with their clients, even after therapy ends. A sexual relationship during therapy is the worst-case scenario but friendships and business relationships are also taboo. My therapist has explained patiently to me that he (and all therapists) must be utterly impervious to their patients atempts at flirtation, seduction, sympathy-seeking, friendship gestures, etc. Not out of coldness--your shrink can still be warm and caring--but to maintain the safe structure of sessions and the role boundaries. So while he and I talk about my feelings all the time he knows that the person I love is not really him {he's a blank page]. We look at what "love" means to me and the traits that I love and would seek in a partner, or perhaps less healthy patterns in the way I see lovers.
if he slept with me it would be mighty, mighty, messed up. But the feeling of love is not a bad thing in and of itself and I've found it really nice to be able to really hash out my emotions without having to worry about losing my relatinship with him or keep him interested. Because it's NOT a romantic relationship, but a professional relationship where you can feel safe expressing romantic ( or any) feelings.
Posted by Dinah on July 1, 2003, at 9:16:27
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by becca on June 29, 2003, at 11:35:12
Did you get angry about the wedding ring and pregnancy issues? I mean teh pregnancy affected you since she presumably took maternity leave. And if you did, did she call your anger transference?
I'm not sure I believe in a completely blank slate. Even her actions in taking off the ring spoke volumes about her, and you could legitmately react to that without it being transference, don't you think?
Posted by Penny on July 1, 2003, at 9:40:04
In reply to Re: Love with therapist » becca, posted by Dinah on July 1, 2003, at 9:16:27
> Did you get angry about the wedding ring and pregnancy issues? I mean teh pregnancy affected you since she presumably took maternity leave. And if you did, did she call your anger transference?
>
> I'm not sure I believe in a completely blank slate. Even her actions in taking off the ring spoke volumes about her, and you could legitmately react to that without it being transference, don't you think?
>
>
I agree. Having been through a pregnancy/maternity leave with my former therapist, it's impossible for that person to remain a blank slate, but that was good in my case b/c it allowed me to work through many of my issues regarding being jealous of her and jealous of her baby (I had the mother/child scenario). Brought up a lot of stuff that wouldn't have been so otherwise.My therapist now is much more forthcoming with information than my former therapist. And I really like that. I can see how it could be a problem knowing too much information, but knowing what I know about her makes it easier for me to connect with her. For example, we share a love of animals, which means a lot to me, as well as a love of books. I suppose if that weren't the case, it could be detrimental, but in this case it works.
I guess I can see both sides of the situation, the pros and cons of the 'blank slate'. I prefer knowing a little more about my therapist.
Posted by bookgurl99 on July 7, 2003, at 22:49:14
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by becca on June 29, 2003, at 11:35:12
to be honest, when i was developing a bit of a crush on my therapist, she started revealing more about her personal life to me.
once she revealed more about herself, it made me see that though i may have crush feelings, they are on this idealized superhuman person instead of who she really is. i realized that -- despite her enormous skill as a therapist, and her capacity to empower me in my own healing -- in real life she fights with _her_ girlfriend, struggles with health issues, and takes psych meds of her own.
now i do still feel somewhat affectionate towards her, but not as 'romantic.' to be honest, her revelations have helped me cut her some slack -- like when at our last session she was late -- and i've saved my romantic feelings for my real girlfriend.
Posted by starlight on July 10, 2003, at 16:15:53
In reply to Re: therapist revelations, posted by bookgurl99 on July 7, 2003, at 22:49:14
I like my pdoc and think he's good. But I don't like the way he comes across. It was worse in the beginning. I'm smart enough to realize and respect boundaries and don't like that there's no personal connection. Sometimes he's so blank that I sit there and just wonder if he thinks I'm crazy. I know he doesn't - so fine, I guess it brings up my insecurity. Great! Lovely! Just what I need in the middle of the day. I would appreciate some more warmth rather than the cold clinician approach.
