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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by CrAzYmEd on May 29, 2010, at 11:08:55
In reply to Re: 5HT2A is good! » CrAzYmEd, posted by Conundrum on May 29, 2010, at 10:50:27
"Interesting thread. Albeit kind of useless. First of all a lot of studies are done with rats, and humans do react different. Second my own experience with prozac reflects what Brainbeard said. At low doses I feel motivated on fluoxetine. As the dose is increased I no longer want to eat. Something has changed with the 5 HT2C receptor. "
Sure, more 5HT can cause more 5HT2C agonism, counteracting some antagonism of the 5HT2C receptor, but in HUMANS acute and chronic dosing of prozac increases plasma dopamine levels.
Besides that your own subjective experience doesnt say much about dopamine or serotonine, like i said a higher dose can counteract some 5HT2C antagonism, however that doesnt mean that your dopamine levels are decreased. Just that they MAY be less then on a lower dose, also serotonine can cause emotional blunting and apathy (atleast ssri's can cause that) so this may also overpower any other benefits.
"Finally, wouldn't a true agonist cause people to hallucinate?"
No, lisuride is the proof that this isnt the case, the 5HT2A receptor can be activated in differend ways, there's a differend downstream effect with hallucogenics.Besides, i wouldnt call this thread useless.
Posted by Conundrum on May 29, 2010, at 11:20:32
In reply to Re: 5HT2A is good!, posted by CrAzYmEd on May 29, 2010, at 11:08:55
Well I agree that my subjective experiences are indeed different. When I *first* took prozac years ago it was awesome. I always felt good. If someone I know felt bad I recommended them taking it. I eventually stopped it since I thought I didn't need it. Bad call. Now any increase in serotonin makes me apathetic. So I'd say, yes, in a drug niave person it will probably increase dopamine along with norepinephrine via 5 HT2C antagonism. BTW prozac is a 5 HT2A antagonist according to Lilly's scientists, which about the same binding affinity as the 5HT2C receptor. There may be differences in the actual potency to block electrical signals, since there isn't much written about fluoxetine's actions at the 5HT2a receptor.
http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v27/n6/full/1395967a.html
Posted by CrAzYmEd on May 29, 2010, at 12:18:06
In reply to Re: 5HT2A is good! » CrAzYmEd, posted by Conundrum on May 29, 2010, at 11:20:32
I want to show you a few things wich i rather dont discuss on the public forum, if you could babblemail me or whatever that thing is called, would be awesome. (dunno if you can even email me, this forum system is weird).
Posted by Brainbeard on May 29, 2010, at 15:04:12
In reply to Re: Prozac, 5HT2C And The Trojan Horse In Lisuride, posted by CrAzYmEd on May 29, 2010, at 8:44:34
> "Anyhow, 5HT2A-agonism inhibits the benefits of both 5HT1A- and 5HT2C-agonism. "
>
> DO you have a source that 5HT2A agonism inhibits the beneficial effect of 5HT1A agonism?>id definatly would like to see some studies that it inhibits the positive effects of 5HT1A.
It's given in the study mentioned above (Gerard J Marek, Linda L Carpenter, Christopher J McDougle and Lawrence H Price: 'Synergistic Action of 5-HT2A Antagonists and Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors in Neuropsychiatric Disorders', in: Neuropsychopharmacology (2003) 28, 402412, link: http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v28/n2/full/1300057a.html). Quote:
'INTERACTIONS BETWEEN 5-HT2A AND 5-HT1A RECEPTORS
At a cellular level, activation of 5-HT2A and 5-HT1A receptors exerts depolarizing and hyperpolarizing effects, respectively, on cortical pyramidal cells (Araneda and Andrade, 1991; Tanaka and North, 1993; Ashby et al, 1994; Aghajanian and Marek, 1997). These interactions have been observed both under in vitro conditions and during in vivo recordings from the rodent medial prefrontal cortex. Similar interactions have also been observed at a behavioral level. For example, stimulation of 5-HT1A receptors suppresses head shakes in rats induced by hallucinogenic drugs, which activate 5-HT2A receptors (Arnt and Hyttel, 1989; Schreiber et al, 1995). Previous studies have demonstrated that systemic administration of 5-HT1A agonists can block head shakes induced by direct infusion of the hallucinogen 1-(2,5-dimethoxy-4-iodophenyl)-2-aminopropane (DOI) into the medial prefrontal cortex (Granhoff et al, 1992; Willins and Meltzer, 1997).