I've had it with psychologists. The last one I had was milktoasty and I felt like I was out of his league. The one I had before that I liked but he ended up having to move to DC because of his military status. I've been through too many to keep going through the tiring aspect of going through the history and digging things up again and again.
So my pdoc will occaisionally scratch beneath the surface for 2 minutes, but that's all I get in the way of psychotherapy, which is too bad, if I had a full hour I feel like I could maybe make more strides, but oh well, screw it.
starlight
Posted by bookgurl99 on July 10, 2003, at 22:58:58
In reply to Re: therapist revelations, posted by starlight on July 10, 2003, at 16:15:53
starlight,
could you see someone _just_ for therapy, not just med therapy?
for example, i see a certified independent social worker in her private practice for therapy, and a psychiatrist in another therapy group for med management. the therapist spends a whole hour getting beneath the surface with me, while the psych and i talk mostly about symptoms and side effects.
then i go to a 3rd MD for my other meds, and somehow try to get all 3 of them to make phone calls to each other re: my health if i need them to.
books
Posted by starlight on July 11, 2003, at 14:32:23
In reply to Re: therapist revelations, posted by bookgurl99 on July 10, 2003, at 22:58:58
That's what I was doing before. I had an hour with a psychologist, and then saw my psychiatrist for med managment. But the psychologists kept changing and I don't want to go through the whole thing again. So at this point I'll just suffice for the 2 minutes of scratching beneath the surface. It's too energy taxing to spill your beans and watch them leave.
starlight
Posted by Eggy on July 16, 2003, at 0:39:49
In reply to Re: Love with therapist, posted by becca on June 29, 2003, at 11:35:12
Transference...I do this way to often. I try not to but, I do.My poor therapist. He always says in a quiet reserved voice "remember I am not your father". I think he has to remind me as he is afraid I may kill him or something. But sometimes I feel as if I do love him. Maybe I do? Not sexually. But fatherly, yes. He is what I would want my dad to be like. I would like him to be my father. I kills me to think that someday I will not need him and then our relationship will be over. But hopefully when I no longer need his help I will no longer have or feel the need for him to be the father I never had.
Posted by Newcomer on August 21, 2003, at 14:27:33
In reply to Re: therapist revelations, posted by bookgurl99 on July 10, 2003, at 22:58:58
It's good to get other people's first-hand views on transference. I had therapy for the first time a while back and had a whole transference / regression thing going on with my therapist. I spent a lot of time imagining I was a small child and he was my dad. I just wanted to snuggle up to him to the point that it was overwhelming.
I didn't tell him partly because I didn't understand what was going on and partly because I was acutely embarrassed. I thought about him all the time and after three months I stopped the therapy because I could barely function - I felt like a small child the whole time and I wanted him to look after me - not a good state to be in when you run a business.
When I stopped going it was like cutting off my arm. It took nearly six months for me to stop obsessing about him. I used to park near his house at night-time and sit there in the dark just to feel close to him.
I feel ok now but the therapy stirred up a lot of old feelings and left everything unresolved. After that it seemed I needed therapy still but I couldn't trust myself in a face-to-face scenario so I got some on-line help with a woman therapist. She said it might help to go back to him and talk about it with a view to working through it, but I'm wary about going through the same thing.
The book by Deborah Lott sounds interesting, think I'll get that.
Posted by fallsfall on August 21, 2003, at 14:50:20
In reply to Re: therapist revelations, posted by Newcomer on August 21, 2003, at 14:27:33
That sounds like it was difficult. I would think that you would also have the option of seeing a different therapist to work it through. I had a painful transference, and my therapist didn't seem to understand what was happening. I switched therapists, and very quickly (6 weeks and again today - 2 months) I had the same transference with him. The difference is that he is a Psychodynamic therapist - they "do" transference, where as my old therapist was CBT. I'm not saying CBT therapists can't do transference, but it is not their focus like it is for the Psychodynamic therapists. What kind of therapy was your therapist doing?
My only other comment is that they can't help if they don't know what is going on. Somehow (and this can be really hard) you have to find a way to trust them.
Good luck. This stuff is really hard.
Posted by Penny on August 21, 2003, at 15:18:56
In reply to Re: therapist revelations, posted by Newcomer on August 21, 2003, at 14:27:33
I agree with fallsfall - they can't help if they don't know what's going on. If there's any way you can resolve the issue with him, it would probably be helpful to you. I had major transference issues (the child-mother kind) with my former therapist, especially centered around her pregnancy. I'm still dealing with the pain of it, but she was helpful when she knew what was going on, and my new therapist is also very helpful. For me, though, the transference with my new therapist is different. Still powerful, but different. Perhaps because she is more accessible to me than my former therapist. I guess that could be a good thing or a bad thing.
The psychoanalysis idea FF had sounds like something that might be helpful to you, since transference is something that they specialize in. Speaking for myself, working through the transference is the most vital part of my therapy and has helped me grow the most as a person.
I hope you can find some peace and wish you all the best.
Take care.
P
Posted by Newcomer on August 21, 2003, at 18:04:45
In reply to Re: therapist revelations » Newcomer, posted by fallsfall on August 21, 2003, at 14:50:20
Thank you, what you write makes sense. I could go to someone else but I'm wondering if it's the best thing to flit around. Psychodynamic sounds good though, I don't actually know what my last therapist specialised in, I don't think wasn't CBT.
I think he was trying to encourage transference because he would say caring things like "If I was your dad I wouldn't have treated you like that." and "If you were my daughter..." etc. With that in mind, I should have trusted him and tried to discuss my feelings. I think he would probably have handled it in the right way, he was experienced and professional, I just couldn't manage it though.
Do you think I should see another male therapist or try a woman? I have a big father fixation / complex - whatever the term is - and have had since I was a child. It would be beneficial to break out of it although I don't really understand how therapy can solve it.
It's good talking with you.
Gail
Posted by Newcomer on August 21, 2003, at 18:32:14
In reply to Re: therapist revelations » Newcomer, posted by Penny on August 21, 2003, at 15:18:56
Thanks Penny,
I'm glad to know that you've grown from persevering with your transference. How does someone like me work through it? I guess I didn't know how to deal with it, so my response was to not deal with it.
I can understand how you felt jealous of your therapist's new baby. I found it hard to handle what I saw as my therapist's close relationship with his young daughter. It wasn't a jealous feeling, I used to ache because I wanted that closeness but knew I couldn't have it.
The experience has highlighted that I need to sort this out. I suppose I'm holding back because I'm wary of coping with all the feelings it might unleash.
Thanks again for your insight.
Gail
Posted by fallsfall on August 21, 2003, at 19:07:54
In reply to Re: therapist revelations, posted by Newcomer on August 21, 2003, at 18:04:45
If you had a good relationship with your old therapist, then I would recommend that you go back to him to work this out. (I would check to see the type of therapy that he's doing, though) It sounds like he wasn't CBT.
When I was looking for my new therapist, I interviewed a number of people. I asked one whether, since my transference was for my mother, I should choose a man or woman. He said "Choose a good therapist". He was the therapist I chose. I find it really interesting that the transference I have now is for my dad - not my mother. He has said that it really doesn't matter what the sex of the therapist is - that the transference will occur anyway.
Therapy can address the father-fixation type of problem. I would think that it could be done through transference. And this may very well be what was going on in your therapy.
This stuff can be pretty scary. You are seeing and changing pretty fundamental parts of you. I know that I need to do this - I don't feel like I have a choice. I am very much looking forward to life after therapy - I'm hoping it will be easier.