Evidence for opposing effects of activation of 5-HT2A and 5-HT1A receptors has also been obtained from a behavioral screen for antidepressant drugs, rats performing on a differential reinforcement of low rate 72-s (DRL 72-s) schedule (Marek et al, 1989a,1989b; Marek and Seiden, 1994; Jolly et al, 1999). This behavioral screen measures a cardinal feature of prefrontal cortical 'executive function,' that is, withholding inappropriate responses (Fuster, 1997). At an operational level, water-deprived animals in this paradigm must wait at least 72 s following the previous response in order to receive a reinforcer (water) for making a response. The efficacy of 5-HT antagonists in exerting an antidepressant-like response on this screen (increased reinforcement rate, decreased response rate, and a cohesive rightward shift in the inter-response time (IRT) histogram) is related to the selectivity of the antagonists for 5-HT2A relative to 5-HT1A receptors (Marek et al, 1989a; Marek and Seiden, 1994).'
There are no 'good guys' and 'bad guys'; there are several complex and intertwined mechanisms striving for a delicate balance.
Posted by Brainbeard on May 29, 2010, at 15:10:44
In reply to Brainbeard, babblemail me!, posted by CrAzYmEd on May 29, 2010, at 12:18:06
> I want to show you a few things wich i rather dont discuss on the public forum, if you could babblemail me or whatever that thing is called, would be awesome. (dunno if you can even email me, this forum system is weird).
Dude, have you got babblemail on? Your name doesn't have the babblemail link. You can email me at brainbeard [at] gmx.com (without the spaces, obviously).
Posted by Brainbeard on June 2, 2010, at 2:47:03
In reply to Re: Brainbeard, babblemail me!, posted by Brainbeard on May 29, 2010, at 15:10:44
Posted by CrAzYmEd on June 2, 2010, at 8:58:02
In reply to I have ordered lisuride (nm), posted by Brainbeard on June 2, 2010, at 2:47:03
Nice man! Keep us updated!
What other meds are on again? (that used to be in your sig i think but i accidenly turned that off).
Posted by Brainbeard on June 2, 2010, at 13:10:17
In reply to Re: I have ordered lisuride, posted by CrAzYmEd on June 2, 2010, at 8:58:02
> Nice man! Keep us updated!
> What other meds are on again? (that used to be in your sig i think but i accidenly turned that off).Erm, 125mg of sertraline (obn Zoloft), 20mg of pipamperone (Dipiperone), one quarter of a Deanxit pill (10mg melitracene + 0.5mg flupentixol), 0.3mg melatonin. Occasionally: methylphenidate (obn Ritalin) 10mg, 5-10mg oxazepam, 2.5-5mg diazepam.
Posted by g_g_g_unit on June 5, 2010, at 20:49:38
In reply to My Bloody Regimen, posted by Brainbeard on June 2, 2010, at 13:10:17
> Erm, 125mg of sertraline (obn Zoloft)this is the only SSRI i'm still interested in trying. are you finding that it has a more favourable side-effect profile to the others as far as cognition goes? i've read it's the least likely to have an impact on memory, etc.
Posted by SLS on June 6, 2010, at 0:21:24
In reply to Re: My Bloody Regimen » Brainbeard, posted by g_g_g_unit on June 5, 2010, at 20:49:38
>
> > Erm, 125mg of sertraline (obn Zoloft)
>
> this is the only SSRI i'm still interested in trying. are you finding that it has a more favourable side-effect profile to the others as far as cognition goes? i've read it's the least likely to have an impact on memory, etc.
Zoloft is the SSRI that produced the most "brain fog" for me. I was taking 200mg.
- Scott
Posted by g_g_g_unit on June 6, 2010, at 0:23:25
In reply to Re: My Bloody Regimen » g_g_g_unit, posted by SLS on June 6, 2010, at 0:21:24
>
>
>
> Zoloft is the SSRI that produced the most "brain fog" for me. I was taking 200mg.
>
>
> - Scottoh strange .. did the effect vary at different doses? which produced the least?
Posted by Conundrum on June 6, 2010, at 1:18:10
In reply to Re: My Bloody Regimen » g_g_g_unit, posted by SLS on June 6, 2010, at 0:21:24
Isn't 200mg the highest dose?
Posted by Brainbeard on June 6, 2010, at 1:19:56
In reply to Re: My Bloody Regimen » Brainbeard, posted by g_g_g_unit on June 5, 2010, at 20:49:38
>
> > Erm, 125mg of sertraline (obn Zoloft)
>
> this is the only SSRI i'm still interested in trying. are you finding that it has a more favourable side-effect profile to the others as far as cognition goes? i've read it's the least likely to have an impact on memory, etc.
>
>Sertraline doesn't produce any cognitive debilitation for me. In a study with elderly folks, it actually improved cognition. The SSRI's usually don't impair cognition much, if at all. When I was starting up fluvoxamine (Luvox), it made me terribly slow at work, but that disappeared once my brain got used to the drug.
Posted by Conundrum on June 6, 2010, at 1:22:11
In reply to Re: My Bloody Regimen, posted by g_g_g_unit on June 6, 2010, at 0:23:25
Other options are effexor and nefazodone for OCD. Might be less dulling.