Posted by Rigby on August 22, 2003, at 12:40:45
In reply to Re: therapist revelations » Newcomer, posted by fallsfall on August 21, 2003, at 19:07:54
Hi There,
From my experience, one where I only recently really made a ton of headway through transference, I stuck w/ the same therapist. I quit a few times but never felt comfortable permanently quitting so I finally just decided to stay until I feel comfortable leaving (advice I got from a friend of a friend who is a therapist.)
I think the whole transference deal is like a lot of things in life: once you come clean, admit your feelings, discuss them with your therapist it *really* takes the edge off. I've found out only over the past few weeks and thanks to help from people here that if you just accept that it's transference, that you give in to the feelings, that you express them to the therapist it all deflates or it has for me.
So, although it's hard to say exactly you might want to give it a shot and go back to your therapist as Falls suggests, and work it through--I bet you will end up feeling a lot better for it. You cannot get away from feeling the level of deprivation you felt as a child but by feeling it and aknowleding it you can truly move forward.
Also, if your most intense issues are with your dad it really might be a more powerful experience to stick with the male therapist--harder but possibly the best choice. I know but the only way out is through, eh?
Best,
Rigby
Posted by Eggy on August 31, 2003, at 0:44:57
In reply to Re: therapist revelations, posted by Rigby on August 22, 2003, at 12:40:45
Are you saying if I am heartbroken because my therapist isn't my dad and I am spending way too much time hoping, wishing and thinking about him being my dad then I should tell him that? Wouldn't he see that as a dependency issue. I DO NOT want my therapist knowing I am dependant. (Like he doesn't already know but...you know what I mean). Because I do wish my dad was just like him. Better yet I wish my therapist would adopt me or marry me or hire me as a housekeeper or something!!!!
Posted by noa on September 1, 2003, at 9:42:07
In reply to Re: therapist revelations » Newcomer, posted by Penny on August 21, 2003, at 15:18:56
Like Newcomer, I've had the regressed transference, too, but my therapist was great in helping me with it--he was very accepting and we spent a lot of time exploring the feelings over time. He was also very gentle and patient about it, as I couldn't always tolerate the exploration, or could only talk about it in small amounts. He also is good at examining his own role in the here and now of our interactions, and he will "own", at his own initiative, how he might have contributed to a particular reaction I had during a session, etc.. He is not a CBT therapist--he seems to draw from various approaches, and probably leans toward the psychodynamic side, but not exclusively. He does use some CBT approaches, but it isn't CBT therapy with homework, etc. at all.
Even if one is in CBT treatment, it seems to me that it would be good to have a therapist who has both skills--CBT, and an awareness of how to deal with transference, and integrates the two, no? I think it's obvious from all the posts on this topic and similar topics, that transference happens. So even if a therapist doesn't use a therapy method that focuses primarily on the transference (like psychoanalysis), it seems like all therapists should be trained to recognize transference issues and deal with them in a way that defuses the embarrasment, etc. Otherwise, all that stuff is just going to get in the way of the goals of the CBT anyway.
But insurance companies love CBT because it supposedly can be done in a very time limited way. Addressing these transference issues adds time to the treatment.
Posted by Newcomer on September 1, 2003, at 10:47:21
In reply to Re: therapist revelations, posted by noa on September 1, 2003, at 9:42:07
I wish I found this site a lot earlier when I was struggling with the transference and feeling alone with it. It’s great to get all your different viewpoints. On an intellectual level, I know the best way to deal with transference is to go back to my therapist and work through it, but like Eggy I don’t want him to know - it’s too embarrassing for words. Despite that I’m feeling more motivated by being reminded it’s the best way and as Rigby says, the only way out is through.
Does anyone know about something called the Hoffman Process? It’s an 8 day intensive residential course that is supposed to deal very effectively with parental issues. After about 100 hrs of work you emerge dazed the other end having left behind the negative stuff from your childhood. I was thinking that might be a better option than longer term therapy for someone like me who looks for father figures everywhere.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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