Posted by g_g_g_unit on June 6, 2010, at 1:41:56
In reply to SSRI's Easy On The Ol' Cognition, posted by Brainbeard on June 6, 2010, at 1:19:56
>
> Sertraline doesn't produce any cognitive debilitation for me. In a study with elderly folks, it actually improved cognition. The SSRI's usually don't impair cognition much, if at all. When I was starting up fluvoxamine (Luvox), it made me terribly slow at work, but that disappeared once my brain got used to the drug.i guess i shouldn't been more patient, though i did give each SRI the requisite 8 weeks. Lexapro and Luvox, in particular, made me feel really foggy; Prozac was neutral, though the sleep disruption at 20mg produced more cognitive s/e's overall.
Posted by Conundrum on June 6, 2010, at 10:46:00
In reply to Re: SSRI's Easy On The Ol' Cognition » Brainbeard, posted by g_g_g_unit on June 6, 2010, at 1:41:56
Maybe 20mg prozac was too high? Many do well at 10 or even 5 mg.
Zoloft, I don't think it is as dulling as lexapro for most ppl.
Posted by SLS on June 8, 2010, at 6:05:52
In reply to Re: My Bloody Regimen, posted by g_g_g_unit on June 6, 2010, at 0:23:25
> >
> >
> >
> > Zoloft is the SSRI that produced the most "brain fog" for me. I was taking 200mg.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> oh strange .. did the effect vary at different doses? which produced the least?
I don't recall the brain fog as being dose-dependent. Perhaps my reaction is atypical.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 8, 2010, at 6:10:57
In reply to Re: My Bloody Regimen » SLS, posted by Conundrum on June 6, 2010, at 1:18:10
> Isn't 200mg the highest dose?
Supposedly. I am surprised by how infrequently people reach that dosage. Doctors seem to like 50-100mg. I would continue to increase the dosage of Zoloft to 200mg if it is being tolerated.
- Scott
Posted by Conundrum on June 8, 2010, at 9:33:52
In reply to Re: My Bloody Regimen » Conundrum, posted by SLS on June 8, 2010, at 6:10:57
Perhaps they are aware that too much serotonin is a bad thing and has a flattening effect on mood? Or maybe most patients just do well on 50-100 mg and there is no reason to increase it.
Posted by g_g_g_unit on June 8, 2010, at 10:06:00
In reply to Re: My Bloody Regimen » SLS, posted by Conundrum on June 8, 2010, at 9:33:52
> Perhaps they are aware that too much serotonin is a bad thing and has a flattening effect on mood? Or maybe most patients just do well on 50-100 mg and there is no reason to increase it.
i think you get more DRI at higher doses. im curious about Zoloft. i know someone who is seeing positive gains on just 25mgs. it sounds atypical as far as SSRI's go
Posted by Brainbeard on June 8, 2010, at 11:40:18
In reply to Re: My Bloody Regimen, posted by g_g_g_unit on June 8, 2010, at 10:06:00
The 'S' in 'SSRI' is a bit of a joke.
Prozac is a dopamine and noradrenaline disinhibitor.
Luvox is a potent sigma-1 agonist.
Zoloft is a DRI and also acts on sigma-1 receptors.
Celexa is an antihistaminergic.
Lexapro acts on sigma-1 receptors as well.
Paxil has antihistaminergic and anticholinergic properties and acts on dopamine in higher doses.'RSSRI' would have been a more appropiate name: ' R' for 'Relatively'...
How I love to go off-topic with you guys and gals.
Posted by Brainbeard on June 9, 2010, at 11:35:10
In reply to Truth Is, All SSRI's Are Atypical, posted by Brainbeard on June 8, 2010, at 11:40:18
The online pharmacy wasn't able to deliver my 'Dipergon' (=lisuride) pills since they were 'off the market'. They retransmitted the money. I would like to have known in advance wether my order would be available or not. Big thumb down for this firm. I'm not sure if I'm gonna try again. Maybe I'll just resort to good ol' buspirone for some 5HT1A-agonism.
Posted by Brainbeard on June 10, 2010, at 16:02:29
In reply to Getting On-Topic Again: My Lisuride Order Failed, posted by Brainbeard on June 9, 2010, at 11:35:10
I couldn't restrain myself and ordered another brand of lisuride that ought to be available. Brand name is 'Dopergin'. Sounds dopey, eh?
Posted by Sendow on June 10, 2010, at 16:30:03
In reply to Couldn't help myself and ordered this sh*t again, posted by Brainbeard on June 10, 2010, at 16:02:29
i know dopergin but never tried,i dont had much luck with dopamine agonist... something with Requip maybe.
wut dosage are you start on?
Posted by Brainbeard on June 10, 2010, at 16:50:39
In reply to Re: Couldn't help myself and ordered this sh*t again, posted by Sendow on June 10, 2010, at 16:30:03
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
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